Guild Wars 2

One of my husband’s toons is a mesmer, but made it a woman due to the feminine butterfly effects it has. Would it be possible for ArenaNet to include a patch to provide a more masculine effect for male players, such as maybe a puff of smoke, ravens, skulls, etc that would be less effeminate for male players?

I used to think that the butterflies were a bit effeminate at first, but as Astral said, while toying around with one of my alts for a bit, I’ve managed to role play a male Mesmer who’s a tad of a playboy rogue.

I now see the pink as magenta/purple (a very royal/noble/typically psychic colour) and the butterflies as gender-neutral effects of the mind-bending glamour.

Heraldusluminare.2946:

I used to think that the butterflies were a bit effeminate at first, but as Astral said, while toying around with one of my alts for a bit, I’ve managed to role play a male Mesmer who’s a tad of a playboy rogue.

I now see the pink as magenta/purple (a very royal/noble/typically psychic colour) and the butterflies as gender-neutral effects of the mind-bending glamour.

This is how I always saw it to be honest. Butterflies are just a symbol of the class it seems.

I’ve noticed this too while playing the game with a female human mesmer. Maybe they could change the effects to [glass] [shattering] instead, that’s more gender neutral aesthetically if you ask me. Purple has been the identifying color for a mesmer, so I’m OK with that. But the effects for mesmer is too “soft and delicate” for me. I’m imagining, are all male mesmers effeminate, romantic, and spinning, whirling around in their tight pants, with a big bulge in their groin for illusion? Oh lawdy. That might be it since the near equivalent of mesmers in RPG terms are bards and enchanters, and they are traditionally the fancy or fabulous type.

Steel Fenrir.2791:

-snip-

I’m imagining, are all male mesmers effeminate, romantic, and spinning, whirling around in their tight pants, with a big bulge in their groin for illusion? Oh lawdy. That might be it since the near equivalent of mesmers in RPG terms are bards and enchanters, and they are traditionally the fancy or fabulous type.

Steel Fenrir, you get my upvote for that hilarious description. XD

Butterflies and the pink/purple colour scheme have been symbolic of the class since GW1. I highly doubt ArenaNet would change that due to arbitrary and changing associations of stereotypical femininity and masculinity.

Besides, you have to be practical about how it would even be implemented. Would it be a mandatory effects change based on the sex of the character you roll? What then about female characters who want the blue butterflies instead of the pink or vice versa? And shouldn’t similar gender disparity then be introduced to every class? It’s a big can of worms to open up based on an honestly silly aversion to pink butterlies.

I love a good pirouetting delicate butterfly-weaving gentlemesmer <3

I believe the butterflies were based off of Philemon from Carl Jung psychology (Yes, THE same Philemon who also appeared in Persona 2!)

So while playing a Mesmer, just pretend you’re summoning Philemon as your Persona.

... It’s referencing the butterfly effect (chaos theory), as we deal out chaos magic. Nothing gendered about it. It’s awesome whoever does it and whatever colour it is.

I always see them as purple, not pink, as well, but I suppose it depends where your monitor is adjusted to.

Also, laser beams. The greatsword is shooting out laserbeams of death. It’s a Tyrian lightsabre, and it’s epic! Embrace it!

It may also be a reference to butterflies as a symbol for the psyche or soul, as well as metamorphosis and change.

I thought it was sad that the mesmer in the new group was a female. We already have Gwen, Jenna and Anise as iconic mesmers, we really didn’t need Kasmeer as one. It was a missed opportunity to portray a male mesmer for a change. The female mesmer is like ArenaNet’s own special trope. Male mesmers exist but they generally lean towards the drama club side of things.

I really like the suggestion of ravens. It really buys into the trickery aspect of the class.

Shiren.9532:

I thought it was sad that the mesmer in the new group was a female. We already have Gwen, Jenna and Anise as iconic mesmers, we really didn’t need Kasmeer as one. It was a missed opportunity to portray a male mesmer for a change. The female mesmer is like ArenaNet’s own special trope. Male mesmers exist but they generally lean towards the drama club side of things.

I really like the suggestion of ravens. It really buys into the trickery aspect of the class.

I’d be up for seeing racially oriented effects for Mesmers. Humans with butterflies, Norn with Ravens, Charr with Cogs, Asura with Crystals, and Sylvari with Leaves. As far as Kasmeer being the third prominent female mesmer in the story, I think Anet is kind of hinting at something. Jennah is royalty, Anise is nobility, and from what I understand Kasmeer was also nobility. Seems likely that either female nobles often take the path of the Mesmer, perhaps as a status symbol amongst Krytan humans, or that many choose that path in honor of Jennah, who is, after all, a very beloved Queen.

I have never found the Mesmer effects to be exactly feminine in nature. Mesmers to me are about trickery, elegance, and showmanship. The butterflies and pink color are both emblematic of these 3 traits. I suppose that in some ways, one could see the mesmer as a feminine class, but I just always looked at them in the same way I would look at a jester/harlequin type character. They cover the battlefield with dancing illusions, then when the time is right, shatter them all at once at once to create a marvelous crescendo.

Kurodius.7463:

<snip!> Mesmers to me are about trickery, elegance, and showmanship. <snip!>… but I just always looked at them in the same way I would look at a jester/harlequin type character. They cover the battlefield with dancing illusions, then when the time is right, shatter them all at once at once to create a marvelous crescendo.

Which, when I play this on my male mesmer, is so, so very schmexy.

Vexander.9850:

Shiren.9532:

I thought it was sad that the mesmer in the new group was a female. We already have Gwen, Jenna and Anise as iconic mesmers, we really didn’t need Kasmeer as one. It was a missed opportunity to portray a male mesmer for a change. The female mesmer is like ArenaNet’s own special trope. Male mesmers exist but they generally lean towards the drama club side of things.

I really like the suggestion of ravens. It really buys into the trickery aspect of the class.

I’d be up for seeing racially oriented effects for Mesmers. Humans with butterflies, Norn with Ravens, Charr with Cogs, Asura with Crystals, and Sylvari with Leaves. As far as Kasmeer being the third prominent female mesmer in the story, I think Anet is kind of hinting at something. Jennah is royalty, Anise is nobility, and from what I understand Kasmeer was also nobility. Seems likely that either female nobles often take the path of the Mesmer, perhaps as a status symbol amongst Krytan humans, or that many choose that path in honor of Jennah, who is, after all, a very beloved Queen.

Coming to a gem store near you, yup I would pay for that (Norn Mesmer).

Wetpaw.3487:

Vexander.9850:

Shiren.9532:

I thought it was sad that the mesmer in the new group was a female. We already have Gwen, Jenna and Anise as iconic mesmers, we really didn’t need Kasmeer as one. It was a missed opportunity to portray a male mesmer for a change. The female mesmer is like ArenaNet’s own special trope. Male mesmers exist but they generally lean towards the drama club side of things.

I really like the suggestion of ravens. It really buys into the trickery aspect of the class.

I’d be up for seeing racially oriented effects for Mesmers. Humans with butterflies, Norn with Ravens, Charr with Cogs, Asura with Crystals, and Sylvari with Leaves. As far as Kasmeer being the third prominent female mesmer in the story, I think Anet is kind of hinting at something. Jennah is royalty, Anise is nobility, and from what I understand Kasmeer was also nobility. Seems likely that either female nobles often take the path of the Mesmer, perhaps as a status symbol amongst Krytan humans, or that many choose that path in honor of Jennah, who is, after all, a very beloved Queen.

Coming to a gem store near you, yup I would pay for that (Norn Mesmer).

Class/Race specific things like that -would- be pretty nifty. Can’t figure out what to give humans though. Can’t resemble what the other races have, so an eagle is out because it’d be too close to Ravens…

I don’t think of butterflies as being feminine either but every race having different effects would be pretty cool.

One change though. Charr mesmers shouldn’t have cogs, they should have tiny colorful charr. Charr are the symbol of change because they are ever changing and moving forward and it’d just be generally awesome.

chouji’s ultimate form is a butterfly…. in japan aren’t they manly or something

Emiko.3217:

I know I’m not alone in feeling this way. My husband feels the way I feel (which is why I posted this), my son feels this way, and I"m sure a lot more guys feel this way, but aren’t agreeing for fear of being cut down in the forum.

Is anyone being “cutting?” Or are they simply suggesting reasons why others don’t agree.

I would like to see maybe a choice in what effects a Mesmer can have. Instead of a choice in mask to wear a choice in what effects, have three choices so that each Mesmer could be unique. I like the cog wheels and ravens idea. maybe a choice of butterflies, cog wheels or ravens, at character creation. Now that would be cool

I’m sure some people do, but the purple and the butterflies and whatnot are just part of the class. I’m unlikely to ever play a necromancer partly because I don’t like the death magic and corpse monsters and such, but I wouldn’t ask Anet to change the whole class’ flavor because of it, let alone just because some people are afraid of catching girl cooties.

Personally, I’m tired of gender essentialism in all its manifestations. ‘Feminine’ should not be a pejorative.

Emiko.3217:

Astral Projections.7320:

Emiko.3217:

I know I’m not alone in feeling this way. My husband feels the way I feel (which is why I posted this), my son feels this way, and I"m sure a lot more guys feel this way, but aren’t agreeing for fear of being cut down in the forum.

Is anyone being “cutting?” Or are they simply suggesting reasons why others don’t agree.

It is when others of the same ilk are trying to invalidate someone else’s comment. Especially if (not saying this is the case), one’s friends purposely got on the debate to achieve this.
My comments about the mesmer stands with me, and not you or any others will change my mind. I’m not alone.

What I think of as cutting remarks would be someone telling me I’m stupid or inflexibly old fashioned or something along that line, or even saying the people who are discussing the matter with you are “others of the same ilk” (ilk. Pronoun. Represents a group of items of the same type. Has a connotation of the typed group being of bad or questionable character). I haven’t seen any posts being cutting. I’ve seen posts saying why they disagree with you, but disagreeing is not the same as invalidating. If you feel that disagreeing and reasons why you disagree is being cutting and invalidating then it is difficult to have a discussion with you.

This should really be in the General Discussion forum. Or maybe the Mesmer forum.

But as to the original topic, no, I don’t think it should be changed. The pink and butterfly effects are kind of iconic to the Mesmer profession in the same way that skulls and death is to the Necromancer. While the pink is perhaps arguable, the butterflies represent change and transformation, which is in keeping with the Mesmer’s mechanics of creating clones, shattering them, and transforming themselves and others.

To be fair, I can totally see why butterflies might be considered effeminate in Westerner’s eyes. They’ve been used too much in Disney Princess movies and have become stereotypically feminine. :p

To me, the butterflies are actually critical in providing the sort of ephemeral, fey and eldritch qualities of mesmer magic. I suppose tiny ravens would be ok, but cogs and skulls just wouldn’t do it for me. I probably wouldn’t find the class nearly as ‘enchanting’, because butterflies are a living embodiment of dazzling colour, both delicate and perplexing in swarms.

Of course, to each his or her own. Although it might be a little hard to detach the notion of butterflies from mesmers because they are pretty much an icon of the class (mesmer logo, all over their traits interface).

I randomly came across this screenshot as I was browsing nostalgically through my GW1 screens folder . . . It seemed relevant.

Actually Mesmers were not all about Butterflies on GW1. in fact, I can only think of 1 skill right now that produces butterfly effects in gw1 and that’s Soothing Images, a not so popular skill used for anti adrenaline.

For me, Mesmer was a fear inducing class of control and dominance, not really trickery and deception. I mean have you heard the sound of the gw1 Diversion? That is a sound to be feared.

Sadly, I believe that every single Mesmer in GW2 is 25+ attribute point in Illusion Magic. Domination Magic and Inspiration are all dead magic now. Funny thing, Domination was almost always the better skill attribute and the more used

The concept of “this thing is for boys, that thing is for girls” is dying.
Being a man or woman shouldn’t be based on whether you like bats or butterflies, blue or pink—or anything else. A mage who uses illusionary butterflies is no less a man then a mage who uses fireballs—both get the job done. And if anybody thinks to laugh at the Mesmer—bad idea. He can use one of those butterflies to make your brain explode.
Making stuff explode is pretty manly

That said, for people who want a Mesmer, but don’t like the traditional “purple and pink” vibe, there’s lots you can do. For your husband, I suggest he takes his Mesmer to the PVP locker to look at armor combinations. The right armor and the right dye colors will have his Mesmer looking masculine and vicious in no time.

I didn’t like the traditional Mesmer look myself—here’s a thing I came up with.

I didn’t like the butterflies and purple/pink to start off with but they’ve grown on me. Although I would likely still change it if given the option. As already said in this thread it dose make sense and is the icon for the class now. If they did give you a different option (unlikely) though there is no reason to tie it the gender of your toon and I would pretty kittened if they did tbh. Girl=/= likes butterflies and pink and some guys might actually like the butterflies.

Ah, butterflies. They flitter from flower to flower, drifting on whatever breeze might carry them to their next sip of sweet, sweet nectar. Until my (male asura) mesmer snares them. Whispers to them. Shapes them into winged magenta murderers that prefer the taste of brains to mere flower juice. Yesssss, make no mistake: my butterflies will rend your mind.

Emiko.3217:

I know I’m not alone in feeling this way. My husband feels the way I feel (which is why I posted this), my son feels this way, and I"m sure a lot more guys feel this way, but aren’t agreeing for fear of being cut down in the forum.

People aren’t agreeing with me so they must be scared. (pssst they just have a different opinion not a conspiracy)

Soothing Images from GW1 – fear the butterflies.

Arnie is a mesmer, nuff said!

Sorry, OP, but I disagree, as well. This is like me asking for GW2 to change the necro effects because locusts with the green and black color combo are “boyish” and it off-puts my fancy pink lady sensibilities™. I mean, my female Asura necro is not only forced to wear boy versions of armor but also must endure the black and demony corpsified color scheme.

I actually really like that there’s no gender difference for the effects of Mesmers and Necros because, as someone upthread said, the “this color/thing is for boys”, “this color/thing is for girls” is being side-eyed, discussed and found inadequate lately in most academic circles. It pleases me greatly that video games are letting that mentality leak in.

Emiko.3217:

I rather like the differences in between male and female. Call me old-school, but I"m glad there are at least physical differences, and no one can deny that.

Physical differences are one thing. Differences based purely on culture is another. One is essentially permanent. The other is transitory and changes not only through time but from one culture to another. Basing a preference on something permanent is not the same as basing it on something that’s not. The argument in the second case is substantially weaker.

Emiko.3217:

I rather like the differences in between male and female. Call me old-school, but I"m glad there are at least physical differences, and no one can deny that.

Physical differences are totally different from what’s being discussed here. Physical differences are real—boys have wee-wees and girls have lady bits. Boys have big shoulders and flat chests, girls have big hips and squishy chest bits. That’s our biology.

Differences like “blue=boy, pink=girl” are not real—they’re just weird, counterproductive “rules” that humans created because humans are strange.

So no, it’s not old-fashioned to want physical differences. I think everybody wants that. The alternative would be playing a bunch of sexless robots. People just don’t want to be forced to have a certain color, or type of clothes, because of their biology or their character’s biology.

Tell your husband to man the kitten up. If he can’t handle his male character casting a few butterflies then there are other issues at play here that don’t have to do with the game.

Emiko.3217:

One of my husband’s toons is a mesmer, but made it a woman due to the feminine butterfly effects it has.

Your husband just wants to play a female character now and then.. its not about the butterflies

If we did this, we also needed golden sparkles on female warriors and green humming birds for female necromancers and Unicorn effect for female Rangers. I don’t know… I like my fabulous Sylvari Mesmer and its good that we are able to play as an elegant man just as we are able to play a tough woman. And to distinguish between a male and a female fireball would be awkward.

Vexander.9850:

I’d be up for seeing racially oriented effects for Mesmers. Humans with butterflies, Norn with Ravens, Charr with Cogs, Asura with Crystals, and Sylvari with Leaves.

Race/Class specific content would be awesome. We really need more feedback on our our character decisions so we know we created a specific thing with our char. Imagine to have one specific weapon skin for each race/class combination that you get at the end of you personal story:

- A light saber as Asura Warrior
- A giant, rotating thorn-Gear for Sylvari Engineers
- A staff with an illusionary Raven that sits on the top for Norn Mesmers
- A dark Diamond Dagger for Human Thiefs
- Ghostbuster Hammer with screeching effect for Charr Guardians

Something in that direction

Each class appears to have a main color associated with them, in my opinion and many others, it is mostly agreed on that the mesmer leans much closer to the purple/magenta spectrum instead of pink/rose.

Purple being a royal color and a symbol of neutrality, it is very manly. Purple is also closely associated to psychic powers in fantasy stuff.

As for the butterfly effects and animations, it is basically a mental thing.

Conclusion: Purple, Butterfly Effects, Flamboyant outfits = all manly and straight. lel.

Also I think your husband made his mesmer female because dat kitten , the ultimate excuse! lol.

So Anet will check what’s under your underwear and give you skill effects depending on your sex? Well, that would be incredibly insulting. I’m a woman but I prefer masculine effects on female characters, and feminine effects on male characters. I prefer to play a male character because the females are already too insultingly girly (I can’t take them seriously as the adults/professionals they should be). Not every woman is girly and not every man is macho.

Personally I would prefer to play male spellcasters, but Anet made them ugly in Gw2 :-( The females look too girly and I can’t stand to play them because I don’t identify with them at all. So I just don’t play any spellcasters at all.

My husband didn’t like how male spellcasters looked like in Gw1, and he didn’t like playing female. So he didn’t play any except male ritualists, who looked masculine (sexy too!)

I don’t know how Anet could do what you want without being even more insulting than they are now. Unless they let us choose the style we want, a lot of people would not be happy.

Don’t pidgin hole yourself to social roles and stereotypes. Open up your mind to other ways of thinking.

Kind of silly that you want a class’ entire aesthetic style to be changed just because your husband doesn’t want to be “girly.” Plus, it’d take a lot of work to make the effects differ by gender, and it doesn’t seem like it’d be worth it.

I have 2 solutions you could consider instead:
1. Tell your husband to get over his fear of anything feminine. Femininity isn’t a bad thing. Feminine males are also something that exists, and it’d be unfair to them to change it just for you.
2. Tell him to play a different class. Literally any other class.

There you go, problem solved.

Dubbleyew.1029:

Kind of silly that you want a class’ entire aesthetic style to be changed just because your husband doesn’t want to be “girly.” Plus, it’d take a lot of work to make the effects differ by gender, and it doesn’t seem like it’d be worth it.

I have 2 solutions you could consider instead:
1. Tell your husband to get over his fear of anything feminine. Femininity isn’t a bad thing. Feminine males are also something that exists, and it’d be unfair to them to change it just for you.
2. Tell him to play a different class. Literally any other class.

There you go, problem solved.

Fair advice, but do you know what attracts people to video games and spending their money?

Options.

If there were options for class-specific animations or alterations to animations, I’m sure A.net would make a lot of money off of it. How about different colors of fire for Elementalists? Make all their Rock/Stone/Earth moves into Crystals (I’d buy that)? How about cultural-influenced banners for Warriors, so you can plant down human/charr/asuran, etc… looking flags?

Players -love- options and best of all, aesthetic stuff like this is what the Gem Store was -made- for. Personally I’m fine with the butterflies on my Mesmer, but I might change it to something like, say, foxes, if it was an option. Not that I suspect it would be. If I had a Norn Mesmer? I’d definitely go with Ravens, no question.

lorazcyk.8927:

So Anet will check what’s under your underwear and give you skill effects depending on your sex? Well, that would be incredibly insulting. I’m a woman but I prefer masculine effects on female characters, and feminine effects on male characters. I prefer to play a male character because the females are already too insultingly girly (I can’t take them seriously as the adults/professionals they should be). Not every woman is girly and not every man is macho.

Personally I would prefer to play male spellcasters, but Anet made them ugly in Gw2 :-( The females look too girly and I can’t stand to play them because I don’t identify with them at all. So I just don’t play any spellcasters at all.

My husband didn’t like how male spellcasters looked like in Gw1, and he didn’t like playing female. So he didn’t play any except male ritualists, who looked masculine (sexy too!)

I don’t know how Anet could do what you want without being even more insulting than they are now. Unless they let us choose the style we want, a lot of people would not be happy.

I agree, the defaults for female spellcasters are blah, but with some work they can turn out very cool. Guild Wars 2 gives you enough clothing and dye variety, plus facial sliders, so females don’t have to look like brainless dolls. Basically, use the far extremes of the facial sliders to force that supermodel look OUT, pick the biggest body type, and dress it in practical clothing with cool dyes. Poof! Strong female caster

lorazcyk.8927:

Personally I would prefer to play male spellcasters, but Anet made them ugly in Gw2 :-(

Umm…

lorazcyk.8927:

Personally I would prefer to play male spellcasters, but Anet made them ugly in Gw2 :-(

WHAAAAAAT???!! Muh husbando is beautiful, your argument is invalid.

New male mesmer look.

I’m sure you’ve used The Dreamer too much. ^^

Zeivu.3615:

Don’t pidgin hole yourself to social roles and stereotypes. Open up your mind to other ways of thinking.

Yeah, well, it’s not really so much about having a closed mind. Rather, it’s more about playing a character that you find appealing.

Personally, I like the idea of the Mesmer class very much, but the cutesy animations and butterflies have kept me from playing it for any length of time.

What would be spectacular would be to have a dye slot for animation colors. I could probably manage black or red butterflies.

Straight male insecurity is always such a riot to watch. Love it.

I wouldn’t mind the option of an icy or glassy or watery effect. It would match my look .

I brought, and currently use, a pink toothbrush. My wife wanted the blue one the last round and being a mesmer fan, I took rightful claim of the pink.

It’s all in your perceptions. Embrace the male mesmer if you have to!