Guild Wars 2

So… Thieves get Shadow Refuge as a non-elite utility which grants up to 11 seconds of stealth (without any kind of modifiers) and Mesmers get Mass Invisibility as a 30(!) skill point elite that grants 5 seconds of stealth. Ummmm what?

I love shadow refuge so I don’t want to see that changed. But why is MI a top tier elite with less effect? Plus, Mesmers can’t run worth a kitten, so it’s like they get stabbed in face twice.

I wonder the same thing. The only thing I can think of is that the Mesmer Elite has a wider area of effect and doesnt require players to sit in a circle for a few seconds.

Justin.7163:

I wonder the same thing. The only thing I can think of is that the Mesmer Elite has a wider area of effect and doesnt require players to sit in a circle for a few seconds.

Yep, there are some subtle differences, perhaps more applicable to WvW or PvP. However, are those differences worth 24 extra skill points AND less stealth time? I’d say no.

Yeah this has ALWAYS annoyed me. Sure people say well ours affects more, well it bloody should for it being an Elite and a 30point one at that and lets not forget that it’s a short duration and long cool down as well.

Personally i think its a joke. Of course we are not meant to be a stealth class like the Thief but come on -

anyone actually happy the way it is?
the fact its an “elite” (a poor excuse for that)?

The ONLY reason i take it – the rest suck in 90% of situations.

Were not meant to be able to match a thief’s stealth. Its kinda their thing.

We have 5 forms of stealth (trait, weapon skill, 2 utilities and an elite) and Prismatic Understanding as it is. Shadow Refuge is one of those exclusive moves that make Thieves valuable on a team, its supposed to make you go “Oh man thieves are so cool for that. Maybe I’ll roll one.” If Mesmer could so something similar then both classes would be less interesting/unique as a result.

It’s very good with Prismatic understanding. Also its not ground targeted. It affects more people. It can be done on the run. Also do thieves get two aoe stealth’s? I seem to think they only get refuge. I love MI, and I always keep it on my bar.

I can never figure out who will or won’t be stealthed by mass invis. It seems like in 90% of the cases only some random people get stealth and everyone else just continues along So it’s even more useless. Consecutive veils from multiple mesmers seems to be a more reliable way to stealth group.

Bugabuga.9721:

I can never figure out who will or won’t be stealthed by mass invis.

Yes! This seriously annoys me. It seems to bug out ALOT. it seems to hate interacting with other forms of stealth (from Thief?) as well as them moving or dodging at the wrong time can mean they dont’t get it.

I have used it and people around me not get it but others further away have, gets really annoying.

I just hope the new skills they are working on brings a good Phantom/shatter Elite so i wont have to use this one anymore.

As a full time thief, part time mesmer, I think Mass Invisibility could use a hefty boost. Shadow Refuge stacks way more stealth, heals, has ground targeting, has 30 seconds less CD (+traitable for -20% more) and casts waaaaaaay faster.

Thieves are the kings of stealth, and I’m fine with that. But that’s not really reason to make the ability suck in comparison. It should be different, not a weaker imitation. Leave the stealth at 5 seconds, but have it do something else. Have it give allies boons, cure conditions, apply distortion/blur upon reappearing, replace allies with clones, or anything else that says to the world “I rolled mesmer, not a imitation thief”.

Edit: Yay, got my first kitten today! Fixifix…

Bugabuga.9721:

I can never figure out who will or won’t be stealthed by mass invis. It seems like in 90% of the cases only some random people get stealth and everyone else just continues along So it’s even more useless. Consecutive veils from multiple mesmers seems to be a more reliable way to stealth group.

One reason is if one of your allies used Shadow Refuge to stealth but broke out of it early, they will have the revealed debuff. if you use Mass Invis, they won’t get it.

Mesmer stealths don’t give the revealed debuff if you come out early.

Mesmer stealths don’t give the revealed debuff if you come out early.

Sure they do…don’t say you never got screwed by having a staff autoattack still bouncing around when using Decoy?

I think doing straight comparison of class skills is literally one of the most useless things anyone could do.

The class skills are balanced around the totality of the class. If we balanced skills by making direct comparisons then we’d only have 1 class in the game.

Godmoney.2048:

I think doing straight comparison of class skills is literally one of the most useless things anyone could do.

The class skills are balanced around the totality of the class. If we balanced skills by making direct comparisons then we’d only have 1 class in the game.

I can think of many more useless things than this. It isn’t even hard.

The point is how much one has to spend on a skill versus another. Say you are building a party in WvW or a dungeon – why would you ever want to use MI versus SR? It’s silly. If MI and SR were in similar tiers as skills, then I wouldn’t care. But this is the 30 point elite we’re talking about for Mesmers. In my mind, there shouldn’t be another profession that has a better skill in their utility that trumps a 30 point elite that gives the same basic function.

you can move while and after mss invis you can’t move out of the hut after refuge. The area is much larger for mass invis as well.

It’s actually not that hard to survive inside of Shadow Refuge as long as you aren’t heavily outnumbered in which case Mass Invis wouldn’t help you that much, either. The long cast time of MI also works in a similar way to a thief having to stay inside his house, with the exception of not already being in stealth and very easy to interrupt.

That said, i am using Mass Invis as i think it’s our most versatile elite skill in open world roaming (Moa is just cheap, uninspired and should be replaced, timewarp basically says “for the next 10 secs, you can’t leave this area or you wasted your elite”. It absolutely has it’s uses for golem rushes, and speedresses/stomps, though).

I’d say, MI could do with a CD decrease (75s is reasonable, i think). Moa should be replaced by something that works with illusions and/or helps against conditions and time warp should definitely be a glamour.

It’s fine that there are those who are defending the current Mass Invisibility and feel that it should not be compared to Shadow Refuge.

But let’s be clear, if you are truly certain that there should not be a change to Mass Invisibility then you really do not have any interest in the Mesmer becoming more effective or “efficient” in any way.

Can people please get their heads out of the sand and just comply with helpful suggestions. There should be no reason to defend the current form of Mass Invisibility

The only thing that really bothers me about that skill is the long cooldown. 90s is just too much imo. Other than that, I am pretty happy with the skill as it is right now.
Would it be OP on a 60s cooldown? I don’t think so. Will it ever happen? Probably not.

Another idea I had a while ago:
Change the functionality so that for every stealthed character/player, MI leaves a copy of that character at that position (up to 3 clones), not overwriting phantasms of course.
I wanna clone my team!

tetrodoxin.2134:

The only thing that really bothers me about that skill is the long cooldown. 90s is just too much imo. Other than that, I am pretty happy with the skill as it is right now.
Would it be OP on a 60s cooldown? I don’t think so. Will it ever happen? Probably not.

Another idea I had a while ago:
Change the functionality so that for every stealthed character/player, MI leaves a copy of that character at that position (up to 3 clones), not overwriting phantasms of course.
I wanna clone my team!

That’s actually a pretty neat idea

+1 my friend

And also it wouldn’t hurt to take away the casting time or make it be 1/2 sec

As a strict comparison? Mass Invisibility requires more investment and has a longer recharge, but it’s also less conditional: it has a huge range and your allies can move entirely freely through the cast / duration. But people have been pointing this out for the entire thread.

Mass Invis could probably stand to apply boons to allies or something for the benefit of PvE formats though, where group stealth is more about running past enemies and dropping aggression. Just strictly on a “This is a group support elite but in too many situations the stealth isn’t actually that helpful” basis. Again, more for PvE: stealth applied tactically against other players can be pretty powerful, and giving it freely to your entire team can be a winning move.

If thieves had a stealth elite, it would have to be way better than mass invisibility. That’s because you have to put everything into context. Thieves are designed to be the masters of stealth, so their stealth skills should be solid. A thief stealth elite would therefore have to be amazing. On the other hand thieves are not really a pet class, and so their elite thieve’s guild is way worse than phantasms in a phantasm build or ranger pets. They have ok survivability and utility, but there’s only two of them, their damage is mediocre and what’s with the cooldown? Well it’s because the elite is adding something to the class that it doesn’t otherwise have access to, and so even if it’s mediocre…on a thief it becomes a solid elite choice.

Mass Invis has the same-ish principle. It is giving mesmers access to invisibility – which is sort of in their wheelhouse, but not intended to be a focus for mesmers. Indeed, you may notice, if you play a stealth mesmer build and a thief build, that mesmers benefit a LOT more from stealth than thieves do. For example, if a mesmer could spam cloak and dagger, it would be ridiculously overpowered. Mesmers do so much better because thieves are balanced with cheap access to stealth in mind. Mesmers – on the other hand have limited access to stealth that is balanced with mesmer skills and DPS in mind. That’s why mesmers will never and should never have access to stealth that is comparable to thieves. And it’s why it really doesn’t make sense to compare a mesmer elite to a thief utility.

By itself mass invisibility is worse in maybe 90% of situations than shadow refuge…It’s also worse than cloak and dagger! But all of that does not matter, because it’s not a thief skill, it’s a mesmer skill, and on a mesmer, it’s great.

I also think it is kind of annoying / disappointing, but it makes sense. We aren’t supposed to compare mesmer and thieves, bc thieves are the real stealth class. Mesmers are utility and trickery based, and MI is simply just a supplementary trick for us. and tricks don’t need to last so long kind of deal?

What bugs me though is comparing veil and MI, they both have same CD, veil affects unlimited? allies as long as they run through it, duration is shorter, and MI only affects up to 5 players? and duration is longer. BUT the issue is it is an Elite Skill that needs 30 points… and yeah… it is an elite skill… Basically Veil and MI for its worth are the same (since they have their disadvantages/advantages). So it doesn’t make sense. Elite skill should be far better and worth it right??

imo, even if it is a small tweak like, MI not needing a cast time, being an instant cast skill will greatly validate the skill

In any case i run a stealth heavy build and I do love all my three stealths (excluding torch). All of them in my fights are very useful and if getting away they are way enough + blink

but yeah just doesn’t make a lot of sense

takatsu.9416:

I also think it is kind of annoying / disappointing, but it makes sense. We aren’t supposed to compare mesmer and thieves, bc thieves are the real stealth class. Mesmers are utility and trickery based, and MI is simply just a supplementary trick for us. and tricks don’t need to last so long kind of deal?

What bugs me though is comparing veil and MI, they both have same CD, veil affects unlimited? allies as long as they run through it, duration is shorter, and MI only affects up to 5 players? and duration is longer. BUT the issue is it is an Elite Skill that needs 30 points… and yeah… it is an elite skill… Basically Veil and MI for its worth are the same (since they have their disadvantages/advantages). So it doesn’t make sense. Elite skill should be far better and worth it right??

imo, even if it is a small tweak like, MI not needing a cast time, being an instant cast skill will greatly validate the skill

In any case i run a stealth heavy build and I do love all my three stealths (excluding torch). All of them in my fights are very useful and if getting away they are way enough + blink

but yeah just doesn’t make a lot of sense

that is a fair comparison…though I think Mass Invis affects 10 people, not 5 and it does give more stealth, and without a clear tell for the enemy (giant line in the ground). It’s also an elite, so cooldowns also have to be balanced with things like Lyssa and Mad King runes in mind.

Hmm, to be fair I’ve never had a problem with Mass invisi, I’ve always found it quite helpful and useful with the annoyance of the casting time. But some of the things ppl have said made me re-think that it is kinda stupid to have a 90s cd, I think this is because it’s only meant to be used ONCE in a fight or something but shortening it to 75s or 60s would still work

bobross.5034:

that is a fair comparison…though I think Mass Invis affects 10 people, not 5 and it does give more stealth, and without a clear tell for the enemy (giant line in the ground). It’s also an elite, so cooldowns also have to be balanced with things like Lyssa and Mad King runes in mind.

oh wait, you can see the veil line from enemy? I remember so many times when the enemy zerg just disappeared cuz they were using a veil tactic. I don’t remember seeing the line, but maybe it was just misperception in the heat of the fight :P But nevertheless, the veil changes the tide of wvw group fights so much… running with a zerg busting group, makes mesmer feel like a god hahaha, portal and veil tactics are amazing

Hmm, i can’t consider the runes to be part of the comparison, because not everyone/not a lot of ppl will use them, limiting usage of other runes for their builds. the skill alone, when compared to a veil tactic in wvw, MI, i practically only use it for roaming/solo purposes

Doesn’t SR grants max possible amount of stealth (13sec)? Anyways, i would take SR as my permanent elite if i had it on mesmer and ignore MI completely

takatsu.9416:

bobross.5034:

that is a fair comparison…though I think Mass Invis affects 10 people, not 5 and it does give more stealth, and without a clear tell for the enemy (giant line in the ground). It’s also an elite, so cooldowns also have to be balanced with things like Lyssa and Mad King runes in mind.

oh wait, you can see the veil line from enemy? I remember so many times when the enemy zerg just disappeared cuz they were using a veil tactic. I don’t remember seeing the line, but maybe it was just misperception in the heat of the fight :P But nevertheless, the veil changes the tide of wvw group fights so much… running with a zerg busting group, makes mesmer feel like a god hahaha, portal and veil tactics are amazing

Hmm, i can’t consider the runes to be part of the comparison, because not everyone/not a lot of ppl will use them, limiting usage of other runes for their builds. the skill alone, when compared to a veil tactic in wvw, MI, i practically only use it for roaming/solo purposes

not sure then…I don’t know if enemies see the line. Anyhow I agree that veil is more useful in zerg fights. On the other hand, you could argue that MI is more useful/less limited when scattered and retreating, as well as in small group battles.

Viel is visible for enemies. Maybe they were 10 people max and used MassInvis (probably multiple times as it stacks) but MassInvis has quite an obvious animation itself (char lifting his arm for ~2s and a white circle quickly expanding afterwards).

DuskDon.9716:

Hmm, to be fair I’ve never had a problem with Mass invisi, I’ve always found it quite helpful and useful with the annoyance of the casting time. But some of the things ppl have said made me re-think that it is kinda stupid to have a 90s cd, I think this is because it’s only meant to be used ONCE in a fight or something but shortening it to 75s or 60s would still work

I use the MI as the Elite skill, in my tPvP matches i use it alot…
I don’t agree the CD should be diminished. I believe it’s fine as it is. The only thing it’s annoying it’s the freaking Cast time. It’s ridiculous.

Increasing the invisibility time for 1-2 secs would be neat too…

Id love something like a second skill (maybe its too similar to mantras) while you are cloaked. Be it a clone near the target, up to three times, or whatever.

You can counter refuge with a pull, push, launch or even something AoE that hits hard enough that he cannot stand in. Mass invis will cloak a bunch of people (meaning you and your clones if no one else is around). Next to being interrupted not much you can do to stop mass invis, and easy to chain off a decoy. My only real problem with this skill is how long it takes to cast.

I kind of agree that 5 seconds is kind of short considering refuge gets both a heal utility and a stealth with a dark field or more stealth. On a 60 sec c/d

But 30 seconds extra and no real counters is pretty fair, but I think it should have a minor stealth buff or a cast reduction buff. Well actually anything added to it would be nice…

But if we’re gonna compare veil needs ALOT more love, there is no reason outside of WvW to run veil! Not to mention it’s only useful in WvW if there are a bunch of Mesmers using it.

This is the dumbest thread i have read. I am completely impartial since i’ve played both mesmer and thief extensively. Not to sound immature, but this is like asking “why can’t thieves summon thieves as they dodge?” “Mesmers can do so just by choosing a trait! We have to use a 180 second cooldown top tier elite!”

Clearly, not every elite will have a proportional benefit to other elites. The difference in utility between shadow refuge and mass invisibility is compensated in other aspects of the class. Not to mention, the radius of mass invisibility is significantly larger than shadow refuge; plus it cannot be made useless with a simple knockback.

Thieves’ unique strengths are their stealth and mobility; whilst mesmers have their clones. It’s ridiculous to even entertain the idea of comparing their stealth access.

Shadow Refuge is the best panic button in the game, so I quess it’s no wonder that MI seems weaker.

Daishi.6027:

You can counter refuge with a pull, push, launch or even something AoE that hits hard enough that he cannot stand in. Mass invis will cloak a bunch of people (meaning you and your clones if no one else is around). Next to being interrupted not much you can do to stop mass invis, and easy to chain off a decoy. My only real problem with this skill is how long it takes to cast.

I kind of agree that 5 seconds is kind of short considering refuge gets both a heal utility and a stealth with a dark field or more stealth. On a 60 sec c/d

But 30 seconds extra and no real counters is pretty fair, but I think it should have a minor stealth buff or a cast reduction buff. Well actually anything added to it would be nice…

But if we’re gonna compare veil needs ALOT more love, there is no reason outside of WvW to run veil! Not to mention it’s only useful in WvW if there are a bunch of Mesmers using it.

You can counter MI with push/pull/launch and even knockdown with its ridiculous casting time so what’s your point? Inside SR if you see people that have a possibility of pulling you out, just dodge or use an evade attack such as death blossom (when no1’s inside SR). With MI you can’t do anything else but raise your hand for half an hour hoping no1 rupts.

Well, to be fair, a countered SR goes on full CD since you already casted it while MI goes on the usual 5s(?) interrupted CD. Won’t help you much when those seconds are all that is needed for you/your team to get bursted but it’s something ^^

Iavra.8510:

Viel is visible for enemies. Maybe they were 10 people max and used MassInvis (probably multiple times as it stacks) but MassInvis has quite an obvious animation itself (char lifting his arm for ~2s and a white circle quickly expanding afterwards).

It was a zerg of around 25 rushing forward haha but oh well, veil still does the job. Most of the time i’m with the group doing veils so i don’t often get to see the veils being used on us

The only major problem I’ve noticed between the two skills is this:

With SR, everyone knows it’s coming and knows when to stop attacking so as to not ruin the granted stealth.
With MI, not everyone can predict when it’s coming; so without proper communication beforehand someone will be in mid attack chain and not even benefit anyway.

You know how an elite stealth skill such as MI should be if they keep stealth to only 5sec and CD at 90sec? Reduce casting time to 1/4sec, decrease cloaked people to 5 BUT it does what Prismatic Understanding does (every sec for 5sec) when you stealth. Now that would be a kitten elite and since SR already heals you by default 5sec of prismatic understanding on MI wouldn’t be ‘OP’

Because mesmer’s have viel which can effectively stealth a 50+ man zerg.

TheAmpca.1753:

Because mesmer’s have viel which can effectively stealth a 50+ man zerg.

for 2sec, YAY

I use Veil in zerg fight to help drop target on my allies. Also, most enemies would mistake it for Temporal Curtain and panic.

That’s the problem with Veil. It’s useful in zerg fights but more or less sucks in every other part of the game.

Well, if take Prismatic Understanding you can get 6s of stealth out of Veil; which makes it pretty comparable to Mass Invisibility if you use it just for yourself (or have a very well-organised team).

Iavra.8510:

That’s the problem with Veil. It’s useful in zerg fights but more or less sucks in every other part of the game.

not “more or less”, it does suck everywhere else. You can take it in a phantasm build for even more cheese fest phantasm builds already are but other than that it has no use worth mentioning.

Embolism.8106:

Well, if take Prismatic Understanding you can get 6s of stealth out of Veil; which makes it pretty comparable to Mass Invisibility if you use it just for yourself (or have a very well-organised team).

1. you need to stay close to veil which isn’t something you can always do and 2. its on 90sec CD for 2-3sec stealth and 4-6sec if you sleep on it. Not very impressive if you ask me.

It has always seemed fairly weak to me. I run it just because it’s a low cd elite for solo stuff (good for rezzing too). That said, I always though it needed something else… like a transform or clone summoning.

Nuka Cola.8520:

Embolism.8106:

Well, if take Prismatic Understanding you can get 6s of stealth out of Veil; which makes it pretty comparable to Mass Invisibility if you use it just for yourself (or have a very well-organised team).

1. you need to stay close to veil which isn’t something you can always do and 2. its on 90sec CD for 2-3sec stealth and 4-6sec if you sleep on it. Not very impressive if you ask me.

I didn’t say anything about impressiveness, I said it is comparable to MI, which is also 6s stealth on a 90s CD.

Embolism.8106:

Nuka Cola.8520:

Embolism.8106:

Well, if take Prismatic Understanding you can get 6s of stealth out of Veil; which makes it pretty comparable to Mass Invisibility if you use it just for yourself (or have a very well-organised team).

1. you need to stay close to veil which isn’t something you can always do and 2. its on 90sec CD for 2-3sec stealth and 4-6sec if you sleep on it. Not very impressive if you ask me.

I didn’t say anything about impressiveness, I said it is comparable to MI, which is also 6s stealth on a 90s CD.

lets not put PU as if this trait was used by absolutely everyone… Its 4sec vs 5sec and to get those 4sec from Veil you have to be stuck in same spot while you can move with MI… so the reality is 2sec vs 5.

Fluffy Ferocious.9807:

So… Thieves get Shadow Refuge as a non-elite utility which grants up to 11 seconds of stealth (without any kind of modifiers) and Mesmers get Mass Invisibility as a 30(!) skill point elite that grants 5 seconds of stealth. Ummmm what?

Have you also compared Mesmer’s Time Warp to Thieves’ Time Warp?
(this should give you the idea why your comparison makes no sense)

Idk why you are comparing those skills in 2 completely diferent classes. Thieves are the masters of stealth, not mesmers, and good thing we dont have that much aviable stealth!

If a mesmer had just as much stealth as a thief basically you would have 1 sec to kill it thx to blurred frenzy, not to mention we can still dmg ppl while stealthed thx to clones and phantasm wich we can cast from stealth without breaking it.

So why thieves get a skill like SR and mesmers MI? Well, diferent classes that have completly diferent mechanics. Tbh i think mesmers stealths are fine as they are, they add missdirection while not being gamebreaking. I wouldt mind less casting time on MI, but thats it.

I personally would be happy if both Time Warp and Mass Invis got replaced. I mean our class mechanics are Shattering and Phantasms…yet we get ZERO from an Elite for them.