Guild Wars 2

Simple question: what is the formula for mind wrack damage? It seems to depend on weapon strength and power just like a weapon skill. If this is the case, what is the coefficient for each skill. I tried to use the wiki but it is not crystal clear to me and what I understood does not seem to match the in-game values.

Right, my apologies for being unclear about this in the other thread.

aaaaand just checked the wiki and it lacks information, so let me dig this out of my ‘big excel-o-gw2’.

Skill Coefficients for Mind Wrack
1 Clone, per clone: 1.15
2 Clone, per clone: .89
3 Clone, per clone: .77

So, if you have IP + 3 clones, the total coefficient is .77*4, or 3.08.

Now we can apply this to the damage formula: damage = weapon strength * skill coefficient * power / armor

The weapon strength used is your mainhand weapon, so shattering with sword/x or sc/x will be weaker than if you shatter with gs.

Overall, it’s not a linear scaling. A 3 clone shatter (without IP) will do roughly 2x the damage of a 1 clone shatter. With IP, a 3 clone shatter will do about 1.3x the damage of a 1 clone shatter.

I’ve been playing around with the formula and I get the MW damage on crit to be about 8266 against a 2k armour target with my current mesmer sitting on 2419 power 220% Ferocity. Now I’m guessing that’s divided between the 3 clones but I’ve seen people hit for 5k on each clone.

Even adding 450 more power (guard stacks, food, bloodlust stacks) I get it to be 9804 which if divided between clones and self wouldn’t explain a 5k MW hit I took on my thief the other day. Running it as a 2 clone shatter I end up with a crit of 5663 but I thought that had already taken into consideration what each clone does.

Any chance you could help me understand this a little better?

Edit: I think I know where I went wrong. I was working out skill damage not actual damage, forgot to use multipliers and now get each clone doing 3774 damage off the 9804 skill damage number. I also get about 4300 per clone for the 2 clone shatter which is in about the right area.

My own mesmer should be doing 3182 per 3 clone shatter with myself for 4 lots of damage. Never knew 450 power could make such a large difference in damage of about 2.4k.

The skill coefficients I listed are per clone. Another way of thinking of that is that those skill coefficients are what will produce each individual hit of damage that shows up in the log. If you only shatter with 1 clone, each hit of mind wrack that shows up in the log will have been produced from a damage coefficient of 1.15.

2419 * 1.15 * 1000/2000 = 1390

1390 * 2.2 = 3058 base damage.

Now, lets apply modifiers. Bursting with mirror blade adds 9 vuln. Using daze mantra adds another 5 vuln. If you interrupt with that mantra as you burst, that’s another 3 vuln for a total of, but lets stick to 14 for now. Fragility means each stack of vuln is worth 1.5% damage amp, so 14 vuln becomes 21% amped damage. Mental anguish provides another 30% damage amp for a total modifier of 1.21 * 1.30 = 1.573.

3058 * 1.573 = 4810 damage.

Add in other fun things like lower target armor, higher power, other various modifiers (strength runes, scholar runes, w/e) and you can easily boost that past 5k.

Thanks Pyro.

/15char.

Edit: So I decided to do some maths comparing pre patch damage vs post patch damage. It’s a very rough first draft and I would greatly appreciate it if you could give it a check over, point out glaring omissions or correct values that may be off. Posted below.

P.S. I expect the first responce to be “Good lord wtf is this mess”

Ok so I’m wanting to see how much more damage the mirror blade, MW, mind stab combo does pre patch and post patch.

So pre patch berserker was:
+932 Power (200 extra from traits)
+650 Precision (200 extra from traits)
+451 Ferocity (200 extra from traits)
+331 Vitality

Post patch berserker is:
+1200 Power
+900 Precision
+900 Ferocity

Post patch marauder is:
+1050 Precision
+1050 Power
+560 Vitality
+560 Ferocity

Mirror Blade is:
Damage: 259 (0.700 coefficient according to wiki) and has 4 bounces so can hit an enemy 3 times.

Mind Stab is:
Damage: 314 (0.850 coefficeint according to wiki)

Pyro provided the MW coefficients:
1 Clone, per clone: 1.15
2 Clone, per clone: .89
3 Clone, per clone: .77

Base stats in damage are:
1000 power (926 pre patch)
1000 Precision (4% crit chance)
0 ferocity (150% crit damage)

GS weapon strength 995 – 1,100, average 1047.5

Armour base for light 1888, medium 2029, heavy 2167.

Formulae:
Skill Damage = Weapon strength * Power * Skill coefficient / Armor
Damage = (Skill damage * Positive multipliers) / (Armor * Negative multipliers)

Assumptions: Mirror blade hits 3 times, on medium armour, no damage from runes or sigils, meta shatter build, 2+1 clone shatter. Not taking might into consideration but will take into consideration vuln from mirror blade. Mantra of distraction into mental anguish MW.

That’s a lot, don’t pay too much attention though, just figures.

Pre patch berserker: 40.4% crit chance
Mirror blade:
2058*0.7*1047.5/2029 = 743.7
Crit 743.7*1.81 = 1346
With multipliers 1346*1.03 = 1386 1st hit.
Subsequent hits: 2nd = 1427, 3rd = 1467

Mind Wrack:
2058*0.77*1047.5/2029 = 818.1
Crit 818.1*1.81 = 1480
With multipliers 1480*(1.2*1.09) = 1936 (1936*3 = 5808)

Mind Stab:
2058*0.85*1047.5/2029 = 903.1
Crit 903.1*1.81 = 1634
With multipliers 1634*1.09 = 1781

Total damage if all crit = 1386+1427+1467+5808+1781 = 11,869

Post patch marauder: 54% crit chance
Mantra of distraction used as Mirror Blade lands for 5+3 vulnerability on interrupt of 11111 thief. With the GM minor that is 50% more effective.

Mirror Blade:
2050*0.7*1047.5/2029 = 740.8
Crit 740.8*1.76 = 1304
With multipliers 1304*1.12 = 1460
2nd hit 1512, 3rd hit 1564

Mind Wrack:
2050*0.77*1047.5/2029 = 815
Crit 815*1.76 = 1434
With multipliers 1434*(1.3*1.24)= 2311 (2311*3 = 6933)
Note: A simple F1 (1 clone shatter) will do 3453 damage and a full 3+1 clone shatter you’re looking at 9244

Mind Stab:
2050*0.85*1047.5/2029 = 899.5
Crit 899.5*1.76 = 1583
With multipliers 1583*1.24 = 1963

Total damage if all crit = 1460+1512+1564+6933+1963 = 13,432

Post patch berserker: 46.8% crit chance.
Mirror Blade:
2200*0.7*1047.5/2029 = 795
Crit 795*1.93 = 1534
With multipliers 1534*1.12 = 1718
2nd hit 1779, 3rd hit 1856

Mind Wrack:
2200*0.77*1047.5/2029 = 874
Crit 874*1.93 = 1687
With multipliers 1687*(1.3*1.24)= 2719 (2719*3 = 8157)
Note: A simple F1 (1 clone shatter) will do 4063 damage and a full 3+1 clone shatter you’re looking at 10,876

Mind Stab:
2200*0.85*1047.5/2029 = 965
Crit 965*1.93 = 1862
With multipliers 1862*1.24 = 2309

Total damage if all crit =1718+1779+1856+8157+2309 = 15,819

So a comparison of all crit damage.
Old berserker: 11,869
Marauder: 13,432
New berserker: 15,819

However crit chance factors into it as well, with both new amulets having 20% and 12% more crit chance than old berserker respectively. A more realistic comparison might be as follows:

Old berserker: 8,947 (1 MB crit, 2 MW crit) (9,744 if MS crit too)
Marauder: 11,586 (1 MB crit, 2 MW crits and MS crit)
New berserker: 12,073 (1 MB crit, 2 MW crit)

These are just examples, the damage could vary quite a lot due to RNG and it also takes into consideration all clones actually hitting and surviving to hit.

Still post patch we hit a lot harder and a lot of that comes down to the extra vulnerability and our use of it giving us a much higher multiplier (1.612). It is also worth noting that for MW if you do not get the 30% damage against targets not using skills bonus the total multiplier (1.364) is much much closer to pre patch levels (1.308).

TL:DR. We got more modifiers which when fulfilled give us a lot more damage but if not fulfilled or low vulnerability then it’s all just stat inflation.

Math looks solid. One thing to note is that post-patch burst gets fury after the first couple of hits, boosting your crit chance significantly.

Did you include the stats from the trait lines before patch? I can’t see them (maybe didn’t look well). The shatter build had 200 power, 200 precision and 200 ferocity from the trait lines.

Silverkey.2078:

Did you include the stats from the trait lines before patch? I can’t see them (maybe didn’t look well). The shatter build had 200 power, 200 precision and 200 ferocity from the trait lines.

Well kitten time to delete it all /cry.

Ok I’ll go back and rework the pre patch damage. Just working out what our damage is using pre patch modifiers on the stats for the new amulets.

Spoilers: It’s looking increasingly more like a stat problem.

Edit: Ok I fixed the extra stats from trait lines which makes pre patch if all crit damage much much closer to post patch. Adjusted the “realistic” damage for it accordingly.

@ Pyro: Not sure how to take into account the extra fury popping along after the first hit or two. If you activated MW before you got the fury but you got fury while clones are running to blow up, do they get increased chance or not?

Assuming we had pre patch modifiers (1.2 MW and 1.09 vuln) with the new amulets damage looks like this:

Marauder, if all crit: 11,380
Berserker if all crit: 13,390

Now if we assume you’re only getting the 10% modifier from mental anguish but keeping high vuln modifier our new max damage looks like this:

Marauder all crits: 12,367 (5868 from MW)
Berserker all crits: 15, 192 (7530 from MW)

We can see here the difference isn’t exactly that high but the marauder loses out by about 1000 damage on the MW. Still we’re doing a lot higher damage and certainly more than if we had pre patch modifiers on post patch amulets.

With that in mind if we revert the vulnerability to pre patch levels (so only the 9 from mirror blade no fragility no daze/interrupts) our damage would look more like this:

Marauder all crits: 11,967 (6096 from MW)
Berserker all crits: 14,079 (7171 from MW)

So to me this appears that it’s really all the extra vulnerability coupled with the fragility which is causing the massive spike specific to mesmers. Without that even factoring in the full mental anguish bonus we’re not that much higher than if you had simply boosted the amulets.

Extra crits also have their part to play in all this too, the fencers finesse trait certainly is allowing more crits than I want to work out for.

It would be quite difficult to calculate the effect of the fury boost exactly, but a reasonable approximation is to say that the mind wrack hits are affected by that fury, while the mirror blade hits aren’t.

In answer to your question specifically, applied fury will affect mind wrack a from clones that are still running to their target. The clones themselves are just the visual indicator of an impending attack, but the attack is executed and calculated at the moment of impact.

Fay.2357:

It would be quite difficult to calculate the effect of the fury boost exactly, but a reasonable approximation is to say that the mind wrack hits are affected by that fury, while the mirror blade hits aren’t.

In answer to your question specifically, applied fury will affect mind wrack a from clones that are still running to their target. The clones themselves are just the visual indicator of an impending attack, but the attack is executed and calculated at the moment of impact.

Yeah I was thinking it might be something like that. Essentially it means your clones with marauder amulet are going to be at ~75% crit chance so the likelihood of a devastating MW is high and follow up MS will crit a lot too to finish you off.

If I had to make suggestions to tone down the burst or to add more “high skill” to it assuming amulets aren’t being changed it would be:
Mirror Blade: reduce vulnerability to 2 stacks.
Dazzling (dom master minor): Inflict 2 vulnerability on daze.
Illusion of vulnerability: Inflict 6 vulnerability on interrupt.
Master Fencer: Threshold should be 50%.

I think that would tone down the damage of shatter mesmer or at least make stupidly hard bursts something that requires more skill. Won’t matter to most but it will be the death of these mantra of distraction stealth fotm shatters.

Should keep damage for interrupt mesmers. Powerblock will always be better for those looking to actually interrupt however mental anguish is always better for shatter mesmers.