Guild Wars 2

Hello fellow Scepter/Pistol Mesmers,

I’m come to notice a frustrating bug with Skill 1 of the Scepter and Skill 4 of the Pistol (Phantasmal Duelist).

Every single time I have 3 Phantasmal Duelists out, the 3rd Attack of Skill 1 for the Scepter creates a clone and dissolves one of my Duelists.

I do not believe this is working as intended because it was always my assumption that clones never override Phantasms. Has anyone else experienced this? I can recreate this 100% of the time.

~Lothi, Stormbluff Isles

A new illusion destroys an old illusion.

It’s working as intended.

Have you considered the possibility that arenanet doesn’t want you to just sit on phantasms?

A Clone will never replace an illusion unless there are no clones to replace. It’s working as intended but with scepter you may just not be able to have 3 illusions up could always try using a sword instead since it is a much better weapon but it has risks.

A) A 4th illusion will always replace an illusion.
B) A clone will always try to replace a clone, if it can.
C) A phantasm will always replace a clone, if it can.

Thus, the only situation in which a clone will replace a phantasm is if you have 3 phantasms out, unfortunately and I do believe that that is working as intended.

The fundamental problem, as I see it, is that the #1 ability should be spammable and never be detrimental to your character’s damage dealing ability, regardless of your build. The scepter #1 ability can override a dps phantasm, which is not a good thing.

Thedenofsin.7340:

The fundamental problem, as I see it, is that the #1 ability should be spammable and never be detrimental to your character’s damage dealing ability, regardless of your build. The scepter #1 ability can override a dps phantasm, which is not a good thing.

Thank you for clarifying my point. There is more to Mesmers than just shattering illusions.

It is viable (and dare I say superior in PvE encounters) to “sit” on your Phantasms.

I’ll call your dare: it is viable but not superior.

It just means that Scepter is an awkward weapon for a 3x Phantasm strategy, similar to Greatsword. Of course, if you are doing the “afk Phantasm army”, it’s pretty obvious that offhand Sword (power) and Pistol (condition damage+IS+crit), or Staff (power or condition damage) are going to be your best general options. Guess that doesn’t help with the Scepter mainhand issue, except that MH Sword generally makes a better power weapon than Scepter. The blind is good though; often better than Blurred Frenzy for avoiding damage.

You could also stick with Scepter, but manage it properly: e.g. only swap to Scepter to summon the “first wave” of Phantasms, and switch to your primary (likely Staff) for most of your play.

I don’t understand why the clone spawn isn’t removed from Scepter #1 and moved to Scepter #2, Counter Spell. That way you have a spammable ability with Scepter #1 and you know that your Scepter #2 will always create a clone.

Scepter 2 does create a clone when you block.

Scepter is the “clone-spammiest” weapon. I think the notion was for the clones to by shatter fodder for more confusion, but it doesn’t work that way in practice.

EasymodeX.4062:

I’ll call your dare: it is viable but not superior.

It just means that Scepter is an awkward weapon for a 3x Phantasm strategy, similar to Greatsword. Of course, if you are doing the “afk Phantasm army”, it’s pretty obvious that offhand Sword (power) and Pistol (condition damage+IS+crit), or Staff (power or condition damage) are going to be your best general options. Guess that doesn’t help with the Scepter mainhand issue, except that MH Sword generally makes a better power weapon than Scepter. The blind is good though; often better than Blurred Frenzy for avoiding damage.

You could also stick with Scepter, but manage it properly: e.g. only swap to Scepter to summon the “first wave” of Phantasms, and switch to your primary (likely Staff) for most of your play.

Is there a forum for min/max discusson for Mesmers (or will this be it)? While I still feel that the perpetual upkeep of Phantasms is (or will be) the best DPS strategy on a Mesmer, that is only anecdotal and not backed by hard figures.

You say it’s not superior but I would like to start to see actual figures to back that up. Great discussion so far though.

Also keep in mind that some mesmers (myself included) actually use the scepter for its intended purpose… to spam clones for shattering and fodder. To change that would affect many condition mesmers such as I play in Spvp. I would suggest a different wep probably geatsword as it doesn’t naturally generate any clones and you get an additional phant out of it.

Itolis.8590:

Also keep in mind that some mesmers (myself included) actually use the scepter for its intended purpose… to spam clones for shattering and fodder. To change that would affect many condition mesmers such as I play in Spvp. I would suggest a different wep probably geatsword as it doesn’t naturally generate any clones and you get an additional phant out of it.

I’m confused though. How would making Scepter 1 not override a 3 Phantasm team affect the functionality of a Shatter/Fodder build? Removing this override does not change the fundamentals of the weapon.

Also, Greatsword 2 creates a clone on hit. I have not yet tested whether it would remove one of 3 live Phantasm Berserkers.

Diretemus.7235:

There is more to Mesmers than just shattering illusions.

There is more to just sitting on your phantoms.
If you are going to severely limit your build, don’t expect everything to work well with it.

There are some builds which take advantage of the clone spamming of the scepter. For example, several traits (debilitating dissipation and crippling dissipation) take advantage of clone deaths. So when a scepter user has 3 illusions (clones/phantasms) the 4th generation will kill one of the 3 existing illusions (clones if possible or phantasms if all 3 are phantasms). This lets the traits proc and apply AOE conditions to all nearby foes.

Honestly, any time you can keep 3 phantasms up you can probably use a different weapon’s auto-attack. The only time I think you can keep 3 phantasms up is in a large group where the phantasms don’t take aggro.

I personally can’t think of a benefit of using a scepter when you are using 3 phantasms as I think the weapon was designed for a different style of combat.

I don’t believe replacing a clone activates “on clone death” traits

And I personally use a Scepter condition build that maximizes Illusionary Duelists + Ethereal fields to stack confusion and bleeds. It would be preferable if I didn’t overwrite duelists, and it detracts nothing from any other build. Shatter or otherwise.

Also, a question. I know little about shattering because I don’t do it and I’m not at home to test. But, if you are mid mind wrack and the clones are running to your target and you pop out a new clone and it replaces one… What happens? Does it attempt to shatter or you just wasted one of your shatter clones?

Mac.1936:

I don’t believe replacing a clone activates “on clone death” traits

It does
I wrote about a build that uses scepter and duelists, alongside shattering here:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Guide-PvE-Dungeon-Builds-With-Tips-and-Tricks/

If you shatter, and then summon an illusion right after, it pops right out normally as if you had no clones. When you shatter, mechanically speaking you have 0 clones except you still get the passive bonuses for having them if you’re specced into that.

Alrighty, fair enough. I suppose that is one reason that clones should be replaced. But, there are numerous instances where it is detrimental.

I don’t really care if a change is made or not, but it seems to me that there are more mesmer builds that would benefit from it than not.

I mean, clones replacing clones? Fine go to it, get your on death trait. Clones replacing phantasms? I’m not convinced.

Mac.1936:

Alrighty, fair enough. I suppose that is one reason that clones should be replaced. But, there are numerous instances where it is detrimental.

I don’t really care if a change is made or not, but it seems to me that there are more mesmer builds that would benefit from it than not.

There is 1 instance where it’s detrimental, and that is when you have a 3 Phantasm setup and you aren’t doing anything but auto attacking. If that’s the case you should be using your staff anyway if you’re just auto attacking. That’s the biggest thing that’s confusing me. Why are we auto attacking with the focus if we have 3 phantasms up?

3 Phantom AFK is an inflexible build, you shouldn’t everything to synergize with it. It’s actually getting strange how many people are saying things along the lines of “this skill is bad when I’m using this one specific build, fix it!”

I do agree that we should probably have a power focused ranged main hand weapon though. The staff is outstanding, and I don’t think raw damage is how mesmers were “meant” to be played but it would still be nice to have that flexibility. Sword/Focus + Sword/Pistol is awesome for PvP but it obviously lacks range.

Thinking you need to use staff when phantasms are up is inflexible. I use scepter for block and confusion. Should I not auto attack during this time?

Mac.1936:

Thinking you need to use staff when phantasms are up is inflexible. I use scepter for block and confusion. Should I not auto attack during this time?

Uh, considering you CAN’T auto attack while using your confusion and block, I would say that no, you should not auto attack during that time.

Having a second weapon set is not being inflexible. I just mentioned the staff because it’s very common and excellent. You also have the option of the sword, and GS. People are picking the weapon with the least synergy for their build and wondering why the auto attack isn’t that great.

Mac.1936:

It would be preferable if I didn’t overwrite duelists, and it detracts nothing from any other build. Shatter or otherwise.

Very good point.

Mac.1936:

Also, a question. I know little about shattering because I don’t do it and I’m not at home to test. But, if you are mid mind wrack and the clones are running to your target and you pop out a new clone and it replaces one… What happens? Does it attempt to shatter or you just wasted one of your shatter clones?

The moment you shatter your illusions, your effective clone count drops to 0. The system will allow for an additional clone to be created even if the 3 clones running to shatter have not dissolved yet.

Rhyno.7084:

Mac.1936:

Thinking you need to use staff when phantasms are up is inflexible. I use scepter for block and confusion. Should I not auto attack during this time?

Uh, considering you CAN’T auto attack while using your confusion and block, I would say that no, you should not auto attack during that time.

Having a second weapon set is not being inflexible. I just mentioned the staff because it’s very common and excellent. You also have the option of the sword, and GS. People are picking the weapon with the least synergy for their build and wondering why the auto attack isn’t that great.

So I’m just suppose to sit there after blocking and casting confusion until I can switch back to staff. Got it.

Scepter/Pistol and Staff is the most synergy for my build… being a condition build. I also happen to use phantasms to combo field confusion.

It sounds like whatever build you are using that this is detrimental to is the inflexible one.

Mac.1936:

Rhyno.7084:

Mac.1936:

Thinking you need to use staff when phantasms are up is inflexible. I use scepter for block and confusion. Should I not auto attack during this time?

Uh, considering you CAN’T auto attack while using your confusion and block, I would say that no, you should not auto attack during that time.

Having a second weapon set is not being inflexible. I just mentioned the staff because it’s very common and excellent. You also have the option of the sword, and GS. People are picking the weapon with the least synergy for their build and wondering why the auto attack isn’t that great.

So I’m just suppose to sit there after blocking and casting confusion until I can switch back to staff. Got it.

Scepter/Pistol and Staff is the most synergy for my build… being a condition build. I also happen to use phantasms to combo field confusion.

It sounds like whatever build you are using that this is detrimental to is the inflexible one.

The scepter offers 2 things for condition builds: confusing images, and clones to fuel shatters, if you’re traited into having all shatters inflict confusion. That’s it, everything else is power based.

Numot.3965:

Mac.1936:

Rhyno.7084:

Mac.1936:

Thinking you need to use staff when phantasms are up is inflexible. I use scepter for block and confusion. Should I not auto attack during this time?

Uh, considering you CAN’T auto attack while using your confusion and block, I would say that no, you should not auto attack during that time.

Having a second weapon set is not being inflexible. I just mentioned the staff because it’s very common and excellent. You also have the option of the sword, and GS. People are picking the weapon with the least synergy for their build and wondering why the auto attack isn’t that great.

So I’m just suppose to sit there after blocking and casting confusion until I can switch back to staff. Got it.

Scepter/Pistol and Staff is the most synergy for my build… being a condition build. I also happen to use phantasms to combo field confusion.

It sounds like whatever build you are using that this is detrimental to is the inflexible one.

The scepter offers 2 things for condition builds: confusing images, and clones to fuel shatters, if you’re traited into having all shatters inflict confusion. That’s it, everything else is power based.

I’m not sure what you are trying to add to the convo. Scepter is the only 1 hand main hand that offers condition damage. Yes, some of it is based on power… but at least there is condition damage. Also, it’s the only way to get 20+ stacks of confusion relatively easily.

Mac.1936:

Rhyno.7084:

Mac.1936:

Thinking you need to use staff when phantasms are up is inflexible. I use scepter for block and confusion. Should I not auto attack during this time?

Uh, considering you CAN’T auto attack while using your confusion and block, I would say that no, you should not auto attack during that time.

Having a second weapon set is not being inflexible. I just mentioned the staff because it’s very common and excellent. You also have the option of the sword, and GS. People are picking the weapon with the least synergy for their build and wondering why the auto attack isn’t that great.

So I’m just suppose to sit there after blocking and casting confusion until I can switch back to staff. Got it.

Scepter/Pistol and Staff is the most synergy for my build… being a condition build. I also happen to use phantasms to combo field confusion.

It sounds like whatever build you are using that this is detrimental to is the inflexible one.

Uh, what? You’re the one complaining that the weapon you’re choosing to auto attack with conflicts with 3phant. I don’t know why you think every weapon should synergize perfectly with every build. I’m explaining mechanics to you and you’re accusing me of having an inflexible build? Hell no, I don’t have these problems because I build around what we have, not what I ask for on the forums.

Weapon swap is on a 10 second CD. Scepter 1 resets in like 3 seconds.

Swap -> Scepter 1, Scepter 1, Confusion, Scepter 1, Scepter 1, Pistol 5/Block -> Swap if you want, or use your remaining skills, summon a phantom, whatever.

There, 0% idle time and you didn’t summon a single clone. This really isn’t difficult.

I’m saying it doesn’t synergize with any build. You are saying it’s a terrible idea. I mean, if your build isn’t effected by this why is it such a terrible idea? In what situation is a clone going to outweigh a phantasm?

Mac.1936:

I’m saying it doesn’t synergize with any build. You are saying it’s a terrible idea. I mean, if your build isn’t effected by this why is it such a terrible idea? In what situation is a clone going to outweigh a phantasm?

The two painfully obvious instances are clone debuffs on deaths coupled with projectile blocking. Sacrificial clones are life savers and turn some bosses into cakewalks.

Making this change would strip that ability away. Keeping it the way it is requires you to not AFK auto attack. At WORST you have what, one or two seconds where you should roll or just not auto attack? What a terrible fate.

Scepter #1 is terrible for anything except clone spamming for shatter fodder. It creates the least useful type of clone (lowest attack speed, no conditions/boons, and doesn’t even have the same attack pattern as the mesmer) while having the lowest dps autoattack. As a niche weapon that may be acceptable, but as the only mesmer ranged 1h weapon it’s problematic.

No one seems to be getting it right, so I’ll take a whack at it. The word “illusion” describes both clones and phantasms. Phantasms and clones alike are considered illusions.

Clones, according to arenanet, supposedly only replace other clones. Phantasms will replace either.

Effusion.4831:

Scepter #1 is terrible for anything except clone spamming for shatter fodder. It creates the least useful type of clone (lowest attack speed, no conditions/boons, and doesn’t even have the same attack pattern as the mesmer) while having the lowest dps autoattack. As a niche weapon that may be acceptable, but as the only mesmer ranged 1h weapon it’s problematic.

A clone is a clone. Clones do not differentiate from each other.

If you mean a phantasm, scepter by itself has no phantasm. Only offhands and 2h weapons have phantasms.

scepter has it’s autoattack, a block/blind and a channeled confusion spell.

Diretemus.7235:

Itolis.8590:

Also keep in mind that some mesmers (myself included) actually use the scepter for its intended purpose… to spam clones for shattering and fodder. To change that would affect many condition mesmers such as I play in Spvp. I would suggest a different wep probably geatsword as it doesn’t naturally generate any clones and you get an additional phant out of it.

I’m confused though. How would making Scepter 1 not override a 3 Phantasm team affect the functionality of a Shatter/Fodder build? Removing this override does not change the fundamentals of the weapon.

Also, Greatsword 2 creates a clone on hit. I have not yet tested whether it would remove one of 3 live Phantasm Berserkers.

The issue with this is it would completely neuter any reactive clone generating abilities.
You couldn’t just stop the scepter from overwriting phantasms. It would either be no clones overwriting or all clones overwriting. If you stop clones from overwriting phantasms you can say goodbye to half the sPvP builds.

StickAndMove.6419:

No one seems to be getting it right, so I’ll take a whack at it. The word “illusion” describes both clones and phantasms. Phantasms and clones alike are considered illusions.

Clones, according to arenanet, supposedly only replace other clones. Phantasms will replace either.

A clone will replace a phantasm if you have 3 phantasms out. This is tested and proven by many people in many different situations.

piitb.7635:

Effusion.4831:

Scepter #1 is terrible for anything except clone spamming for shatter fodder. It creates the least useful type of clone (lowest attack speed, no conditions/boons, and doesn’t even have the same attack pattern as the mesmer) while having the lowest dps autoattack. As a niche weapon that may be acceptable, but as the only mesmer ranged 1h weapon it’s problematic.

A clone is a clone. Clones do not differentiate from each other.

If you mean a phantasm, scepter by itself has no phantasm. Only offhands and 2h weapons have phantasms.

scepter has it’s autoattack, a block/blind and a channeled confusion spell.

I mean that scepter clones only use the first attack in the scepter attack chain, making them even easier to recognize compared to the clones of other weapons. They attack more slowly than other types of clones, thus making them less useful for proccing sharper images. And they don’t apply any secondary effects (staff clones apply staff boons/conditions and sword clones apply vulnerability. I’m not sure if sword clones strip boons as well).

The problem here is more with the fact that Scepter clones in turn cast the same attack we do. Would it be terminally bad if they would cast the #3 attack, albeit at a much slower rate?

Itolis.8590:

Also keep in mind that some mesmers (myself included) actually use the scepter for its intended purpose… to spam clones for shattering and fodder. To change that would affect many condition mesmers such as I play in Spvp. I would suggest a different wep probably geatsword as it doesn’t naturally generate any clones and you get an additional phant out of it.

it generates clones on attack 2, it generates one right at your target which is sometimes really handy.

So what is the status of this bug?
From my point scepter #1 is bugged, there is no reason to override phantasm by clone.

What about reactive clones? Like the ones that appear to replace you during an enemy attack like the counter strikes? If a clone didn’t replace a phantasm, that’d be another problem for that particular situation.

Basically, if an illusion didn’t replace the fourth, you’d be locked into whatever phants you had, even when downed, that’d make the #2 ability (the one that teleports you and replaces you with a clone) very problematic in that you couldn’t swap yourself if you died with 3 phants out and illusions always attack their primary target, not who’s attacking you.

The amount of incorrect assumptions in this thread as absolutely astounding. The situation described is EXACTLY working as intended, end of story.
1. Phantasms will attempt to overwrite a clone, and then overwrite the oldest phantasm
2. Clones will attempt to overwrite a clone, and then overwrite the oldest phantasm.

This has always been the case, and will always been the case. If you want to run a build with 3 phantasms out doing damage, I highly suggest not using mainhand scepter.

The actual problem here, is that mesmers have no viable ranged mainhand weapons that are not pidgeonholed into a clone factory build by virtue of the 1 attack. The scepter works fine for what it’s designed to do, but unfortunately, it’s only designed to do 1 specific thing: generate clones (making confusion is a useful side-effect). Mesmers really need a true midrange mainhand weapon that is not limited in functionality to a clone factory build (pistol anyone?).

Pyroatheist.9031:

Mesmers really need a true midrange mainhand weapon that is not limited in functionality to a clone factory build (pistol anyone?).

How I wish..

Personally, I love scepter how it is and would definitely agree with adding pistol as another mid-range single handed option. As far as main hand weapon goes, we have sword, scepter and that’s it. Scepter is fantastic for shatter builds, sword is great for melee, but if you’re doing phantasms and you want a ranged one handed weapon you’re SOL.

Having a pistol main hand would be a great opportunity to round out the available options. I’d like to see it lay on vulnerability and some sort of targeted aoe, I would be one happy mesmer.

The funny thing is that clone spam works best with Melee, due to iPersona, yet the clone spam weapon is ranged

I find that stacking 3 Phantasms would work better with a ranged weapon as well.

And stop it with these nerd wars of “I don’t like your opinion, so I’ll prove to you why my personal preference is better than yours”. If people want to run 3 phantasms, let them, if someone wants to make a clone spam let them. Stop telling them how to play, and let them play how they want.

Pyroatheist.9031:

This has always been the case, and will always been the case. If you want to run a build with 3 phantasms out doing damage, I highly suggest not using mainhand scepter.

LOL this is absolutely best advise I’ve ever get. Which weapon should I use?
I have sword&sword and scepter&pistol. If no scepter I can choose only staff or greatsword. Both are dualwield, so if no scepter, no pistol, no duelist. In phantasm build very good option. :-(
The whole problem is, that there is NO OTHER weapon as appropriate substitute of scepter.
But there is no problem with scepter overal, there is a problem with override high dps phantasm with clone, which is not for dps.
In boss fight I cast 3 phantasmas and then I go for coffee becasue I have no range skill.

You could always swap your weapon to Staff and use WOC.

But that would require you to press tilde. Hmm ………………………………………………

foster.1783:

Pyroatheist.9031:

This has always been the case, and will always been the case. If you want to run a build with 3 phantasms out doing damage, I highly suggest not using mainhand scepter.

LOL this is absolutely best advise I’ve ever get. Which weapon should I use?
I have sword&sword and scepter&pistol. If no scepter I can choose only staff or greatsword. Both are dualwield, so if no scepter, no pistol, no duelist. In phantasm build very good option. :-(
The whole problem is, that there is NO OTHER weapon as appropriate substitute of scepter.
But there is no problem with scepter overal, there is a problem with override high dps phantasm with clone, which is not for dps.
In boss fight I cast 3 phantasmas and then I go for coffee becasue I have no range skill.

I suggest going sword/pistol and scepter/sword. pistol with the stun and the fact that it doesn’t autospam clones helps duelist immensely. I only suggest scepter/sword so that you still have a high dmg phantasm, and 2 blocks is quite helpful.
but yea….. we really need mainhand pistol.

Phantasms>Clones

When 3 Phantasms are out, a new clone will replace 1 phantasm and only 1, assuming the previous 2 phantasms are still alive. Phantasms always replace clones.

My suggestion; turn off 1 skill auto attack on scepter