Guild Wars 2

I’ve always thought that mantra was a pretty weird utility, but I think that it should behave differently. Example: Mantra of Restoration, is a 10 second cool down for 2(3) uses, I honestly think they shouldn’t have charges, instead: they have a 30 second timer for uses, and when you use it, it’ll go on a 5-10 second CD and the recharge cool down would be twice of what it currently is… Making it a bit different makes sense to me. I see it would be kind of weird, it just would make mesmer a bit… Different in more ways than currently.

They already offer a unique mechanic. I use mantras all the time, traited for a 3rd charge, heal on charge and depending on my weapons I’ll take the 20% cooldown reduction too.

I’m more than happy with the current implementation.

kybraga.7103:

I’ve always thought that mantra was a pretty weird utility, but I think that it should behave differently. Example: Mantra of Restoration, is a 10 second cool down for 2(3) uses, I honestly think they shouldn’t have charges, instead: they have a 30 second timer for uses, and when you use it, it’ll go on a 5-10 second CD and the recharge cool down would be twice of what it currently is… Making it a bit different makes sense to me. I see it would be kind of weird, it just would make mesmer a bit… Different in more ways than currently.

Perhaps you misunderstand the purpose of mantras?

Mantras are chants you use to prepare actions in advance, offering tactical usage, their cooldowns are fine as they are now and the stacks have inherent cd’s of their own while the chant has an independent cd that triggers when the last stack is spent.

Mantra stacks can be used basically at any time, such as knock downed or stunned, allowing for possible reaction when mobs or players inflict frustrating actions to you.

Mantras are for foresight and strategic use their cooldowns have been reworked in the past and are perfectly fine as they currently are, they are neither overpowered or underpowered as it takes judicious usage to make value of them.

Recasting time of 2 and 3/4 second, would be fine if it’s outside of combat but in combat and it’s like standing still for 2 and 3/4 second, can dodge but you will cancel the casting, by themselves they are pretty bad but it’s ok with multiple traits but=>

Mantra Mastery tier with Far-Reaching Manipulations and Blade Training
Protected Mantras tier with Deceptive Evasion
Empowering Mantras, grandmaster trait
Harmonious Mantras, again, grandmaster trait
Restorative Mantras, it’s in inspiration trait line

So, IMO, their should lower the recasting time to 1 and 3/4 (1 sec less) to make it more usable in combat, because we mesmer already have a lot of casting time for other skill ie all the phantasm and clones, or merge some of the trait together to make it more appearing because currently we have to sacrifice a lot to make mantra usable

BTW i am not against using mantra or anything, i even use mantra of resolve (best condition remover for mesmer), it’s just that they are not very pvp friendly

I thought of something similiar my self once. Has anyone of you played league of legends about 3 years ago? There used to be a champion called Karma that had Mantras too, and I really would like to see her mechanic for us.

It would be like this: You can have a maximum of 2 (or 3) charges and you autmaticly gain one over time. So instead of going on 30 seconds CD, you simply gain a charge ever 10 seconds, stacking up. Mantra of pain for example would gain a charge ever lets say 2-3 seconds. This would make it a great dps source for us.

Offtopic: I want an Elite Mantra that grants 1 sec distortion o.o

Xyonon.3987:

I thought of something similiar my self once. Has anyone of you played league of legends about 3 years ago? There used to be a champion called Karma that had Mantras too, and I really would like to see her mechanic for us.

It would be like this: You can have a maximum of 2 (or 3) charges and you autmaticly gain one over time. So instead of going on 30 seconds CD, you simply gain a charge ever 10 seconds, stacking up. Mantra of pain for example would gain a charge ever lets say 2-3 seconds. This would make it a great dps source for us.

Offtopic: I want an Elite Mantra that grants 1 sec distortion o.o

Not sure about the distortion but yes, would so enjoy to have an elite mantra, who knows maybe they have on in the mesmer spec for hot Mesmer only got 3 elites and people are generally demanding for time warp or complain when you use mass invis for any reason o3o a bit more elite diversity is needed and a mantra could be a fun way to do it.

Keep in mind that all Mantras are AoE :>

Xyonon.3987:

Keep in mind that all Mantras are AoE :>

I am aware, even though not all were originally anet has improved mantra usage by making them so, so if we ever get an elite mantra I’m fairly certain it would be some sort of nice aoe.

The only thing mantras need right now is regenerating charges, either very slowly or when leaving combat (timed so that 0→full hp takes just as long as reaching 3 charges?)

The effects themselves are good as-is, but having to waste 1-2 charges after finishing a fight just so you can be ready for the next is annoying.

Photoloss.4817:

…but having to waste 1-2 charges after finishing a fight just so you can be ready for the next is annoying.

You can swap 1-2 times charged mantras with any skill and swap them back, so you have no CD. Well there is a CD, but it starts when you first charge the mantra.

For example a mantra with a 30 sec CD will go on full CD once you have cast the last mantra. If you charge it, a hidden 30 sec CD starts to count. If this one is gone, you can swap, otherwise you’ll have like 10 sec CD left or something.

Xyonon.3987:

You can swap 1-2 times charged mantras with any skill and swap them back, so you have no CD. Well there is a CD, but it starts when you first charge the mantra.

For example a mantra with a 30 sec CD will go on full CD once you have cast the last mantra. If you charge it, a hidden 30 sec CD starts to count. If this one is gone, you can swap, otherwise you’ll have like 10 sec CD left or something.

Yeah, now you go do that in an area full of Hyenas/Canyon Spiders when you just want a quick condi cleanse. Mesmer and Engineer need some serious “quality of life” changes regarding the amount of button presses. Swapping out reflect utilities and respeccing on the fly without templates is bad enough.

I don’t see the problem there? I already like the current mantras and these mantra changes I just mentioned are the same but just with an autorecharge. It’s even better.

For the huge condi cleanse I’d suggest to buff the nullfield to tick twice as fast and add an immune to boons / conditions while standing inside it.

Xyonon.3987:

I don’t see the problem there? I already like the current mantras and these mantra changes I just mentioned are the same but just with an autorecharge. It’s even better.

For the huge condi cleanse I’d suggest to buff the nullfield to tick twice as fast and add an immune to boons / conditions while standing inside it.

The problem with your setup is that Anet’s stance on PvP/PvE splits will ruin it, since there’s no counterplay. Instant-cast heal or AoE stability/cleanse with no setup or drawback? It’d get nerfed into the ground. Karma worked (somewhat) because her “Mantra” only buffed her other spells, which could still be dodged/interrupted/leashed.

The big appeal I see in PvE Mantras is that they just work. They’re quick, they’re efficient, and most of the time you have to actually try in order to get interrupted during the chant.
Signets and Manipulations are too niche in their effects, and Glamours are bloated with secondary “potential uses” which drag down the viability of their main effect. Null Field, I’m sure, is balanced around stripping boons and conditions on every tick in the midst of a full zerg, while several other people blast and pewpew through it in a mythical world where Confusion and Chaos Armor don’t suck.

My bottom line is “don’t change a working system”, Mantras are fine already (for PvE) and Anet should first focus on skills that are truly underpowered, unhelpful or broken, like PvE in-combat stealth, Signets, Manipulations other than Blink, supportive phantasms, PvE Shatters, THAT STUPID CURTAIN “fix”, 1v1 vs ZvZ balance, iMage, half our traits, Elites worth using when alone…
Once all that is done then yeah, why not make Mantras more “unique” and interesting. Should only take a decade or so :P

Here’s a small tweak that would to make them a little easier to manage.

Make the mantra’s cool down start after the first charge is used instead of the last charge. This would help with the dilemma of having that last charge and wondering if I should waste it now to start the cool down or wait til it’s too late.

I believe Engi’s turrets or Ranger Spirits were like that at one point.

Having mantras auto charge, passively gaining one charge every X seconds would be a nice QoL change for us.

Also yes, elite mantra would be great.

The only pvp counterplay right now is to interrupt the charge of a mantra. There wouldn’t be any buff to them once they’re charged. So I don’t really see any “op” tag here. There are plenty of skills you can only dodge by pure prediction, you’ll never dodge some skills 0.25 windup time just by the animation. Also we already have tons of easy dodgable and predictable skills like shatter and summoned phants. I’d really enjoy this buff without screaming “op”, even when I was another class facing a mes. After all would a mantra mesmer lack of either blink or invis (or both).

Mantras are acceptable right now, they are not great. No decent build uses them in pvp, except for lockdown and only one of them. In PvE they are anyway bombed away and swapped / recharged after each encounter. Charging them during combat decreases the already low dps even further.

Something else about mantras I’d really like to see is, that they become unblockable (either on default or by a trait (COMBINED TRAIT, not another single individual trait that sits in a traitline where an already existing trait is better!). After all, the mantras attack the mind of the enemies wich will unlikely be blocked with a shield. It would also make lockdown stronger to break through blocks and also be great in pve to stop enemies from blocking. Mantra of Distraction would have so much more potential.

I still dream of a mesmer in pvp that isn’t there to burst, rather to be dangerously annoying and combo breaking. For pve I wish more impact on utilities rather than a damage buff.

How about building it into harmonious mantra’s, if you still have one charge left you gain a charge for mantras on your bar every 15s. In this way, it becomes a quality of life boost and enables us a chance to recover during a lul in the battle. It would also have good synergy with the trait that boosts our damage based on our mantra’s by letting us use our utility without stripping the damage…

Zarathustra.1458:

How about building it into harmonious mantra’s, if you still have one charge left you gain a charge for mantras on your bar every 15s.

Even if it would only works out of combat, I’d take it!

Xyonon.3987:

The only pvp counterplay right now is to interrupt the charge of a mantra. There wouldn’t be any buff to them once they’re charged. So I don’t really see any “op” tag here. There are plenty of skills you can only dodge by pure prediction, you’ll never dodge some skills 0.25 windup time just by the animation. Also we already have tons of easy dodgable and predictable skills like shatter and summoned phants. I’d really enjoy this buff without screaming “op”, even when I was another class facing a mes. After all would a mantra mesmer lack of either blink or invis (or both).

In PvP interrupting the chant is the counterplay, because you get limited charges on a limited utility effect, and after that you’re open to interrupts or have to disengage and recharge, also giving your opponent ample breathing time.
Unlike other crazy burst stuff like Shatters however, Mantras are actually good in PvE because you can either recharge after encounters, or when things go south still recharge midfight without any loss other than personal dps, which is only half our total dps anyway. Cycling MoP actually gives very good sustain, though healing more than 1 ally is unrealistic with such a bad PUG.
The loss of the “risk” factor offsets the lack of power/utility in the active effect for PvE, and this dynamic would be lost if the “risk” (charging) is taken out entirely. If Mantras are found to be balanced without the chant then sure, change them. But I’m not willing to sacrifice another set of good PvE options for the sake of sPvP “balance”. And let’s face it, without the charge time as a PvP-centric balancing wheel the actives would be the part to eat the nerf hammer.

I agree that charges should regenerate after combat. That would be a massive QoL change to me, and the main reason why I dislike mantras has to do with how many unneeded button presses I have to go through after each battle to make sure I start the next one with all of them fully charged.

However, this QoL change should only apply to mantras that are already charged, of course (AKA, mantras where you have at least 1 charge left). If you had used all charges, you would need to prepare them again, no matter what. Auto-regeneration would ONLY occur if you had at least 1 charge left, and out of combat. It’s purpose would be purely for a QoL change to take away unneeded button presses out of combat, and not as an unintentional buff.

DiogoSilva.7089:

I agree that charges should regenerate after combat. That would be a massive QoL change to me, and the main reason why I dislike mantras has to do with how many unneeded button presses I have to go through after each battle to make sure I start the next one with all of them fully charged.

However, this QoL change should only apply to mantras that are already charged, of course (AKA, mantras where you have at least 1 charge left). If you had used all charges, you would need to prepare them again, no matter what. Auto-regeneration would ONLY occur if you had at least 1 charge left, and out of combat. It’s purpose would be purely for a QoL change to take away unneeded button presses out of combat, and not as an unintentional buff.

This exactly. Alternatively, let the cooldown start when you use the first mantra charge. This would have much the same effect. Neither would exactly be all that overpowered, as the primary difference would be a shorter time spent between fights waiting for cooldowns to recharge.

Zarathustra.1458:

DiogoSilva.7089:

I agree that charges should regenerate after combat. That would be a massive QoL change to me, and the main reason why I dislike mantras has to do with how many unneeded button presses I have to go through after each battle to make sure I start the next one with all of them fully charged.

However, this QoL change should only apply to mantras that are already charged, of course (AKA, mantras where you have at least 1 charge left). If you had used all charges, you would need to prepare them again, no matter what. Auto-regeneration would ONLY occur if you had at least 1 charge left, and out of combat. It’s purpose would be purely for a QoL change to take away unneeded button presses out of combat, and not as an unintentional buff.

This exactly. Alternatively, let the cooldown start when you use the first mantra charge. This would have much the same effect. Neither would exactly be all that overpowered, as the primary difference would be a shorter time spent between fights waiting for cooldowns to recharge.

Would this in some way negate the need for the mantra mastery trait, or would that still be useful for longer fights? I could still see a use for it, but it’d be even less useful than current.

While I am a big advocate for counterplay, I do have to point out that Elementalist Cantrips do the same (some could argue “more”) than similar mantras … and don’t have any counterplay to them either … at least not in the form of being interrupted.

Condition cleanses and stunbreaks have counterplay in that your opponent is trying to get you to get them on cooldown so they can then get you with more conditions/stuns while they are on cooldown.

Our only Mantras that don’t have much counterplay aside from the charge are Distraction and Pain … give an animation and there’s your counterplay as people can react to what they see … though that better only happen if they do the same for other instant, non-telegraphed abilities in the game that can do thousands of damage … like our “hard-counter” also has access to.

I want either:

• the Mantras to recharge 1 charge at a time over-time on their own
• or give me a way to recharge it to full via casting without having to first cast my remaining charges and wait on the cooldown.

skcamow.3527:

Would this in some way negate the need for the mantra mastery trait, or would that still be useful for longer fights? I could still see a use for it, but it’d be even less useful than current.

If the solo purpose of Mantra Mastery was to make you wait a few less seconds before going through the whole cumbersome process of wasting the remaining charges to recharge the whole thing anew, then that trait wouldn’t have much of a purpose in the first place. The QoL change should come in regardless of that trait. But anet could always add a small extra functionaly to MM, like, prepared mantras auto-regenerate their charges faster while out of combat. So, say, the default could be 1 charge every 10 seconds, and the trait would make it go for each 8 seconds.

If you had Mantras auto-recharge … why not simply have Mantra Mastery reduce the time for that auto-recharge ?

<edit>
Honestly, I think that’d probably be more helpful than reducing 4 seconds off the cooldown for a mantra I’m going to need to find 2.75 seconds to channel uninterrupted.

Sebrent.3625:

While I am a big advocate for counterplay, I do have to point out that Elementalist Cantrips do the same (some could argue “more”) than similar mantras … and don’t have any counterplay to them either … at least not in the form of being interrupted.

Condition cleanses and stunbreaks have counterplay in that your opponent is trying to get you to get them on cooldown so they can then get you with more conditions/stuns while they are on cooldown.

Our only Mantras that don’t have much counterplay aside from the charge are Distraction and Pain … give an animation and there’s your counterplay as people can react to what they see … though that better only happen if they do the same for other instant, non-telegraphed abilities in the game that can do thousands of damage … like our “hard-counter” also has access to.

And how many people use cantrips in PvE? Cleansing Fire is 3 conditions every 40s, Mantra is 4 conditions every ~25s. Earth Armor is 6s stab and 1 stunbreak (+ protection) every 75s, Mantra is 4s stab and 2 stunbreaks every ~30s, Lightning Flash is Blink trading stunbreak and 10s cd for damage. Mist Form can’t really be compared especially since eles are squishier overall.
Mantra cleanse is over 2x as effective even without the AoE, that’s what makes it worth considering for PvE.

And how, exactly, do you add animations/“reactive” counterplay to an instant-cast ability, if I may ask? No delays, that would again break it for PvE (cleanse out of Fear, MoP tagging, stunbreaks are instant-cast anyway…)

First, if you’re only looking at MetaBattle for elementalist PvE builds, then, no, you won’t find any cantrips because those are speed-run builds and loaded with weapons due to their current state on the power curve.

Second, Elementalists have some astoundingly good traits for their cantrips that turn all of them into condition cleanses, regen, vigor, etc.. This makes these utilities much higher up on the power curve … and it takes only a single trait line.

Third, Armor of Earth also provides protection and Cleansing Fire also provides AOE burning. Neither is “just a stunbreak + stability” nor “just a condition cleanse”. They have their secondary effects.

Fourth, yes, two Mesmer Mantras provide their effects in a small (240) radius around them. Elementalist can provide the cleanse with just weapon skills in a much larger area and with some healing to boot … not to mention their other benefits such as all their other combos for Might stacking, providing Fury to the group, etc.. Does Mesmer have to always have someone else better than them at something? Are they not allowed to be that class people first think of when they think “our group needs some more condi removal support” or “our group needs some more stability”.

Fifth, I never said anything about what that recharge time would be per charge. If you feel that it would need to be longer than the current cooldowns for Mantras, then let’s discuss that. I don’t believe I’ve seen anyone take issue with that idea.

Sixth, you’d obviously have to add some 0.5+ second between the cast and when it hits. I don’t think this is asking for too much. Sure, it’s a nerf to Mesmer, but it’d be a nerf to all the other classes that currently benefit from abilities that instantly hit their opponent for several thousand damage immediately at the press of a button with no telegraph. This is the most minor of points brought up though … the main points are on Mantra charges.

Lastly, you’re coming off a bit aggressive. Please calm it.

DiogoSilva.7089:

skcamow.3527:

Would this in some way negate the need for the mantra mastery trait, or would that still be useful for longer fights? I could still see a use for it, but it’d be even less useful than current.

If the solo purpose of Mantra Mastery was to make you wait a few less seconds before going through the whole cumbersome process of wasting the remaining charges to recharge the whole thing anew, then that trait wouldn’t have much of a purpose in the first place. The QoL change should come in regardless of that trait. But anet could always add a small extra functionaly to MM, like, prepared mantras auto-regenerate their charges faster while out of combat. So, say, the default could be 1 charge every 10 seconds, and the trait would make it go for each 8 seconds.

Yeah that’s what I was getting at; I personally don’t see mantra mastery useful at all. The very few seconds it shaves off recharge just doesn’t feel worth it when you still have to then recharge them again when they become available.

I like the QoL change suggested, though I’m afraid we’d be left with an even more useless trait than we already have and don’t trust Anet to revamp other things based on this potential change. Even so, it’d be a good trade-off for sure.

Sebrent.3625:

Second, Elementalists have some astoundingly good traits for their cantrips that turn all of them into condition cleanses, regen, vigor, etc.. This makes these utilities much higher up on the power curve … and it takes only a single trait line.

Forgive me if I missed one, but I only see Might and Regen+Vigor, both in traitlines that offer other, less selfish ways of granting these boons. It’s not a single trait line, and I don’t see the “all of them cleanse” trait either.

Sebrent.3625:

Third, Armor of Earth also provides protection and Cleansing Fire also provides AOE burning. Neither is “just a stunbreak + stability” nor “just a condition cleanse”. They have their secondary effects.

True, we call it “Null Field”. And that’s my point, those Cantrips, just like our Glamours, are overloaded with “helpful on paper” secondary effects that drag down their effectiveness, while Mantras have one purpose and one purpose only. If we can somehow get secondary effects without compensating nerfs, again, go ahead.

Sebrent.3625:

Fourth, yes, two Mesmer Mantras provide their effects in a small (240) radius around them. Elementalist can provide the cleanse with just weapon skills in a much larger area and with some healing to boot … not to mention their other benefits such as all their other combos for Might stacking, providing Fury to the group, etc.. Does Mesmer have to always have someone else better than them at something? Are they not allowed to be that class people first think of when they think “our group needs some more condi removal support” or “our group needs some more stability”.

That’s overall class balance which you can’t compare easily. Plus I don’t see anyone asking for ele/thief when they need reflects (yet! XD )

Sebrent.3625:

Fifth, I never said anything about what that recharge time would be per charge. If you feel that it would need to be longer than the current cooldowns for Mantras, then let’s discuss that. I don’t believe I’ve seen anyone take issue with that idea.

I wouldn’t mind actual buffs (who does?), but I don’t want to take another stupid PvE nerf for the sake of sPvP balance, which I fear auto-regen would incur in the form of weaker actives or increased cooldown.

Sebrent.3625:

Sixth, you’d obviously have to add some 0.5+ second between the cast and when it hits. I don’t think this is asking for too much. Sure, it’s a nerf to Mesmer, but it’d be a nerf to all the other classes that currently benefit from abilities that instantly hit their opponent for several thousand damage immediately at the press of a button with no telegraph. This is the most minor of points brought up though … the main points are on Mantra charges.

MoP needs to be instant in order to be viable, MoD not as much but casting it while cc’d is the only real reason to use it in PvE. If lockdown builds become overpowered enough nerfing that and only that would be okay.

Sebrent.3625:

Lastly, you’re coming off a bit aggressive. Please calm it.

Sorry, just a little fed up that most discussions only consider “how great something would be for tournament play” or “not enough deeeeps!” for speedclearing dungeons 1.5s quicker. I don’t mind having PvP-only specs, but I DO mind having perfectly valid PvE options ruined because of them. Nothing personal.

Perhaps some middle-ground could work where if you still have at least 1 charge on the mantra, then after (X * cooldown), you’ll regain a charge. So that would give us:

• Mantra of Pain … 2 charges … 2.75s cast time … 1s cooldown … Passive 1 charge gained every 10s as long as you have at least 1 charge left.
• Mantra of Resolve … 2 charges … 2.75s cast time … 20s cooldown … Passive 1 charge gained every 30s as long as you have at least 1 charge left.
• Mantra of Concentration … 2 charges … 2.75s cast time … 25s cooldown … Passive 1 charge gained every 37.5s as long as you have at least 1 charge left.
• Mantra of Distraction … 2 charges … 2.75s cast time … 30s cooldown … Passive 1 charge gained every kitten as long as you have at least 1 charge left.
• Mantra of Recovery … 2 charges … 2.75s cast time … 10s cooldown … Passive 1 charge gained every 15s as long as you have at least 1 charge left.

All I did was made the single charge’s recharge be 150% of the cooldown. So, for 2 charges that’d be 300% of the cooldown which I think is fair.

NOTE: yes, I did far more than 150% of the cooldown for Mantra of Pain … it is unique.

Additionally, this would allow Empowered Mantras and Harmonious Mantras to better coexist in the same build as you can now gain the +% dmg from Empowered but still use your Mantras a decent amount … more so with Harmonious Mantras.

Photoloss.4817:

Forgive me if I missed one, but I only see Might and Regen+Vigor, both in traitlines that offer other, less selfish ways of granting these boons. It’s not a single trait line, and I don’t see the “all of them cleanse” trait either.

For Cantrip condition removal … an Elementalist can combine these two traits. It turns all Cantrips into a single condition removal on top of the regen and vigor.

• https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Soothing_Disruption … Cantrips provide regen + vigor
• https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Cleansing_Water … remove a condition when you give regen to yourself and/or an ally.

Photoloss.4817:

True, we call it “Null Field”. And that’s my point, those Cantrips, just like our Glamours, are overloaded with “helpful on paper” secondary effects that drag down their effectiveness, while Mantras have one purpose and one purpose only. If we can somehow get secondary effects without compensating nerfs, again, go ahead.

I’d argue against Armor of Earth’s secondary effect only being effective on paper … perhaps when I strip it from them (go Mesmer!), but protection + stability is awesome. The other cantrips are definitely more situational though, I agree … though Elementalist isn’t in a bad spot so it may still be balanced considering all the class has access to.

Personally, I believe Null Field has been nerfed so many times (directly and indirectly) that it isn’t in a great state … nerfed to only 1 per pulse … Chaos Armor is nerfed … Illusionary Membrane nerfed … Glamours nerfed …

Photoloss.4817:

That’s overall class balance which you can’t compare easily. Plus I don’t see anyone asking for ele/thief when they need reflects (yet! XD )

Elementalist and Thief both have projectile block though … which people are quite happy with. For reflect, they also have Guardians. Reflects are hardly our niche … though we definitely contribute as Mesmers.

Photoloss.4817:

I wouldn’t mind actual buffs (who does?), but I don’t want to take another stupid PvE nerf for the sake of sPvP balance, which I fear auto-regen would incur in the form of weaker actives or increased cooldown.

What nerfs are you afraid of? I can understand fearing an ability getting a nerf to counterbalance a buff, but perhaps there is some way to either

• Buff without warranting a nerf
• Buff well enough that the nerf is worth it

Photoloss.4817:

MoP needs to be instant in order to be viable, MoD not as much but casting it while cc’d is the only real reason to use it in PvE. If lockdown builds become overpowered enough nerfing that and only that would be okay.

If mantras recharged on their own, I don’t think MoP would need to be instant to be viable. I disagree on the use of MoD. It is useful for more than when you are simply CC’d.

Personally, I’m sick of large nerfs due to a single build. That is how PU resulted in Mesmer’s protection getting nerfed hard … far more than I believe was warranted. That nerf killed several of my builds that didn’t use an ounce of stealth except sometimes decoy. Still peeved about that … probably will be every time I want to run one of my old tanky Mesmer builds.

Photoloss.4817:

Sorry, just a little fed up that most discussions only consider “how great something would be for tournament play” or “not enough deeeeps!” for speedclearing dungeons 1.5s quicker. I don’t mind having PvP-only specs, but I DO mind having perfectly valid PvE options ruined because of them. Nothing personal.

No worries. I now have a better idea of where you’re coming from.
I do a healthy amount of both PvP and PvE (as much as the wife and kids will allow anyways), so I try to frame my opinion from both perspectives.

For example, I don’t think making MoP have an animation and hit 0.5s after you cast it would cause an issue in PvE. Same with MoD. Perhaps making the AOE slightly larger could compensate for any potential issue with that such as it sometimes hitting less mobs since they can technically move some in that 0.5s.

I can see the concern with having larger cooldowns on your mantras’ charges in PvE as I do more often have a chance to recharge my Mantras in 40+ fractals than I do in PvP. Going from 2 charges every <30s (cooldown + cast time) to one charge every Xs could definitely be a nerf as you get less charges per second if able to cast soon after the cooldown.

Does my idea above work better for you?

Sebrent.3625:

For example, I don’t think making MoP have an animation and hit 0.5s after you cast it would cause an issue in PvE. Same with MoD. Perhaps making the AOE slightly larger could compensate for any potential issue with that such as it sometimes hitting less mobs since they can technically move some in that 0.5s.

I can see the concern with having larger cooldowns on your mantras’ charges in PvE as I do more often have a chance to recharge my Mantras in 40+ fractals than I do in PvP. Going from 2 charges every <30s (cooldown + cast time) to one charge every Xs could definitely be a nerf as you get less charges per second if able to cast soon after the cooldown.

Does my idea above work better for you?

MoP is vital for tagging since we don’t have any decent pulsing AoE fields. Any delay hinders it greatly, even latency since you need to select a target and auto-target is terrible for lining up circular AoE. Other than that the main use is cycling with Restorative Mantras, so anything that doesn’t affect the spam-cycle time is okay. MoD has other viable uses, but few/none that strictly require the instant-cast.

Anything that leaves the spam-on-cooldown effectiveness the same should be fine for PvE, and adding additional effects/timer buffs on top of the current charge/cooldown mechanic is fine. But if the charge is removed the passive generation timer will be balanced around sPvP fringe cases, and we know how that ends.

And for your suggestion, consider Mantra of Recovery in a PU stall build, 170 hp/s regen with no condition or counter besides losing out on an inferior “active” heal, that’s half a Healing Signet on top of all our damage mitigation, which can also be traited to cleanse 2 conditions every 15s…

I wouldn’t exactly mind such buffs, especially if the PvP pros conclude they would be good for the meta, but I’d rather see changes targeted at both specific skills and specific game modes. Since it’s mostly PvP where Mantras fall short I would suggest buffing defensive traits which won’t be abused in PvE, or tampering with the charge time. Example:

Protected Mantras gives a base 2s Stability upon starting the channel, 1 stack, 10s ICD (numbers are horribly off I’d guess, toughness boost should stay)

or: Mantra Mastery reduces the charge time by 0.75-1.5s, possibly keeping the CDR

Both should help with the core weaknesses of Mantras in PvP and give additional balancing handles to tweak. Neither would see much abuse in PvE because you can have MoC up for every big attack anyway and no mob will bother to interrupt your chant. MoP could get interesting, but all the cheap 1shots would still hit just as hard.

I don’t think 15s on a single charge for Mantra of Restoration is too short, look at some of the other heals in game that have 15s cooldowns for the full heal … not 1/2 (or 1/3) of the heal.

• Ether Renewal (channeled, but removes conditions without any traits req’d … up to 8 conditions)
• Signet of Malice (with a passive heal to boot … and traits to reduce its cooldown below 15s and have it give initiative, might, etc. when activated)
• Withdraw (remove movement conditions, evades, also quite a bit of movement)
• Med Kit Bandage is 12s and you have 3 of them (somewhat of a stretch though)
• Mirror

Except for Med Kit Bandage, those are full heals on 15s or better. I don’t think half a heal on such a cooldown would be too bad, but if you disagree, then perhaps the passive for MoR could be 20s. Would that work for you? Cooldowns with 20s cooldowns are:

• Healing Signet (lol, they never activate it … why would they)
• Mending (untraited cleanses 3 conditions)
• Heal As One
• Water Spirit (who actually takes this :-/)
• Summon Blood Fiend (some Minion Master builds?)
• Healing Turret (can be shorter if picked up … also can be combined for cleanse and a second heal from the water field blast finisher)
• Bandage Self
• Ether Feast

Given that all of those full heals are on base 20s cooldowns (some can be even shorter) and some even include cleanses … some even more than that … that is why I think 15s is more suitable for half a heal … even if you spend trait points to improve it to be a cleanse as well. Others aren’t having to make that investment for a full heal on the same or better to do the same.

I think lowering the cast time for Mantra of Pain could get ridiculous, especially if lowered by 1.5s so that it is only 1.25. Combine that with Restorative Mantras and you are spamming high damage, no-telegraph AOE damage and healing yourself.

• 1s cooldown between two charges being cast
• 1s cooldown on ability
• 1.5s cast
  You’re healing every 3.5s and nuking quite a bit in that period as well.

Maybe that’d be fine, but I’m not sure.

A shorter cast time for all the other Mantra’s would definitely improve Mantra QoL.

percentage based chance for recharge on crits? maybe? 50% like sigils?

given how high most Mesmer builds have crit, I think that would be OP.

Why not just change the recharge to be triggered from the moment we expend the first charge. This would indirectly buff all the mesmer traits.

Sebrent.3625:

Given that all of those full heals are on base 20s cooldowns (some can be even shorter) and some even include cleanses … some even more than that … that is why I think 15s is more suitable for half a heal … even if you spend trait points to improve it to be a cleanse as well. Others aren’t having to make that investment for a full heal on the same or better to do the same.

I know the numbers are pretty low from an objective standpoint, the problem is that most of those heals can be interrupted, while autoregen Mantra can’t, and we have so many damage avoidance skills which effectively magnify the heal. At least the recharge rate can be used to balance it, so no conceptual problem here. The Warrior whine would be glorious though.

Sebrent.3625:

I think lowering the cast time for Mantra of Pain could get ridiculous, especially if lowered by 1.5s so that it is only 1.25. Combine that with Restorative Mantras and you are spamming high damage, no-telegraph AOE damage and healing yourself.

• 1s cooldown between two charges being cast
• 1s cooldown on ability
• 1.5s cast
  You’re healing every 3.5s and nuking quite a bit in that period as well.

Maybe that’d be fine, but I’m not sure.

A shorter cast time for all the other Mantra’s would definitely improve Mantra QoL.

You’d also lose a utility slot, at least 1 valuable Dueling Trait, and you’d spend half your time with a giant, glowing “smack me now!” sign above your head. 2 more trait points down the drain for Restorative Mantras unless you’re in a tank/sustain build in the first place.
I would definitely suggest making the buffed Mantra trait a Master, or even swap it with Harmonious Mantras if that alone doesn’t take enough trait points out of sustain spammers. 0/6/0/4/0+X would already be a hefty hit for PvE, in particular you’d lose Empowering Mantras, meaning you’d have to make a choice between pure dps and support/sustain. Which is good.

Independent of the traits, how easily can you get “out of combat” in high-level PvP? Would something like this be abusable:

While out of combat, all readied Mantras regenerate charges at a rate of 1 every 1-5s. A flat 3s rate would be nice and easy to read, otherwise 1s MoP, 2-3s both MoR, 3-5s MoD. MoC might have to go as high as “four to five seconds” (seriously? took me half a minute to even figure out why it’s censored) base because some idiot would try to pre-stack Stability with it, but the others would be inherently limited as they have no actual use outside of combat (you already heal rapidly, and damage/conditions/interrupt should put you in combat right away)

That might potentially be a fair balance, so long as it could not trigger while you are in stealth. As 3s + PU could enable you to recover a charge on each mantra simply by using decoy or torch.

Zarathustra.1458:

That might potentially be a fair balance, so long as it could not trigger while you are in stealth. As 3s + PU could enable you to recover a charge on each mantra simply by using decoy or torch.

How exactly would you manage that? With “out of combat” I meant “no yellow markings around the skill bar and OOC health regen active”.
It’s not meant to be a PvP combat buff, only a QoL change for PvE/WvW roaming.

Ah okies, I do not use stealth much, but I was under the impression it broke combat. Of course I am probably wrong in the assumption, but it is worth considering how the mechanics might interact behind the scenes. The last thing we need is something like the power block over reaction occurring against a mantra QoL change.

Zarathustra.1458:

Ah okies, I do not use stealth much, but I was under the impression it broke combat. Of course I am probably wrong in the assumption, but it is worth considering how the mechanics might interact behind the scenes. The last thing we need is something like the power block over reaction occurring against a mantra QoL change.

Nah, Thieves have special traits to heal while stealthed so they don’t need OOC regen. As far as I know even they only use it as a hard disengage, essentially to restart the fight from fresh in hopes of landing a better opening burst.
Might make a burst mesmer more “meat-grindy”, but if people run into a burst spec 1 by 1, waiting for their ally to die before fighting themselves, they probably deserve the loss.

I figured the solution to Mantras was pretty simple. You have 2.75s prep time, which isn’t an issue when not in combat. It’s the clunky in-combat preparation that presents the biggest issue with mantras. I figure the best solution would be to have the mantras only require preparation on skill swap or death/map change (and not on down).

The CD between charge uses is fine as is. The skills’ natural CDs could be summed with the prep time then divided by 2 (and possibly rounded up for the sake of balance) to determine how often one regains a charge of the mantra.

[Mantra of Pain: 2.75s+1s=3.75s, round up to 4s, divide by 2, so a charge of MoP would be regained ~2s after each use (or if they feel that’s too often, then every 2s after the final charge is expended, though I feel the former is a better combat option)]

[Mantra of Recovery: 2.75s+10s=12.75s, round up to 13 (or 14 for ease of math), charges regained at a rate of ~7s]

[Mantra of Distraction: 2.75s+30s=32.75s, round to 33 (34), charges regained at a rate of ~17s]

[Mantra of Concentration: 2.75s+25s=27.75s, round to 28, charges regained at a rate of ~14s]

[Mantra of Resolve: 2.75s+20s=22.27s, round to 23 (24), charges regained at a rate of ~12s]

I feel this kind of change would improve overall functionality of mantras without making them overpowered (especially with a slightly increased overall recharge time—a small price to pay to not have to worry about finding time to prepare while in combat if you ask me) while also making mantra related traits such as the reduced CD and extra charge even more valuable. This change might make them a more desirable option for those precious utility slots. The penalty for spamming is still embedded as doing so will result in the full lengthy recharge before regaining maximum charges, but still gives the option to either use them in a sustained or burst fashion. Changes to damage and healing can be adjusted to compensate for balance if ANet deems them necessary (as I’m sure they will in the case of Restorative Mantras).

Sebrent.3625:

given how high most Mesmer builds have crit, I think that would be OP.

ok then 25% or 10%.

Darkpsyde.4782:

Changes to damage and healing can be adjusted to compensate for balance if ANet deems them necessary (as I’m sure they will in the case of Restorative Mantras).

…and that is why I have full trust in Anet to completely butcher Mantras for PvE if such a change goes live. Right now Mantras are in a workable spot because you can effectively split them between PvE and PvP, without actually splitting.
What you suggest would again force PvE players to suck up PvP-centric nerfs to the actual effectiveness. Or how would you like MoP to deal 2k damage pre-crit, or Restorative Mantras heals 5k in a 900+ AoE so you can actually heal your PUG team? That’s the kind of scale you’re looking at from a reversed perspective, making “support” the best-in-slot option for PvE.

Even if the current recharge timers would be balanced in PvP with the chant removed, I would be very skeptical for the future because this would still eliminate a potential balancing handle that doesn’t wreck PvE instantly. Would sPvP players enjoy Maim the Disillusioned buffed to 10 stacks per illusion so it’s a competitive pick for PvE? I think not.

Your distrust of ANet’s ability to make “proper” adjustments is really the issue here, but that has no bearing on the quality of my suggestion. I’m well aware that ANet’s idea of “balance” is really a crapshoot at times, especially when it comes to my main class, but I didn’t even come close to making any of the ridiculous suggestions you’ve stated.

And you didn’t address any of the concerns I already voiced multiple times prior to your post, hence the unfriendly reply.
The more options they have to tweak individual aspects of a skill/build, the less likely a single knee-jerk nerf will wreck the affected content for everyone. Your suggestion removes potential balancing options.
And nerfing the dps or heal/s on purely spamming MoP is just as ridiculous for PvE as what I mentioned would be for PvP, it’s barely helpful as is. Unless you meant only reducing the actual number, so heal/s would stay the same with the new charge gain system.

The overall amount of downtime between charge uses would remain roughly the same (adjusted to account for the increased recharge time, if any, since they would be removing the need to re-prepare as it is set up currently). That may be slightly more or slightly less dps/hps (most likely slightly less knowing anet) but not enough to be significant considering you no longer have the extra down time required to prepare a mantra. That time can now be spent maintaining dps or reviving or whatever else may arise without having your utilities be unusable until you set them up. Time spent charging mantras is time you can’t perform other actions (like dodging, healing—if not using a charged mantra to do so, use a weapon skill other than say phase retreat, etc) without constantly having the skill reset. No other class is required to go through that kind of ordeal just to be able to USE the utility. I understand that once charged the mantras can be used during ANY action, but once expended, we don’t have nearly enough tools available to have any hope of charging MULTIPLE mantras in combat without having a very specific build. Having to blow a long CD just to ensure the preparation of a UTILITY skill is bad design in my opinion. Most of these issues are non-existent in PvE seeing as how you can pretty much do anything and it works. When having to deal with massive amounts of CC (including conditions like Chill), however, having a utility skill that may only get to be used once in a battle despite having its full CD expire is more of a liability than it should be. Utility skills should not be LIMITED in functionality for most builds, just more effective with certain builds. We need more variety in viable choices, not less if we want to see more diversity. That’s why my suggestion was made as it was, taking pve, wvw, AND pvp into account.

Your error lies in the assumption that the effect/time ratio will remain unchanged with the new mechanic. Even if this is implemented initially (unlikely as is), it would leave Anet without any further options if that turns out to be overpowered. They would be forced to nerf cooldowns or active effects to maintain PvP balance, wrecking PvE in the process.

Simply reducing the chant time is different, because that timer, that window of vulnerability, still exists. You can set it to 0.25s and increase cooldowns accordingly, but if that’s deemed OP you can at least increase it back to, say 1.5s. Put it in a trait if only certain builds are OP (you don’t want shatter+4Mantra to be a top pick…)

Go for a middle ground, not an extreme that is bound to fail eventually.

And again, state not only why a change is needed, but also how your proposition is better than other suggestions, for example the ones I have listed in this thread. I have clearly stated the problems with yours, so please give constructive feedback on how those problems can be avoided or why taking those risks would be worth it even in the long run.

Was there something wrong with keeping the cooldowns and cast time the same as they are now, but allowing a passive 1 charge per X second recharge as long as you have 1+ charges?

In that case, they are just adding the passive recharge aspect. Thus, if it needs to be buffed/nerfed, they can just tweak the X second recharge and leave the current cast time and cooldown as is.

Sebrent.3625:

Was there something wrong with keeping the cooldowns and cast time the same as they are now, but allowing a passive 1 charge per X second recharge as long as you have 1+ charges?

In that case, they are just adding the passive recharge aspect. Thus, if it needs to be buffed/nerfed, they can just tweak the X second recharge and leave the current cast time and cooldown as is.

sounds reasonable to me.
maybe adding in-combat recharge only to it, just to maintain the players responsiblity to manage the handling from time to time inbetween combat situations