Guild Wars 2

I’m a bit on the fence with Merc going away but now it looks like Sage’s Amulet will be taken.

In any event, we’re going to expect more changes next week so we’ll see where we stand.

Back to carrion + scavenging then.

phokus.8934:

I’m a bit on the fence with Merc going away but now it looks like Sage’s Amulet will be taken.

In any event, we’re going to expect more changes next week so we’ll see where we stand.

I don’t think so. All those healing power will be a wasted stat imo. The healing shatters do not scale very well with healing power iirc.

StickerHappy.8052:

phokus.8934:

I’m a bit on the fence with Merc going away but now it looks like Sage’s Amulet will be taken.

In any event, we’re going to expect more changes next week so we’ll see where we stand.

I don’t think so. All those healing power will be a wasted stat imo. The healing shatters do not scale very well with healing power iirc.

Yeah, they don’t scale well at all—it’s only an extra 112 health per shatter with Sages. Carrion will work nicely, although the removal of toughness amulets for mesmer, necro, and warrior might make some room for power mesmers.

It’s about time!

Dire stats on steroids had no place in PvP IMHO.

What will be interesting is how the loss of 560 toughness vs gaining 3400 life will pan out. 150 power vs 150 condi damage will be another interesting thing to keep an eye on.

If the condichrono remains as THE build for mes, then it’s going to be an even easier matchup for berseker (and it was kitten easy before XD )

Ross Biddle.2367:

If the condichrono remains as THE build for mes, then it’s going to be an even easier matchup for berseker (and it was kitten easy before XD )

This week’s pro league just illustrated how wrong you are. Will it change after these changes? Maybe we’ll see though.

If Warriors were being beaten by Mesmers they were playing Warrior wrong.

Azukas.1426:

Ross Biddle.2367:

If the condichrono remains as THE build for mes, then it’s going to be an even easier matchup for berseker (and it was kitten easy before XD )

This week’s pro league just illustrated how wrong you are. Will it change after these changes? Maybe we’ll see though.

“Pro league” isnt really a good representation of much.

Nice to see you still trying to participate in the conversation though

Especially this week’s matches – they were pretty boring…

so with amulet changes i think we’ll see more warrior

although good mesmer can still be good with carrion or rabid just have to play more careful

messiah.1908:

so with amulet changes i think we’ll see more warrior

although good mesmer can still be good with carrion or rabid just have to play more careful

I don’t think mesmers need to worry about warriors. With phase retreat and blink, it is easy to kite warrior for days unless they go for rifle.

The real threat to mesmers are still revenants and thieves.

Exciton.8942:

messiah.1908:

so with amulet changes i think we’ll see more warrior

although good mesmer can still be good with carrion or rabid just have to play more careful

I don’t think mesmers need to worry about warriors. With phase retreat and blink, it is easy to kite warrior for days unless they go for rifle.

The real threat to mesmers are still revenants and thieves.

Good luck kiting on top of a point…

Remember, this is sPvP. If you’re running away to survive an encounter, you’ve lost the encounter.

Current war setups are either double melee power, gs/rifle power, double melee condi, and melee/longbow condi. LB also had buffs to direct damage in the last patch. Whatever the setup, warrior isnt lacking for pressure vs the condichrono.

BTW, our old kiting prowess vs war used to come via our ability to stealth, reposition, and superior cc/soft cc. Condichrono runs zero stealth, and is virtually immune to stuns/interrupts (in any meaningful way). Way to much condi immunity/cleansing, way to many stun breaks/stability.

Ross Biddle.2367:

Azukas.1426:

Ross Biddle.2367:

If the condichrono remains as THE build for mes, then it’s going to be an even easier matchup for berseker (and it was kitten easy before XD )

This week’s pro league just illustrated how wrong you are. Will it change after these changes? Maybe we’ll see though.

“Pro league” isnt really a good representation of much.

Nice to see you still trying to participate in the conversation though

Nope they don’t set the meta or anything…..

Azukas.1426:

Ross Biddle.2367:

Azukas.1426:

Ross Biddle.2367:

If the condichrono remains as THE build for mes, then it’s going to be an even easier matchup for berseker (and it was kitten easy before XD )

This week’s pro league just illustrated how wrong you are. Will it change after these changes? Maybe we’ll see though.

“Pro league” isnt really a good representation of much.

Nice to see you still trying to participate in the conversation though

Nope they don’t set the meta or anything…..

What meta do they set, exactly? Can you define it please.

Ross Biddle.2367:

Azukas.1426:

Ross Biddle.2367:

Azukas.1426:

Ross Biddle.2367:

If the condichrono remains as THE build for mes, then it’s going to be an even easier matchup for berseker (and it was kitten easy before XD )

This week’s pro league just illustrated how wrong you are. Will it change after these changes? Maybe we’ll see though.

“Pro league” isnt really a good representation of much.

Nice to see you still trying to participate in the conversation though

Nope they don’t set the meta or anything…..

What meta do they set, exactly? Can you define it please.

They set the meta for top tier tourneys like AGs, ESLS, etc. or even high ranked play.

Meta in a sense that the most efficient builds to use in a team setting.

Pro league is the best representation of the pvp scene.

StickerHappy.8052:

Ross Biddle.2367:

Azukas.1426:

Ross Biddle.2367:

Azukas.1426:

Ross Biddle.2367:

If the condichrono remains as THE build for mes, then it’s going to be an even easier matchup for berseker (and it was kitten easy before XD )

This week’s pro league just illustrated how wrong you are. Will it change after these changes? Maybe we’ll see though.

“Pro league” isnt really a good representation of much.

Nice to see you still trying to participate in the conversation though

Nope they don’t set the meta or anything…..

What meta do they set, exactly? Can you define it please.

They set the meta for top tier tourneys like AGs, ESLS, etc. or even high ranked play.

Meta in a sense that the most efficient builds to use in a team setting.

Pro league is the best representation of the pvp scene.

It’s ok Stickers, Azukas doesn’t need your help.

StickerHappy.8052:

Pro league is the best representation of the pvp scene.

That’s pretty arguable. Does one look to the salary of the ceo for the best representation of wages in a company?

The pro league is simply one facet of the PvP scene, but I’d argue that standard highish level play outside of pro league is the best representation.

Exciton.8942:

messiah.1908:

so with amulet changes i think we’ll see more warrior

although good mesmer can still be good with carrion or rabid just have to play more careful

I don’t think mesmers need to worry about warriors. With phase retreat and blink, it is easy to kite warrior for days unless they go for rifle.

The real threat to mesmers are still revenants and thieves.

i didnt mean mesmer need to worry about warrior . just said that we gonna see more warriors now.
while maybe mesmer gonna stick to the role of roaming ability and forget about the holding point ability now warrior can be good in 1v1 and holding points (less roaming)

And my core hybrid build will go to trash…

pico.6402:

And my core hybrid build will go to trash…

read my new thread about condi mes and you might be surprise it didnt

I notice the same names scrambling to try to defend and shout down any perceived anti mesmer posts.

Sad that this forum has turned into this, because all this negativity and hostility is unjustified in the grand scheme of things. The truth of the matter is our class has been top of the food chain for quite a long time now.

Sad.

Fay.2357:

StickerHappy.8052:

Pro league is the best representation of the pvp scene.

That’s pretty arguable. Does one look to the salary of the ceo for the best representation of wages in a company?

The pro league is simply one facet of the PvP scene, but I’d argue that standard highish level play outside of pro league is the best representation.

But let’s be frank here, what else is the best representation of pvp? The people you see in AGs and ESLs are the same people in PL, imo its just a different name but let’s say top tier is best representation of pvp.

StickerHappy.8052:

Fay.2357:

StickerHappy.8052:

Pro league is the best representation of the pvp scene.

That’s pretty arguable. Does one look to the salary of the ceo for the best representation of wages in a company?

The pro league is simply one facet of the PvP scene, but I’d argue that standard highish level play outside of pro league is the best representation.

But let’s be frank here, what else is the best representation of pvp? The people you see in AGs and ESLs are the same people in PL, imo its just a different name but let’s say top tier is best representation of pvp.

By standard highish level play I’m talking more than the 15-25 “pros”. I’m talking the top 300-500 players, maybe even 1000-1500 players. When you expand to that size, you get a much better idea of what’s actually viable for the playerbase as a whole.

You may say ‘but the top 1500 players doesn’t accurately reflect how the game performs for the pro league folks’, and you’d be right. However, that ultimately doesn’t matter. The pro league folks will find the optimal builds to play, and will use those builds. There will always be 5-6 top builds/classes, and several left at garbage tier for pro league. This is inherent to the fact that the balance team is not the right hand of god. So regardless of how the balance is, pro league will always look roughly the same.

So the question becomes: if pro league balance doesn’t matter, what does matter? Well, what matters is having the vast majority of players being able to enjoy/have a chance in PvP. That’s why you look at the top 1000-1500; it gets you a much more realistic view of what the current PvP environment is. Not everything will be viable in pro league, but as long as it’s reasonably viable in the top 1500, then it’s ok because that means the majority of players will find it viable.

Tl;dr: There will always be unviable classes at the pro league level, and this is ok. What matters is that all class are viable below the pro league level.

Fay.2357:

StickerHappy.8052:

Fay.2357:

StickerHappy.8052:

Pro league is the best representation of the pvp scene.

That’s pretty arguable. Does one look to the salary of the ceo for the best representation of wages in a company?

The pro league is simply one facet of the PvP scene, but I’d argue that standard highish level play outside of pro league is the best representation.

But let’s be frank here, what else is the best representation of pvp? The people you see in AGs and ESLs are the same people in PL, imo its just a different name but let’s say top tier is best representation of pvp.

By standard highish level play I’m talking more than the 15-25 “pros”. I’m talking the top 300-500 players, maybe even 1000-1500 players. When you expand to that size, you get a much better idea of what’s actually viable for the playerbase as a whole.

You may say ‘but the top 1500 players doesn’t accurately reflect how the game performs for the pro league folks’, and you’d be right. However, that ultimately doesn’t matter. The pro league folks will find the optimal builds to play, and will use those builds. There will always be 5-6 top builds/classes, and several left at garbage tier for pro league. This is inherent to the fact that the balance team is not the right hand of god. So regardless of how the balance is, pro league will always look roughly the same.

So the question becomes: if pro league balance doesn’t matter, what does matter? Well, what matters is having the vast majority of players being able to enjoy/have a chance in PvP. That’s why you look at the top 1000-1500; it gets you a much more realistic view of what the current PvP environment is. Not everything will be viable in pro league, but as long as it’s reasonably viable in the top 1500, then it’s ok because that means the majority of players will find it viable.

Tl;dr: There will always be unviable classes at the pro league level, and this is ok. What matters is that all class are viable below the pro league level.

Isn’t top 1000-1500 would prolly more or less look the same? (If pvp population reaches that high) I mean we have metabattle to thank for that. Not a lot of players are avid theorycrafters nor have the time to do so.

Maybe it’s just me but every class is viable below tourney level. Anything will work for solo q, as long as it’s a working build. You can be selfish as you want with your build and it will not matter.

So wouldn’t it better to expand the sample size but limit it to coordinated teams?

Azukas.1426:

I notice the same names scrambling to try to defend and shout down any perceived anti mesmer posts.

Sad that this forum has turned into this, because all this negativity and hostility is unjustified in the grand scheme of things. The truth of the matter is our class has been top of the food chain for quite a long time now.

Sad.

And on that note, we also notice the same names continually making the same bad claims, and offering the same bad (or no) arguments. Funny how this works.

Was the question to difficult? Is it easier just to turn the focus on to the person/s and away from the topic? Are there no valid arguments left that we must resort to this

Ohwell. I can’t say I expected more.

Ross Biddle.2367:

Azukas.1426:

I notice the same names scrambling to try to defend and shout down any perceived anti mesmer posts.

Sad that this forum has turned into this, because all this negativity and hostility is unjustified in the grand scheme of things. The truth of the matter is our class has been top of the food chain for quite a long time now.

Sad.

And on that note, we also notice the same names continually making the same bad claims, and offering the same bad (or no) arguments. Funny how this works.

Was the question to difficult? Is it easier just to turn the focus on to the person/s and away from the topic? Are there no valid arguments left that we must resort to this

Ohwell. I can’t say I expected more.

You are always such a jerk here ross hahaha. Why are you not like this in game?

Azukas.1426:

Ross Biddle.2367:

If the condichrono remains as THE build for mes, then it’s going to be an even easier matchup for berseker (and it was kitten easy before XD )

This week’s pro league just illustrated how wrong you are. Will it change after these changes? Maybe we’ll see though.

This is wrong.

Only two warriors actually ran the M/Sh + LB merc build that people said beats mes: Sunfish and Denshee. Sunfish’s warrior absolutely wrecked every fight he participated in (including fights where the condimes was present). Denshee’s team also won, but that matchup is not a good representation because ORNG was purposely throwing the match and TCG was just messing around .

The other two guys who played warrior ran different builds: Zeromis (sword/torch over longbow) and Tao (wanderer over merc). Neither of them performed all that well, which only suggests that the mace/shield + longbow variant works better in this particular meta (which will change in a week anyways).

As for the future of mes — I can see Sage working as a replacement. I understand the shatter heal doesn’t scale well with Sage’s, but the loss in toughness isn’t gamebreaking given that mesmer still has plenty of ways to avoid power damage. I tested Wanderer’s a little bit and noticed a very noticeable loss in DPS, but it might be worth exploring more in Season 3.

I actually used to play Viper over Merc through most of Season 2 and wouldn’t suggest it as an alternative. You get instagibbed if you fail to dodge any bursts. Even autoattacks are deadly when you’re in viper. The increase in damage stats doesn’t justify the extra time you have to spend kiting. Viper makes you squishier than a power-shsatter mes, except you don’t have the burst damage to quickly end fights or the stealth to reliably disengage.

Unless Mes gets some overhauls, I don’t see the amulet changes bringing Power Mes back into the meta. Revs and thieves still counter power mes way too hard.

Why is an obvious thief player pretending to be a mesmer player?

StickerHappy.8052:

Ross Biddle.2367:

Azukas.1426:

I notice the same names scrambling to try to defend and shout down any perceived anti mesmer posts.

Sad that this forum has turned into this, because all this negativity and hostility is unjustified in the grand scheme of things. The truth of the matter is our class has been top of the food chain for quite a long time now.

Sad.

And on that note, we also notice the same names continually making the same bad claims, and offering the same bad (or no) arguments. Funny how this works.

Was the question to difficult? Is it easier just to turn the focus on to the person/s and away from the topic? Are there no valid arguments left that we must resort to this

Ohwell. I can’t say I expected more.

You are always such a jerk here ross hahaha. Why are you not like this in game?

It’s all a matter of perspective. I’m just having fun, and taking exception with some of the silly things I read on the forums XD

DaShi.1368:

Why is an obvious thief player pretending to be a mesmer player?

He or She is using stealth

DaShi.1368:

Why is an obvious thief player pretending to be a mesmer player?

That’s a good plan just believe a mesmer player can’t obviously make statements against mesmers.

I think all the pro league mesmers aren’t mesmers either since they echo what I’m saying lol.

That being said I got 1 class left to learn and that’s thief. Gave it a whirl awhile back but never did much with it.

Thanks for the attention

Oh, oops. Posted that in the wrong thread.

We’ll see what happens with the other balance tweaks tomorrow, but so far my favorite post-nerf setup is the s2 meta build, subbing in Carrion ammy, guardian runes, and swapping out sword for scepter.

Random thoughts:

1) Guardian rune is main-stat toughness, so you only end up down about 375 toughness and the extra vit makes up for it
2) That said, you do have to play on the edges of the team fights a bit more
3) Scepter edges out sword IMO: burn on block from rune set, CI buff, confusion completely shuts down thieves (who are popping up again and benefit from decreased toughness on mesmer)
4) Shield 4 blocking precision strike procs burns (wouldn’t have thought it, but I’m no expert with technicalities of skill interactions)
5) Ineptitude > MoF, loading up on the offensive block (AoE diversion is less valuable with the reduced tankiness)
6) Starting to prefer Gravity Well over Moa: extra ranged cleave/interrupt on downed bodies is nice now that it’s harder to sit in the middle of a team fight

cyyrix.6105:

We’ll see what happens with the other balance tweaks tomorrow, but so far my favorite post-nerf setup is the s2 meta build, subbing in Carrion ammy, guardian runes, and swapping out sword for scepter.

Random thoughts:

1) Guardian rune is main-stat toughness, so you only end up down about 375 toughness and the extra vit makes up for it
2) That said, you do have to play on the edges of the team fights a bit more
3) Scepter edges out sword IMO: burn on block from rune set, CI buff, confusion completely shuts down thieves (who are popping up again and benefit from decreased toughness on mesmer)
4) Shield 4 blocking precision strike procs burns (wouldn’t have thought it, but I’m no expert with technicalities of skill interactions)
5) Ineptitude > MoF, loading up on the offensive block (AoE diversion is less valuable with the reduced tankiness)
6) Starting to prefer Gravity Well over Moa: extra ranged cleave/interrupt on downed bodies is nice now that it’s harder to sit in the middle of a team fight

I had this idea before, but IMO, the burns will only worth it if you get it to atleast 2 seconds.

StickerHappy.8052:

I had this idea before, but IMO, the burns will only worth it if you get it to atleast 2 seconds.

Yeah, the burns are more supplementary. You can try to block offensively, but it only punishes bad players anyways.

Nightmare is still an OK choice, but after getting two-shot by an invocation rev I decided some toughness was nice to have. The problem is the amulets that provide toughness felt weak. Rabid guts power output, Wanderer’s was only slightly better and Viper’s guts survivability. Sage is just a bad version of Carrion given how poorly healing scales on mesmer.

Azukas.1426:

Thanks for the attention

I am starting to get a pretty good picture of why you are pretending to be a mesmer on the mesmer forums screaming for nerfs.

Azukas.1426:

I think all the pro league mesmers aren’t mesmers either since they echo what I’m saying lol.

Just to reiterate what i said in another thread. The opinion of three people playing the highest level of PVP is not indicative of the state a class is in any form. Mesmer might be incredible in a party of 5 coordinated players that doesnt allow stacking classes. But i have lost – and won- so many times against/with multi-mesmer teams in spvp, that i can at least state that on their own mesmers are not wrecking kitten and not a “we win, because we have 5 mesmers on the team” situation, as it was with necros last season.

Yes, mesmers are incredibly powerful. For the role they have which is effectively beeing able to hold a point against most classes (moa) while helping out on another point (portal). That doesnt automatically make them gods everywhere else, as you are suggesting. But i digress, arguing with you is a collosal waste of time, because by this point i am pretty sure you are just attention kitten.