Mesmer-Design Problems[PvP]

Mesmer-Design Problems[PvP]

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Posted by: Stievie.6128

Stievie.6128

So with the upcoming DE changes alot of turmoil has started on the forums, for good reasons. The mesmer in itself is a design catastrophe at this point for multiple reasons. Mainly because of our class ability Shatter not interacting with all builds the way it should. We have exactly 1 valid pvp build that makes “real” use of shattering multiple times in a drawn out fights, the other builds (Phantasm/Pu/Clonedeath) are more hurt by shatters than what they get out of it.

This is a big problem concerning longterm design changes. Because we have a very narrow use for our class ability across all builds. A phantasm build is essentially a build that doesnt make use of its class ability(aside from distortion), that would be the same as designing thiefs around not using steal, warriors not using burst skills or necros not using death shroud. See how silly that sounds? But the reality is that we are essentially designed that way in every build that isnt centered around shattering.

I understand that decision making should be involved in all builds, but at the moment shatterign 3 phantasms for example will always be a decision you wont make for offensive purpouses (Mindwrack, Diversion, Cry of Frustration) in phantasm builds.

The same is true for clonedeath/condi builds, when having clone death traits equipped shattering illusions results in less damage than the enemy actually killing them, again bad design. The passive function of abilities should never outweight those of active ones with lenghty cooldowns that involve a high risk , like shatters.

Heres a small list of traits that advertise to basicly ignore shatters:

Empowered Illusions
Crippling Dissipation
Sharper Images
Debilitating Dissipation
Phantasmal Strenght
Compounding Power
Phantasmal Haste

On the other end of the spectrum we have a ton of traits that only take effect when we actually shatter, standing in a huge contrast to those other traits, ontop of it most of those share the same lines as traits that advertise shattering. This leads to the state we are in now, basicly you either shatter or you dont shatter, there is almost nothing in between.
Something needs to be done here, traits that buff Phantasms and Shatters should be split into different trait lines and made easier accessable to increase build vaerity.
For example shatter bunkers could be a thing but get completely hindered by trait placement.

As a shatter mesmer you NEED Deceptive Evasion and you NEED Illusionary Persona, theres no way around that, leaving you with 20 points to spend in other builds.
If we take a look at the current most used pvp build for shatter we are gonna end up with the 20/20/0/0/30 build. Now why is this one so effective? Because you can grap 2 major traits in the Domination line that hugely improve the build. Inspiration has some very strong traits for shatter builds, but they are placed to far down the line. Restorative Illusions and Shattered Conditions would be both exceptional tools for shatter mesmers but they are both grandmaster traits, leading back to the problem of relyance on Illusionary Persona and Deceptive Evasion.

Now there are 2 solutions concerning this particular problem, either move those traits in a way that they are accesable by builds that run DE and IP or , and im going to get alot of hate for this, make Deceptive Evasion a baseline ability.

Now this sounds insane I know, but just think about it for a second. There is a reason why every build thats used in PvP uses Deceptive Evasion, its not because the trait is overpowered by itself, it is because every build using shatters is basicly designed around Deceptive Evasion at this point. And this is what hinders the Mesmer class and build diversity the most.

Shatter Mesmers NEED the clone generation , otherwise Shatters wouldnt do sufficient damage in their current state, the same is true for mesmers who want to utilizy more defensive shatter traits, without DE chaining shatters is naught impossible because you would be bound to cooldowns from weapon skill that produce clones and shatters, making the whole concept more and more difficult to pull off.

Of course that would mean that all other damage values and abilities like clone death would need to be readjusted accordingly , but in the long run and for the sake of a class that should actually be able to utilize their class ability at all times and across all builds it is the only option to realy fix the mesmers.

Ontop of that we finally need a good reason to actually shatter phantasms.
Move all the phantasm traits to trait lines that fit them more, add traits that give added damage if you shatter phantasms for example, this could be a grand master trait.

I could go on but I´d like to hear what the Mesmer community and Anet thinks about this. This issue has been here since release and never realy got adressed, if at all it got worse.

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Posted by: Sesundar.3501

Sesundar.3501

Nerf the bleeds on Debilitating Dissipation

Move Sharper Images (clones bleed on crit) into trait line and replace it with DE.

DE will be what it will be. (I assume clone will be able to die when using clone generation skills, i.e GS #2).

Buff Illusionary Retribution (shatters inflict confusion) by applying 2 stacks.

Buff Confusing Combatants (clone’s death applies confusion) by applying 2 stacks.

My 2 cents!

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Posted by: Stievie.6128

Stievie.6128

Nerf the bleeds on Debilitating Dissipation

Move Sharper Images (clones bleed on crit) into trait line and replace it with DE.

DE will be what it will be. (I assume clone will be able to die when using clone generation skills, i.e GS #2).

Buff Illusionary Retribution (shatters inflict confusion) by applying 2 stacks.

Buff Confusing Combatants (clone’s death applies confusion) by applying 2 stacks.

My 2 cents!

I would be okay with illusionary retribution since it would advertise using shatters over letting blones die traited with confusing combatants, but i dont think clone death traits should be buffed, rather make it worth shattering illusions over letting them die.

A main tool for this could be giving some sort of added condition function to cry of frustration via a trait located into chaos as an option for more condi heavy shatter builds.

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Posted by: Coulter.2315

Coulter.2315

I have been told by someone that the Deceptive Evasion change will count clones differently than the current system.

At the moment if I have 3 clones and Shatter they all run to target but I can spawn new clones before they reach their destination. I have been told that the changed Deceptive Evasion will not spawn new clones in this situation because it counts the circle indicators and does not use the current system of not counting clones sent to shatter regardless of the circle indicator count.

Please you must go back and look at this coding again and make it work as the old system did, this will really badly effect Shatter mesmers especially those who use Staff/GS as all their clones/phants tend to keep themselves at range to the target. If this change goes through without being looked at it will suverely damage the 1 Mesmer build which has a bit of honour to it – you said yourselves you wanted to stop the cheesey stuff.

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Posted by: shimmerless.4560

shimmerless.4560

Phants granting extra damage on shatter didn’t even need to be a trait, it should’ve been an inherent mechanic from the start. Sadly damage and power creep is too high in the game now for any such change to take place.

Great thoughts though OP

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Posted by: pinkbunnies.4620

pinkbunnies.4620

So with the upcoming DE changes alot of turmoil has started on the forums, for good reasons. The mesmer in itself is a design catastrophe at this point for multiple reasons. Mainly because of our class ability Shatter not interacting with all builds the way it should…. …I could go on but I´d like to hear what the Mesmer community and Anet thinks about this. This issue has been here since release and never realy got adressed, if at all it got worse.

I completely agree with this.

Shattering needs to be what builds revolve around, both offensive and defensive.

Defensive tanky builds could generate buffs from shatters and Damage builds could get spike while condition builds could get applications on shatters. mix and match for hybrids with the really good stuff high in the trees.

I agree that create clone on dodge should be either free or easy to get without wasting a trait choice.

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Posted by: Jorjeis.2169

Jorjeis.2169

The other issue is that any sort of shattering at all depends on having illusions that can make it to their target and proc the shatter effect without dieing. This just doesn’t happen in WvW raids so if you were to really look at this you’d need some mechanic that allowed us to get shatters off without depending on a 30 point trait (IP).

Member of [KnT] – Blackgate

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Posted by: Stievie.6128

Stievie.6128

Now some brainstorming from my side:

Inspiration GM trait- Shattered Phantasms deal 30% extra damage on Mindwrack

Deep investment for phantasm builds, would draw some points out of other lines that would otherwise buff Illusion dmg (sustain vs burst)

Illusions GM trait- Shattered Clones become invulnurable until they reach their destination

Could still be dodged and be highly telegraphed, maybe add a sparkle animation?
Would fight for the same spot as Illusionary persona , so you cant get both. Wouldnt see much use in sPvP but would improve WvW shattering alot in mid-to zergscale scenarios

Chaos GM trait- Cry of Frustration causes random Conditions (torment, bleed, burning) based on how many clones got shattered:
1 clone: 2 stacks of bleeding for 4 seconds
2 clones: 2 stacks of bleeding for 4 seconds 1 stack of torment for 7 seconds (per clone)
3 clones: 2 stacks of bleeding for 4 seconds 1 stack of torment for 7 seconds 1 second burning (per clone)

again this would fight with the same slot as prismatic understanding, opening up options for condition builds and give a reasonable condition burst over extra defense.

those arent exact values ofc, just some things ontop of my head

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Posted by: Proven.2854

Proven.2854

I disagree with only one point from the original post. There are builds for all classes designed to ignore some major part of their profession mechanics except for within dire circumstances. Many of them aren’t very viable, but they exist and have trait support.

But the major thing I agree with you is that Mesmer doesn’t have enough base support for their mechanic. And the primary issue is clone generation.

My own solution would be to have clones generated from auto-attack chains on all Mesmer weapons, like Scepter currently does. From there, all special clone generation skills like ILeap, Mirror Blade, etc. would either have their bonus effect bumped up or create a Phantasm instead.

From there, Phantasm and and Clone-on-Death traits would have be nerfed somewhat or pushed further up their trait lines.

Clones from auto-attacks is the only other thing I can think of to keep clone generation high while getting reliance off of Deceptive Evasion.

Call me Smith.

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Posted by: Carighan.6758

Carighan.6758

I think part of the problem of shatter ultimately comes down to our lack of reliance on clones. Yes, I said that. Sec, need to explain that I think. :P

Problem really is, for Shatter to be a defining class mechanic the way stances are on Eles, Tool belt on Engis and so on, it’d need to be strong. Right now, it provides some AE (not even all that much, it’s a good spike though), some interrupt and a very useful defensive move.
But, all together this is fairly “meh”. As evident by the fact that no Phantasms Mesmer would ever shatter his 3 Phantasms apart from an absolutely-last-ditch-effort with Distortion.

Problem 1: Shatter isn’t strong enough to warrant shattering 3 Phantasms. This shouldn’t happen. In fact, some builds work better by letting the clones die than shattering them.
Possible solutions:

  • Nerfing Phantasms
  • Buffing Shatter
  • De-coupling Phantasms from Shatter
  • De-coupling Shatter from clones entirely (weird)

I didn’t judge the above, just thought of what possible – however stupid – scenarios I can think of.

Next in line, assuming that Shatter would be powerful and wanted, is the problem that if that were true, wouldn’t we just shatter constantly? Yes we would. Clones by themselves are rather cheap. Not that they’re easy to produce – DE excepted – but they provide very little cover outside of PvE and their offensive power is restricted to two weapons. Which is also weird, you’d think either clones are useful attackers or not, not “sometimes”.

Problem 2: Clones aren’t powerful enough to make a powerful Shatter possible. It needs to be kept in check.
Possible Solutions:

  • Buff clone offence.
  • Buff clone defence (how?).
  • A combination.
  • Disallow clone generation for a while after a shatter.

Now , at this point we’d have very powerful clones, and we are getting close to identifying all parties which need change. If clones were so powerful that they could keep a powerful shatter in check (and I’m assuming that we’ve been made reliant on this whole balance somehow), then no one would ever use Phantasms. What’s the point, Clones are stronger.

Problem 3: Phantasms, too strong to make us shatter, would be too weak against rebalanced clones. They only block Shatter, after all – the rest still works.
Possible solutions:

  • Buff Phantasms (tricky, see 1)
  • Nerf Clones (tricky, see 2)
  • Change Phantasm intended usage (possible, but rather problematic in how wide-reaching consequences this’d have).

My personal solution to the whole problem, though requiring extensive but luckily mostly numeric rework, would be this:

  1. Make Shatter powerful. F1 should be my main offence, F2 my main condition, F3 my main disabler and F4 my main defence. Make me choose, force me to shatter to achieve anything which is “now”.
  2. Make Clones much more powerful than they are. Full HP, use abilities (don’t do anything, they just spawn the graphics), they dodge, they run around, everything. Full copy of buffs/debuffs, too. OTOH, no more damage/conditions through clones at all.
  3. Make Phantasms have virtually no inter-attack delay, but rebalance their damage and extra effects. Phantasms would provide a steady damage output, wherekittenter is stronger and a burst, but eats everything.
The strength of heart to face oneself has been made manifest. The persona Carighan has appeared.

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Posted by: Stievie.6128

Stievie.6128

I dont think phantasms need any buff in their current state
I also think clones are fine as they are now, they could use shifting their condi application from a passive state onto more active skills (shatters) as stated in my previous post.

the biggest problem for shatter , in its current state and among all classes , while the spike damage it provides is reasonable, it allready takes a huge amount of coordination to pull off the spikes compared to skills like eviscerate/backstab/pistolwhip. Without sufficient clone generation this build would be dead the moment deceptive evasion got removed.

Thats why deceptive should be baseline, so you can actually start working builds around it. because as it stands , phantasm aside, not a single build realy works without DE.

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Posted by: Proven.2854

Proven.2854

It doesn’t have to be Deceptive Evasion. Mesmers just need more clone generation in general as a baseline and there are many ways to achieve this. Otherwise there needs to be one or two other traits that can produce clones at the rate of Deceptive Evasion.

Call me Smith.

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Posted by: Mogar.9216

Mogar.9216

I play a phantasm build and I shatter all the time. I play a power build and I time my bursts. The max effect of a burst is shatter your phantasms right after they attack. I can pump out new ones pretty fast after the shatter for another round of burst.

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Posted by: Qaelyn.7612

Qaelyn.7612

I think you have good intentions, Stievie, but aren’t taking into account the fact that some people simply don’t enjoy the shatter mechanic. I’m one of them. For me, shatter takes away entirely from the things that attracted me to the class when I signed up for GW2, which is the idea of a trickster/illusionist mage. It makes mesmer into just another “throw things at the bad guy so they do damage when they blow up” class.

If they tweak this class to the point where you have to shatter constantly to be effective on any build, I probably will mothball my mesmer permanently.

And BTW, I think you’re conflating “profession mechanic” with “profession skill”. And there are other professions also where there are builds that use the profession skills only incidentally.

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Posted by: shimmerless.4560

shimmerless.4560

And BTW, I think you’re conflating “profession mechanic” with “profession skill”. And there are other professions also where there are builds that use the profession skills only incidentally.

From the official site:

GW2 Wiki

Shattering is the primary profession mechanic of the mesmer profession [….]

— Bliss

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Posted by: Qaelyn.7612

Qaelyn.7612

The description of the mesmer on that same wiki starts out with a quote from the game: "When I’m done with you, you won’t trust your own mind. "

And then begins: “Mesmers are masters of mirage. They weave mental magic that confounds, controls, or evokes emotion in their enemies. With a wave of the hand, they can shatter their own illusions to produce even greater special effects.”

I want to “weave mental magic that confounds, controls, or evokes emotion”. Not make “things that go boom” that might as well be my engineer’s grenades except that they look a bit like me. Others like that style, great; I don’t.

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Posted by: shimmerless.4560

shimmerless.4560

The second quote you gave is telling because it explains how one can shatter illusions after using them to disorient foes. This is part of the natural push and pull of the Mesmer class. Likewise a world that had no shatters would be one with less options than we currently have (it is quite possible to confuse opponents with the Illusions traitline).

— Bliss

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Posted by: Qaelyn.7612

Qaelyn.7612

I’m not asking for shatter builds to be removed. I’m asking for non-shatter builds to be not-removed.

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Posted by: Dekk.3459

Dekk.3459

@Carighan

It has been suggested before that phantasms shattered should have increased strength. More damage, add another stack, longer duration when shattering phantasms… That seems like the easiest solution to me.

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Posted by: Carighan.6758

Carighan.6758

I don’t think just solving Phantasm shatter would do much. Especially not in light of being able to spawn 3 Phantasms ~right away now with the new heal.

Rather, Shatter itself is too weak. But it can’t be made stronger in the current Mesmer design state. As a result, I think the goal is to increase reliance on Shatter, and by extend, Clones and Phantasms indirectly. They need to somehow offer defence and reliability, and those you give up when you Shatter. In turn, that shatter blows stuff up.

The strength of heart to face oneself has been made manifest. The persona Carighan has appeared.