Is Torment Damage Too Low?
Actually, after further investigation, I think the problem is that there are actually too few ways to apply stacks of Torment – unlike Bleeding, which many classes can apply tons of stacks, there are simply few ways to get Torment.
I think that maybe Torment could be added to the main hand Sword or Scepter auto-attack chains.
Also, it would be neat to add a stack or two of Torment to Mind Wrack or Diversion (maybe with a minor trait?)
(edited by ipan.4356)
Torment damage is fine, and the Mesmer torment application is incredibly powerful, ticking for over 1000 damage on a moving target while lasting upwards of 12 seconds.
Edit: Torment on sword auto chain…lolololol
What do you get significant stacks of Torment from though?
As far as I can tell, there’s only one skill that applies Torment, Illusionary Counter.
In addition to that, you can get a Sigil of Tormenting, which only applies a single stack of Torment (AoE, yes, but only one every 7 seconds).
You can also get Runes of Tormenting, but you then you are bound to only get those stacks (and it’s only 2) on a Heal.
I use both of these, and the thing is, if I were to make a “Torment Build”, I’d be screwed, simply because there aren’t enough options to apply Torment.
(edited by ipan.4356)
What do you get significant stacks of Torment from though?
From the scepter block, where else?
That’s my point – there’s but ONE skill in our entire repertoire that applies Torment – and it’s PASSIVE – it only works on a block, which is fine, I like the skill, but I’d also like an ATTACK that applies Torment.
You can’t really make a Torment based build, now can you? (Scepter 2 is on an 8 sec. CD)
Alternatively, Torment could be changed to stack in duration, like burning, rather than intensity, like bleeding.
Or, to put this another way entirely, Warriors have Impale (which adds 5 stacks of Torment on a 15 sec. CD), so why can’t Mesmer’s have a single stack of Torment added to an auto-attack chain?
Warriors also have bleed on auto-attack, thieves get poison on auto-attack.
Torment is a particularly Mesmerish and Necromancerish condition.
Having at least 1, if not 2, weapons that apply a single stack of Torment on auto-attack (it could even be a short duration stack, like 3-5 seconds) makes perfect sense.
And the weapons that it makes the most sense on are main hand Sword and Scepter.
If anything, torment is more of a thief condition due to 2 inherent abilities to proc it, versus only 1 for Warrior, Necromancer and Mesmer.
Our torment application is very strong, and supplemented with the sigil and rune can make for a decent condition build (I’m currently working on one myself).
Also, keep in mind the key to putting together a good condition build is to not focus on one condition too heavily due to the ease of that condition being cleansed.
But then it would make more sense for Torment to work like Burning – because if you can’t actually stack Torment up to 25, like you can with Bleeding and Confusion, then what’s the point in having a condition that stacks in intensity?
We will never get a full 25 stacks of Torment on a target because there simply aren’t enough skills that apply Torment, particularly active skills, like Impale. So it simply doesn’t make sense to treat Torment like a skill that stacks, such as Bleeding.
Raise it’s damage some, and make it a single stack, like Burning/Poison.
The other problem with that, and I know from experience because I use them, is that if you’re going to “supplement” Torment with Sigil of Tormenting and Runes of Tormenting, then you’re investing in Torment at the cost of ignoring other conditions – so it ought to be worthwhile, but it isn’t, for the simpler reason that we don’t have enough ways to apply it.
Or, to put it another way, in the current meta, who actually uses Sigil of Torment an Runes of Torment? Probably almost no one, except the terminally curious (like myself), because it has terrible roi compared to other options.
You have to consider what you’re giving up in addition to what you’re getting, and go “full Torment” isn’t as good as say, going full Confusion/Retaliation.
(edited by ipan.4356)
While we’re at it, let’s give a Phantasm a Torment on hit as well – like maybe the Swordsman or Defender.
You are trying to solve a problem that doesn’t exist. Torment is already strong as-is, and our ability to apply it is also strong.
<The Undead Lords>
Since 1994 – undeadlords.net
No it’s not.
How can you call having one skill (on an 8 second cd.), that is also a PASSIVE block, “strong”.
No it’s not.
How can you call having one skill (on an 8 second cd.), that is also a PASSIVE block, “strong”.
Because it hits like a truck.
<The Undead Lords>
Since 1994 – undeadlords.net
Well, my experience with it is mostly in PvP, where people who don’t clear that torment quickly and regularly die quickly and regularly. It’s basically 800 damage per second that can be applied nearly continuously, and forces the opponent to deal with it immediately or they are pretty much toast. Then you can just apply it again?
How is that not strong? It may not be as strong as Impale, but that skill is brokenly OP and we can’t expect other classes to compare to the Uberprofession.
It could be strong, if you were capable of applying as many stacks as the game allows.
It isn’t strong because there aren’t enough ways to apply it.
I realized, after making the OP, that there wasn’t a problem with the base damage – there was simply a problem with the fact that there aren’t enough ways to apply Torment.
The game allows for up to 25 stacks of Torment to be applied to a single target.
However, given the resources we have (Scepter 2 – Sigil of Torment – Runes of Torment) there is literally no way to ever apply that many stacks of Torment.
Second, Scepter 2 is merely a passive skill that is conditional – you can only apply those stacks of Torment if you are attacked. I’m not complaining about that skill, but rather the fact that we only have passive method of applying those stacks. The Warrior (and Thief, and Necro) at least have active attacks that can apply Torment when they want.
Warriors have a ranged attack that applies 5 stacks of Torment and Mesmer’s have a passive block that applies 5 stacks of Torment – which is better?
My point is that it is impossible to ‘spec’ into Torment. Even if you wanted to. Sigil of Tormenting and Runes of Tormenting, while good in themselves, are not helped by the fact that so few Mesmer skills apply Torment in any consistent fashion.
Yes, Scepter 2 is good – but you will never see anyone making a “Torment build” around it – because it’s not consistent and reliable enough to sacrifice everything else you could do just for Torment.
This isn’t the case for other conditions, particularly Bleed and Vulnerability. A condition Thief is pretty much a Death Blossom spammer – all Bleed. And Might/Vulnerability builds abound on every profession.
But where are the dedicated Tormenters?
Why is there a Rune of Tormenting and Sigil of Tormenting, when using them would mean sacrificing so much for so little? (no one takes a full Torment build for obvious reasons – it just doesn’t exceed that “threshold” of usability).
I think, of all the things that could be done to improve it, the simplest and most straightforward thing to do would be to add some more Torment application to the base skills of the Mesmer.
You don’t see anyone making a ‘torment build’ or a ‘bleed build’ or a ‘burn build’ or a ‘poison build’. Know why?
Because those builds are stupid and won’t work. They are completely ruined by any condition removal at all. The reason you don’t see any death blossom thieves is because it’s a horrible build. You aren’t meant to be able to stack 25 of a condition on any given target by yourself. That’s just how it works.
As alanis said, you’re complaining about a problem that doesn’t exist. I guarantee that nobody here is going to agree with you because you’re wrong. The torment block is incredibly powerful, you simply have wildly skewed expectations of how you think that conditions and skills should work.
(edited by Pyroatheist.9031)
Ipan, you do understand that because of how conditions work, more types of conditions are more valuable than more stacks of the same condition?
In fact, I sometimes run with a sigil of doom on my scepter just to help “hide” the torment from condition removal abilities.
Torment, like Confusion, isn’t something that can be readily stacked to 25 stacks for a reason — it would be grossly OP, even more so than the pre-nerf Confusion.
<The Undead Lords>
Since 1994 – undeadlords.net
No, it’s you guys who are wrong.
There’s something pretty simple here that you are missing.
A Bleed build is something that someone can spec into – for example, a Thief can go full condition build and apply tons of bleeds everywhere with DB and can even get both Sigils and Rune sets (several, in fact) that really compliment this.
Now, whether you think this is a terrible playstyle or not is irrelevant (it is kinda one note, and anything that direct usually has a ‘hard counter’), but the underlying point is that if someone wanted really powerful bleeds, at the expense of everything else, they can get it.
Now, I understand that Torment is essentially a Bleed, that does twice as much damage if the target is moving, forcing them to stand still for the duration of the Torment, immediately cleanse it, or take an enormous amount of damage.
Bleed builds (and Vulnerability builds, which may be even worse) can easily get up to 25 stacks, if you really concentrate on doing nothing else.
A Torment build cannot. Even if we accept that Torment is twice as powerful as bleed, then it should be easy to get up to 12 stacks consistently, or perhaps Torment should have 1/2 the duration (point is: give and take. For every advantage, there should be a disadvantage). You balance the relative power by taking one way, while giving another.
Furthermore, if someone really wanted to, taking the associated Rune sets and Sigils should make that particular ability really powerful – just as when I take Sigil of Battle and a Rune set that stacks ridiculous stacks of Might (such as Altruism/Fire) or sets that stack tons of bleed.
But you can’t do that with Torment.
Torment is a red-headed step child, and I understand why: it’s dangerous. Torment, potentially, could be incredibly OP, because as I pointed out, Torment is essentially a double-bleed (but only if the target is moving). Even if the target doesn’t move, it’s still just as powerful as a bleed.
But, those Rune sets do exist. And the Sigil does exist. But no one would use them in a serious build. Why? Because there isn’t quite enough Torment application in the weapon skills to warrant it.
Yes, I understand that there is a fine line where Torment would quickly become OP, but because of this it is seriously held back – due to fear it could be abused.
As is, it doesn’t quite reach that sweet spot where taking a full set of Runes of Tormenting AND a Sigil of Tormenting are worth the trade off based on other sets you could take that would give you a higher roi.
And therefore, Torment will simply be an odd thing that pops up now and again, but never something anyone seriously puts effort into.
Well, you’re entitled to your own opinion. Lets just agree to disagree, shall we?
Here’s an even better idea:
Balance Torment by removing all damage while standing still.
(and add some Torment to our base skills)
Here’s an even better idea:
Balance Torment by removing all damage while standing still.
(and add some Torment to our base skills)
You are trying to solve a problem that doesn’t exist.
<The Undead Lords>
Since 1994 – undeadlords.net
Let me see if I can reduce my points to something even simpler:
A Rune set acts as a multiplier for certain conditions, boons, or other modifiers in the game. For example, if I use a full set of Krait, then my bleeds are going to be insane. If I use a ton of Might, then Fire and/or Altruism (and Battle sigil) are really good – all of these will multiply the boon or condition I use.
Runes of Tormenting and Sigil of Tormenting are hardly useful, because there is so little base Torment to work with in the first place.
I also admit that maybe the problem is actually the Runes and not the other way around. For example, instead of Torment duration, it could increase Torment damage.
However, and I use Impale as evidence, I’d also point out that the Mesmer has no active means of applying Torment (aside from Sigil of Torment and 6 Runes of Tormenting, which are available to everyone) in the same manner.
If anything, you’d think Torment is especially suited to a Mesmer. But, envy aside, the point is, if Impale is ok for a Warrior, then why can’t we get some kind of low key Torment on auto-attack (if Imaple applies 5 every 15, then why not 1 per chain for Mesmers, which probably works out to something similar to 5/15?)
These stacks could even have a much lower duration if necessary.
Why are you arguing that a little extra Torment is OP for Mesmer’s (so that using Runes/Sigil of Torment multiplies it properly) but it’s perfectly ok for a Warrior?
See, I’d actually consider using those Runes and Sigil on a Sword/Sword Warrior, but not on a Mesmer.
Why?
Do any of you use a full set of Runes of Tormenting and a Sigil of Tormenting?
Anyone at all? I’d love to see a link to your build.
I ran this build:
And the problem was that the Runes of Torment and the Sigil of Tormenting didn’t multiply the effects of Torment enough.
What I lost out on, by taking these Runes and Sigil in place of something else, wasn’t made up by any increases in Torment, and the reason is that there simply isn’t enough Torment in the base build to multiply.
That’s how Runes work – if I go full Krait on a bleed build, then I multiply all the bleeding skills I have.
If I go full set of Torment Runes, I only have ONE skill that applies Torment, so the multiplier isn’t there.
Get it now?
Here’s what I propose:
Change Torment so that it does NO damage while standing still.
Add Torment to the following skills:
Scepter 1 – 1 stack of Torment (2 sec. duration) on the second hit. (this would mean that without traits or any bonuses to Torment duration, auto-attacking should maintain exactly 1 stack of Torment at all times, since the entire duration of the auto-attack chain is listed as 2 seconds – with traits and Runes, this could be caused to actually begin to slowly stack Torment)
Blurred Frenzy – The final hit adds 2 stacks of Torment (3 sec.)
Let me see if I can reduce my points to something even simpler:
If you stopped thinking that people who disagree with you merely don’t understand, you might get some less smart-kitten responses.
Runes of Tormenting and Sigil of Tormenting are hardly useful, because there is so little base Torment to work with in the first place.
Sigil of Tormenting is already rather strong in WvW, and I use it on two weapon sets on my Necro. I’d consider them on my Mesmer, but Energy is just too OP to give up.
Rune of Tormenting would be used a ton more often if the 6p bonus had a larger AoE (its like 120 around the caster currently). I’d for certain use it on both my Necro and Mesmer if it had an aoe more like 360.
If anything, you’d think Torment is especially suited to a Mesmer. But, envy aside, the point is, if Impale is ok for a Warrior, then why can’t we get some kind of low key Torment on auto-attack (if Imaple applies 5 every 15, then why not 1 per chain for Mesmers, which probably works out to something similar to 5/15?)
Illusionary Counter is a much stronger ability than Impale.
Why are you arguing that a little extra Torment is OP for Mesmer’s (so that using Runes/Sigil of Torment multiplies it properly) but it’s perfectly ok for a Warrior?
Nobody is arguing that.
<The Undead Lords>
Since 1994 – undeadlords.net
The other way to do it would be to modify the Runes and Sigils as follows:
Sigil of Tormenting: 30% chance to trigger AoE Torment on critical, CD 4 sec.
Superior Rune of Tormenting:
2: Increase Torment damage by 10%
4: 30% chance to apply Torment (10 sec) on hit (15 sec. cd)
6: Apply 3 stacks of Torment on Heal (15 sec. CD)
Torment is fine. Unlike other conditions, it has the blessing of not being insanely spammable, which is a good thing because it keeps you from just spamming your skills to stack up infinitely high numbers of condis. Please, please do not ever suggest to put Torment on Sword auto again, though…
For the record: I never said Scepter 2 was weak – I pointed out that it was passive, and as it’s the ONLY skill we have the applies Torment, we have no way of actively applying it with an attack – but other professions DO (Shadow Strike, Impale, Tainted Shackles)
See, I’d actually consider using those Runes and Sigil on a Sword/Sword Warrior, but not on a Mesmer.
Why?
Because you are choosing to not play a Warrior.
Ok sarcasm aside, mesmer has as good a chance at applying torment as a warrior. Mesmers can apply 5 stacks immediately, every 10 seconds base. Warrior can every 15 seconds. That’s quite a difference right there. Torment also isn’t applied immediately as I understand it. Opponent gets 2 stacks immediately then up to the full five stacks once the rip skill becomes available.
Also, the scepter block is as equally dodge-able as the impale projectile. Both have counter play.
Remember when torment runes were first introduced, they were bugged and had no internal CD? 2 stacks on every heal, AoE. That was powerful, no matter what class you ran, and it was too powerful, for a good reason. Mesmer was gifted the ability by Anet to have excellent access to this amazing condition, and we have some nice sigils and runes to play with to augment it.
Like I said I have a build that works really well in WvW using torment runes and a sigil (poison on other weapon set). I’ll eventually post it but I’m not ready yet. In a balanced condition build they work really well. The build you posted there is not a balanced condition build.
Just stop responding. I think it’s obvious that this person is beyond hope.
He just want to say that we only have one way to apply torment and it’s conditional to block. That it would be great to have an active (lower number stack), which I agree. If you’re not 1v1, you can’t really choose who you want to apply torment.
Illusionary counter does up to 9K damagr over its duration, and that is in spvp, where stats are lower.
Its our most damaging skill by itself, really, it doesnt need a buff :P.
What exactly does 25 illusions change about it?
Oh, and its not a passive block. A passive block is the guardian virtue that gives them aegis every once in a while. Or in mmos where you automatically have a chance to block everything.
Illusionary counter is an active block, we have to qctivate it.
Warning: link may contain traces of awesome.
Lyssa’s Grimoire – a guide every Mesmer should read.
(edited by Alissah.9281)
Someone recently said that Sigil of Torment is still broken and has no ICD. Can anyone confirm?
Also I love when my Torment hits and my opponent takes 12k damage. Thieves lolol.
Angry Intent [AI] | Yak’s Bend |
Too low? No way, my scepter #2 hits for 11k – 14k depending on corruption stacks. It’s my single strongest attack by a huge margin.
Primacy @ Zuluhed (WoW, retired resto shaman)
Theory @ Azphel (Aion, retired control spiritmaster)
Torment block is crazy strong. If anything it could do with a duration decrease.
Also, the last thing we want in this game is more ways to auto-attack damaging conditions.
Someone recently said that Sigil of Torment is still broken and has no ICD. Can anyone confirm?
Also I love when my Torment hits and my opponent takes 12k damage. Thieves lolol.
It’s not that it doesn’t have an ICD, it does, at 7 seconds. It just doesn’t share its ICD with other on swap/on crit sigils, like most do.
Torment is a stupid condition anyway. It’s just another way to have more DoT.
A condition’s damage that would rely on the amount of yards being ran would be much better. Would at least give condition builds a good way to keep enemies with them.
Nope. Torment is meant to be weaker than bleed if the target isn’t moving (lol good thing this game isn’t action combat) and 5 stacks every 12 seconds with a block is op.
yea to be perfectly honest i kind of agree with what alot of people are saying here… 5 stacks of torment + block + clone generation + blind + built in skill damage + the fact that this skill can be traited with IC and Scepter cooldown, although its on a pretty low cooldown already… not to mention that it works in stealth (should probably be fixed). This is one of the biggest reasons i run the scepter in condi damage spec. Its absolutely incredible.
You can’t get tunnel vision when it comes to condi’s. Getting 25 stacks of bleed or torment in no way shape or form should be your goal, as single condi sources are easily removed. You have to look at the overall damage ALL of your conditions are doing, and trying to spread the sources as many ways as possible (which the mesmer does naturally via staff, chaos storm/armor, etc).
The only argument against the scepter (and its a glaringly terrible flaw with the weapon) is its discustingly aweful auto attack.
[GoF] Smiks – Guardian/Necro
Thief/Mesmer Alts