Guild Wars 2

Dess.4391:

Idk why you are comparing those skills in 2 completely diferent classes. Thieves are the masters of stealth, not mesmers, and good thing we dont have that much aviable stealth!

If a mesmer had just as much stealth as a thief basically you would have 1 sec to kill it thx to blurred frenzy, not to mention we can still dmg ppl while stealthed thx to clones and phantasm wich we can cast from stealth without breaking it.

So why thieves get a skill like SR and mesmers MI? Well, diferent classes that have completly diferent mechanics. Tbh i think mesmers stealths are fine as they are, they add missdirection while not being gamebreaking. I wouldt mind less casting time on MI, but thats it.

One is an elite skill and the other is just an utility. the elite skill has a much longer CD, much longer casting time and cloaks you for twice less time. This makes sense to you? If they were both utilities or both were elite skills i’d agree with you for the fact that thief is supposed to have ‘better’ stealth but its not the case so its impossible to agree. MI does nothing to feel elite while SR feels like the perfect elite while not even being one.

Nuka Cola.8520:

One is an elite skill and the other is just an utility. the elite skill has a much longer CD, much longer casting time and cloaks you for twice less time. This makes sense to you?

Eh, yes?
Or rather, it does not make no sense. Which isn’t the same in this context.

They’re different classes. Why should their abilities be comparable on a 1-to-1 level? That’d be against the very idea of class-based design, which is not ability-based design.

Carighan.6758:

Eh, yes?
Or rather, it does not make no sense. Which isn’t the same in this context.

They’re different classes. Why should their abilities be comparable on a 1-to-1 level? That’d be against the very idea of class-based design, which is not ability-based design.

I totally disagree with this, when you take into account the 30point cost to get it, the longer cool down, shorter Stealth time and the HUGE cast time it is no where near worth its Elite status.

Sure they are the Stealth class, but they are NOT the only class that has access to stealth and why should our Elite (being the best of a bad bunch) be so much worse and so much more expensive then a UTILITY slot ability…

The only thing I would like to see changed with MI is reducing the cooldown.

Otherwise 5 sec of stealth (which is stackable) for 10 players is pretty good.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Sure they are the Stealth class, but they are NOT the only class that has access to stealth and why should our Elite (being the best of a bad bunch) be so much worse and so much more expensive then a UTILITY slot ability…

Because it’s not comparable.
By the same token of comparability, you should compare our access, power and secondary utility of Phantasms to Thief’s thief-summon. And you’ll probably find that to be a wee bit in favour of Mesmers, especially when it comes to replacing the things. Or their HP scaling. Or their damage. Or their utility. Or their traitability. And so on.
Or Warrior’s banners to Ranger’s (their pets). Or Ele stances to Engi kits. None of these comparisons really make sense, because they’re not elements which can be compared.

But that’s no problem, because they do not serve the same role in the context of the class. Neither do the stealth moves. We don’t stealth like thieves. We shouldn’t, either. Hence our stealth abilities cannot – and should not – be compared to a Thieves’ moves, but rather on their own, in the context of our class.

What you can compare between the classes is the total potential in X. X is actually pretty difficult to define, for example in WvW highwayman gameplay, the ability to “avoid combat” is kitten important so you a larger group cannot hunt yours down effectively. If classes are of different power here, this need to either a) reflect an intended difference in class design or b) be made up in an equivalent area pertaining to the mode itself. In other words, a class extremely adept at killing single players could in turn be very bad at avoiding being killed by a highwaymen-hunter-group.

Nuka Cola.8520:

not “more or less”, it does suck everywhere else. You can take it in a phantasm build for even more cheese fest phantasm builds already are but other than that it has no use worth mentioning.

Nope. It’s pretty handy in dungeon runs to skip mobs or lose aggro for example.
I agree that it’s not the utility that you would keep 100% of the time in your bar like thives do with SR, but it’s definitely not a useless skill outside WvW.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

I mean our class mechanics are Shattering and Phantasms…yet we get ZERO from an Elite for them.

This, yes (but don’t replace MI & TW, I like them when I group). Would be useful for solo PvE play where most of our elites are meh. Moa is useless in PvE, and TW & MI are group oriented.

The class mechanic for thief is “stealing”… not “stealth”. Multiple classes have stealth available. There’s little reason for individual skills to be imbalanced between classes (note I didn’t say “unbalanced”).

This is a relative assessment, not an absolute. It’s OK for a thief to have more stealth skills than a mesmer or a ranger. However the effectiveness of a skill should be similar (effectiveness being the effect of the skill vs. tradeoffs of cooldown time, cast time, and elite status).

That being said, MI is definitely not as effective as shadow refuge. In nearly every regard it’s inferior. There’s no reason for that.

On second thoughts, Mesmer elites fail to compare to most other class elites.

juno, but how does that work given that the “strength” of a skill is context-sensitive? And the contexts are entirely different, given the classes and how they do battle?

In other words, Shadow Refuge as a 1-to-1 copy on a Mesmer would not (per-skill, not the class as a whole!) be balanced against Shadow Refuge on a Thief. The class-context is different, the usage is different, and the support-scaffolding is different.

That’s the very reason why classes should be compared, not abilities. Plus hey, huge radius + you’re not spawning a “Please stack AEs in this circle”-circle with MI. Shadow Refuge, awesome as it is is in PvE, is usually a deathtrap in WvW due to that circle. For all it’s downsides, MI is also lacking SR’s greatest weakness as a stealth skill.

Carighan.6758:

juno, but how does that work given that the “strength” of a skill is context-sensitive? And the contexts are entirely different, given the classes and how they do battle?

In other words, Shadow Refuge as a 1-to-1 copy on a Mesmer would not (per-skill, not the class as a whole!) be balanced against Shadow Refuge on a Thief. The class-context is different, the usage is different, and the support-scaffolding is different.

That’s the very reason why classes should be compared, not abilities. Plus hey, huge radius + you’re not spawning a “Please stack AEs in this circle”-circle with MI. Shadow Refuge, awesome as it is is in PvE, is usually a deathtrap in WvW due to that circle. For all it’s downsides, MI is also lacking SR’s greatest weakness as a stealth skill.

I think all classes can find themselves in identical scenarios (i.e. wanting to party stealth in wvw for example).

The use of a skill relative to everything else inherent to the specific class is important, but I’m trying to simplify the discussion a bit (i.e. notice I didn’t mention any of the thief traits that benefit recipients of stealth). On the surface I think you can compare skills that perform identical tasks between classes.

The weaknesses of SR which you mention are part of the discussion “which is better MI or SR?”. They are definitely weaknesses but I’m don’t feel they outweigh the weaknesses of MI like (1) elite skill slot, (2) long cast time, (3) long recharge time, (4) short stealth duration.

To another poster’s comment regarding mesmer elites: The mesmer elites are pretty much awesome, so I wouldn’t complain. MI is good (and I slot it often, maybe even more than TW). I think MI should be buffed a bit to make it more deserving of its “elite” designation.

Have you also compared Mesmer’s Time Warp to Thieves’ Time Warp?

Actually, i’d like to have an instant cast, lower cd quickness utility for stomping/bursting. Time warp takes time to cast, is VERY obvious and on a huge cd. Unless running in a group, it’s really subpar.

The moment that thieves have the same utility as mesmers do, aoe quickness, a portal, viel that stealths 50+ people (EXTREMELY important for open field WvW fights), an f2 skill that makes them unhittable, clones, and a reviving skill you can come back and complain about us having one mechanic better off than you do. (elongated stealth)

TheAmpca.1753:

The moment that thieves have the same utility as mesmers do, aoe quickness, a portal, viel that stealths 50+ people (EXTREMELY important for open field WvW fights), an f2 skill that makes them unhittable, clones, and a reviving skill you can come back and complain about us having one mechanic better off than you do. (elongated stealth)

If thieves had portal we could argue which portal is better — so yeah the discussion is relevant. You don’t have portal so there’s no point is arguing about specific portal skills.

You have stealth, we have stealth. Nobody here is saying “we should get all the same stealth skills as a thief…”. The discussion in this topic uses SR to illustrate how the elite MI skill is not really elite.

Why my thief’s summons don’t explode on enemies killing them? it’s an elite!!

mrmadhaze.8706:

Why my thief’s summons don’t explode on enemies killing them? it’s an elite!!

Maybe you need to trait for it?

juno.1840:

mrmadhaze.8706:

Why my thief’s summons don’t explode on enemies killing them? it’s an elite!!

Maybe you need to trait for it?

ty!!! now i can play my thiefmer!!! but f2 still doesnt works

As I stated in another thread, I agree MI does not feel elite in most cases, and would be happy if it granted stability for the cast.

To make it truly elite, I would have it shatter all illusions with an offensive effect (daze?) and then when you reappear it creates 3 clones for you to hide among.

Gaiawolf.8261:

As I stated in another thread, I agree MI does not feel elite in most cases, and would be happy if it granted stability for the cast.

To make it truly elite, I would have it shatter all illusions with an offensive effect (daze?) and then when you reappear it creates 3 clones for you to hide among.

An interesting idea.

Maybe make it so that Each clone/phantom shattered increases the duration of the stealth?

0 Clones/Phantoms = 5 Seconds + 0.5second Daze
1 Clone/Phantoms = 5.5seconds + 0.75second Daze
2 Clone/Phantom = 6seconds + 1second Daze
3 Clone/Phantom = 7Seconds + 1.5Second Daze

The shattering of the clones trigger any traits that affect shattering, such as Might, Confusion, Vigor and such.

The question would be, should Illusionary Persona and PU affect this? Taking UP would make it so each version is 1second longer stealth Daze isnt affected and that much stealth would be interesting with PU.

Though this might be taking it a bit to far – when coming out of stealth 3 clones are created (based on current weapon) randomly around you (unlikely Anet have the skill to do this)

A skill that sorta behaves like a new F-key. Maybe make this a sweet F5 skill (stealth with duration based upon clone count). Then simply buff MI with zero cast time, or 2x stealth time, or both.

F5? o.O

Warriors are already complaining about only having F1 (actually i would give them a F2 dependend on their offhand weapon)…4 profession skills is enough, i think (well…actually, necros have 6 ^^)

I was steering away from increasing the stealth duration based on illusion count to avoid balance issues, but that would be cool, especially the synergy with IP. Hehe, PU + IP would rock for a 60 point investment. o_O

juno.1840:

The class mechanic for thief is “stealing”… not “stealth”. Multiple classes have stealth available.

Actually, stealth is part of thief class mechanic. Others may have accesss to stealth, but thief is master of it. Check here: https://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/professions/thief/

The whole comparison is so flawed.

Nuka Cola.8520:

Embolism.8106:

Nuka Cola.8520:

Embolism.8106:

Well, if take Prismatic Understanding you can get 6s of stealth out of Veil; which makes it pretty comparable to Mass Invisibility if you use it just for yourself (or have a very well-organised team).

1. you need to stay close to veil which isn’t something you can always do and 2. its on 90sec CD for 2-3sec stealth and 4-6sec if you sleep on it. Not very impressive if you ask me.

I didn’t say anything about impressiveness, I said it is comparable to MI, which is also 6s stealth on a 90s CD.

lets not put PU as if this trait was used by absolutely everyone… Its 4sec vs 5sec and to get those 4sec from Veil you have to be stuck in same spot while you can move with MI… so the reality is 2sec vs 5.

Eh, I made it quite clear I was talking about “with PU”, so in that context without PU is irrelevant. And you don’t have to stand in one spot, you can run in one direction, dodge back into the curtain and create a Clone and run in the opposite direction. All in all for giving you a 6s breather in a fight it is comparable to MI. You can also reduce its CD if you so desire, can’t do that with MI.

I’m not defending Veil mind you, I consider both Veil and MI to be underpowered. The only reason MI sees use is because our other Elites are situational, MI is the only one that is generally useful; even if its uses are not quite Elite level.

Personally I would like to see MI’s CD be reduced to 60s, and Veil’s CD reduced to 75s, stealth duration increased to 3s and curtain duration increased to 5s.

My only real issue with Mass Invisibility is that it’s not Mass.
It should be, it’s even in the name. Plus it has such a huge radius, which needs a purpose. Make it affect ~50 targets? That’s the AE limit for siege engines, too. and it’s not like we’d be the only class with a more WvW-specialized Elite skill

Carighan.6758:

My only real issue with Mass Invisibility is that it’s not Mass.
It should be, it’s even in the name. Plus it has such a huge radius, which needs a purpose. Make it affect ~50 targets? That’s the AE limit for siege engines, too. and it’s not like we’d be the only class with a more WvW-specialized Elite skill

Such a change would be nice indeed.

Thank you for all the interesting and in many cases, good ideas. I like the idea of adding some functionality (such as stability, or something) to MI to make the 30 point spend a little more worthwhile, and elevating the skill to that 30 point elite status. If something like that were to occur I think I would see the reason behind the cost.

To everyone else who has a problem with this particular comparison, I would point out two things (among many I can think of):

1) Anet implicitly admits they get skills wrong or that then need improvements when they change and rebalance the game. They try things out they think will work. They release the change. They observe player behavior and tendencies. They read the forums. They make changes. That’s the whole point.

2) If you don’t like the comparison and think it invalid, you miss the whole point. The point is this is the 30 point Mesmer elite. If, as you say, Thieves are masters of stealth and no profession should have a trumping stealth skill, then why in the world is a stealth skill the Mesmer 30 point elite? My opinion is it would be a great 6 point utility or maybe even a 10 point elite. Buff it with a boon or one of these other cool ideas and I see 30 points worthwhile.

The amount of skill points you need to invest shouldn’t matter when determining how strong a skill should be. With time, you will get all skills anyway and in PvP they are even available from the start.

Fluffy Ferocious.9807:

Thank you for all the interesting and in many cases, good ideas. I like the idea of adding some functionality (such as stability, or something) to MI to make the 30 point spend a little more worthwhile, and elevating the skill to that 30 point elite status. If something like that were to occur I think I would see the reason behind the cost.

To everyone else who has a problem with this particular comparison, I would point out two things (among many I can think of):

1) Anet implicitly admits they get skills wrong or that then need improvements when they change and rebalance the game. They try things out they think will work. They release the change. They observe player behavior and tendencies. They read the forums. They make changes. That’s the whole point.

2) If you don’t like the comparison and think it invalid, you miss the whole point. The point is this is the 30 point Mesmer elite. If, as you say, Thieves are masters of stealth and no profession should have a trumping stealth skill, then why in the world is a stealth skill the Mesmer 30 point elite? My opinion is it would be a great 6 point utility or maybe even a 10 point elite. Buff it with a boon or one of these other cool ideas and I see 30 points worthwhile.

GW2 will never be a Esport game thats for sure , just been in sPvP and i can tell you its my last time there ! 0 balance) if you play for 2 days sPVP it will feel like only 2 -3 classes out there ! Only option to play a mesmer is an asura ( FOR REAL? yes for real ) and now lets see :
1) anet will never change anything that big ( will admit they are wrong , first rule : they never wrong )
2)if thief master of stealth mesmer master of what ? Nerfed 2x all builds from 6 months ago , heavy anet hammer !

If you see this post and you didnt decide to make a mesmer : dont make it !

Iavra.8510:

The amount of skill points you need to invest shouldn’t matter when determining how strong a skill should be. With time, you will get all skills anyway and in PvP they are even available from the start.

But it does, you will find (mostly) that on other classes at least all the cooler Elites cost 30Points

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Elite

- Guardian: Soloroamer (and afaik PvP) guardians use Renewed Focus which is 10pts. Tome of Courage is good in bigger groups, though.

- Warrior: Rampage is the least used warrior elite.

- Engineer: Mortar…

- Ranger: Okay, the Spirit is very powerful. All 3 got their uses, though.

- Thief: Those 3 are all good.

- Ele: I don’t really see that many eles use Tornado…

- Necro: Ofc Lich is THE elite for power builds, but necro elites are kinda niche in general.

So, no…30pts are not the best elites. And “cool” is subjective.

Iavra.8510:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Elite

- Guardian: Soloroamer (and afaik PvP) guardians use Renewed Focus which is 10pts. Tome of Courage is good in bigger groups, though.

- Warrior: Rampage is the least used warrior elite.

- Engineer: Mortar…

- Ranger: Okay, the Spirit is very powerful. All 3 got their uses, though.

- Thief: Those 3 are all good.

- Ele: I don’t really see that many eles use Tornado…

- Necro: Ofc Lich is THE elite for power builds, but necro elites are kinda niche in general.

So, no…30pts are not the best elites. And “cool” is subjective.

My Engi uses SC and My Ele uses Tornado. But i do love tranformation elites Lich just looks freaking SICK

Skill points for the skill is irrelevant — they accumulate like rain after level 80.

I think the better discussion is whether MI is sufficient “as is” to be considered an elite. Even if it were a 10-point skill, it’s still occupying the elite-slot on my skill bar. I would like to see it improved a bit from its current state.

juno.1840:

Skill points for the skill is irrelevant — they accumulate like rain after level 80.

I think the better discussion is whether MI is sufficient “as is” to be considered an elite. Even if it were a 10-point skill, it’s still occupying the elite-slot on my skill bar. I would like to see it improved a bit from its current state.

^ This.
Does MI need some improvement to deserve its elite status? Maybe.
Does it need to be better than Shadow Refuge in every way? Not really.
The whole comparison just puts the skill way out of context and make people just stop appreciate what they currently have.

I think whatever stand everyone has, we all welcome any improvement to MI. Some already gave great ideas like: increase the no. of targets affected to make it more MASS, or grant stability.