Guild Wars 2

No. I think they should add a longer duration (say, 5 seconds) torment to the first attack in the chain, and leave the second attack without a condition. That way, clones will stack the torment, but not excessively so.

Another thing they could do is to change Scepter 2 to NOT apply conditions, increase the block duration to be similar to the old Mimic (say 1-2 seconds of blocking all attacks), and decrease channel time on Scepter 3 in order to provide a more reliable application of Confusion/conditions, while moving torment onto the first attack in Scepter 1 chain (while slightly increasing attack speed or damage). I think that would make the scepter a lot more viable, versatile, and useful outside of just PvP.

No. Some random letters.

Yes.

It’s putting scepter on par with other professions and their auto condition attacks.

I don’t really like the two options provided in this thread since they are extremly hyperbolic and at least one doesn’t hold true from my point of view. But I assume those statements are meant to polarize. I’ll go with it because it is Chaos who is asking.

First of all, I don’t really like the change. The Scepter AA – or the even the whole weapon in general – needs a change. Right now, the AA is a dead skill and an improvement is desperately needed. Adding a condition isn’t what I was expecting after the briefing of it being a tricksy defender. I don’t think it is the optimal solution. I don’t think it will offer a lot of build diversity if any at all. However, I’ll still say…

YES!

YES, because if a condition was added Torment is the most reasonable choice.
YES, because Torment won’t make it any more ‘brainless’ than it already is.
YES, because the AA will still be one of the weakest condi AAs available.
YES, because Staff clones aren’t a thing but will outperform Scepter clones anyway.
YES, because this is a buff for condi Mesmers in general.
YES, because it is no PU buff since AAs can’t be utilized while stealthed.
YES, because the ‘But Helseth said…’ annoys the hell out of me.
YES, because unjustified whining is unjustified.

Does each YES count?

Yes. I think in practical play keeping up 3 scepter clones without dodging, blocking stealthing and other active play will be pretty tough.

That said they should probably remove the extra second of stealth from PU to help keep that spec in check. It has been too strong for a while now.

No. Adding torment to the scepter auto attack would create a spec that requires little to no skill that can easily 1v1 any class. Even managing your cooldowns would not be necessary since a majority of you damage would be on your autoattack, even clones can be spawned using the autoattack. My fear is the new pvp Mesmer meta will be a build with a bunch of passive defensive abilities and will require no skill.

I feel that the scepter does need a buff however and to make the scepter less overpowered the torment should only be added to the final strike in the autoattack chain.

No, I think the condition mesmer will be in a too great spot with this buff. If there were torment added to its autoattack it should either be on the very last cast or when attacking from behind or something similar to that.

Windwalker.7421:

Fay.2357:

Lily.1935:

So I ended up doing the calculations and the Scepter AA is out classed most of the time by the Staff’s auto.

Assuming that you have 3 of either clone using the scepter or staff, the staff’s damage output, although less consistent then the scepter does more damage on average. Scepter being 996 while the foe is moving with the trait Malicious sorcery. The Staff averaged 1381. Now this is taking into consideration only the duration of the conditions applied for 1 single attack from each of the clones. The staff does have a 26%(rounded up) chance to be lower then the scepter AA.

My calculations do not account for all factors but I would hope it at least gives you an idea.

We can throw a couple more factors in too. Hard to slap numbers to them, but it can show which way the results skew.

Scepter clones use a slow-moving, non-homing bolt. This means that they’re very prone to missing if used on a moving target. Winds of Chaos from staff clones home, giving them a very high success rate for actually landing the attacks.

Torment only ticks at maximum strength on a moving target. Targets won’t be moving continually, and so that will lower the total damage by some amount.

Lastly, malicious sorcery will be taken incredibly rarely, simply due to trait constraints, so that lowers the numbers even more.

More factors are the buffs from Staff & Clones that will also increase damage and crit chance.

I agree with you in principle Pyro, but I’m not of the opinion that ANet is going to immediately make time to change the Scepter based on our feedback. Most likely they would put it on the back burner for another 1-2 years, and that’s far worse then what this patch will give us. Obviously this will not be OPd, the numbers prove it, it will slightly help out a highly situational non-group friendly build that people love to hate on, but at the same time I do believe it will make other builds more viable and popular.

Straight Condie builds, non-PU, are not commonly seen right now. No wonder, you’ve so far been pigeonholed into either using a terrible MH as your secondary weapons set, or a clearly Power oriented 1h or 2h weapon. Furthermore, spawning Clones by dodging, AA, or #2 while holding a Scepter literally meant screwing yourself over.

Along with the IE fix, making Scepter slightly less broken by providing a unique Condition you can’t get off Staff is while not genius design, sufficient to make the Scepter worth using in condition oriented builds.

I do think we will see some more Mesmer build diversity after this patch.

agree…..balance changes occur every 6 months in the best case scenario…..and the changes are the farthest thing from “sweeping” and/or “voluminous”…….and then you are talking about the mesmer class, where bug fixes are actually advertised as “balancing”.

to assume no change now will make far a better change in a subsequent patch is wishful thinking.

for me it’s a no. Condition mesmers are very strong, especially when traited with PU. you just condi bomb and let them struggle to clear, and condi bomb them again. They kill themselves just trying to kite you by running away.

If anything needs a buff, it’s shatter.

The auto is still worse (or at least not better) than power autoattack with a tried and true power weapon, so I don’t really feel like it’s OP like that or wrong (though i’m all for weakening AA across the board).

However, PU might be too strong, but that is more a problem with PU than with scepter.

StickerHappy.8052:

Fay.2357:

Lily.1935:

So I ended up doing the calculations and the Scepter AA is out classed most of the time by the Staff’s auto.

Assuming that you have 3 of either clone using the scepter or staff, the staff’s damage output, although less consistent then the scepter does more damage on average. Scepter being 996 while the foe is moving with the trait Malicious sorcery. The Staff averaged 1381. Now this is taking into consideration only the duration of the conditions applied for 1 single attack from each of the clones. The staff does have a 26%(rounded up) chance to be lower then the scepter AA.

My calculations do not account for all factors but I would hope it at least gives you an idea.

We can throw a couple more factors in too. Hard to slap numbers to them, but it can show which way the results skew.

Scepter clones use a slow-moving, non-homing bolt. This means that they’re very prone to missing if used on a moving target. Winds of Chaos from staff clones home, giving them a very high success rate for actually landing the attacks.

Torment only ticks at maximum strength on a moving target. Targets won’t be moving continually, and so that will lower the total damage by some amount.

Lastly, malicious sorcery will be taken incredibly rarely, simply due to trait constraints, so that lowers the numbers even more.

I know its a no from you pyro, but any suggestion to make it a better condition weapon? I hate # 3 honestly and the AA so any change would be a yes for me. Heck even vuln or weakness is good too.

Even just increasing the Speed is good too. For#3, i dont like the fact that its channeled, maybe change it to be something like the wrench to give instant stacks og confusion.

PS: I said condition weapon just for the sake of the patch, because Anet wants it to be one.

Well, here’s my suggestion, variations of which I’ve offered multiple times:

1. Scepter clones now behave as melee. This causes them to cluster onto their target, making scepter uniquely suited for clone-death builds, as it would be the only condition damage mainhand that has clones attempting to stay close.
2. Scepter autoattack is now completely reworked
   1. First attack is a slow projectile, basically the same as we have now. If this lands, it activates the next chain.
   2. Second attack is a hit-scan attack that summons a clone on the target
   3. Third attack is the interesting one. This is a hit-scan attack that checks within X radius of the target for illusions, then applies a 2s cripple for each illusion in that radius

Basically, these changes make the scepter clones useful without adding damaging condition spam to the game. Additionally, it adds a highly conditional, but potentially very strong cripple attack to the autoattack. The key here is that with skilled play, i.e. clustering clones on the target properly, you can effectively land that cripple boosted with 3 illusions, and that land combos nicely into landing it again. However, the target can watch the animations and either dodge away from the clones or otherwise avoid them to counter that hit of cripple, thereby having skilled counterplay available.

But nobody listens to me, so w/e.

I vote no. P/U mesmer are already broken to kill and this just gives them dmg enough to afk autoattack on point and win.

I think it’s premature to call for a vote when we haven’t seen how people will play with this and since it’s going to depend on the game mode.

The problem, as always, is that mesmers can do well in sPvP, but only fill odd niches in WvW, PvE, and Dungeons/Fractals. (Roaming WvW is closer to sPvP.) So the very skills that make mesmers “too powerful” in sPvP are the ones that make us too weak in other modes.

I don’t see this changing how I play much: as always, I’ll use scepter only when I can’t stay close enough for sword — it won’t be because I like the scepter better; it will be because there’s no other choice.

I’m agnostic on the proposed Torment addition, but pro scepter buff in general. @Fay, I find your proposal to be very interesting as cripple is a condition that Mesmers have little access to and can use very effectively. I’m glad to see someone is offering good constructive criticism.

Fay.2357:

StickerHappy.8052:

Fay.2357:

Lily.1935:

So I ended up doing the calculations and the Scepter AA is out classed most of the time by the Staff’s auto.

Assuming that you have 3 of either clone using the scepter or staff, the staff’s damage output, although less consistent then the scepter does more damage on average. Scepter being 996 while the foe is moving with the trait Malicious sorcery. The Staff averaged 1381. Now this is taking into consideration only the duration of the conditions applied for 1 single attack from each of the clones. The staff does have a 26%(rounded up) chance to be lower then the scepter AA.

My calculations do not account for all factors but I would hope it at least gives you an idea.

We can throw a couple more factors in too. Hard to slap numbers to them, but it can show which way the results skew.

Scepter clones use a slow-moving, non-homing bolt. This means that they’re very prone to missing if used on a moving target. Winds of Chaos from staff clones home, giving them a very high success rate for actually landing the attacks.

Torment only ticks at maximum strength on a moving target. Targets won’t be moving continually, and so that will lower the total damage by some amount.

Lastly, malicious sorcery will be taken incredibly rarely, simply due to trait constraints, so that lowers the numbers even more.

I know its a no from you pyro, but any suggestion to make it a better condition weapon? I hate # 3 honestly and the AA so any change would be a yes for me. Heck even vuln or weakness is good too.

Even just increasing the Speed is good too. For#3, i dont like the fact that its channeled, maybe change it to be something like the wrench to give instant stacks og confusion.

PS: I said condition weapon just for the sake of the patch, because Anet wants it to be one.

Well, here’s my suggestion, variations of which I’ve offered multiple times:

1. Scepter clones now behave as melee. This causes them to cluster onto their target, making scepter uniquely suited for clone-death builds, as it would be the only condition damage mainhand that has clones attempting to stay close.
2. Scepter autoattack is now completely reworked
   1. First attack is a slow projectile, basically the same as we have now. If this lands, it activates the next chain.
   2. Second attack is a hit-scan attack that summons a clone on the target
   3. Third attack is the interesting one. This is a hit-scan attack that checks within X radius of the target for illusions, then applies a 2s cripple for each illusion in that radius

Basically, these changes make the scepter clones useful without adding damaging condition spam to the game. Additionally, it adds a highly conditional, but potentially very strong cripple attack to the autoattack. The key here is that with skilled play, i.e. clustering clones on the target properly, you can effectively land that cripple boosted with 3 illusions, and that land combos nicely into landing it again. However, the target can watch the animations and either dodge away from the clones or otherwise avoid them to counter that hit of cripple, thereby having skilled counterplay available.

But nobody listens to me, so w/e.

Wow, i never thought of it this way, Just my 2 cents, since the clones would go melee, i think its better to boost their walking speed by 10% to ensure that they do stick (just for the scepter clones)

Also, what is a hit scan? ;p

StickerHappy.8052:

Fay.2357:

StickerHappy.8052:

Fay.2357:

Lily.1935:

So I ended up doing the calculations and the Scepter AA is out classed most of the time by the Staff’s auto.

Assuming that you have 3 of either clone using the scepter or staff, the staff’s damage output, although less consistent then the scepter does more damage on average. Scepter being 996 while the foe is moving with the trait Malicious sorcery. The Staff averaged 1381. Now this is taking into consideration only the duration of the conditions applied for 1 single attack from each of the clones. The staff does have a 26%(rounded up) chance to be lower then the scepter AA.

My calculations do not account for all factors but I would hope it at least gives you an idea.

We can throw a couple more factors in too. Hard to slap numbers to them, but it can show which way the results skew.

Scepter clones use a slow-moving, non-homing bolt. This means that they’re very prone to missing if used on a moving target. Winds of Chaos from staff clones home, giving them a very high success rate for actually landing the attacks.

Torment only ticks at maximum strength on a moving target. Targets won’t be moving continually, and so that will lower the total damage by some amount.

Lastly, malicious sorcery will be taken incredibly rarely, simply due to trait constraints, so that lowers the numbers even more.

I know its a no from you pyro, but any suggestion to make it a better condition weapon? I hate # 3 honestly and the AA so any change would be a yes for me. Heck even vuln or weakness is good too.

Even just increasing the Speed is good too. For#3, i dont like the fact that its channeled, maybe change it to be something like the wrench to give instant stacks og confusion.

PS: I said condition weapon just for the sake of the patch, because Anet wants it to be one.

Well, here’s my suggestion, variations of which I’ve offered multiple times:

1. Scepter clones now behave as melee. This causes them to cluster onto their target, making scepter uniquely suited for clone-death builds, as it would be the only condition damage mainhand that has clones attempting to stay close.
2. Scepter autoattack is now completely reworked
   1. First attack is a slow projectile, basically the same as we have now. If this lands, it activates the next chain.
   2. Second attack is a hit-scan attack that summons a clone on the target
   3. Third attack is the interesting one. This is a hit-scan attack that checks within X radius of the target for illusions, then applies a 2s cripple for each illusion in that radius

Basically, these changes make the scepter clones useful without adding damaging condition spam to the game. Additionally, it adds a highly conditional, but potentially very strong cripple attack to the autoattack. The key here is that with skilled play, i.e. clustering clones on the target properly, you can effectively land that cripple boosted with 3 illusions, and that land combos nicely into landing it again. However, the target can watch the animations and either dodge away from the clones or otherwise avoid them to counter that hit of cripple, thereby having skilled counterplay available.

But nobody listens to me, so w/e.

Wow, i never thought of it this way, Just my 2 cents, since the clones would go melee, i think its better to boost their walking speed by 10% to ensure that they do stick (just for the scepter clones)

Also, what is a hit scan? ;p

hit-scan = the type of attack that necro scepter and axe uses.

ohh i get it, how bout scept 3? any ideas?

Fay.2357:

Well, here’s my suggestion, variations of which I’ve offered multiple times:

1. Scepter clones now behave as melee. This causes them to cluster onto their target, making scepter uniquely suited for clone-death builds, as it would be the only condition damage mainhand that has clones attempting to stay close.
2. Scepter autoattack is now completely reworked
   1. First attack is a slow projectile, basically the same as we have now. If this lands, it activates the next chain.
   2. Second attack is a hit-scan attack that summons a clone on the target
   3. Third attack is the interesting one. This is a hit-scan attack that checks within X radius of the target for illusions, then applies a 2s cripple for each illusion in that radius

Basically, these changes make the scepter clones useful without adding damaging condition spam to the game. Additionally, it adds a highly conditional, but potentially very strong cripple attack to the autoattack. The key here is that with skilled play, i.e. clustering clones on the target properly, you can effectively land that cripple boosted with 3 illusions, and that land combos nicely into landing it again. However, the target can watch the animations and either dodge away from the clones or otherwise avoid them to counter that hit of cripple, thereby having skilled counterplay available.

But nobody listens to me, so w/e.

No Pyro, the Ether Clone must remain its projectile form so we can have Tornado clone and Lich clone, its simply just healthy for the game.

@StickerHappy: on the other hand, Scepter #3 can be a hit-scan attack to make it land more reliably even with the long wind-up and cast time still. The effect can be reworked to look like “Death from Above” Purple Lase Ray.

No please, probably best condition in game in AA + clones? A big NO. Passive, no skill at all.

Demon.2430:

No please, probably best condition in game in AA + clones? A big NO. Passive, no skill at all.

why does everyone keep saying passive?

I dont even think torment is the best condition in the game. But if you keep saying it is, then change Torment to Chill on clones AA. lol.

Also, no skill? so other professions’ condition AA are also no skill?

I agree torment on clones is a little bit overboard, retain torment on AA, and put pyro’s suggestion, remove torment on clones.

No.

I don’t think this scepter buff is going to be that much of a big deal for the most part, but I think simply plopping a dps condition on scepter is boring and I’d prefer something else entirely actually.

No, its way too strong and totally not in line with the rest of the buffs. While most buffs are based on more aloe, which by the way is great, this buff will, again, only make the already overpowered solo type based condition builds stronger. I would suggest to remove 1 of the 2 from 12 seconds to 8 seconds or reduce the amount of stacks from 5 to 4. Reduce confusing images casting time by 0.5 seconds. I can imagine them buffing the auto attack but with that done it should either be buffed just a tiny bit or decent but also with compromised nerfs on the block.

people are saying that it’ll be way too strong but the math says that its much weaker then staff AA.

helseth wants the ie buff to his spec.. helseth dosent want pu buffed. people think helseth is better then them at mesmer so they blindly listen to him about the change.

Appeal to authority (argumentum ab auctoritate) – where an assertion is deemed true because of the position or authority of the person asserting it.

Sorry about the quotes! I couldn’t figure out how to make it look pretty so I did it the old fashion way :p

“So there’s basically no positive impact for this change, the only thing it does is slightly buff some already strong builds.” -Fay.2357

I agree and based off Chaos Archangel’s initial dichotomy of Pro Torment (Not sure if OP)/ Anti Torment (OP nerf)I would say “yes” in terms of increasing some builds that will be seen in solo queue but not to the godlike levels that people keep insisting.

“Will this change make condition shatter (torment shatter) builds viable? Nope, not even close.”

I agree here as well…increasing the duration doesn’t help that GM trait at all for the competitive GM illusions that are available and the restrictions that are already placed on our trait distributions.

“Additionally, it absolutely reeks of lazy design.”

I completely agree and I did make a note that I didn’t like the design philosophy behind this change. I feel that GS 3 got this same level of love by completely ignoring all the interesting ideas even after a dev response was seen. But really after two years it isn’t really that surprising seeing as we are either being pushed to shatter or PU (with some rare interrupt Mesmer here and there).

Like you mention in your post, scepter will now get sent to the bottom of some “list of things for Mesmers” (If…there even is one after 2 years) and that is sad in itself. I actually started my other post with a Both..but then realized that the question was asking “Do you think it is OP?” not “Do you think this is a sufficient change for an underused weapon?”. Just going back to Chaos Archangel’s initial question in this thread however…I would say yes in the sense that it isn’t OP but that I agree with you that it is really a horrible bandaid that doesn’t have any meaningful design change to Mesmers.

Tl;dr: Yes it is not OP (Chaos Archangel’s initial question), No it doesn’t contribute in any way to a meaningful Mesmer experience.

Still waiting for somebody to tell me how PU is OP outside of ’i’m too lazy to run away from this 1v1 in WvWvW’

Yes.

1) The Scepter needed to be brought back to its beta goodness as a viable weapon. (For the newcomers, the Scepter stacked confusion on AA in beta.)

2) It’s time ANet stopped catering to the PvP crowd, and forced them to learn counter strategy rather than just nerfing a class that others complain about. Not meaning any disrespect, but that is the general impression on how PvP’ers appear to approach difficulty (from 2 years of reading pvp-related posts that constantly accuse each other of being OP).

3) PvE condition build needed a major buff to make it viable. This is certainly a step in the right direction.

Yes, we should give it a try before making judgement on it. I still think putting torment on scepter AA into Miam trait will solve this “PU torment OP!” but I can also see it forces scepter user into illusion grandmaster.

Sethren.8472:

3) PvE condition build needed a major buff to make it viable. This is certainly a step in the right direction.

Gonna have to disagree with you on this one. It’s a step in the right direction in the same sense that hopping on a trampoline is getting me closer to a moon landing. There are so many systemic changes that need to be made before condition anything even becomes remotely viable, this change means simply nothing.

Yes

It isn’t what I really wanted, but I think the possibility of making more viable condi Mesmer builds is worth the experiment. I think this doesn’t really change the nature of the blackwater build very much. It makes it more powerful, but if you could beat the blackwater build before, I think you can still beat it now. And you can certainly run away.

The new builds that focus on this also seem like they will give up mobility. I mucked around for a bit trying to get a sense of what some builds might be like, and I just couldn’t take the lack of mobility. Perhaps someone will come up with something clever and it will seem unbalanced.

On a personal level, I’ve used scepter in a power build for more than a year. It can be a bit frustrating as a weapon, and I’ve been hoping for some improvement. So I’ll take it. Also, scepter is the starting weapon for new mesmers, so it would be nice to make that weapon more effective – hopefully it helps a few more starting mesmers get beyond the first levels.

It seems likely that this change will be undone to some degree, but I’m hoping that balance changes happen more frequently now. So it’s better to get it out there and see if it turns out to be as bad as our worst fears, and then adjust it if needed.

No.

They should’ve made it poison rather than torment. Mesmers only have Chaos Storm for RNG poison on a 35sec cooldown. It’s also not an intensity-stacking condition, so clones can’t just completely play the game for you.

Then clean up the rest of scepter by reducing the cast time on the 3rd-in-chain auto and laser beam; suddenly scepter is extremely viable for constant poison uptime and isn’t super clunky.

yes,
because yes mesmer should be dangerous if they wield a sceper. scepter used to be good before confusion nerf and then it was just a slow whatever kinda weapon. especially in wvw id love to be able to make a torment condi build which i already had but with the scepter i think its a great addition.
and no its not op, but its very strong which is good. mesmer need to be able to come back into the meta. i have shelved mine fore like 4 months now.

No

Its too much. CondiShatter builds are viable now. We have a lot of options to apply Torment now and still we are getting more added.
If Torment was Sugar, we’ll have cavities within a week.
When other players start making builds specifically to destroy our Clone Wall of Torment, nerfs will be heading our way, possibly to other aspects of our gameplay that work better.

Renny.6571:

Mesmers only have Chaos Storm for RNG poison on a 35sec cooldown. It’s also not an intensity-stacking condition, so clones can’t just completely play the game for you.

This please.
Chaos Storm could be utilized so much more effectively, as it also a finisher.

NO

Does not promote skillful game play in any way, shape or form. The PU build would clearly benefit the most with this change.

Basically what Windwalker said. :P

Mmm this is an interesting one.
Sure for the sake that the AA as it is is complete rubbish and needs reworking this patch is great.
But the rework that it was, meh. It was lazy and not thought through. What it needs is not some condition that you sit there spamming or what not, the AA needs something else entirely. Pyro’s idea was interesting and unique, and that’s what mesmer needs right now. Not necessarily that concept, but something that adds spark and creativity to a bland skill (doesn’t mean that it will be op, but exciting and strategically valuable).

So its a no from me here.

rabidsmiles.5926:

It’s fine, people are over reacting over a change they haven’t seen in game yet. As long as they don’t go after my Illusionary Elasticity…been waiting for that fix for a while now.

Pretty much what is said here. The buff is fine and warranted as scepter is complete garbage. People overreacting and on the coat tails of a few posters is making this a problem when it isn’t.

Here we go: Yes

Do I think it is a good or a bad move? I do not care or know. It won’t have any influx in PvE anyways.

But, it is a buff for the mesmer class, and if this class needs one thing after the constant torment of nerfing over the last two years it is some love (read buffs).

Buff mesmers – this is a buff, so it got my two thumbs up.

Yes

Why new AA will not be OP:
With 0 cd we got:
Staff Clon do 1s Burning its (328 dmg) or 5 s bleed (it is 42.5*5 = 212,5 dmg) or Vulnerability (0 dmg) what give (212+328+0)/3=180 dmg/hit
Scepter clon do 2 s Torment it will be 31.875*2*2=127,5 dmg/hit if target is moving

you can have staff clon (180 dmg) or scepter (127 dmg) now tell me how staff clon is not OP and scepter clon will be? LOL

Staff AA was not nerf from day 1 (only buff) and no one sey that it’s OP.

(Btw new IE will give Staff dmg*2 in 1v1.)

80% of replyes here that sey No looks like that: “No, im Shatter Mesmer, its OP” but shoud sey: “No, its not buff for Shatter Mesmer that why its OP I dont want scepter to be CD weapon i want to be shatter weapon” but it dont make scepter AA OP like you sey.

I like Condition Damage, I play Condition Mesmer and i like that new scepter AA. That make scepter clon useful i will not need to think that change to scepter will ends of 10 s dps lose like it is now and using scepter skills will kill my dps clon changing them to useless scepter clon.

Atm we have for Condition Damage only staff and weak scepter. For AP Mesmer we have good S/(S/F/P) /GS combo that is good for all AP bilds. Condition Mesmer dont have good 2nd MH.

Btw PU is not OP but Stealth is. Stealth shoud be change, not PU, what will nerf PU too at the end.

I’m not voting, for the reason that I have mixed views on the ‘buff’. However, I believe that ANet could have ‘buffed’ it in a similar way to added torment to the 2nd/3rd AA and actually BUFFING confusion back up… the 50% nerf to confusion was pointless and build-breaking. Even a 25% boost to confusion in PvP/WvW would be great for me, since I have no interest in using confusion during PvE… (This would stop the other prof.s from crying instead of a 50% boost)

I vote NO because I know how to make it OP and I also know a bunch of people who know what I know.

Also this;

Torment on Scepter 1 was just ridiculous, considering that now Clones will apply it as well. PU; whilst having pretty much no role in PvP due to preponderance on Stealth and poor mobility making it unsuited to the Conquest gametype, is nonetheless one of the most anti-fun builds to fight against with one of the lowest skill floors; and remains one of the top duelists in WvW (if people don’t run away). This Torment change will drop the skill floor to below that of Axe-Mace GS PvE Warrior in mindless self indulgence. Heck, with this change, PU can now auto-chain until a clone is generated, stealth, and go take a nap whilst self-perpetuating clones do all the pressuring. Using any form of active play like Shatters would actually be counterproductive; which speaks to the stupidity of the setup. It’s a stupid change with a negative skill floor; all the while Anet’s design team trumpets wanting to encourage “active play.”

As seen in the comment section here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e6P9ONocc2o

Also, to the people who say the AA is ‘brain-less’ or whatever, it’s not like you can use the AA in stealth or just stand still while spamming it and not expect to be hit down by a condi necro. As stated in some earlier posts, people at looking at the perfect situations where NOTHING CAN GO WRONG (which is completely false).

My vote is no, and the primary reason is because of PU. The scepter AA design change isn’t the greatest yes, but this is the game we play and the mindset behind balance. That isn’t changing anytime soon.

But I do wonder …

If PU didn’t exist as a trait or was nerfed a bit, how many of these no votes would change to yes?

Giving up on the idea the devs can come up with something else, my vote would change to yes in that case.

I’m actually rather indifferent. I worry about PU getting to strong but at the same time I don’t think it will change the status quo.

I am however going to say No to the change. Because I feel there are better options to explore. I think scepter would do better off being a defensive weapon with built in utility, which would also strengthen PU but I feel it would make the weapon more viable over all.

Adding torment just so the clones can have a condi is… I don’t want to say lazy? But uncreative? for lack of a better term.

Dirame.8521:

I vote NO because I know how to make it OP and I also know a bunch of people who know what I know.

Also this;

Torment on Scepter 1 was just ridiculous, considering that now Clones will apply it as well. PU; whilst having pretty much no role in PvP due to preponderance on Stealth and poor mobility making it unsuited to the Conquest gametype, is nonetheless one of the most anti-fun builds to fight against with one of the lowest skill floors; and remains one of the top duelists in WvW (if people don’t run away). This Torment change will drop the skill floor to below that of Axe-Mace GS PvE Warrior in mindless self indulgence. Heck, with this change, PU can now auto-chain until a clone is generated, stealth, and go take a nap whilst self-perpetuating clones do all the pressuring. Using any form of active play like Shatters would actually be counterproductive; which speaks to the stupidity of the setup. It’s a stupid change with a negative skill floor; all the while Anet’s design team trumpets wanting to encourage “active play.”

As seen in the comment section here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e6P9ONocc2o

Please note that scepter clones only use the first attack in the chain. This is how it always has been, and how it always will be. The clones do not generate more clones. This would be incredibly broken.

No, for all of the reasons already stated. Being forced to deal with turret engineers is already bad enough. If they introduce yet another brain dead build into the game I am likely going to quit PvP entirely. People who say this will only be an issue in WvW are dead wrong.

I’d vote no due to the fact it’ll make an already broken build more broken. Its more inline of a grandmaster trait but dont add it just because you think noone uses scepter.

I vote yes because I mainly roam in wvw and I am sick of gankers chasing me, with these changes, I at least have a decent chance of killing them.

From a mechanical perspective, confusion would make more sense, why not just give scepter confusion back on the clones, and drop the torment?

Fay.2357:

Please note that scepter clones only use the first attack in the chain. This is how it always has been, and how it always will be. The clones do not generate more clones. This would be incredibly broken.

Nothing in my comment says anything about clones spawning more clones. That’s not what self-perpetuating means in that comment.