[Mesmer] Clones not proper "copies"

[Mesmer] Clones not proper "copies"

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Posted by: Xyrm.5602

Xyrm.5602

Aside from other bugs that make clones a joke to spot (spawning with full health when the mesmer isn’t at full health, not dodging, not showing offhand weapons), I just learned they also happen to “ignore” the explorer star, making the real player incredibly easy to spot if they want to be a completionist (actually PUNISHED for playing the game more)

Can we please have clones that are actually believable copies?

  • Increase attack rate on clones to match that of the player. Lower damage/chance to apply effects to compensate if needed, but just make them LOOK the same.
  • Make ALL clones perform a dodge at the same time as the player. This would also give us some modicum of control over their survivability since they INSIST in standing in every cleave/AoE imaginable.
  • Make clones spawn with the same % of health as the player and continue to display this health; give them their own hidden health pool, since they can be one-shot by virtually anything this won’t be an issue.
  • Make clones have the EXACT same appearance as the player; title, “explorer” star, ALL weapons (not just main hand). Ideally, have them swap weapons when the player does, as well, at least for appearance sake.

EDIT: So we are clear, I’m talking specifically about CLONES, not phantasms. These serve a different purpose entirely.

My Stealthy Thief:

http://tinyurl.com/adjw3ww

(edited by Xyrm.5602)

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Posted by: The Dude.6942

The Dude.6942

i basically agree with you, but this might be the wrong forum

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Posted by: Xyrm.5602

Xyrm.5602

i basically agree with you, but this might be the wrong forum

I understand how some of these might be considered suggestions, but clones not showing “explorer stars” at the very least has to be a BUG, as well as not showing offhand weapons.

My Stealthy Thief:

http://tinyurl.com/adjw3ww

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Posted by: dagrdagaz.4913

dagrdagaz.4913

oooh, is THAT why my Mesmer char nearly always still gets targeted by all foes when having Clones. sigh

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Posted by: Hsinimod.5784

Hsinimod.5784

Clones are a distraction, and still take timing to re-target the actual Mesmer. That makes the clones basically a free block for a half second.

This doesn’t count the damage the Mesmer can do, the clones, and the shatters—the whole time the fight is occurring. Clones survive 2-4 hits. Overall, it’s still a powerful mechanic, even if the clones aren’t perfect copies.

Perfect copies would be overpowered. I think it is intentional.

Playing Devil’s Advocate since 1990.

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Posted by: Jason King.2647

Jason King.2647

Live Response Embed

Thanks for the feedback! Clones not having the explorer stars is definitely a bug, and we’ve noted it in our database. As the rest of these ideas are more along of suggestions and feedback, however, I’ll be moving it to the Mesmer profession forum.

ArenaNet Community Team
Live Response Embed

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Posted by: Bulblax.3809

Bulblax.3809

I agree that they should be exactly identical looking. Otherwise, what’s the point? The missing offhand puzzles me. Is this a bug or currently the way it’s supposed to be (would love a dev response on this)? I also had the same idea for the HP, with the hidden health pools.

I don’t agree on them dodging, as I think that might be slightly OP. One of the ways to tell if a clone is a clone is watching for human-like play.

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Posted by: RuneValkyrie.3672

RuneValkyrie.3672

I agree 100% with you Bulblax.3809 Identically looking would be the purpose of clones but dodging or other human like behavior (using healing skills or other skills even if the effect is not applied) could be unbalanced. There’s other stuff to be improved for the class than that, ex. Phantasms traits not working (Phantasmal Haste, Phantasmal Fury, Vengeful Images, Phantasmal Healing), Illusionary Elasticity not giving the extra bounce to your staff wielding clones.

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Posted by: Alynda Noqurden.7428

Alynda Noqurden.7428

Id agree with ya Bulblax but only on listed parts, kinda like RuneValk said… it would be unbalanced imo if clones did infact do all of the above… a few additions might make the class more intresting as well along with help clones do their job. Overall i would def agree with clones needing a hidden health pool, simply cause anyone that knows how to fight a mesmer will just do a minor AoE when they lose us in clones and target the one that either didnt go pop or took the lowest ammount of damage.

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Posted by: wintermute.4096

wintermute.4096

Most notably: does ctrl+T still work on a mesmer? As in, being a called target puts a mark in your head that clearly distinguishes you from your clones?

Also, afaik, the real mesmer always has that little arrow over his head when in downed state, the clone does not.

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Posted by: Carighan.6758

Carighan.6758

Next to that, could you also look into Clones of DWing Mesmers not displaying offhand weapons?

The strength of heart to face oneself has been made manifest. The persona Carighan has appeared.

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Posted by: Embolism.8106

Embolism.8106

I agree with making Clones completely visually identical to the Mesmer (they aren’t really Clones otherwise), and I would be partial to increasing their attack rate to normal (although that could cause balance issues with Staff Clones, Sword Clones and Sharper Images); but I really don’t think we need all the other stuff. IMO Clone deception should be partly active (you should try to break LoS, act like a Clone, etc.), you shouldn’t expect game mechanics to do all the work for you.

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Posted by: Strill.2591

Strill.2591

It saddens me that we actually have to ask for this. What’s the point of having them be clones in the first place if they’re not going to follow through on the mechanic? Just abandon it and go with generic minions if you’re not going to go all the way.

Thanks for the feedback! Clones not having the explorer stars is definitely a bug, and we’ve noted it in our database. As the rest of these ideas are more along of suggestions and feedback, however, I’ll be moving it to the Mesmer profession forum.

So clones not having offhand weapons isn’t a bug!?

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Posted by: Marxo.3829

Marxo.3829

I am very happy to hear that the explorer’s star will be fixed at some point.

I can sympathize with wanting offhands to show on clones too. I’d like to partake in skin hunting / legendary hunting for offhands someday but it seems that part if the game is not wise for mesmers to pursue.

As a result I pretty much just go for the least shiny offhands as possible as to not to be a detrement to my PvP survival.

The rest of the OP’s suggestions are asking a little too much though, clones are supposed to make people look twice, not be impossible to tell apart.

(edited by Marxo.3829)

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Posted by: Chumsy.5714

Chumsy.5714

a easy way to do this just make the clones copy your actions, every single one except when you shatter they move to the target. For example if you cast a skill, make the clones do the exact same casting motion, except they dont actually cast anything. I rather have that than the next to nothing dmg they do.

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Posted by: AndrewSX.3794

AndrewSX.3794

The best thing about the clone problems of fooling is that actually there IS one single clone that is perfect copy.

The downed one.

Everybody always rez him, instead of me, lol

Seafarer’s Rest EU – PvE/WvW – 8 × 80 chars.
Most used: Guard/Mes/War/Nec/Ele.
Yes, i use 5 chars at time. Because REASONS.

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Posted by: aphoxi.4378

aphoxi.4378

I would classify the concept of clones mimicking player movement as suggestions. Anything related to the appearance of the clone really to me is a bug. It may not be a bug the way developers think it, but at the very least it’s not working as intended or working as described.

Also, clones taking 3 or 4 hits? From what? The mosquito in Lion’s Arch? If I use mirror images and then roll to generate a clone with deceptive evasion, anyone/anything with an AE will have destroyed them before my finger can reach the F1 button.

As for the clones doing whatever the mesmer does, I’d say be careful what you wish for on that. It’s simultaneously a blessing and a curse that the illusions are target based and somewhat independent because it permits us to drop back and get lost in the confusion or switch targets – especially useful against other mesmers when the illusions will stay on the PC and not the clones.

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Posted by: DOW Mageski.2097

DOW Mageski.2097

I am new to being a mesmer however I would also like to see clones get more health or have to take a standard amount of hits before disappearing.
The way I see it is, Phantoms do the damage. They are a lot slower to summon and you generally get less of them out in a fight.
Then you have clones, which one main purpose and that is for enemies to mistake them for you. If they have more health so they can take more damage this purpose becomes more effective. Another idea is to have them take about 3 hits before they die.

I know you can shatter clones and phantoms, however I generally want to keep them up so they help me. I only shatter them when I am bringing out more or it is the end of the fight.

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Posted by: Ziggy.7319

Ziggy.7319

I agree.
Aside from the obvious with how the health pool looks and the weapons…..

i have some other things to add:

-They only auto cast the auto attack and at their own pace, if you cast anything else or stop for a second, then it’s obvious. They should only attack when you attack, and if you use another skill, they should perform the same animation to make it look like they’re casting it as well.

-They don’t move. Make them be able to move around a bit like a player. this might be hard or almost impossible to make, but if possible, it’d be nice.

-Saw a friend dueling a mesmer, every time he fights a mesmer he instantly just places a target over them. the only way to get rid of the target is stealth. However, if you summon a clone(s) then they should have a target too, or it should clear it.

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Posted by: Solesaver.8764

Solesaver.8764

I’ve mentioned this before but got little traction. I don’t mind the clones behaving stupidly, there should be tells. But it should at least be possible for you to put effort into mimicking your clones. The explorer star and offhand weapons are major problems for this. Additionally, it is impossible to behave the same as the scepter clones because they repeatedly auto-attack with the first of a 3 hit combo before your combo resets. It is impossible to match their behavior…

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Posted by: Kelesti.2458

Kelesti.2458

The scepter clones also spawn in melee range, instead of on you. I don’t think the chain is the first thing that needs to be fixed with them…

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Posted by: RuneValkyrie.3672

RuneValkyrie.3672

The scepter clones also spawn in melee range, instead of on you. I don’t think the chain is the first thing that needs to be fixed with them…

I agree, the Mesmer’s scepter weapon (chain skill slot 1) needs to be fixed all the way around. It takes for ever to spawn a useless clone. And what I mean by useless… Im referring to a scepter wielding clone that spams only the first attack of the chain for no damage or confusion (or any other condition or boon), it has a range attack and yet spawns in front of the enemy. So not only the scepter clone does absolutely nothing but your 3 attacks it takes to spawn a clone are super slow as well. There are other better options (Deceptive Evasion) to create clones that actually do something other than using them for shatter. The Mesmer’s scepter needs some serious attention by the developers.

(edited by RuneValkyrie.3672)

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Posted by: Levetty.1279

Levetty.1279

The scepter clones also spawn in melee range, instead of on you. I don’t think the chain is the first thing that needs to be fixed with them…

That is literally the only useful thing about the auto attack. The auto attack and/or weapon need to be reworked before that changes.

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Posted by: Culpa.2546

Culpa.2546

These ideas would help so freaking much. EVERYONE knows exactly which one I really am every single time, and it’s getting a little old when I’m not playing with a group.

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Posted by: Ghotistyx.6942

Ghotistyx.6942

I think instead of having the clones copy you exactly, doing skills when you do, dodging when you do etc, clone should act more/less like the Mesmer (punching bag) in the Mists. Using their own weapons, doing their own animations, completely independant of you, but made to look more “human-like”. Their actual effects could happen at their normal recharge rates, and just made to happen w/in something like 5sec from spawning.

Clones like that would have a better feel imho.

Fishsticks

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Posted by: RuneValkyrie.3672

RuneValkyrie.3672

The way the auto-attack (clones applying confusion) was fine before. It was only for WvW and PvP specifically that was broken OP so that’s what they should have addressed by then not make it completely useless for PvE…. other classes have way much more things going on for then on PvE than the mesmer scepter wielding clones stacking confusion on some AI MOBS that attacks you every 3 to for seconds and by the time they attack you for a second time your effort to apply 9+ stacks of confusions are gone in 5s completely non OP for PvE yet remaining a fun and enjoyable build. All they need it to do was make the clones confuse opponents for 2s only or make the clones do half of your auto-attack damage so the scepter clones can have something unique to them just like the rest of the other clones wielding different types of weapons. Remember you don’t balance a profession based only from a PvP view not everyone plays PvP that’s a total different structure and yet they could have made confusion last 50% less on PvP to fix the problem instead of making scepter useless…. when it was a very nice confusion-friendly weapon build option and non OP in PvE it was very normal, some mobs would not even get hit by a 9+ stack of confusion even lasting 7s on them and you know how hard its to apply a high stack of confusion without the help of other players.

(edited by RuneValkyrie.3672)

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Posted by: Vigilence.4902

Vigilence.4902

The best thing about the clone problems of fooling is that actually there IS one single clone that is perfect copy.

The downed one.

Everybody always rez him, instead of me, lol

Oh boy, that happens to me a lot. I always rez the clone, makes me mad I wasted my time.

Anet could put a simple and fast fix to not allow clones to be revivable.

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Posted by: TheCelt.1394

TheCelt.1394

Aside from other bugs that make clones a joke to spot (spawning with full health when the mesmer isn’t at full health, not dodging, not showing offhand weapons), I just learned they also happen to “ignore” the explorer star, making the real player incredibly easy to spot if they want to be a completionist (actually PUNISHED for playing the game more)

Can we please have clones that are actually believable copies?

  • Increase attack rate on clones to match that of the player. Lower damage/chance to apply effects to compensate if needed, but just make them LOOK the same.
  • Make ALL clones perform a dodge at the same time as the player. This would also give us some modicum of control over their survivability since they INSIST in standing in every cleave/AoE imaginable.
  • Make clones spawn with the same % of health as the player and continue to display this health; give them their own hidden health pool, since they can be one-shot by virtually anything this won’t be an issue.
  • Make clones have the EXACT same appearance as the player; title, “explorer” star, ALL weapons (not just main hand). Ideally, have them swap weapons when the player does, as well, at least for appearance sake.

EDIT: So we are clear, I’m talking specifically about CLONES, not phantasms. These serve a different purpose entirely.

Because Mesmers need all the help they can get, amirite?

“It is impossible to defeat an ignorant man in argument”. -William G. McAdoo

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Posted by: zeoli.3250

zeoli.3250

Tbh, the two tell tale signs i use to tell which is the real mesmer are

Health: clones spawn with full health. l while the real mesmer has a health deficit.
Fix: have clones spawn with their max health but this is displayed as the same as the mesmer. In other words, mesmer is at 50% hp, clone spawns with 5k hp (or whatever the max health they spawn with) but their total health is 5000*1.5 (the .5 is the mesmers health deficit in , so a mesmer at 25 health the formula would read 5000*1.75) this would allow clones to spawn with the correct amount of health while showing the same deficit as the real mesmer. This should be ok as clones cannot be healed iirc.

Boons and conditions. This is so obvious. Simple solution is to spawn clones with the boon and condition icons but it isn’t the most effective but will do.

The reason for these suggestions is that the game is ment to be played, not the UI, implementing these changes would allow the mesmer to skillfully play owing to the fact that if the mesmer messes up, the other players know which is real, currently it stands that no matter what the mesmer does, anyone with a fast eye will see that the real mesmer has conditions and a health deficit.

Under these changes the enemy will have to look for tiny changes in behaviour, or ensure that the mesmer has a dot on them and follow the dmg or even as little as to running away and looking for the mesmer with the limp seeing as the real mesmer will be affected by the conditions on them while clones will not.

(edited by zeoli.3250)

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Posted by: Carighan.6758

Carighan.6758

Because Mesmers need all the help they can get, amirite?

Actually we do.
We are currently extremely frail, and we also have comparatively low damage output.

That is…
We also have a handful of really powerful – actually way overpowered – abilities. However, these are currently everything we have, so they actually appear a lot less overpowered to anyone else than they really are (since we’re not contributing anything besides them, really).

In other words, we need “perfect” clones. If you don’t want my PvP defence to keep being all about the insanely strong Feedback and the rage-inducing Moa Morph, then I need some other form of defence, sorry.

The strength of heart to face oneself has been made manifest. The persona Carighan has appeared.

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Posted by: Novalitus.7382

Novalitus.7382

I could not agree more! Clones should look like GOOD clones and visually be indentical to the mesmer. They could move a bit around, whilst performing the auto-attack. I dont think they should have increased health, as clones are only there to confused the enemies. But their healthbar should match the healthbar of the mesmer!

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Posted by: Nuka Cola.8520

Nuka Cola.8520

Another thing most seems to forget. When you create clones they do not have all the sigs under their health bar (or any skill that shows under skill bar) so its extremely easy to distinguish a real person and a clone. If its that easy, what’s the point of even having them the exact copy of you? Just make them transparent like all the phantasms and it won’t make any differences.

Fact: every Thief tells you to “l2p” when the subject is to nerf stealth.

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Posted by: zeoli.3250

zeoli.3250

Another thing most seems to forget. When you create clones they do not have all the sigs under their health bar (or any skill that shows under skill bar) so its extremely easy to distinguish a real person and a clone. If its that easy, what’s the point of even having them the exact copy of you? Just make them transparent like all the phantasms and it won’t make any differences.

This is what i outline in my post 3 posts up from yours

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Posted by: MiniPrinny.9105

MiniPrinny.9105

Another suggestion, not sure if it’s been listed or not (it’s late and I really just can’t seem to motivate myself to check for it), is to have the clones mimic every attack/action you do. I realize this may be beyond what the system is capable of, but it’d be nice, and for some things it’d help with AoE. Instead of having one Mirror Blade, there are now four. Of course, the clone ones could be stripped of some of the more potent effects of some abilities, but it’d help. Especially for AoE on builds based around Sharper Images.

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Posted by: Chaos.7802

Chaos.7802

These are good suggestions, i personally feel the mesmer class needs some work on the clone regard and feel that we also lose alot in regards to playstyle/balance with our shatter mechanic

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Posted by: TheRamosOnline.2670

TheRamosOnline.2670

Call me crazy, but I want my clones to move with me. Not necessaries in the same direction I move in, but when I move around the clones should also move around in their own direction. Against idiots I can stand still while they get confused at which Clone is the real Mesmer, but in fights where i need to move around a lot my clones die to AoE’s in a single hit and they dont even make any attempt to move.

I just feel like the clones are there to confuse the stupid players and serve no real purpose outside shatters.

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Posted by: Rojaha.4082

Rojaha.4082

I agree that at the very least, clones should mimic offhand, healthbar, and titles. They don’t do any DPS, nor any intelligent movement. The whole point of clones is to look like you and fool other players. If they don’t even look like you, what’s the point?

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Posted by: Swedemon.4670

Swedemon.4670

OP – Although this will help the star would still be a disadvantage. You can see the star on an enemy that is standing behind a nearby structure. A huge disadvantage in many scenarios as you can no longer hide safely.

They also need to fix that.

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Posted by: Xavi.6591

Xavi.6591

It’s still not fixed.

Fantasme Bloodwen [R.I.P. Mesmer] | Andi Runi [Warrior] | Bonedoggle [Necro] | Zooerasty [Ranger]
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Posted by: EsLafiel.4517

EsLafiel.4517

About the clones offhand, why not get a offhand weapon that is almost impossible to see.

I got the flux one, since I use a focus. I doubt anyone can see it on me in combat.

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Posted by: Pavlov.3710

Pavlov.3710

About the clones offhand, why not get a offhand weapon that is almost impossible to see.

I got the flux one, since I use a focus. I doubt anyone can see it on me in combat.

Well of course you can do that, but that’s only a band-aid, it doesn’t address the real problem that clones could be a lot more clone-like.

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Posted by: Forgotten Tears.8627

Forgotten Tears.8627

Did they fix the star in clones at least?

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Posted by: Pavlov.3710

Pavlov.3710

Pretty sure they didn’t.

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Posted by: papaganoosh.7908

papaganoosh.7908

They didn’t fix it. And they made them naked in TPvP…

Papaganoosh (SPvP Officer, The Unnamed EU)

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Posted by: Aneirin Cadwall.9126

Aneirin Cadwall.9126

We also have a handful of really powerful – actually way overpowered – abilities.

Mind telling me which abilities these are?

The only professions I’ve played that aren’t more direct-damage-capable than my mesmer are ranger and necromancer. The most I can hope for on mesmer from a single skill in a set of full exotic “berserker” armor and accessories is about 5-7k — boons from allies not withstanding.

Men who achieve some power desire more until they destroy themselves trying to get it.—Turai Ossa
Sanctum of Rall since beta 3. Mesmer since 1070 AE

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Posted by: TheComet.6471

TheComet.6471

having clones dodge when the player does could be an interesting grandmaster trait now that I read and think about it

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Posted by: EsLafiel.4517

EsLafiel.4517

About the clones offhand, why not get a offhand weapon that is almost impossible to see.

I got the flux one, since I use a focus. I doubt anyone can see it on me in combat.

Well of course you can do that, but that’s only a band-aid, it doesn’t address the real problem that clones could be a lot more clone-like.

Never said it fix it, I said what you could do for right now.

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Posted by: SteepledHat.1345

SteepledHat.1345

We’ve never been high priority for them. Too many warrior bugs and buffs to work on. It’s not like the star/food buffs/potion buffs/unmanned buff completely undermines the mesmer’s core mechanic…. oh wait.

“Failure to remain calm is the sign of a weak mind.”