Guild Wars 2

@Kahziel:
Sorry but that doesn’t make much sense. I’m pretty sure when someone asks if you want to “have some cake,” they don’t expect you to hold on to it without ever eating it. I’ll stick to “having” cake by eating it, thank you.

@Buffalo:
I like some of the ideas there, particularly loweing the cast times as you get hit, but I fear passive effects would step on the toes of signets too much. I have also entertained the idea of charging a mantra having some effect though.

Kasama.8941:

…Interesting stuff…

I’m actually extremely interested in trying this out. Would you mind linking your mantra build here? I’ve been toying around with a few but haven’t really locked one down yet. Thanks!

The problem is that the shatter build is so much more effective than most other mesmer builds cause of the insane burst. I did run a mantra build back in the days, might that I try it out again some time. Here’s an old phantasm/mantra build I used to play with, if anyone is interesting to try out mantra builds.

http://en.gw2codex.com/build/20966-mantra-balanced-dmg-build

Mantras are too limited in versatility to provide what other utilities can without traits and thus less so with traits even given their unrestricted timing usages once charged. Coupled with the difficulty in charging them from time to time and we have a situation with Mantras.

An example, the comparison between Null Field and Resolve.

Null Field

• Removes Conditions (allies)
• Removes Boons (foes)
• Combo Field

Resolve

• Removes Conditions (self)
• Multiple usages
• Low cool down

The cool down of Null Field while longer is also connected to a powerful effect that takes place over several seconds in which can be used for a variety of different other effects because it’s a combo field. Resolve can’t boast that, has only one application and doesn’t even affect everyone around you or your enemy at all. In summary, untraited Null Field is hands down stronger than untraited Mantra of Resolve, partly because it’s usable when you generally need it while providing more opportunities in which to use it as well while being usable most of the times you need to use it. Mantra of Resolve while usable more often has less opportunities in which to use it.

MOR is usable 3x as often as Null Field for condition removal.

Ok, there’s a couple of conversations going on here. Easiest first.

@Fay: you seem to be getting hung up on the difference between harder and better. It is harder to play a Mesmer better, but a Mesmer can be better than any other class if you are good enough.

You keep mentioning traits that are poorly placed, or utilities that are bad. Other than 1 signet, mantras, and mantra traits, I’m curious as to what these traits and utilities are.

@EasymodeX: I’ve used mantras in a pure glass cannon ranged nuker build, and they work fine. The problem isn’t that mantras are completely useless, it is that their usefulness diminishes sharply when put in other situations, where other utilities retain their value.

In my tank build, I have also tried mantras. I have not spent hundreds of hours with them, but I have spent enough time to know they are a poor match for my build, and I’ve already been through the reasoning on this.

Here is the thing. Every point I make, you rebut with how mantras can be used in a full glass cannon ranged nuker build. I know that. They work great like that. That is also the ONLY place they work great, and that is the problem. The fact that mantras are relegated to just one specific nuking build is the telling sign that they need buffs.

And come to think of it, mantras being underpowered could be the root of a lot of Fay’s issues regarding Mesmer utilities and traits, as the mantra traits are all over the place in dumb locations, and the mantras themselves are underpowered.

Harbinger.9645:

I’m actually extremely interested in trying this out. Would you mind linking your mantra build here? I’ve been toying around with a few but haven’t really locked one down yet. Thanks!

I actually haven’t tried making a full fledged mantra build yet, but I use the various mantra skills on their own all the time.

The closest I have come to making a mantra build, is a 0/20/30/20/0 bunker/support build I have that uses Mantra of Recovery and Mantra of Distraction, together with Mender’s Purity (remove a condition when you heal), Restorative Mantra (AoE heal when you channel a mantra), Protected Mantras (gain +250 toughness when you channel a mantra), and Bountiful Interruption (gain a random boon when you interrupt a foe).

Gaiawolf.8261:

@Kahziel:
Sorry but that doesn’t make much sense. I’m pretty sure when someone asks if you want to “have some cake,” they don’t expect you to hold on to it without ever eating it. I’ll stick to “having” cake by eating it, thank you.

I apologize, apparently this figure of speech is going right over your head. There is no spoon. Or cake for that matter. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/You_can't_have_your_cake_and_eat_it

Pyroatheist.9031:

Ok, there’s a couple of conversations going on here. Easiest first.

@Fay: you seem to be getting hung up on the difference between harder and better. It is harder to play a Mesmer better, but a Mesmer can be better than any other class if you are good enough.

You keep mentioning traits that are poorly placed, or utilities that are bad. Other than 1 signet, mantras, and mantra traits, I’m curious as to what these traits and utilities are.

Here’s a start. https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Underutilized-Utility-Skill-Survey/first

Of course everyone has their own opinion, and some examples are situational to certain builds/players, but this is a good place to start looking at which utilities people find underwhelming and why. Some of the reasons for lower general ratings/uses are pretty dead on. I haven’t seen a similar conversation for traits, yet.

Seriously, if in a fight you have time to walk around doing nothing for more than 3 seconds, your enemy has serious l2p issues.
Good luck against a sword thief who dazes you every 2 seconds.

Gaiawolf.8261:

Pyroatheist.9031:

Ok, there’s a couple of conversations going on here. Easiest first.

@Fay: you seem to be getting hung up on the difference between harder and better. It is harder to play a Mesmer better, but a Mesmer can be better than any other class if you are good enough.

You keep mentioning traits that are poorly placed, or utilities that are bad. Other than 1 signet, mantras, and mantra traits, I’m curious as to what these traits and utilities are.

Here’s a start. https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Underutilized-Utility-Skill-Survey/first

Of course everyone has their own opinion, and some examples are situational to certain builds/players, but this is a good place to start looking at which utilities people find underwhelming and why. Some of the reasons for lower general ratings/uses are pretty dead on. I haven’t seen a similar conversation for traits, yet.

I was in that thread. It boiled down to signet of midnight +veil+mantras, and that’s about it.

@Gaiawolfx: whooooooooshhhhh

Pyroatheist.9031:

Ok, there’s a couple of conversations going on here. Easiest first.

@Fay: you seem to be getting hung up on the difference between harder and better. It is harder to play a Mesmer better, but a Mesmer can be better than any other class if you are good enough.

You keep mentioning traits that are poorly placed, or utilities that are bad. Other than 1 signet, mantras, and mantra traits, I’m curious as to what these traits and utilities are.

@EasymodeX: I’ve used mantras in a pure glass cannon ranged nuker build, and they work fine. The problem isn’t that mantras are completely useless, it is that their usefulness diminishes sharply when put in other situations, where other utilities retain their value.

In my tank build, I have also tried mantras. I have not spent hundreds of hours with them, but I have spent enough time to know they are a poor match for my build, and I’ve already been through the reasoning on this.

Here is the thing. Every point I make, you rebut with how mantras can be used in a full glass cannon ranged nuker build. I know that. They work great like that. That is also the ONLY place they work great, and that is the problem. The fact that mantras are relegated to just one specific nuking build is the telling sign that they need buffs.

And come to think of it, mantras being underpowered could be the root of a lot of Fay’s issues regarding Mesmer utilities and traits, as the mantra traits are all over the place in dumb locations, and the mantras themselves are underpowered.

Gaiawolf has already responded to the first part so I’ll get to the second part about mantras (Btw veil is very effective in zerg vs zerg in WvW). If you have a look at my build it’s NOT a glass cannon nuke build, yet it’s very effective.

The reason I suggest a buff in mantra of pain is because against high vitality/toughness healing builds like p/d thief with v/t healing and d/d bunker ele with healing it just doesn’t do enough to match it. The only way I found to beat them 1v1 is by either surprise, making them use their major abilities before bursting or dazing them at the exact right time.

That said a lot of other professions and builds also have problems countering these builds so I don’t think mantras are alone in that and this might be more an issue with those builds more than anything.

Master of Timespace.2548:

Seriously, if in a fight you have time to walk around doing nothing for more than 3 seconds, your enemy has serious l2p issues.
Good luck against a sword thief who dazes you every 2 seconds.

As for the 3 second cast, you have your dazes, cripples, blink, timewarp and being able to use healing while casting it. Remember that you might have dazes on your thief mantra mesmer (that uses a build like mine) has 5 dazes (you can chain these). A good mantra mesmer will know how to use these effectively. A sword thief isn’t a problem.

how is mimic not underwhelming?

or is it so underwhelming that no one remembered it

@Fay: I agree with you about veil, I was just summarizing that thread in a sentence. It has a super long cooldown, but stealthing unlimited numbers of people has ridiculous potential.

The problem is that a non-full glass cannon mantra build is worse than another build designed to do the same thing. Your build seems to be a mix of damage and healing, but is stellar at neither in a sustained fight. The shattercat builds are far better at doing damage, and have more survivability from staff and defensive shattering. My build suffers from damage, but effectively has no direct counters or weaknesses aside from other people refusing to engage.

With the exception of that 1 situation, mantras are simply worse, and that needs fixing.

Fay does great with her build. I do well with mine. We know you have a “unkillable” build. But thats not the way everyone wants to play. Fays build is stellar at healing. And does great damage. You just put statements out there, that are incorect. We get it, you like your gimmicky retaliation build. Not everyone does.

Jester.1236:

Fay does great with her build. I do well with mine. We know you have a “unkillable” build. But thats not the way everyone wants to play. Fays build is stellar at healing. And does great damage. You just put statements out there, that are incorect. We get it, you like your gimmicky retaliation build. Not everyone does.

The problem is simply that the mantra builds are worse than other builds designed to do the same thing. A phantasm build that spams MoP has just as good healing, but does higher and more reliable damage from a safer distance. Your build uses mantras AND torch, which basically means you’re compounding all the underpowered mechanics a mesmer has into 1 build. The builds can do fine, if you are good enough to play them. The issue is not how well you can do use the builds, the issue is that the builds are inferior on a basic level to ones that don’t use mantras as a main mechanic, or torch for that matter.

Pyroatheist.9031:

@Gaiawolfx: whooooooooshhhhh

Hahaha !

Pyroatheist.9031:

jportell.2197:

Bunker build is by far a superior thing here. If you don’t believe pyro. Take the build to WvW or HOTM follow the guidelines and you will see so many classes kill themselves. The main weakness in his build (sorry pyro) is the power output that I have found. I am on Dragonbrand and since us and Mag our getting our rears kicked by Kaineng we have decided to have a fight club. Warrior told me that he wanted to fight me I says okay. We do a couple bouts he downs himself from a frenzy while I am just standing there twirling my staff. Then he switches it up. He doesn’t attack me just watches what I do and we literally just run around in circles for 10 min while he tries to spot the weakness and then that was it. My damage is low. Now I may not have the same accessories as pyros wvw build but I can imagine that against a warrior class that just runs away the damage kinda sucks.

Quite honestly, if they completely refuse to fight/engage, then it’s mission accomplished. In tPvP, that is obviously a quite satisfactory situation. In WvW, depending on the situation, it can be quite fine, if perhaps slightly aggravating. However, I have never encountered a situation where I wasn’t able to kill someone that didn’t actually run away, as in your experience. Generally, you can play offensively enough to take people down over time, especially if you force them to make the occasional attack.

jportell.2197:

If they are out to fight you yeah you can out bunker guardians easy.

If they don’t fight you, you never die, and so you out-bunker guardians no matter what. The difference between a bunker guardian and my build is that you can actually kill things, and a bunker guardian does absolutely nothing except stay alive.

As a side note, send a pm to me the next time you make a fight club, I’d love to make an appearance.

Will do man! What server are you on because I heard with guesting you can’t join in the WvW of the server you guest on. I’m on DragonBrand

jportell.2197:

Pyroatheist.9031:

jportell.2197:

Bunker build is by far a superior thing here. If you don’t believe pyro. Take the build to WvW or HOTM follow the guidelines and you will see so many classes kill themselves. The main weakness in his build (sorry pyro) is the power output that I have found. I am on Dragonbrand and since us and Mag our getting our rears kicked by Kaineng we have decided to have a fight club. Warrior told me that he wanted to fight me I says okay. We do a couple bouts he downs himself from a frenzy while I am just standing there twirling my staff. Then he switches it up. He doesn’t attack me just watches what I do and we literally just run around in circles for 10 min while he tries to spot the weakness and then that was it. My damage is low. Now I may not have the same accessories as pyros wvw build but I can imagine that against a warrior class that just runs away the damage kinda sucks.

Quite honestly, if they completely refuse to fight/engage, then it’s mission accomplished. In tPvP, that is obviously a quite satisfactory situation. In WvW, depending on the situation, it can be quite fine, if perhaps slightly aggravating. However, I have never encountered a situation where I wasn’t able to kill someone that didn’t actually run away, as in your experience. Generally, you can play offensively enough to take people down over time, especially if you force them to make the occasional attack.

jportell.2197:

If they are out to fight you yeah you can out bunker guardians easy.

If they don’t fight you, you never die, and so you out-bunker guardians no matter what. The difference between a bunker guardian and my build is that you can actually kill things, and a bunker guardian does absolutely nothing except stay alive.

As a side note, send a pm to me the next time you make a fight club, I’d love to make an appearance.

Will do man! What server are you on because I heard with guesting you can’t join in the WvW of the server you guest on. I’m on DragonBrand

Dragonbrand of course. You could probably have figured that out from the videos if you payed close enough attention.

LAWLS I DIDN"T pay that close attention. I saw a couple FA guys you fought No clue however that it was the week they were fighting us.

@EasymodeX: I’ve used mantras in a pure glass cannon ranged nuker build, and they work fine. The problem isn’t that mantras are completely useless, it is that their usefulness diminishes sharply when put in other situations, where other utilities retain their value.

Dunno, many utilities lose their value in situations where they’re not optimal. I mean does ANYONE use iDefender except your build?

My perception is that the Mantras are by themselves powerful enough to merit their slot, even if they lack flexibility (except MoC lulz). Therefore, they are not underpowered. If a utility is optimal for “too many” builds (whatever that threshold is), then it is overpowered.

Mantra of Pain can be used in any offensive build for elevated spike. Most players want to survive better and will pick Decoy/Blink/Feedback, or go a hybrid route with MI. I’ve used it from time to time in pretty much every power build I’ve ever been spec’d into.

Mantra of Distraction can be used in many offensive builds that include a sharper lockdown mechanism. I ran builds a long time ago that utilized Sword/x + IP burst combos that stacked the daze to combo with the sword3 immobilize. SigDom won’t work in that scenario.

the mantra traits are all over the place in dumb locations

I’d have to disagree with that point. I think they’re reasonably placed overall — if EM or HM were placed as T2 somewhere, you could get some really scary builds going. RM is an inherently different trait and is considered separately.

@EasymodeX: RM is placed fine. The trait that increases armor while channeling mantras is in the dueling line, which is dumb, and additionally useless. EM(3 charge mantras one) should not exist, and mantras should kittenarges base. In place of it, reduce casting time by 1 second or something more balanced.

The problem with mantras is that they are front loaded. This makes sense in an offensive setup for pain or distraction, but not for the other 2, where the front loading produces a big problem once it is used up. The defender is only useful in my build, but the synergy is 100%, where the mantras just stop halfway.

Pyroatheist.9031:

Because they have exceedingly long charge times and too few base uses. The traits that affect mantras are all over the place and in the wrong trees for their effects many times. The trait that allows the number of mantra uses to become anywhere near significant is 30 points into a tree with an absolutely and completely useless 25 minor trait bonus. The only viable uses for mantras are extremely specific and niche builds that don’t actually utilize the mantras for their normal purpose, such as the mantra heal build for the aoe heals, or using the heal mantra to proc healing rune skills rapidly, or using the 4% extra damage per mantra to make a pure long range glass cannon nuker that never actually uses the mantras.

In general, if you show me any build that has mantras that are supposed to actually be used for their normal intended purpose, I can make you a build that will do it better without mantras.

Mate, pardon me for the apparently useless comment on the aesthetic aspect of Mantras, I hope it didn’t offend you too badly.

To come back to your last statement, I think you haven’t taken a close enough look at the benefits of interupt bonuses within the Domination tree. Specced correctly, a MantraMesmer can make any class regret casting a skill.

Also: the charge time on Mantra of Pain balances well with the damage two charges of the ability can do. You can cast Power Surge during a channeled ability, like GreatSword 1. You can unload great damage using this method.

Open your mind to Mantras, they can kick kitten

Delofakitten.4231:

Mantras are too limited in versatility to provide what other utilities can without traits and thus less so with traits even given their unrestricted timing usages once charged. Coupled with the difficulty in charging them from time to time and we have a situation with Mantras.

An example, the comparison between Null Field and Resolve.

Null Field

• Removes Conditions (allies)
• Removes Boons (foes)
• Combo Field

Resolve

• Removes Conditions (self)
• Multiple usages
• Low cool down

The cool down of Null Field while longer is also connected to a powerful effect that takes place over several seconds in which can be used for a variety of different other effects because it’s a combo field. Resolve can’t boast that, has only one application and doesn’t even affect everyone around you or your enemy at all. In summary, untraited Null Field is hands down stronger than untraited Mantra of Resolve, partly because it’s usable when you generally need it while providing more opportunities in which to use it as well while being usable most of the times you need to use it. Mantra of Resolve while usable more often has less opportunities in which to use it.

Think about it, you can add to Resolve (when specced for it) a damage increase, the fact that it is not rooted (foes could easily run out of a Null Field, and it constricts you if you want to get the full effect) and a lower cooldown.

Mantras have some more going for them than it seems.

To come back to your last statement, I think you haven’t taken a close enough look at the benefits of interupt bonuses within the Domination tree. Specced correctly, a MantraMesmer can make any class regret casting a skill.

The interrupt bonuses in Dom are mostly horrible. Although, I don’t think I ever re-tested the damage one since I hit 80 / got power exotics.

EasymodeX.4062:

To come back to your last statement, I think you haven’t taken a close enough look at the benefits of interupt bonuses within the Domination tree. Specced correctly, a MantraMesmer can make any class regret casting a skill.

The interrupt bonuses in Dom are mostly horrible. Although, I don’t think I ever re-tested the damage one since I hit 80 / got power exotics.

The interrupt bonuses are total crap. The vulnerability on daze (15) is tremendously powerful in a shatter build though, especially with the trait that removes boons with a shatter. The daze mantra isn’t good for that trait though, because the cooldown on the dazing is too long to stack up vuln effectively. With a 4 clone daze shatter, you get 20 instant vulnerability (and 3 stacks of might) and you can follow that up with 4 clone mind wrack and blurred frenzy at 20% higher damage.

Mantra of Pain is deadly on a berserker GS mesmer. Certainly when traited for 3 tics and your crit chance is 75% and your crit dmg is +99%. I almost always see a power spike of 2k and with iBerserker/mirror blade/mind stab you can often down 50% of the players in wvw within a 3sec window.

Mantras are lackluster unless traited. I am currently running a full berserker gear (with Runes of Divinity) Phantasm build with Mantra of Healing for support and I still am able to heal around 2.7k+ per cast of Mantra of Pain. I am also using the trait that gives 250 toughness while casting a mantra so that charge isn’t exactly a waste of time. This is a full berserker build so Mantra of Pain is able to dish out around 2k crit (on heavy armored) while I heal for every charge of pain. My phantasms also deal a hell of a lot of damage.

My MoP crits for 4800 on upleveled glass. 3.5-4k on level 80 glass. /kitten.

EasymodeX.4062:

MOR is usable 3x as often as Null Field for condition removal.

The number of times you can use Resolve doesn’t outweigh the versatility of Null Field. Besides, Null Field removes around 5 Conditions, at most Resolve will get 8 in the same time frame, but remember you won’t have pulled any boons plucked off your enemy, nor any confusion/chaos armor from proccing the field, etc etc etc. Yes it’s usable about twice as often (20 sec CD 3 and 1/4th sec cast) as Null Field (45 sec CD, 1/4th sec cast), and does 1/4th of the effect.

Until they allow all mantra setup cast be done concurrently, mantras are not useful in dungeons/fractals.

Delofakitten.4231:

The number of times you can use Resolve doesn’t outweigh the versatility of Null Field. Besides, Null Field removes around 5 Conditions, at most Resolve will get 8 in the same time frame, but remember you won’t have pulled any boons plucked off your enemy, nor any confusion/chaos armor from proccing the field, etc etc etc. Yes it’s usable about twice as often (20 sec CD 3 and 1/4th sec cast) as Null Field (45 sec CD, 1/4th sec cast), and does 1/4th of the effect.

Shrug. It depends.

I tend to only care about poison (because of heals) and immobilizes (because of instant death) in WvW. Sometimes I care about burning/weakness/chill, but those aren’t as significant. The rest are pretty irrelevant unless I’m seeing huge stacks of bleed/vuln.

Also, Null Field is simply not going to remove 5 conditions. Seems more like 3 is a usual number, although I suspect it can hit 4 if you’re actually standing in one spot that long. You’re also assuming that the enemy is standing in melee range and uses significant boons.

Furthermore, Null Field is a poor solution when you just got nailed with poison, weakness, immob, 3 stacks of bleed, and 15 enemies just tabbed to you in WvW. Not only does it take a second to drop, but then you have to wait for it to peel conditions off. You’ll probably be dead by the time you get the necessary conditions removed so you can run through the portal (or at least immob so you can dodge through it).

MoR occurs instantly, dodge, safe. You can hit a [mantra] heal mid-dodge (because it’s instant), with no poison reduction (because MoR is instant), etc.

No one’s disputing that one click of Null Field is significantly stronger than one click of MoR. But, Null Field is inferior for many specific applications and MoR can stand on its own.

The point still remains that Null Field is far more versatile. The most important issues listed that you gave further show how niche the Mantras are, proving only further that they are better in a few situations. The issue is. . . they are only ever better in a very few situations, which in fact makes them much less powerful in most situations. That is the whole point of this thread I believe, that they have the potential for so much more, and are just lacking that little oomph.

A popular opinion would be to make the Mantras act more like signets which I actually do not like, but I could see Traits being a bit stronger. Things such as making them AoE effects (especially useful on Mantra of Pain), reducing their cast times, adding versatile secondary effects. . .

For instance, would Resolve be completely OP if it removed conditions from all nearby allies? Another trait might make it remove boons from nearby enemies (in effect making it a mobile off the GCD once charge Null Field). . . these are questions that raise interesting questions about the current design of skills.

Except they’re not lacking in oomph. MoResolve, for example, removes critical conditions many times more often than Null Field.

Null Field is a general tool for more situations. MoResolve is a more potent tool for fewer situations. Hence it has more “oomph”.

Null Field is a general tool for more situations with more power in most situations, Resolve is a highly situational tool that fulfills the role slightly better.

-.-

I can see we will have to agree to disagree on this. Well, enjoy your Mantras as they are strong enough for you. I still respect you as a player, and your opinion matters, it’s just not in line with what I believe myself and most of the community think about Mantras.

I wouldn’t mind improving Mantras horizontally (so that they are more effective in other situations), but they don’t need to be more potent.

You simply can’t have an effective balance discussion when you discount the scenarios where Mantras are strong or Null Field overrated among other things, else you will tend to over-buff them.

Edit:

The AOE concept is interesting, but it would be more appropriate for a Trait. E.g.:

- Remove HM. Make all Mantras 3 charge baseline. Increase the cooldown of Mantras by 1/.8 = 25%.

- HM trait now makes Mantra effects a small AOE.

This would overpower Mantra of Recovery, though. People would also still complain about the base mechanic.

Edit2:

Ah, halfway between:

- Retain the 2 discharge baseline, but have HM use the effect in an AOE when you charge the Mantra. E.g. when you charge Mantra of Resolve you AOE cleanse 2 conditions.

This still wouldn’t change anything related to purely baseline Mantras, however.

Another partial solution:

- Mantras execute their effect in an AOE when charging but now only have 1 charge.
- HM increases charges to 2.
- MoD would need its base daze duration increased a tad to compensate
- MoC would need +1s on the boon.

Edit3: I suspect that if ANet made them all inherently AOE with no other changes, you’d have an immediate problem with MoRecovery in general, and MoResolve would remove too many conditions, so they’d nerf that to 1. It would be balanced for MoC though. MoD would be somewhere in the middle. AOE Daze too good canyouimagine.

For “all AOE”, I would say:

- MoRecovery = no AOE
- MoD = small AOE
- MoPain = moderate AOE size
- MoResolve = AOE component only removes 1 condition (maintain 2 on self), moderate AOE
- MoC = moderate-large AOE