Guild Wars 2

Edit: Additional question for you guys; What would you change about mantras and their traits to make them viable in PvP if you could?

— Mantra Viability —

So, let’s focus on the positives first with the upcoming mantra changes. They are actually starting to improve mantras! -Big cheers all around!-

• AOE condition removal
• AOE stability
  source: Upcoming Balance Changes

Still a long way to go for mantras as a whole but I’ve been thinking about it and I feel that mantras may be viable now as support in PvP.

— Let’s Theorycraft —

So let’s theorycraft on how viable this could make mantras in PvP (As they already are for PvE).

First of the only way we could make mantras viable currently in sPvP would be to go in the tankiest spec possible. There will be periods of time where you will obviously be exposed as you cast mantras so you won’t be able to dish out a lot of damage + the time requirement with casting mantras also takes away from damage up-time. The upside is that you can do superb team support.

Right now mesmers are sitting largely on the sideline since the condition meta hit because we struggle with the conditions. Support builds I feel are the answer for us to make a comeback and builds focusing on support are the key. Mantra healing and AOE condition removal are a great solution. So I’ve come up with some ideas that may work in practice.

— Build Ideas —

First build: Heal Focused

The main purpose of the build is to heal up your team as much as possible and removing conditions. I’m aware that restorative mantra healing power scaling is pretty bad but added up across several mantras it makes a big difference.

Secondly you will be receiving a lot of regeneration from your runes and trait skills which gets passed on to your team to combat conditions. The best counter against conditions apart from removal is healing. We have tons of that to dish out.

That gives you two sources of healing:

• Direct 2.8k+- Mantra Healing
• Regeneration through traits/runes

And gives you five sources of condition removal, three of which are team based.

• Condition removal on shatter
• Power Cleanse
• Disenchanter
• Mender’s Purity
• Cleansing Conflagration

Second build: Boon Focused

This one I thought to go more towards focusing on the boons with boon duration and signet of inspiration passing along boons while still maintaining a healthy dose of healing.

Third build: Condition Removal Focused

With this one I went full on condition removal it only uses two mantras in the build but it’s all about the condition removal in team fight. I don’t really feel like quite this much condition removal is needed but it may be worth a shot.

— The Issues —

So of course it’s not as simple as equipping some mantras and it’ll work! sPvP is fast paced, high damage environment and the time it takes to cast mantras is generally what the problem is.

This is why I kept choosing torch as one of the weapons of choice as well as mass invisibility. Stealth will give you the time you need to cast a mantra (or two).

Secondly you can opt to equip the new AOE stability mantra over mantra of pain which you can also use to prevent being interrupted or even better your team can look out for you with additional stealth, stability and boons.

It’s important to remember that the Mantra support mesmer is a team player. Your team needs to work with you strategy wise for it to work adequately. But just think about it if your team supports you how glorious the condition removal will be. How nicely the healing will counter all those nasty conditions. Your team would greatly benefit from having you there. I honestly feel it’s worth a second look.

Downside of this clearly is you will need an experienced team, experienced mesmer who can really put this to the test. I’m very much looking forward to seeing how it plays out. Right now I feel it could go either way in viability.

I just know that when last I tried running mantras as a build in sPvP that it almost worked but not quite but that was before the mantra cast reduction, before the upcoming AOE changes and before the condition meta. Mantras are weak versus burst, but condition rules right now so time to dust off those mantras and see if we can make a come back

I would love to see what ideas people come up with and what people think of my ideas.

I like this thread

Here’s something I made.

Support Mesmer
This build is meant to be played as a mid-point support with AoE healing, boons and reflections. I chose Medic’s Feedback cause it can be pretty awesome in teamfights.
Casting Mantras will make you even tougher, combined with ID you should be able to eat quite some direct damage. Mantra of Concentration can be used to get the other Mantras ready. Chaos Storm is also pretty good to get them ready.
Wardens Feedback could probably be replaced with shattered conditions for even more AoE cleansing. But meh, I like my reflections.
Oh, and remember to place your Chaos Storm or Curtain at your iWarden.

Full Water runes was just a thought, how much does it heal actually? Restorative Mantras (8s CD on Mantra of Recovery) plus Water Runes (6) plus Phantasmal healing sounds quite good, but I never checked how much it heals.

I like the ideas here. Incidentally, I posted a lockdown/support mantra build yesterday:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Lockdown-The-Underexplored-Playstyle/first#post2827202

This was before I knew about the upcoming changes. That AoE condition cleanse is going to be powerful and won’t require mesmers to go 30 into inspiration for shattered conditions anymore. I may even think about swapping the daze mantra for stability, but would take more away from the lockdown focus.

Cool ideas. I really like them.

After the patch notes leaked – which I assumed to be legit – I worked on a Mantra Medic build. It’s quite obviously a support build and should be nice for WvW (zerging, small to medium group fights). It might also be nice for roaming and PvP as long as you are accompanied by a teammate. Since the heals do not scale with healing power that well, I decided to go for condition damage and toughness so I can also deal damage while healing.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fgAQNArdWl4zioHSTmGb9IhJFEH5neo8l78SKmdsB-jwCBofJDpJQYNg00gkIDRLHaRjZSBtMsIasKZCp6ZRWdDTKAImGB-e

skcamow.3527:

I like the ideas here. Incidentally, I posted a lockdown/support mantra build yesterday:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Lockdown-The-Underexplored-Playstyle/first#post2827202

This was before I knew about the upcoming changes. That AoE condition cleanse is going to be powerful and won’t require mesmers to go 30 into inspiration for shattered conditions anymore. I may even think about swapping the daze mantra for stability, but would take more away from the lockdown focus.

Looks nice. I tried the following condition mantra build in hotjoin yesterday. I felt that ranged weapons are more suitable for mantras because of the recast. Did okay but not great. I had trouble recasting the Mantras and I am also not used to fighting with the scepter.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fgAQNArcWl4zyoHSTmGb9IhJFE33keYaWv6SKi9tB-ToAAzCuIKStjbHTRyds7MEZJC

Figured I might try the following next time.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fgAQNArcWl4zyoHSTmGb9IhJFE33nUkcnT6hpZ9qB-ToAg2CuIKStjbHTRyds7MEZJC

Just thinking out loud here: the major weakness of mantras is that they take a long time to cast. However, once you cast them, they stay up until you expend them or die— so why not just stack them up and hold onto them until you absolutely need them? Empowering Mantras gives you 4% more damage for every Mantra you have readied, which, if you stack up as many as possible, results in a flat 16% damage boost, which in my experience affects Mind Wrack in addition to your other direct damage. It’s yet another big damage boost you can throw on top of Precise Wrack and Mental Torment to get that much more shatter damage— while still having at least one each of an instant interrupt, a two-condition cleanse, and a stun-break/stability combo without losing any damage.

But, since I’ve never heard of the Almighty Mantra-Stacking Shatter Build before, and the tools to make it have always been there, I’m guessing there’s at least a few good reasons why it actually isn’t viable for sPvP.

Actually, if I were to use mantras outside of a support build, I’d go for a PU build or one with decoy, at least. Not like you can charge all mantras while stealthed, but I’ve been playing with MoRecovery and MoResolve and have not had much problems charging them up.

It’s clearly not the best mechanism out there, and could get another CT reduction/be reworked, but their downsides are lessened on a PU+Condition build.

Also, just in case someone doesn’t know, MoRecovery can proc Lyssa’s random boon while casting and while spending the charges, which can be “useful” when combined with a boon spreading build.

Also, great idea ^^

Kupi.7864:

Just thinking out loud here: the major weakness of mantras is that they take a long time to cast. However, once you cast them, they stay up until you expend them or die— so why not just stack them up and hold onto them until you absolutely need them? Empowering Mantras gives you 4% more damage for every Mantra you have readied, which, if you stack up as many as possible, results in a flat 16% damage boost, which in my experience affects Mind Wrack in addition to your other direct damage. It’s yet another big damage boost you can throw on top of Precise Wrack and Mental Torment to get that much more shatter damage— while still having at least one each of an instant interrupt, a two-condition cleanse, and a stun-break/stability combo without losing any damage.

Got to disagree on this one.

Based on the traits available I see two different playstyles for mantras. One focusses on keeping them up (extra charge, extra damage = offensive builds) while the other one aims at constantly recharging them (heal on mantra = bunker and support builds). You might argue that those might be combined but thats just impossible because of the way the traits are spread across traitlines. You could play a hybrid build, of course.

The build you describe does not deal with the main issue of mantras (recast) it just delays it. Empowering Mantras punishes you for using your mantras because you will want to keep them up. I really dislike this traits because it makes mantras way too similar to signets. Additionally, using Harmonious and Empowering Mantras at once makes the weakness of mantras even worse because you won’t be able to do anything when recharging. You are not healing (no Restorative Mantras). You got fewer stealth options (Decoy/Veil). You can’t blink away.

Regarding shatter builds you will have to figure out if giving up Illusionary Persona or Imbued Diversion for Harmonious Mantras and/or Empowering Mantras is worth it. Probably not. You could go for Illusionary Persona and Empowering Mantras but then will miss out on Shattered Conditions. You could go for Illusionary Persona and Harmonious Mantras but you will miss out on Deceptive Evasion. In both cases you will be quite squishy and very very vulnerable when recharging.

Gizuko.5734:

Actually, if I were to use mantras outside of a support build, I’d go for a PU build or one with decoy, at least. Not like you can charge all mantras while stealthed, but I’ve been playing with MoRecovery and MoResolve and have not had much problems charging them up.

It’s clearly not the best mechanism out there, and could get another CT reduction/be reworked, but their downsides are lessened on a PU+Condition build.

Also, just in case someone doesn’t know, MoRecovery can proc Lyssa’s random boon while casting and while spending the charges, which can be “useful” when combined with a boon spreading build.

Also, great idea ^^

I agree that stealth is very nice for mantras. I just wonder how many builds can successfully get PU and the respective mantra traits. They are just way too far up in the traitlines.

Regarding Lyssa… there still is the internal cooldown of 10s. You can also only share your boons every 36s. I do not see the mantra heal being better than any other heal in this case.

Well, although the build I’m referring to revolves around PU, it doesn’t get torch, and cleanses condis through mantras. Therefore it falls a bit in between the two uses you mentioned: It’s good to have them ready and use them, since you don’t get +%damage out of them, but it is also good to charge them, since they provide a small AoE heal.

Basic idea is mender’s purity removing 2 conditions through MoRec, but having MoRes for cleansing when needed. The runes of Lyssa combo was only so that you would heal at ~70% health and keep the boons and condi removal (although the trait doesn’t proc on charge up) coming.

But yeah, forgot about that, you can’t really utilize that method to share boons.

http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?fgAQNAW7fl4zCpnSTgGb9IhpHBH5A/kCo7cSKK9rB-T0AA1CmI6S1lrLTXSvseNaY1w+jzHvNA

My take on a mantra support build. Its a lil bit of protecton master with mantra support. and group stability. I may put cleansing inscriptions for that extra little condi clear on myself. This is more boon focused then it is condition clearing focused. But 8s Group AOE stab with a butt load of protection aint bad. The real question… Will this actually make mantras viable? I am still shaking my head at the ~3s cast time.

I’m thinking of making a full mantra spec for full bunker Mesmer in a zerg situation for wvw. It would be 30 20 0 20 0 using the 3 mantras and aoe healing. Could be a really neat build for running with a zerg. I would use recovery, pain, resolve, and concentration (Of course if full mantras doesn’t work I would change it ).

I think Matra’s are solid, I like them but I don’t think that the “Mantra” related perks are in the right trees. Currently they are spread over 3 entire trees! that’s redic. 2 Uses of a mantra is never enough imo and honestly they need to have a perk that grants stability while casting a mantra. I think there are a lot of things wrong with the class right now and these changes are not them… I do like the changes though, they make some definite power in PVP and WVW and honestly they are just less “combo” combo fields… On demand removal of that much is like a pure counter to necro condition builds.

My problem with any “Support” build is always that it finds itself lacking compared to more damage, that’s just the nature of the game right now. Organize the mantra perks into 2 trees max and move the 3 use down a slot into a tier 2 perk in a tree, making it more accessible because honestly asking 3 into dominion is a lot for such a core aspect of using mantras.

That’s a good point. But who knows what they can change between now and October. It would be nice to have stability while having mantras being cast.

the problem with mantras is that they can get interrupted quite to easily and in the current spam meta, they are not really viable yet. also the traitlines for mantras are pretty random.

While all these are good points, I think it’s important to remember the various ways to “counter” interrupting our mantra charges.

• Stability mantra. Ok, kinda lame – doesn’t 100% protect you and you have to take that extra mantra.
• Daze. Daze mantra, F3, Magic Bullet, Counter Blade, etc. Use your dazes to buy you time to charge mantras.
• Blind. Counterspell, Signet of Midnight, glamours (if traited), on interrupt via chaotic interruption (though random).
• During a Chaos Storm. The storm is so chaotic (huh, huh) that it’s hard to see what the mesmer is doing if standing in it. Great time to charge a mantra.
• Stealth. Probably the most spoken of way to pretty much guarantee a mantra charge.
• Distortion. Probably the best way to charge a mantra, though I never hear talk about this one. Even one clone/second can buy you enough time.

When planning builds with heavy mantra use, using these methods will help prevent being interrupted, at least some of the time.

True but what does it really gain you? It’s not like mantra’s are doing anything spectacular compared to other abilities that have “bonus effects”. I think that’s what’s most underwhelming about mantras. They have this pre-cast time vs their ability to be instant cast, but they have always been underwhelming. Even when you pair the mantras with other traits in the trees they are underwhelming.

Pretty much all of the above is understood, which is why I like the healing mantra paired with the condition removal on heal + 3 use to basically free up a slot for something else. Even the daze is underwhelming because when paired with “interrupt” abilities you cry because most abilities are instant cast anyways.

So essentially mesmers are being turned into a “win harder” class in pvp support where having a mantra mesmer frees up slots in other peoples skills for more powerful effects since the pocket mesmer can cleanse everything 3 times instantly without a problem! It’s just unimaginative and weak and shows the basic weakness of the mantra concept.

Where’s the “Mesmer” part in mantras? Give the abilities more juice, a blink mantra, or a mantra that gives stealth. How about a mantra that gives chaos shield or perks that augment mantras with additional effects. Honestly go back to the mesmer class and read what you defined them as… Illusionists, tricksters, magical duelists where misdirection and confusion is everything! To bad thieves do all that better from a “feels right” standpoint.

It gains you valuable knowledge on how best to get your mantras charged, and the one spectacular thing they absolutely do is AoE heal in a support role. The new AoE condi-clear will be obviously much better as you stated. Will it be spectacular? Likely not but we’re getting somewhere. If they lowered the charge time by another 1/2 second we could maybe really start seeing more use.

I’m not going to argue mantras need a buff, I’m in agreement all the way there. Just offering a reminder on some of the ways it can make using them easier.

skcamow.3527:

While all these are good points, I think it’s important to remember the various ways to “counter” interrupting our mantra charges.

Also, consider range (blink) and line of sight or more situational things like standing inside the iWarden bubble against ranged opponents.

Menaka.5092:

skcamow.3527:

While all these are good points, I think it’s important to remember the various ways to “counter” interrupting our mantra charges.

Also, consider range (blink) and line of sight or more situational things like standing inside the iWarden bubble against ranged opponents.

Yep, more good points.

All of these are very good points do this so you can get your mantra cast off. Go invis stand in warden bubble, stand inside chaos storm, do it while distortioned. All good points however it doesn’t change the fact that for about 3sec you are doing nothing but shouting something. You may be healing your group for a bit (3k only really stands out to some classes), or you may be doing nothing at all but charging mantras….

However unless you are stealthed, or invulned (only real ways to gaurantee you are getting it off) your mantra is still a huge target over your head that lets everyone know where the real mesmer is as well as letting them know you are completely and totally helpless… And if you get a single mantra interrupted especially your heal your MOC you are kinda toast.
I think the perfect cast time for mantras would be somewhere between 2-2.5s. I know it doesn’t seem much compared to the current 2.75s But I think it will be the buff that mesmer really needs for mantras because right now the effective cooldown of all mantras is 3s longer than the stated cooldown. Not very ideal. I would be more than okay if say “blurred inscriptions” was changed to “blurred meditations” with an ICD of course that way mesmers don’t run around the map just spamming MOP being invuln and perma healing their allies.

Haftoof Dustpaw.2936:

I think Matra’s are solid, I like them but I don’t think that the “Mantra” related perks are in the right trees. Currently they are spread over 3 entire trees! that’s redic. 2 Uses of a mantra is never enough imo and honestly they need to have a perk that grants stability while casting a mantra. …[snip]…

Totally agree. I would prefer all Mantra traits being either in Duelling and/or Inspiration. The only reason why it could be justified to have Harmonious Mantras in Domination is when combining it with Mantra of Distraction. No other mantra suits the theme of Domination.

Stability while casting would be a great replacement for Protected Mantras. The toughness is okay but meh. Would have to be a grandmaster trait, though. Otherwise it would be way too powerful/easy to access when combined with Restorative Mantras. The Mantra of Concentration might also need a slight rework. It could also grant fury?

A re-work could look like this:
_________________________________________________________________
Duelling

Mantra Mastery
Adept
CD reduction traits are adepts traits in most cases. Why not this one?

Empowering Mantras
Master
Could stay as it is right now but would be moved down a tier.

Protected Mantras
Grand Master
Grants stability while charging mantras. Fits here because you will have to recharge your mantras infight.

Inspiration

Restorative Mantras
Master
Stays as it is.

Harmonious Mantras
Grand Master
Replaces Restorative Illusions. I do not see why a Phantasm focussed tree should have TWO shatter focussed grand master traits. It would also make for great support builds because you could have 3 charges of condition cleanse etc.
_________________________________________________________________

So theoretically you could go x/30/x/20/x but will have to sacrifice a lot for getting a steady heal and stability.

The problem is that somewhere towards the end of beta Anet totally changed how mantras worked.
Mantras originally were powerful single cast spells that were instant but needed charging.
(I think also the charge time was longer than what we have now)
So for example Mantra of Resolve cured all conditions on one cast but then needed charging again’
The problem was it made the Harmonious Mantras trait a little over powered as it gave you two insta casts of quite powerful spells.
So the effects were watered down and given two casts instead of one and three with Harmonious mantras.
(which is why Mantra of resolve has the strange description ‘cures ALL (of two) conditions’
So the core designe of how mantras were supposed to work completely changed- powerful spells that were balanced by having long charge times and an ‘all in’ mechanic became mediocre spells that still needed charging.

Empowering Mantras was also changed from 5% damage per charged mantra down to 3% (which was later changed back up to 4%)
Personally i think this number should have stayed at 5% as what you have to give up to get a possible 20% extra damage is quite substantial (all utility and heal slots needed) and is also a (grandmaster) 30 point trait.
Compare Empowering Mantras to Warriors ‘Merciless Hammer’ (master) 20 point trait which increases damage by 25% and only requires the target to be crippled and also reduces the cooldown of hammer skills by 20%

So my suggestions for mantras, if theyre to be made useful;

Traits:

Empowering mantras should be changed back to at least 5% damage per charged mantra and also include the trait ‘Mantra Mastery’ (reduce the cooldown by 20%)

Protected Mantras should grant protection while mantras are being charged and 50 toughness per charged mantra.

Restorative Mantras should heal nearby allies when you cast a mantra and grant 50 healing power per charged mantra.

Mantras;
Mantra of Distraction ; Dazes your target and grants the mesmer 1 second of stealth (used to break being targeted which people can now do without being grouped)

Mantra of concentration : breaks stuns, grants stability (2 seconds) and swiftness (10 seconds)

Mantra of pain ; Cripple target (3 seconds) and apply (2) stacks of torment

Fade.5904:

So my suggestions for mantras, if theyre to be made useful;

Traits:

Empowering mantras should be changed back to at least 5% damage per charged mantra and also include the trait ‘Mantra Mastery’ (reduce the cooldown by 20%)

Protected Mantras should grant protection while mantras are being charged and 50 toughness per charged mantra.

Restorative Mantras should heal nearby allies when you cast a mantra and grant 50 healing power per charged mantra.

Mantras;
Mantra of Distraction ; Dazes your target and grants the mesmer 1 second of stealth (used to break being targeted which people can now do without being grouped)

Mantra of concentration : breaks stuns, grants stability (2 seconds) and swiftness (10 seconds)

Mantra of pain ; Cripple target (3 seconds) and apply (2) stacks of torment

Don’t you think that Empowering Mantras would be too powerful then?

I do like the idea of adding a passive effect to the other traits. I am just not sure if the +50 stat stuff will make them more attractive. It also reminds me of signets way too much. What about Protected Mantras adding a 5% chance to proc 3s Protection when hit (15s ICD) per charged Mantra and Restorative Mantras proccing AE Regeneration or an AE heal?

I really dislike your idea for Mantra of Distraction. A 1s stealth is not worth getting “Revealed” several seconds. This might seriously screw you up. Torment on the Mantra of Pain would be nice, though, and is something people requested several times.

Honestly I don’t know of anyone that ever whined about mantras… There was some hidden group that thought that the power of mantras were ever to stronk? If so I’ve never heard it. Mantra’s have always been underpowered because of their “Precast” nature. The fact that they are one of the few “Interruptable” spells… makes them just like every “Long cast time spell”, except I can’t name a single spell that has a long cast time that can’t be stupidly covered (I’m looking at you earthruption elementalists).

Mantra mesmers playing as support (talking PVP.WVW here) might be too tricky to counter other than that one opening which is the moment they need to charge their mantras again. I agree that mantras should have been what they were originally intended for: powerful insta cast abilities but with a long charge time. Now, they can be used more than once (2 untraited, 3 traited) but the effects were brought down too far. Now, seeing that mantras are still avoided like the plague other than some niche uses, they are trying to buff the effects again this time by giving it some sort of support role. This is a very nice move IMO, however as I have said earlier, it might be too powerful in a group fight (PVP) because mantras are instantly cast so there is no chance of preventing a group wide stability or cleanse unless the mesmer is focused or killed instantly. It’s like the new fresh air trait for eles which allow for frequent instant single target burst that can hardly be countered except for random dodges and blocks and blinds but no one is complaining since eles are lame and useless anyways.

Boon sharing mesmers with staff and sword or scepter/focus with inspiration signet may possibly be an alternative bunker guardian but I think it may require the team composition to build accordingly to the mesmer’s support style.

I’m so hyped about this since I love Signet of Inspiration

ugh support, again….as if i wasnt already forced to be a veil/tw/nulfield bot, now those warriors will demand me to bring that stupid mantra to support their hammerwarrior train.i thought this game had no helaer/tank/dps separation, but anet seems to want us to be weak supports that hit as hard as a butterfly. awesome….
i dont like healer classes and support only. not my style and never ever will be! i dont mind using a few support utilities, but i would like to tag and deal dmg to a zerg aswell. darn spvp is screwing everything up!

We’ll still have the nuisance of ‘readied mantra’ icons giving away which of us isn’t a clone. Should be first on the priority list for any mantra changes.

selan.8354:

but i would like to tag and deal dmg to a zerg aswell.

Yeah, this is the main reason everybody and his pet dog equips zerker gears. I feel you man. I want to play support and at the same time get the chance to loot. Mob tagging is just stupid.

Gallrvaghn.4921:

selan.8354:

but i would like to tag and deal dmg to a zerg aswell.

Yeah, this is the main reason everybody and his pet dog equips zerker gears. I feel you man. I want to play support and at the same time get the chance to loot. Mob tagging is just stupid.

the problem is that we are duelists and a lot of our dps come from clones(shatter) or phantasms. clones and phantasms die very quickly in big group and zerg fights, so we lose our dps. in spvp i feel way more powerful than in wvw as our trailines are super messy for wvw. we lack a lot of aoe in zergs. i know some people like support roles and this buff could be great for them and their builds, but i porsonally dislike support builds.

These buffs of mantras are quite interresting and open new way to be a part of zerg. At first i was disapointed by this news, but after a moment i think we cant do something with that.
I wish we had an access to combo ( beginner or finisher perhaps on mantra of resolve), and a way to charge mantra easier for those who ll play with 2 or 3 mantra at the same time. (perhaps cast 2 mantras in a raw, or a buff on trait protect mantras 2-20%// cast -30% cast). But i m certainly a dreamer^^…
@ Selan even if you turn around your zerg it s too dangerous to play berserker imo.

chat.4062:

These buffs of mantras are quite interresting and open new way to be a part of zerg. At first i was disapointed by this news, but after a moment i think we cant do something with that.
I wish we had an access to combo ( beginner or finisher perhaps on mantra of resolve), and a way to charge mantra easier for those who ll play with 2 or 3 mantra at the same time. (perhaps cast 2 mantras in a raw, or a buff on trait protect mantras 2-20%// cast -30% cast). But i m certainly a dreamer^^…
@ Selan even if you turn around your zerg it s too dangerous to play berserker imo.

thats why i dont play zerker in wvw. so we are stuck as a roaming support veilbot in wvw. thats what upsets me. i hope anet destroys a lot of the 1v1 things in wvw, so we can at least get something for wvw…..

I see a lot of possibility with these new Mantra changes.

• MoConcentration - What people underestimate is that this ability can be chained together. With 50% boon duration, you’re looking at 3 seconds of stability per charge. With Harmonious/Cooldown Mantras that means we’re putting out 9 seconds of stability every 20 seconds which means that our group will have stability nearly 50% of the time .

• MoResolve - With the same two traits, Mantra of Resolve becomes our best condition removal next to Null Field.

So taking that into account, I came up with this.. Apothecary’s, Rabid, Berserker’s, or Rampager’s depending on whether damage or healing is a priority.. Still not sure if Condition damage is the best choice here.

30/20/0/20/0
Sword (or Scepter)/Torch – Staff
DOMINATION
(V) – Support and control go hand-in-hand. Having our clones do AoE cripple on death is a huge help vs cleaves and for allies trying to escape.

(IX) -Torch will be imporant for both charging mantras safely and AoE Chaos Armor

(XI) – While having more Mantra charges makes our AoE heal take longer, the stability and condition removal are higher priority anyways.

DUELING
(VI) – When charging mantras, an extra 400 toughness is more than welcome.. Especially in gear that lacks toughness/vitality.

(VII) – Mantra cooldowns, ’nuff said.

INSPIRATION
(I) – Medic’s Feedback is great for a few reasons. Its another Ethereal Field for us to combo off of, a source of damage via reflects, and of course makes rezzing easier. Great for WvW.
(X) – The main reason I take MoPain in a support build is for the rapid healing. If you’re going Zerker, MoPain is a nice 3000 damage every 6 or so secs.

- Link to Build -

Torch – Stealth for mantra charging, BLAST finisher for AoE Chaos Armor
Staff – 6 of the 9 boons in the game right here along with awesome damage mitigation and a much-needed mobility boost. Additionally, Chaos Storm dumps loads of debilitating conditions on enemies and can net anywhere from 2k – 4k damage in a zerker build.. Can Phase Retreat without interrupting Mantra charges, and Chaos Armor/Storm also helps charge safely
.
Since I’m going 30 domination and using a torch/staff, “CONDITION BUILD!!” screams out at me.. but I could see a full zerker build making good use too… I can’t say for sure yet but I’ll definitely be experimenting with the above setup.

(Sorry if someone already posted the same trait spread, I only looked through a few builds.. I’m loving Fay and jPortell’s setups too)

Chaos Archangel.5071:

I see a lot of possibility with these new Mantra changes.

• MoConcentration - What people underestimate is that this ability can be chained together.

Just FYI, power break has a 2 second CD.
EDIT: So you lose a couple seconds there with 50% boon duration. Just tested with 75% boon duration and a stopwatch – if you chain them one after another you get 9 seconds continuous stability.

That doesnt make sense though. Should be 3 secs with 50% boon. (I know my math cant be THAT bad.)

And 2 secs Stability on a 2 sec cooldown is spammable.. Maybe Stability doesnt stack duration? (Forgive typos. exiled to my phone)

Chaos Archangel.5071:

That doesnt make sense though. Should be 3 secs with 50% boon. (I know my math cant be THAT bad.)

And 2 secs Stability on a 2 sec cooldown is spammable.. Maybe Stability doesnt stack duration? (Forgive typos. exiled to my phone)

I did the test again and you’re right. Sorry not sure what happened there. It does stack duration. With 75% boon duration, you get 10.85s of stability. 50% gives you 9.25s. You’ll get a small 1/10 +/- variance due to the ability to hit it just as it comes off CD but that’s very close.

Check out my Shutdown build; https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Guide-CeiMash-s-Shutdown-Mesmer/first#post2848154

Uses full mantras and it’s pretty fun to play as well.

@Dirame, this is not directed at your post. I’ve had these concerns in my head for several days and just now had the time to post.

I’ve been playing my “Eccho-rupt” build which is centered around Mantra of Distraction for 4-5 months. I enjoy it, although in the current meta in sPvP, I’ve had to make some adjustments. I still enjoy my build and its the closest thing to my GW1 Mesmer that I’ve gotten in GW2.

From my experience in sPvP, there is an issue with Mantra’s that never seems to be discussed in the forums. (At least not directly.) The title of the thread is “Mantra Viability”, and quite a few “respected” mesmer players in this thread and I thought this would be a good place to bring it up.

IMHO, (and this is directed specifically at sPvP ) Mantra’s are viable with the following guidelines.

- A single Mantra is viable. 2 mantra’s are doable, but beyond that mantras become a hinderance.
- No matter what build make up, Mantra of Recovery is the worse healing spell for sPvP.

There is a single reason for the above “guidelines”: “The Mesmer downstate resets ALL mantras.”

In sPvP, how well a team manages downed players is critical to a match. As a Mesmer running with MoR as a healing spell, you are a liability when rez’d. You are as weak as a kitten, it will take you 2.75 secs before you can even get your first heal off. You’re not helping your team (that just risked their necks to rez you) because your charging your healing spell. You can decoy and then charge (if its off cooldown) or you can “run away”. Either way, for 3 seconds, you are a liability and a sitting duck. The enemy just has to sneeze at you and your back down.

Hey, Mantra of Recovery and Mender’s Purity is Awesome. Mantra of Recovery and Runes of Lyssa is great. Mantra of Recovery and the downstate SUCKS! I’ve found my self screaming at my teammates.. DON"T REZ ME, because I know I’ll just be back down in 2 seconds or I’ll just runaway and hide leaving my team behind. So I stopped selecting MoR in sPvP.

This is also why having 2 or more mantra’s in sPvP is not recommended. Because the longer a fight is prolonged, the longer the mantra’s recharge affects the outcome. At some point, your going to have to recharge those Mantras. If you have 1 mantra, you can squeeze in a recharge with Decoy, or a blink, phase retreat or MI etc. but more Mantra’s + a prolonged battle = a matter of time before you are no longer effective.

Your enemy is fighting you and his skill cooldowns, you are fighting your enemy, skill cooldowns and a recharge mechanic.

Should mantra’s retain their charge thru the downstate? I don’t know? It would certainly help. I just don’t know if that’s the answer. I do think that if there is any change on how mantra are charged, the effects of the downstate need to be considered. And right now, its one of the biggest blackeyes and sPvP barriers mantras come with.

I’d be curious what some of the more “wiser” Mesmer’s out there think about this.

SlimChance.6593:

Awesome things were said…

The funny thing is that I also don’t like the idea of charging up my heal skill which is why I opted for Ether feast in the build rather than MoR. Yes, if a fight is prolonged, mantras become a liability and the ability to reset is crucial to making them effective. I consider it part of the way the build should be played. They could probably do something to alleviate that a little bit though.

The thing about team fights is that, you should be able to count on your teammates to peel for you. You shouldn’t really need MoC if your Guardian has stability, you shouldn’t really need MoRes if your Guardian still has shouts to clear conditions so all you need to focus on is MoD which can be used offensively and defensively. When you do get a chance though, it’s best to have all of them charged up but you definitely have to do a priority check each time you have one or all of them on CD in a team fight.

Also, if you play with Staff, using Chaos storm and casting your mantras in it is another cool way of ensuring that you can charge all of them up without being interrupted or getting trained down (if the enemy doesn’t have stability that is).

Chaos Archangel.5071:

• MoConcentration - What people underestimate is that this ability can be chained together. With 50% boon duration, you’re looking at 3 seconds of stability per charge. With Harmonious/Cooldown Mantras that means we’re putting out 9 seconds of stability every 20 seconds which means that our group will have stability nearly 50% of the time .

Yeah, the one thing I love more about this is you can double that duration for your party mates with Signet of Inspiration! Hoahahaha! I’m so excited about this patch!

First a question to all of you: What would you do to improve mantras and their traits to make them viable in PvP if you could?

tetrodoxin.2134:

I never checked how much it heals.

The healing power scaling on Restorative mantras isn’t amazing if you go full on healing power you may peak it just over 3k per cast if I remember correctly.

I actually really like your trait layout, I just wish Protected Mantras was more useful than just adding 400 toughness.

skcamow.3527:

That AoE condition cleanse is going to be powerful and won’t require mesmers to go 30 into inspiration for shattered conditions anymore. I may even think about swapping the daze mantra for stability, but would take more away from the lockdown focus.

Daze has always been one of the best mantras for PvP for it’s effectiveness in completely shutting people down the problem with it is of course that it’s single target and takes considerable time to charge + cooldowns and because of it other utility has been preferable to equip over MoD as there are options more reliable, faster and more effective.

The daze mantra is viable on it’s own to go along with a build but I don’t think it fits in with a viable full on mantra build as such. Despite lockdown builds being powerful with it being a condition heavy meta, dazes don’t stop conditions once applied.

Xaylin.1860:

I felt that ranged weapons are more suitable for mantras because of the recast. Did okay but not great. I had trouble recasting the Mantras and I am also not used to fighting with the scepter.

Yes, scepter is definitely still subpar with it being a hybrid weapon. The reason I used it myself in the above builds is for torment which will make your opponent want to move less to avoid damage giving you time to move away from them and the occasional clone to shatter for condition removal will also be helpful.

Sword is too much designed to get you near your enemy. Scepter helps you to stay more mobile and since you are focused on support not damage it can be somewhat ignored that the scepter does mediocre damage.

Kupi.7864:

I’m guessing there’s at least a few good reasons why it actually isn’t viable for sPvP.

This is what you’d want to do if you tried running a daze/damage mantra build but the problem is that you forgo so much defense sacrificing utility and defensive stats that it makes you far too vulnerable to make it realistically viable. You essentially significantly cripple yourself for a little bit extra damage which isn’t worth it.

Haftoof Dustpaw.2936:

I think Matra’s are solid, I like them but I don’t think that the “Mantra” related perks are in the right trees. Currently they are spread over 3 entire trees! that’s redic.

The mantra traits are one major problem. They’re all over the place and contradictory in purpose that it’s difficult to make a build around it. As for support lacking, well that’s what I’m hoping to find out. Right now Mesmers aren’t up to par as a damage spec because of the conditions making other professions preferable.

But if our support is strong enough and as useful as a for example guardians then we may be able to fill a role there that people want. The role being to counter the millions of conditions flying around. If it works out in practice it could be a very strong build.

Like everyone else I’m concerned by the time requirement to cast mantras and how vulnerable it makes you while casting it. Will it pay off? Won’t know till we get our hands on trying the new AOE mantras and try it out in practice.

selan.8354:

the problem with mantras is that they can get interrupted quite to easily and in the current spam meta, they are not really viable yet. also the traitlines for mantras are pretty random.

This is definitely their weakness and that’s why you want to try to mitigate it with stealth and your team supporting you but it’s tough going that is for sure but the upcoming changes might just push them over the edge of being viable. There is potential there but it’s hard to say till it’s tried.

selan.8354:

the problem is that we are duelists and a lot of our dps come from clones(shatter) or phantasms.

That’s the great thing about mantras though, you don’t rely on your phantasms/clones as much as you would normally. I just think right now the difficulty/time requirement to deal with mantras does not pay off properly.

Chaos Archangel.5071:

- Link to Build -

Good build setup! Seems like we all seem to come up with different variations hoping to achieve a similar thing. It will be interesting to try all the different setups to see what works best in practice.

Fay.2735:

The healing power scaling on Restorative mantras isn’t amazing if you go full on healing power you may peak it just over 3k per cast if I remember correctly.

I actually really like your trait layout, I just wish Protected Mantras was more useful than just adding 400 toughness.

Yeah I noticed that, 3kish sounds about right.
Anyways, I just did some SoloQing with the build and it worked surprisingly good, even without the upcoming Mantra buff. The healing/bunkering isn’t as good as a fully dedicated bunker on other classes (still good), but I love the (almost) perma-reflections onpoint. You’re nullifying alot of damage right there.

Getting Mantras ready felt like a 50/50 chance. If I had Chaos Storm or Stability ready, no problem. Or just place your Curtain and then pull enemies away while casting.

So yeah, I agree with Protective Mantras. 400 Toughness sounds nice, but it doesn’t have much impact. I’d prefer protection and stability while casting. That would really make it an outstanding trait. It should then obviously be moved to Master tier.

SlimChance.6593:

- A bit of brilliance infused into thread -

I’d be curious what some of the more “wiser” Mesmer’s out there think about this.

I hope I don’t count as a “wiser” Mesmer. =[

I was dungeon running with Fay and Pyro once, I made a “running away like a wet girl” crack AND a lude “That’s what she said..” joke.

… Then Fay beat me up in sPvP.

To your point, that’s actually a really huge issue that should be addressed ASAP; Mantras shouldn’t lose their charge when downed.

But that’s why I always run staff whenever I’m running Mantras, Phase Retreat and Chaos Storm + Armor are such great defenses for charging (and would help a bit with the getting up from downed issue).

Also, with the build I posted, I the Stability mantra would allow me to charge the other mantras unmolested. Still, it’ll have to be put into practice before I can really say how well it works.

I’ve used MoRecovery + Pain for a while in sPvP while I was trying to come up with a sort of Bunker/Healer (Had mixed results. I still feel Mes mechanics make us lousy bunkers) and with Cleric’s gear at least, MoRecovery was working really well. Having a high regeneration obviously was also a big help, but I didn’t have too much issue charging Recovery mid fight (I was interrupted a couple times, but MoPain also healed me when charged). I know in theory it feels like you’ll be interrupted nearly every time you use a Mantra, but in practice its actually not too bad.

I use MoRecovery way earlier than I would for Ether feast to keep me constantly topped off, so even when I was interrupted I still had some life/defenses to spare. That being said, I only tried it for a couple days. In PvE/WvW I have very little issue though, and I live by MoRecovery/MoPain/Regeneration for heals there.

(Btw, I hope you don’t mind I added your build to the Lockdown list)

Yes, I saw that. I’m flattered that it was listed. I made that build post months ago before the current condition meta came to be. Got hardly any responses at the time.

I still play it. I’ve dropped the GS in place of staff (like you mentioned) and have started to equip carrion jewels to up my condition damage. It seems to be working and I think once the current PvP meta gets “shaved” down. It will be more viable. I guess I should update my recent changes. And since there’s all the buzz now on interrupting potential.

But to my post, I do think we should keep our charges on down and ANet should fix the bug that resets mantras as soon as my foot touches water. If ANet really wants Mesmer’s to use mantra’s more, these 2 things alone will make them so less clunky for the player base.

Oh, and to answer Fay’s question, I think something like a .4 reduction of Mantra cast time would be perfect.

Someone also had the idea that Mantras begin their cooldown immediately after being charged, the way Mimic/Echo does. I like that idea a lot too.

Chaos Archangel.5071:

I hope I don’t count as a “wiser” Mesmer. =[

I was dungeon running with Fay and Pyro once, I made a “running away like a wet girl” crack AND a lude “That’s what she said..” joke.

… Then Fay beat me up in sPvP.

Haha! You aren’t that bad give yourself some credit

Chaos Archangel.5071:

To your point, that’s actually a really huge issue that should be addressed ASAP; Mantras shouldn’t lose their charge when downed.

But that’s why I always run staff whenever I’m running Mantras, Phase Retreat and Chaos Storm + Armor are such great defenses for charging (and would help a bit with the getting up from downed issue).

Also, with the build I posted, I the Stability mantra would allow me to charge the other mantras unmolested. Still, it’ll have to be put into practice before I can really say how well it works.

I’ve used MoRecovery + Pain for a while in sPvP while I was trying to come up with a sort of Bunker/Healer (Had mixed results. I still feel Mes mechanics make us lousy bunkers) and with Cleric’s gear at least, MoRecovery was working really well. Having a high regeneration obviously was also a big help, but I didn’t have too much issue charging Recovery mid fight (I was interrupted a couple times, but MoPain also healed me when charged). I know in theory it feels like you’ll be interrupted nearly every time you use a Mantra, but in practice its actually not too bad.

I use MoRecovery way earlier than I would for Ether feast to keep me constantly topped off, so even when I was interrupted I still had some life/defenses to spare. That being said, I only tried it for a couple days. In PvE/WvW I have very little issue though, and I live by MoRecovery/MoPain/Regeneration for heals there.

(Btw, I hope you don’t mind I added your build to the Lockdown list)

Staff is definitely great for Mantra charging with phase retreat which is another reason why support/condition builds are preferable as Staff and Torch both give that much needed moment in time to charge Mantras.

Chaos Archangel.5071:

Oh, and to answer Fay’s question, I think something like a .4 reduction of Mantra cast time would be perfect.

Someone also had the idea that Mantras begin their cooldown immediately after being charged, the way Mimic/Echo does. I like that idea a lot too.

Another cast decrease would definitely help and also the cooldown. Good ideas!

I’m going to be testing this following build when the changes take place I decided to pick 3x mantra trait over the 20% mantra recharge reduction as I feel it will be more efficient and less time wasted charging mantras.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fgAQNAW7fl4zipHRTkGb9IxpHQ35Tn0jS/6VXqQsB-T0AA1CmIuRdj7GzNybs3MaY1w+jTDvGA

Im still torn between MoPain for heals and MoDistraction for control/safer mantra charges.

Hey Fay how did you change font size?

Chaos Archangel.5071:

Im still torn between MoPain for heals and MoDistraction for control/safer mantra charges.

Hey Fay how did you change font size?

The forum uses Textile Formatting I use that to format my posts.

Because the build I devised is heavily focused on healing/condition removal to combat conditions MoP is preferable as you can get more healing output when required. You can of course swap it out for MoD or MoC whatever your team requires more but I like the extra bit of damage you can do with MoP to make up for some of the loss of damage due to stats as well as do damage while casting other mantras.

Fay.2735:

Chaos Archangel.5071:

Im still torn between MoPain for heals and MoDistraction for control/safer mantra charges.

Hey Fay how did you change font size?

The forum uses Textile Formatting I use that to format my posts.

Because the build I devised is heavily focused on healing/condition removal to combat conditions MoP is preferable as you can get more healing output when required. You can of course swap it out for MoD or MoC whatever your team requires more but I like the extra bit of damage you can do with MoP to make up for some of the loss of damage due to stats as well as do damage while casting other mantras.

Our AoE condition cleansing is going to be obscene as it is, but throw null field in there for blink, trait glamour reduction instead of mender’s purity (because you will be “passively” cleansing yourself constantly anyway) and it starts getting a bit ludicrous. No class can come even close to this without blast finishers. Plus that AoE boon strip = amazing on points.

skcamow.3527:

Our AoE condition cleansing is going to be obscene as it is, but throw null field in there for blink, trait glamour reduction instead of mender’s purity (because you will be “passively” cleansing yourself constantly anyway) and it starts getting a bit ludicrous. No class can come even close to this without blast finishers. Plus that AoE boon strip = amazing on points.

That’s the idea and the way we can be useful again as we’d be the hard counter against the condition meta. I wouldn’t go full on condition removal as you already have the shatter and mantra condition removal + the healing to counter condition damage. Adding nullfield to it is unnecessary for condition removal but the boon removal would be a plus. I think there are a lot of variations and options you can go for depending on your teams requirement.

Fay.2735:

skcamow.3527:

Our AoE condition cleansing is going to be obscene as it is, but throw null field in there for blink, trait glamour reduction instead of mender’s purity (because you will be “passively” cleansing yourself constantly anyway) and it starts getting a bit ludicrous. No class can come even close to this without blast finishers. Plus that AoE boon strip = amazing on points.

That’s the idea and the way we can be useful again as we’d be the hard counter against the condition meta. I wouldn’t go full on condition removal as you already have the shatter and mantra condition removal + the healing to counter condition damage. Adding nullfield to it is unnecessary for condition removal but the boon removal would be a plus. I think there are a lot of variations and options you can go for depending on your teams requirement.

Yep, just throwing out ideas. Can certainly get to overkill at some point