Guild Wars 2

Hello, like most mesmers I’ve been using the good old greatsword for quite a while now and I’m getting a bit bored with it. Lately I’ve been thinking of changing and going for a full condition damage build with a staff. So my main concern is, should i bother wasting 15gold on condition damage gear?
I currently Have a full exotic set with power, precision and critical damage and I was wondering if you guys think that that exotic stat is the best (when it comes to staves) or should I aim for something else?

@Teulius, condition dmg for spvp and wvwvw is absolutley viable. I have not run a condition build in wvwvw but have a guildmate who play condition support mesmer in my guildteam and she is extremley valuable for the group.

For spvp I personaly experement with a shatter cat condition build and so far the ressult been wery possetive.

My feeling thu is that burst condition hybrid might be a stronger area than we beleved so far. Its a area I just started to brefly explore but when my might stacks reach 25 my bleed is 750~ stack, that and confusion ontop on the normal burst 15-20+ k burst is a killer in wvwvw.

For pve im not sure you will feel as comfortable thu if you go full condition it can tick high but generaly you kill slower, up to you.

Hope this help a little
/Osicat.

I’m running a 0/20/30/0/20 build with staff/scepter+focus cond dmg/support build and it’s a blast. Sure, you won’t kill anything fast but you have the thoughness to make up for it.

PvE wise, you’re there to help your allies survive and you deal a fair amount of dmg while tanking quite a bit. PvP wise, you’re much better off in a group than alone but you can handle mostly everything that’s thrown at you, provided you’re a little careful.

Oh and a word of warning, Osicat’s famous build got majorly buffed last patch while the cond dmg/thoughness build got kinda neutered thanks to the nerf to illusionary membrane. Think about it.

http://www.youtube.com/kyliad

Confusion in WvW. Channel has video’s on the actual build, as well as pleanty of videos of the build in action with 1v1, 1vX and group play.

As a condition build you cannot expect to kill things quickly (except with Confusion in WvW). What condition builds are good at is killing the enemy slowly but surely while keeping yourself very well protected through high Toughness, Clone spam, the Staff’s excellent defensive skills and (optional, but IMO very effective) stealth.

IMO getting lots of stealth (and Prismatic Understanding) synergises very well with condition builds, because conditions continue to tick and you should also have Staff Clones out to stack more conditions and also muddle things up a bit when you reappear.

I used to run a condition-staff build but honestly, it just stacks conditions too slowly most of the time. There isn’t really a good offset either for condition damage (i used to use scepter/pistol) The benefit is that you’re pretty tanky so its hard to kill you. Downsides tho are your shatters do alot less damage, and fights in general take alot longer to kill someone. If someone wants to run from you, its not too difficult for them to do so either (general mesmer problem, but worse for a slow damaging condition build). sPvP of course.

I use a typical glass cannon shatter build now like most people. Its bit more risky (less survival), but generally alot more rewarding.

I think if shattering clones triggered traits like debilitating dissipation or confusing combatants, then a condition build would be pretty good.

I wonder if condition really does kill slower though or is it just a psychological thing. Seeing your enemy’s bar go down gradually versus seeing it go down a large amount in intervals might make you think the burst damage is faster. Has anyone timed it?

Condition is slower to start off, but once you get those higher stacks of bleed, and combine it with burning and the fact that you’re beginning to hit harder with increasing vulnerability, you can burn down people without them realizing they’re in trouble, unless they’re paying close attention to their condition icons (I have seen people who very smartly back off when I get a few condition stacks on them).

But that’s mostly in WvW where you have tons of space to fight and can kite slower classes. In sPVP the staff isn’t as effective as a greatsword or sword/pistol combo, UNLESS you are running a confusion build where you’ve got a lot of +condition damage stats stacked in your build.

Confusion builds really show how condition can be effective in sPVP and WvW (which is what I run with). People will literally kill themselves by attacking/autoattacking before they realize they need to either cleanse themselves first or stop attacking for a few seconds to let the confusion wear off.

Mesmer condition builds might not stack conditions as quickly as some other builds, but it certainly isn’t slow. Remember that it’s not just Winds of Chaos, it’s also three Staff Clones and Illusionary Elasticity (effectively doubling WoC’s effect when dueling).

Confusion is mostly useful in WvW, but even in sPvP it is nothing to sniff at. Against builds that spam condition removal, a well-timed Confusion can be key to bringing them down.

In condition builds using staff, is sword + pistol with condition/precision stats viable or must one drop sword/pistol and go scepter/torch?

In a condition build your primary weapon is always the Staff, since it is our only weapon that can effectively stack conditions. Your second weapon set is purely to support the Staff.

With that in mind what you use for your second weapon set is relatively unimportant, almost anything can be useful in some way when DPS is out of the equation.

Sword + Pistol is good because it gives you mass boon stripping, invulnerability, a very damaging Phantasm (iDuelist can really stack those Bleeds) and two skills to stop your opponents from running.

Scepter and Torch gives you a potent Confusion burst and a low-CD stealth: it may sound like a poor deal compared to Sword + Pistol, but IMO the stealth is worth a lot and the Confusion burst can win a duel for you if used well.

i just wish confusion would hit better in spvp like it does in WvW ;/

Lordryux.9785:

i just wish confusion would hit better in spvp like it does in WvW ;/

It’s pretty much OP in WvW, especially if you also eat +condition duration food and such. Thieves in WvW are laughable with a good Confusion condition spec.

@Embolism, agreed. Even my burst spec when it stack up might sens patch is poison to thiefs when a cry x4 apply confuson, dont even dare to think about what you do to the poor things mate

/Osicat

Xavi.6591:

In condition builds using staff, is sword + pistol with condition/precision stats viable or must one drop sword/pistol and go scepter/torch?

As Embolism said, your secondary weapon(s) can be for whatever you feel. I generally use it for 1.) burst and 2.) utility. I usually use Scepter + X depending on what I’m doing, and use the #3 ability + F2 to stack Confusion as my burst. Alternatively, Sword #2 + F1 still provides a lot of pop, even if you’re not built to maximize it. It also works great as a sort of surprise tactic if your opponent is lulled to sleep a bit trying to work through your Staff play.

if you want a condition build you should go with rabid and that is from dungeon rewards. a crit/power mes outdamages any condition builds by quite a lot but since you’re not squishy on one i actually prefer it over GS power mesmers.

He ya no… at 220 + per tic of bleed per second, 1k burning per second, and 500ish poison damage per sec while still having 2500+ power… (screw crit @ 4%)… People dies real fast…. at 5 bleeds im doing 1k per sec.. 10 2k per sec… it’s death coming… fast. Oh and cant forget the average 3+ stacks of confusion doing 2k + damage…. pain much pain.

Don’t forget that conditions aren’t mitigated by armor/toughness… only defense is cleansing and high health pools.

sinican.9250:

He ya no… at 220 + per tic of bleed per second, 1k burning per second, and 500ish poison damage per sec while still having 2500+ power… (screw crit @ 4%)… People dies real fast…. at 5 bleeds im doing 1k per sec.. 10 2k per sec… it’s death coming… fast.

It takes a while to build up to that level of condition DPS. Conversely a shatter/GS mesmer will unload a lot of damage pretty quick (GS4, GS2, dodge, F1).

Also don’t underestimate crits. You get 50% more dmg without trying on a crit. Most people run with +60% so now you are at +110% dmg on crit. If you combine that with a 45% crit rate the result is a 49.5% overall DPS boost. That’s significant. (Reference http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Critical_hit if you are confused by the math)

Once you hit a certain power, you’ll get more bang by adding crit chance over more power.

juno.1840:

sinican.9250:

He ya no… at 220 + per tic of bleed per second, 1k burning per second, and 500ish poison damage per sec while still having 2500+ power… (screw crit @ 4%)… People dies real fast…. at 5 bleeds im doing 1k per sec.. 10 2k per sec… it’s death coming… fast.

It takes a while to build up to that level of condition DPS. Conversely a shatter/GS mesmer will unload a lot of damage pretty quick (GS4, GS2, dodge, F1).

Also don’t underestimate crits. You get 50% more dmg without trying on a crit. Most people run with +60% so now you are at +110% dmg on crit. If you combine that with a 45% crit rate the result is a 49.5% overall DPS boost. That’s significant. (Reference http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Critical_hit if you are confused by the math)

Once you hit a certain power, you’ll get more bang by adding crit chance over more power.

From that wikki… what you are forgetting is “Condition damage such as bleed and poison cannot inflict critical hits.” In other words crit is useless for a condition build because the majority of the damage is not direct damage and it also is unmitigated by armor/toughness.

Additionally getting a single stack of burning/poison and 5-10 bleeds + 3 confusions takes very very little setup… That’s why I didn’t talk about 25 stacks or bleeding or 6+ confusion because those are possible but unreliable and usually do take time to build.

Crit damage is indeed quite useless for condition builds (not completely though, as you do deal a bit of direct damage still). Crit chance however is quite important for proccing Sharper Images and maybe Sigil of Earth.

Embolism.8106:

Crit damage is indeed quite useless for condition builds (not completely though, as you do deal a bit of direct damage still). Crit chance however is quite important for procing Sharper Images and maybe Sigil of Earth.

Right but instead of focusing on precision my points were more valuable in condition/vit/power… And understanding that I have basically no crit… 24% when fully buffed, I don’t use on crit proc traits/skills/sigils/etc. I don’t feel as though I need the crit or that I’ve lost out on anything either because my conditions hit like a truck, and I know they are going to hit like that on a fully armored person the same as a clothy without having to depend on rng.

Answer is yes although it may disappoint you to know that greatsword is you best bleed weapon.

Staff is still solid you just won’t stack as many bleeds. Its probably best for a hybrid bleed and confusion or for pure confusion builds (the latter utilizing carrion or shamans amulet).

djtool.8372:

Answer is yes although it may disappoint you to know that greatsword is you best bleed weapon.

Staff is still solid you just won’t stack as many bleeds. Its probably best for a hybrid bleed and confusion or for pure confusion builds (the latter utilizing carrion or shamans amulet).

Between chaos storm, chaos armor, staff dbl bounce, clones, weapon swap to sword pistol… every condition hits. For the most part bleed is rather weak except that it stacks thus allowing up to 25 stacks to tic… vs the other are static duration/refreshed. GS is crap for applying conditions :/

Oh and cant forget about all the retaliation available to this build via combo fields that we can self synergise with.

sinican.9250:

juno.1840:

sinican.9250:

He ya no… at 220 + per tic of bleed per second, 1k burning per second, and 500ish poison damage per sec while still having 2500+ power… (screw crit @ 4%)… People dies real fast…. at 5 bleeds im doing 1k per sec.. 10 2k per sec… it’s death coming… fast.

It takes a while to build up to that level of condition DPS. Conversely a shatter/GS mesmer will unload a lot of damage pretty quick (GS4, GS2, dodge, F1).

Also don’t underestimate crits. You get 50% more dmg without trying on a crit. Most people run with +60% so now you are at +110% dmg on crit. If you combine that with a 45% crit rate the result is a 49.5% overall DPS boost. That’s significant. (Reference http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Critical_hit if you are confused by the math)

Once you hit a certain power, you’ll get more bang by adding crit chance over more power.

From that wikki… what you are forgetting is “Condition damage such as bleed and poison cannot inflict critical hits.” In other words crit is useless for a condition build because the majority of the damage is not direct damage and it also is unmitigated by armor/toughness.

Additionally getting a single stack of burning/poison and 5-10 bleeds + 3 confusions takes very very little setup… That’s why I didn’t talk about 25 stacks or bleeding or 6+ confusion because those are possible but unreliable and usually do take time to build.

No I was referring to your comment that as a condi-build you are doing more damage than a GS Power build. My example shows how crit on a GS/shatter build is quite powerful compared to conditions and that your conditions take some time to establish.

The crit calcs are for direct dmg.

juno.1840:

sinican.9250:

juno.1840:

sinican.9250:

He ya no… at 220 + per tic of bleed per second, 1k burning per second, and 500ish poison damage per sec while still having 2500+ power… (screw crit @ 4%)… People dies real fast…. at 5 bleeds im doing 1k per sec.. 10 2k per sec… it’s death coming… fast.

It takes a while to build up to that level of condition DPS. Conversely a shatter/GS mesmer will unload a lot of damage pretty quick (GS4, GS2, dodge, F1).

Also don’t underestimate crits. You get 50% more dmg without trying on a crit. Most people run with +60% so now you are at +110% dmg on crit. If you combine that with a 45% crit rate the result is a 49.5% overall DPS boost. That’s significant. (Reference http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Critical_hit if you are confused by the math)

Once you hit a certain power, you’ll get more bang by adding crit chance over more power.

From that wikki… what you are forgetting is “Condition damage such as bleed and poison cannot inflict critical hits.” In other words crit is useless for a condition build because the majority of the damage is not direct damage and it also is unmitigated by armor/toughness.

Additionally getting a single stack of burning/poison and 5-10 bleeds + 3 confusions takes very very little setup… That’s why I didn’t talk about 25 stacks or bleeding or 6+ confusion because those are possible but unreliable and usually do take time to build.

No I was referring to your comment that as a condi-build you are doing more damage than a GS Power build. My example shows how crit on a GS/shatter build is quite powerful compared to conditions and that your conditions take some time to establish.

Condition stacking takes no more time than a burst combo. Your main and pretty much only reliable damage source is direct damage which can be mitigated and dodged. My damage comes from consistent direct damage and 5 other sources that cannot be mitigated or dodged that tic every second not once ever 2-3 seconds.

is damage everything? I think a crit/power build can do more dps additionally with a burst that is more reliable than a confusion burst. BUT
1. the damage is comparable
2. condition builds are WAY harder to take down.

imo condition damage is very viable in every situation.

grimmson.9154:

is damage everything? I think a crit/power build can do more dps additionally with a burst that is more reliable than a confusion burst. BUT
1. the damage is comparable
2. condition builds are WAY harder to take down.

imo condition damage is very viable in every situation.

I am not sure how the necro or ele plays but as far as conditions go, mesmer has access to them all relatively easy. Burst is nice, but if you can’t single burst someone either because they countered something or they are heavily armored high health, you don’t have much to do while waiting for your next real burst. On my warrior I also tried a condition build, too limited, burst through power/crit is definitely the way to go.

You are absolutely right with your second point, and I think this is what makes the difference for me when pve or pvp. Condition builds; due the lack of needing crit, allows focus into vit/toughness which works for health/healing/mitigation so yeah, usually much more difficult to down.

@sinican

Greatsword will net you 13-17 stacks of bleed when set up to do it. This is why you must decide what “condition damage” means to you. If he wants big bleed stacks greatsword is his best choice.

Retaliation is great when you have the toughness and/or vitality to support it. You only get it with choas storm and you only max that by selecting the appropriate trait in dueling. If retal is important to the OP he should get it from traiting cry of frustration as that is the best source for it.

Chaos storm’s conditions are nice but fleeting. Its value lies in its boons and the ease in which it supplies another chaos armor.

djtool, i get quire easily get about 15 stacks of bleed as well on my stack between sharper imaigne +me and my 3 staff clones spamming wind of chaos (about 45-50 crit rate), and i get a little burn on top of that too consistently, add some poison weakness and chilled together with daze once in a while from chaos storm, or even confusion, cripple and blind from chaos armor if they try hit me… AND i put boons all the time on me and/or my allies too… so how did you say gs was better condition weapon again?

GummiBear.2756:

djtool, i get quire easily get about 15 stacks of bleed as well on my stack between sharper imaigne +me and my 3 staff clones spamming wind of chaos (about 45-50 crit rate), and i get a little burn on top of that too consistently, add some poison weakness and chilled together with daze once in a while from chaos storm, or even confusion, cripple and blind from chaos armor if they try hit me… AND i put boons all the time on me and/or my allies too… so how did you say gs was better condition weapon again?

^^^
This

I’ve been trying out GS/Sword+pistol lately. Putting sigil of earth in my GS. Same set up as the shatter cat build with a few traits change.

I tested Staff/Sword+pistol first with the same set up and traits.

What i noticed is, in WvW, with GS, you attack faster, your clones attack faster. Bleeds are just all over the place. I get access to cripple as well and burst when i needed to.

Using the Staff o GS, on 1v2 or 1v3 scenarios, with opponents that don’t know what hit them, it don’t matter. But against those that knows what they’re doing, they know when to reset the fight, thats when being more offensive is just the way to go for me.

Call it playstyle difference if you must, but relying on condition damage alone without power to back it up is just too slow for my taste, specially when you’ve been playing with the shatter cat build. What’s new is, the GS 5 interrupt. It’s quite handy, and so useful in situations where i need it, as much as I hate to admit it.

Unless you’re running Glamour build with condition damage, then yeah, Staff is the way to go there.

The problem is the defensive side. Staff is just too valuable when encountering those pesky thieves. So it’s all playstyle and role dependent and which people you party with.

sinican.9250:

GummiBear.2756:

djtool, i get quire easily get about 15 stacks of bleed as well on my stack between sharper imaigne +me and my 3 staff clones spamming wind of chaos (about 45-50 crit rate), and i get a little burn on top of that too consistently, add some poison weakness and chilled together with daze once in a while from chaos storm, or even confusion, cripple and blind from chaos armor if they try hit me… AND i put boons all the time on me and/or my allies too… so how did you say gs was better condition weapon again?

^^^
This

Doubly QFT. Not to mention that the Greatsword has that useless skill (Greatsword 3). Whereas all staff skills are useful.

Why would I want a skill that not only self-roots me, but also does terrible damage? Stripping a single boon seems a poor trade-off for the positional disadvantage I gain when I’m self-rooted for that second and a half or so. Sure it’s only a second or two, but 2 seconds is an ETERNITY in sPVP.