Guild Wars 2

For those who didn’t already know this – like me, until just now – you do not get a condition clear when charging the mantra. Even though the tooltip suggests you do.

And here I had just convinced myself I could live with the annoyance of the mantra since it worked so much better with Mender’s Purity. It still does, I suppose, but not worth it now.

Yup. Also, I tried running these before the patch to test out the timing. It doesn’t remove “4 conditions in 20 seconds” like people are fond of stating, as you have to account for the time associated with charging and discharging the mantra.

Still, you can get it to work pretty well with Staff, Torch, and Stealth utilities. However, I wouldn’t use it without at least two of the above.

Except torch/staff builds are usually 20/20/30/0/0. MP is what I use when I try to build more offensive builds that move away from PU, but it’s just too much of a pain to make it work properly unless you pile a ton of points specifically into making the mantra more viable.

I agree with you about the mantra being severely overrated, and the reason is entirely having to do (almost) nothing for 3 seconds every time you charge the darned thing. Since I can’t try to charge it any time I need to be able to react, or any time it might be interrupted, it ends up taking much longer than it should.

It’s actually been working great for me in WvW, I play a power-focused PU phant build, but decoy / veil / MI give me plenty of stealth and aegis in which to safely recharge the healing mantra. After a while you get the pattern of timing your stealth with the mantra cd, and it becomes pretty easy.

The other thing to remember is you can always blink or F4 (or phase retreat) while charging, which often helps get safe charges off too.

After going 30 in domination for harmonious mantras, I’m not sure I can ever go back to ether feast in WvW. Combined with Mender’s purity, the instant spike heals and condi removal are borderline op. And the best part is you don’t need PU because you have so much healing. Also, just time the recharge for when you go decoy or duck behind cover. Once you get used to it, its really not bad. (And I retract a previous comment about hating mantras. I’m beginning to fall in love with them.)

I’ll definitely give them a try again when I go back to WvW. My experience is in PvP so far.

matthen.5024:

Yup. Also, I tried running these before the patch to test out the timing. It doesn’t remove “4 conditions in 20 seconds” like people are fond of stating, as you have to account for the time associated with charging and discharging the mantra.

Yeah you’re absolutely right, its nowhere near 4 conditions in 20 seconds – when fully traited it remove 6 conditions every ~14 seconds.

2.75s charge (no condition removal)
1s cast (2 conditions removed)
1s cast (2 conditions removed)
1s cast (2 conditions removed)
8s cooldown
= 13,75s

Sadly I supect menders will be nerfed soon enough, by giving it a 5-10s cooldown or something. So enjoy it while it last.

Mender’s Purity is currently the only thing making Mantra of Recovery good, and it’s still bad. I doubt they’ll nerf it.

Dawdler.8521:

Yeah you’re absolutely right, its nowhere near 4 conditions in 20 seconds – when fully traited it remove 6 conditions every ~14 seconds.

Yeah, in the real world what they say about that is “looks good on paper”. The problem with it is it doesn’t take into account the need to find a time to charge the mantra when you won’t be interrupted, nor the loss of 3 seconds of being able to do much during that time. Tying condition removal to healing also means you can’t do one or the other at the optimal time.

I’m sure there are times and places where this works well, but it’s definitely not 6 conditions every 14 seconds unless you are in a pretty casual situation (in which case you don’t need it anyway). And personally, I can’t find too many builds where I really want to put 30 points into Domination and then use a grandmaster trait just to make mantras less awful to use. That’s pretty expensive.

Qaelyn.7612:

The problem with it is it doesn’t take into account the need to find a time to charge the mantra when you won’t be interrupted, nor the loss of 3 seconds of being able to do much during that time. Tying condition removal to healing also means you can’t do one or the other at the optimal time.

Not going to say that mantra fit every situation – PvP in one case where it just wont do – but it still wont change the fact that you got a ton of “free” condition removal and about double the hps of any other heal the Mesmer has. The channeling is interruptable yes, but so are the other heals and its just as devastasting when it happen at the wrong time. If you actually do trait for it you got more uninterruptable healing than any other Mesmer heal. You cannot interrupt a mantra cast, doesnt matter which it is. You can even heal when ressing someone, making the mantra Mesmer the ideal medic (especially if you trait feedback on reviving).

If you are really good and cycle the heal/MoP you have almost constant healing. The 2.75s channel is only a loss if you allow it be. Instant skills still work, phantasms are still doing their job. It doesnt work if you’re a perma-dodging shatter Mesmer, no…. I refer to the point above since that is more often than not also a PvP oriented build.

Its true that not many go 30 in domination just for the sake of the mantras – I know I dont, I prefer 0/30/20/20/0 (or similar) and only having restorative mantras/cd reduction.

And as I’ve said before in other threads that bring up mantra healing – stability mantra is critical to make other mantras work. Its the only stability a Mesmer has and it so happens that it last just about the time a channel last. In PvE its acceptable to skip it, in WvW its the one thing that make your mantra healing build a freakin tank.

I’ve found Mantra Mastery (cooldown reduction) to be next to useless. The reason being that you need to time your mantra recharges to moments when you can breath for a sec, and the chance of that moment occurring right at cooldown is next to zero. In general, you’re waiting until you decoy or have stability or cover before you recharge, and the extra few seconds doesn’t really help there. Also, I’m talking wvw here. PvE might be a different story.

Now, if the trait reduced the recharge time by 20 percent, it’s a whole different story.

Dawdler.8521:

matthen.5024:

Yup. Also, I tried running these before the patch to test out the timing. It doesn’t remove “4 conditions in 20 seconds” like people are fond of stating, as you have to account for the time associated with charging and discharging the mantra.

Yeah you’re absolutely right, its nowhere near 4 conditions in 20 seconds – when fully traited it remove 6 conditions every ~14 seconds.

2.75s charge (no condition removal)
1s cast (2 conditions removed)
1s cast (2 conditions removed)
1s cast (2 conditions removed)
8s cooldown
= 13,75s

Sadly I supect menders will be nerfed soon enough, by giving it a 5-10s cooldown or something. So enjoy it while it last.

Well, I meant 4 conditions in 10 seconds. 4 in 20 is what they said before the buff to mender’s purity. Clearly, I also wasn’t talking about the fully traited mantra build (with the 3 cast GM trait), which should be significantly better after investing 40 trait points beyond then 10 points in Mender’s Purity.

However, none of this changes the fact that if you play it against a skilled opponent, you will have a very hard time getting anything near the numbers you suggest (beyond the initial charge). You have to play carefullly, hold your CDs, and do your best to meld your charges into the flow of battle. Against unskilled opponents, it doesn’t matter what you do… you can pinch a loaf in the corner and still spike them. The point is that it’s not a simple “fire and wait”.

Regardless, I don’t see them nerfing it in the near future. Why would they nerf an ability that a minority of mesmer’s take (other than the fact that we’re talking about ANET)?

Dawdler.8521:

And as I’ve said before in other threads that bring up mantra healing – stability mantra is critical to make other mantras work. Its the only stability a Mesmer has and it so happens that it last just about the time a channel last. In PvE its acceptable to skip it, in WvW its the one thing that make your mantra healing build a freakin tank.

That makes sense, but then that makes the claim of 6 condition removals every ~14 seconds even more unrealistic, because now I also have to coordinate the timing of recharging my heal mantra with recharging my stability mantra.

What do I use to prevent the stability mantra recharge from being interrupted? You get the idea.

Again, the problem with mantras for me is that they require too much investment to make them work well. If I can make them effective with a grandmaster trait and a utility slot that I devote for recharging them, great, but that’s a big chunk of build flexibility gone.

Qaelyn.7612:

What do I use to prevent the stability mantra recharge from being interrupted? You get the idea.

Movement, timing, other skills such as stealth. Its not that hard. The enemy hopefully dont have 10 interrupts on a rotating cycle. If he does… Well then you’re dead regardless of having 0 mantras or 4 mantras. Ideally you dont even need to charge your secondary mantras solo combat because you want to kill your foe before that, in zerg combat its very easy to charge due to secondary stability/distraction from other classes.

As I said, instant skills does not interrupt mantra charges. That’s why MoP and MoR can achieve such high hps while still doing damage. When you pop MoP for 1.5-2K damage twice/thrice, you charge MoR at the same time. When you charge MoP, you pop healing at the same time.

It is alot of upkeep and skill handling though. I havent got a full mantra build to work simply because I forget to charge them. Maybe some day Anet see fit to change the entire Mantra mechanics, but I doubt it. Far more likely for them to nerf menders than it is for them to change mantras.

Bunda.2691:

I’ve found Mantra Mastery (cooldown reduction) to be next to useless. The reason being that you need to time your mantra recharges to moments when you can breath for a sec, and the chance of that moment occurring right at cooldown is next to zero. In general, you’re waiting until you decoy or have stability or cover before you recharge, and the extra few seconds doesn’t really help there. Also, I’m talking wvw here. PvE might be a different story.

Now, if the trait reduced the recharge time by 20 percent, it’s a whole different story.

maybe we need trait faster mantra casting ? not 2,75sec but 1,5sec ?

Well, in the interest of it being worth continuing to try different things I am experimenting with a mantra build again. So far so good in hotjoin, but well, it’s hotjoin.

I do miss my 30 points in Chaos and PU though. They are pretty addictive.

Qaelyn.7612:

Well, in the interest of it being worth continuing to try different things I am experimenting with a mantra build again. So far so good in hotjoin, but well, it’s hotjoin.

I do miss my 30 points in Chaos and PU though. They are pretty addictive.

Try going 30 in domination for the harmonious mantras. It’s a whole new playstyle. Right now I’m using an interrupt/phantasm build in wvw. It’s a much more active than PU (but what isn’t), using daze/interrupts defensively and hitting hard with high power. And unlike PU, people aren’t yet as good responding to it.

I’ve found Mantra Mastery (cooldown reduction) to be next to useless. The reason being that you need to time your mantra recharges to moments when you can breath for a sec, and the chance of that moment occurring right at cooldown is next to zero. In general, you’re waiting until you decoy or have stability or cover before you recharge, and the extra few seconds doesn’t really help there. Also, I’m talking wvw here. PvE might be a different story.

Agreed, ANet just combine Harmonious Mantra’s and Mantra Mastery as a GM trait. Add’s an additional charge and reduces mantra cooldowns by 20%.

Qaelyn.7612:

but then that makes the claim of 6 condition removals every ~14 seconds even more unrealistic, because now I also have to coordinate the timing of recharging my heal mantra with recharging my stability mantra.

Add in the fact that the mantra doesn’t start recharging until the last charge is spent… so that theoretical maximum rate doesn’t occur unless you brainlessly spam the three charges as soon as the mantra is loaded.

My point is not that it isn’t decent condition removal. It just not as good as some make it out to be.

Right.

I had some success with a 30/20/0/20/0 build and also tinkered with a few variations. Definitely appreciate the condi clear and the extra healing. But for me, a PU/phantasm hybrid stays alive much longer, does only a little less damage, and is a lot less fussy.

There isn’t any easy way to compare, but if I want to go all-out offense I think my short CD 20/20/0/15/15 phantasm build is probably stronger and again has less fiddling required.

Mantras need tweaking.

matthen.5024:

Add in the fact that the mantra doesn’t start recharging until the last charge is spent… so that theoretical maximum rate doesn’t occur unless you brainlessly spam the three charges as soon as the mantra is loaded.

My point is not that it isn’t decent condition removal. It just not as good as some make it out to be.

That… make absolutely no sense at all since all skills work exactly the same way. They all have their theoretical max.

Or are you going to argue that null field doesnt have a 40s cooldown on its 5 condition removals, just because you waited 10s to cast it? Or because it was interrupted for 2 seconds, suddenly its bad and doesnt perform?

I really dont see mantra recharge as much of a downside anymore. And honestly from using them it has made it easier to see what is going on in a fight. Mantras build patience imo. Coming from WvW, if you think PU is addicting wait till after you get used to Harmonious Mantras with menders purity…

Don’t see how people can argue MP is a bad trait. MoRecovery > MoResolve, heals and shorter cd compared to aoe cnd removal. If you think MP+MoR doesn’t removes 4 mantras in 15s just admit you dont like mantras and kitten or pull your head out of your ‘sand’.

Mantras work fine for me. If you want to get them buffed, I guess I’ll just sit back and get even more stronger. The traited mantra heal is easily the best heal in our kitten nal. I’m hard pressed to think of an even better heal that any other class has. With restorative mantras, it becomes a big spike heal. When you trait it with mantra mastery, it becomes even more spammable. With mender’s purity, you get 4 conditions removed. I could never use ether feast again.