Guild Wars 2

Soccergirl.5734:

Aveneo.2068:

Mesmer too easy to play? That one would definitely go to Warrior and Thief. Warrior can just jump in and stunhammer you to death or 100b while shouting like a moose in heat; and usually just gets away without a scratch becomes impossible to catch. Thief just C&D+backstab you for all your health and remains invisible for the entire duration with equal means of getting away afterwards.

So please don’t say Mesmer having it easy just because you were killed by one. A good Mesmer actually has to work really hard for their kills, unlike easymode GS/HA Warrior and DD Thief in my opinion.

Yea right, I’ve been dueling with the 20/20/30 pu builds in pvp and they’re probably the easiest to fight with amongst all of the classes I’ve played.

Now d/d ele or power ranger or shatter mesmer (but let’s be honest, out of the entire mesmer community maybe 5% IF THAT run shatter builds because pu is so broken and easy to play and get kills with), that’s working hard for your kills.

Well, I constantly get my kitten handed to me by every Thief or Warrior in WvW and have to work really hard to keep myself out of harms way. I currently run a (zerker) Phantasm build even with that I’m often not even able to take enough health off a Warrior before they passively regenerate it back up and I can’t stop them because conditions like my cripple just won’t stick.

And Thief has a field day as they can just use their Steal-C&D-backstab macro from up to 1200-1500 range and I’m dead on the floor before I can even see them. And even if I see them coming, I can’t summon my phantasms because they need a target and the Thief is invisible 90% of the time and can reset the fight whenever he wants while all my skills are still on cd.

So it sounds to me that people only have an issue with this PU build because it is apparently very potent and easy to use, but that does not make the entire Mesmer class easy to play when my Phantasm build can’t do anything to stop a Warrior or Thief from killing me and then happily get away without any issues.

That was what I was trying to say. Just because someone got killed by a specific Mesmer build does not mean the entire class is easy to use.

Usagi.4835:

Pyroatheist.9031:

Usagi.4835:

Considering how passive PU condi mesmers are, I don’t see how you could say there’s a high skill cap on it. All you do is chain stealth and dodge more or less.

See, this is exactly what I’m talking about.

Can I run a PU build, spam stealth, dodge aimlessly, and win? Sure, but I can only win against players with incredibly low skill that have hardly any idea of the concept of counter play.

It doesn’t take skill to steamroll bad players with a PU build. The problem is that then those bad players that got steamrolled come to the forums and complain because they think that PU is overpowered and without skill.

Sorry, that’s not how it works. You got steamrolled without effort because you’re bad. PU takes skill against good players, and takes no skill against poor players. The whining on the forums about PU simply serves as a highly effective classification method for determining those players with skill, and those without.

@suedetooth: Well said.

I hope you don’t mean me when you say “you’re bad”. I usually look to you as being one of the foremost mesmer experts in these subforums and you’re being pretty aggressive about it. :/

Note I didn’t say it was overpowered, but it is very strong. The problem is that it’s now erring on the side of overpowered because of, what I think, is good damage/pressure and good sustain/disengage, which isn’t even needed because PU mesmers have so much stealth, they just reposition for the next condi burst.

ALL builds need skill against good players, not just PU. And it was kind of redundant to ask people to check their combat logs (if you’re referring to PU condi mesmers), since condi ticks don’t show up there which I’m sure you know.

It’s kind of silly to also claim that whining on the forums is a good metric for separating the good and bad players; just because you don’t agree, there’s no need to invalidate someone else’s opinion.

Note what you actually said. You didn’t say it was overpowered. You didn’t say it was very strong either. In fact, both of those claims would have been better to make than what you said.

You said ‘All you do is chain stealth and dodge, more or less’. That statement simply would not be made by anyone that had either played against a PU Mesmer skillfully, or had played a PU Mesmer skillfully.

That is the basis for the judgement calls I make. If someone is actually skillfull, then a PU Mesmer will be forced to do more than ‘chain stealth and dodge’. If the Mesmer literally just ‘chained stealth and dodged’ and they beat you, then I have no option but to assume a lack of skill. If you beat them when they did that, then what are you complaining about?

That’s why whining on the forum is a good metric. The good players have a different experience than the bad players by the simple fact of being good, and that different experience leads to little, if any, whining.

You said yourself ‘all builds need skill against good players’. Well then, what’s the issue here? If all builds need skill, then why the complaints about PU? I see lots of people complaining about hambow warriors, but as far as I’m concerned, hambow needs more skill than most builds in the game to effectively beat a Mesmer, so I don’t whine.

I can’t think of a single build in this game that is whine-worthy. No build totally lacks counter play, no build can’t be beaten. All builds have strengths and weaknesses. I understand this, I play knowing this, and so I never ever whine, and you can look through my post history to confirm that. Never whining myself, I am infinitely critical of all those who do whine.

As far as that combat log comment goes, condition ticks don’t show up of course, but the point that poster made is sound.

Usagi.4835:

Note I didn’t say it was overpowered, but it is very strong.

There is nothing inherently ‘strong’ in a PU build. The build’s ‘strength’ is determined by the skill level/ actions of the opponent.

Usagi.4835:

The problem is that it’s now erring on the side of overpowered because of, what I think, is good damage/pressure and good sustain/disengage, which isn’t even needed because PU mesmers have so much stealth, they just reposition for the next condi burst.

What condition burst? Can you please elaborate? Does PU “good damage/pressure and good sustain/disengage” apply to dolyaks? Do dolyaks kill less clones and thereby feel less pressured by PU Mez? Are dolyaks OP?

Usagi.4835:

ALL builds need skill against good players, not just PU. And it was kind of redundant to ask people to check their combat logs (if you’re referring to PU condi mesmers), since condi ticks don’t show up there which I’m sure you know.

Why was it redundant? Did I ask more than once? Do you know how PU Mez ‘condi ticks’ are applied?

void sendopponent2forums() {
// the “if” clause: PU is too easy to play
if (PU requires no skill ){
// the “then” clause: opponent is less-skilled
opponent activates skills as they come off cool-down—;
}
}

Is Pyroatheist a programmer?

Usagi.4835:

It’s kind of silly to also claim that whining on the forums is a good metric for separating the good and bad players; just because you don’t agree, there’s no need to invalidate someone else’s opinion.

If I don’t agree that whining on the forums is good, am I invalidating your opinion?

Usagi.4835:

Considering how passive PU condi mesmers are, I don’t see how you could say there’s a high skill cap on it. All you do is chain stealth and dodge more or less.

So you don’t use any weapon skills at all? If this is an average way to fight for a lot of people complaining on the forums (in general), the playerbase is worse off than I thought.

Soccergirl.5734:

Now d/d ele or power ranger or shatter mesmer (but let’s be honest, out of the entire mesmer community maybe 5% IF THAT run shatter builds because pu is so broken and easy to play and get kills with), that’s working hard for your kills.

Please keep in mind that you’re not speaking about equally balanced builds with different skill caps. Skill caps in MMO-PvP are largely a crutch used by underdog-players – who don’t realize they’re doing that – to justify their actions.

If one build has power X, and is easy to play, and another has power X, and is difficult to play, you’d better be playing the former or I’ll question your judgement. Exceptions:

• They’re not actually equal in power.
• You enjoy playing underdog builds. That’s a fair point, I very much do so myself. There’s nothing wrong with that, but you have to accept that you like it and that you intentionally play builds inferior for the situation you’re applying them to (i.e.: Mortar Engi for dungeons).
• Difference is existent but negligible. It simply doesn’t matter in this case.

I feel the first bears more explanation. For example, PU is a very strong build in 1v1 if the enemy wants to do 1v1. It is ~useless in all other situations. It cannot force 1v1, it cannot group fight, it cannot zerg, it cannot siege, it cannot de-siege. It does one thing well. Compared to say, a condition-thief, who is ok in zerg fights and group fights, solid in 1v1, and weak in siege/anti-siege, that’s a completely different level of balance.

There’s often talk about PU being too easy to play, but what you’re actually trying to say is:
When fighting a PU Mesmer 1v1, I feel like the Mesmer has a much easier time dispatching me, while I need a serious initiative advantage to have a fair fighting chance.

That’s not the same!
PU Mesmers are a build meant to punish and dominate players who force 1v1 situations. It is the meta-gameplay reply to players wanting 1v1 combat. If your enemy is (stupidly) out for 1v1, make a build which can’t do anything except retaliate extremely well in those situations.

It’s not “easy to play”, rather it is built to minimize the chance of enemies escaping the trap, unless they realize they’re springing it ahead of time. That’s why it seems like it’s so stupidly easy to play, because the hard part has been done by the enemy. Who fights you 1v1.

An easy way to show this? Don’t be the attacker. Just walk past. See how dangerous that PU Mesmer is? Yeah, not at all.

In a way, this seems similar for me to someone saying that Grenadiers are 1-button-spam in AE situations or GS Warriors are OP in Dungeons: They’re hyper-specialized builds who rely on being forced only into a single situation. And while this can be acceptable in PvE, in PvP where your enemy can recognize this and force a different situation, it is a really unstable approach.

That PU Mesmer has be a godlike player to not be useless when enemies stop attacking her directly and instead go for her team members or points/towers/keeps/whatever.

You’re running condition PU, which is like the most talentless mesmer build whatsoever, in PVP where everyone is forced to stay in tight area, where the noobs really don’t know what’s going on and try to melee everything and keep getting condi stack out of plain ignorance…

And now you’re calling mesmer ez mode… lol Try to use it against players who know how to stay out of range and bluff you to waste all your dodges /stealth/blink before they burst you down to ashes… not to mention that in WVW PU is such a lol when it only takes 1 arrow key to get away.

Carighan.6758:

That PU Mesmer has be a godlike player to not be useless when enemies stop attacking her directly and instead go for her team members or points/towers/keeps/whatever.

Again, I think people are assuming that all mesmers using PU have the same exact builds, in particular the purely-passive Blackwater style build. Hybrid condition/power or condition/critical builds can still do a fair bit even if the enemy chooses not to engage.

@Pyroatheist
“All you do is chain stealth and dodge, more or less.” If I had actually meant that literally, then that entire paragraph about skill and poor play would’ve been relevant.

You can’t think of a SINGLE whine-worthy build in the game? That I find hard to believe. While it’s admirable that you prefer not to ‘whine’ on the forums, that doesn’t mean that people who come here to voice their opinions are incorrect in doing so.

Headshot spam thieves running perplexity runes certainly wasn’t balanced and there was no viable counter for that besides attempting to run away, which wasn’t always possible. But I suppose you would say that too has a high skill-cap against good players? And the parameters for being good there would behaving lots of stability.

All builds have strengths and weaknesses, yes, but it’s not as if there’s an equal split between those on every build. In the case of PU mesmers, what are the weaknesses besides poor movement speed, perhaps poor condition management depending on the traits/utilities you’re using and the inability to chase (but that feeds into poor movement speed and limited mobility, which is a problem most mesmers have, regardless). And the strengths being high uptime on aegis/protection/regeneration and almost constant pressure (Sharper Images trait, Sigil of Earth proc, and if you’re running mainhand sword, as opposed to mainhand scepter). And if things don’t go your way, then you simply stealth to disengage.

@suedetooth
Yes, I know how PU condi mesmers ticks are applied. Why are you even asking that? It’s not as if I haven’t played it before. Redundant because usually you’re asked to check your combat log to see what killed you, and if your opponent was a condition-based mesmer, then why would you bother checking your combat log at all?

Somehow I feel you’re deliberately being facetious by just asking loads of questions but never really answering them in return. So I’m not going to bother elaborating. And what was the point of the dolyak reference? That’s not a good comparison because dolyaks don’t kill anything. If PU mesmers are complaining about not being able to kill dolyaks, they need to switch out to weapon that isn’t scepter or staff.

@Carighan
What? Thieves in general are useless in zergs so condition thieves certainly wouldn’t fare any better.

In any case, I kind of feel this is pointless. I have a mesmer and I love my mesmer too but I don’t think you care to agree on anything that doesn’t say mesmer has a high skill cap.

Laters~

@Usage: No, not a single one. I’ll use your example of headshot thieves. They are certainly aggravating to fight, but that doesn’t make them whine-worthy. You can counter them in multiple ways. Stability is one way. Projectile reflection is a hard-counter. Blinds also work. Stealthing to protect important casts is effective. You can bait the headshots into skills that they can’t interrupt, because headshot is an expensive skill, burning initiative. These are all viable ways that a mesmer can counter a headshot perplexity thief.

As you say, all builds have strengths and weaknesses, and that’s the point. The weaknesses of a PU condie build are quite significant. The build relies on countering aggressive play, and that is its most basic weakness, capable of being exploited in many ways by many classes. Additionally, you can’t hold a point in stealth, so if you play careless enough that you must rely on stealth as a crutch to stay alive, then you’ll lose whatever point you were trying to hold.

If you’re not fighting on a point, then there’s nothing preventing you from just walking away from the mesmer. What’s there to complain about from a build that can’t chase you at more than a walking pace?

Also, to get back to the point about PU-hybrid builds, those sacrifice the main upside of Blackwater setups, namely the trapping of aggressive players. That’s the very thing people cry about, and while I agree it’s wrong to assume all PU-builds are created equal, “PU” tends to signify the counter-play based ones.

Indeed, hybrid setups do ok in many situations, but they also lack the part which causes people to post threads like these. :P

If you want a challenge try running one of my two sPvP builds (Melee s/s or Mantra support) which aren’t favourable or easy to play in the current meta and see how well you fair.

I personally don’t like the stand back and throw stuff at people approach. I like visceral combat and challenge myself to remain in melee range as much as I can for the fun of it and micro managing multiple mantras is difficult when I go support.

Some people say it’s intentionally making it harder for yourself but I found that being good with non-meta builds and play style makes you a much better player overall as you have to pay far more attention to your opponent.

I think it goes for all professions that there are easier to play builds and harder to play builds but you will find that the easier to play builds tend to be less and less effective the more experienced your opponent is because they will also be more experienced at (and probably build for) countering them.

Play against some of the top players who spend every day fighting against these kind of builds and you will find that it’s not nearly as faceroll as you thought and if you don’t like the stand of approach try my above suggestion of running a non-meta build.

Im a bit new to mesmer so that might be part of it, but i can say from experience that just being a mesmer is not enough to be “easy mode”. I get the tar stomped out of me on a regular basis

I like Prismatic Mesmer build but I just can’t stand playing it even in solo Q.

I love the tricksterr and deception concept on the spec especially because of their stealth. But a lot of skilled players know how to deal with Prismatic mesmers. They have little roaming speed unless you go for Blink (which is in my bar 90% of the time) and it’s difficult to keep / cap points since stealth is a must for defense boons.

Also, another thing I like about the Prismatic Mesmer is they have a punishment type game play. Kill the staff clone? Conditions ahoy! Keep the staff clone? Conditions here too!

I like shatter spec and to me, is one of the few “viable” builds in “skilled” pvp.

PU builds are definitly easier to use than shatter or non meta builds.
I’ve been using PU condi then hybrid for a couple of weeks before returning to gc shatter. It’s been nice, easier for 1v1 but I found myself quite useless in group fights.

Mesmer is definitly not an easy profession tho. Of course, if you’re fighting noobies with a PU build, you will roll them. But it’s the same with a shatter build. And it’s a lot faster.

Fun start when you fight good players.

@OP
Well, seems like you basically answered your own question at the beginning of your post when you say: “…I also have been dueling a lot of mesmers … win some lose some.” What I take from that is that you’re saying it’s a 50-50 proposition whether you win or lose against a Mesmer when dueling one with a different class. Am I wrong? If that’s the case, then obviously simply playing a Mesmer isn’t going to guarantee you a win – otherwise you wouldn’t be winning some against them.

@op
yes.
replies you’ll get are obvious lulz of the obvious.