Guild Wars 2

Dirame.8521:

Fay.2357:

Please note that scepter clones only use the first attack in the chain. This is how it always has been, and how it always will be. The clones do not generate more clones. This would be incredibly broken.

Nothing in my comment says anything about clones spawning more clones. That’s not what self-perpetuating means in that comment.

I’m fairly sure that is what it means in that comment. They said you can put up one clone, then go to sleep while ‘self perpetuating clones’ do all the work. The definition of self-perpetuating is literally ‘creating more of oneself’. Therefor, I felt the need to clarify that scepter clones do not self perpetuate, on top of the obvious fact that scepter clones won’t do as much damage as staff clones do.

Fay.2357:

Dirame.8521:

Fay.2357:

Please note that scepter clones only use the first attack in the chain. This is how it always has been, and how it always will be. The clones do not generate more clones. This would be incredibly broken.

Nothing in my comment says anything about clones spawning more clones. That’s not what self-perpetuating means in that comment.

I’m fairly sure that is what it means in that comment. They said you can put up one clone, then go to sleep while ‘self perpetuating clones’ do all the work. The definition of self-perpetuating is literally ‘creating more of oneself’. Therefor, I felt the need to clarify that scepter clones do not self perpetuate, on top of the obvious fact that scepter clones won’t do as much damage as staff clones do.

Youre idea still intrigues me, but we still have to rework no. 3, whattya think?

StickerHappy.8052:

Fay.2357:

Dirame.8521:

Fay.2357:

Please note that scepter clones only use the first attack in the chain. This is how it always has been, and how it always will be. The clones do not generate more clones. This would be incredibly broken.

Nothing in my comment says anything about clones spawning more clones. That’s not what self-perpetuating means in that comment.

I’m fairly sure that is what it means in that comment. They said you can put up one clone, then go to sleep while ‘self perpetuating clones’ do all the work. The definition of self-perpetuating is literally ‘creating more of oneself’. Therefor, I felt the need to clarify that scepter clones do not self perpetuate, on top of the obvious fact that scepter clones won’t do as much damage as staff clones do.

Youre idea still intrigues me, but we still have to rework no. 3, whattya think?

Nothing is particularly wrong with number 3. It’s a tiny bit on the clunky side, but you can use the long cast time to bait out dodges and stuff. A rework would be nice I suppose, but very low priority compared to the literally unusable autoattack.

For other classes yeah, but with someone using interrupts no. 3 is an easy bait. On your original idea, are you referring to same projectile speed? And the melee clones, what do they do on their attacks?

Chaos Archangel.5071:

• ANTI-TORMENT Prismatic Understanding (PU) condition Mesmers will become stupidly overpowered and easy to play (“cancerous” to the game). Auto-attacks should not be so powerful.

I would like to respond to this specifically. This is mathematically incorrect. If you are using the scepter clones over the staff clones then you are suffering around a 25% damage reduction. Give or take. And that is in the most ideal situation you can get with the clones.

StickerHappy.8052:

For other classes yeah, but with someone using interrupts no. 3 is an easy bait. On your original idea, are you referring to same projectile speed? And the melee clones, what do they do on their attacks?

It’s actually great to use it as bait for interrupts in a lot of cases. You can pretty much guarantee someone trying to interrupt it, and so that allows you to either quickly catch it with a block, or put the interrupt on cooldown for a cast that actually matters.

Fay.2357:

StickerHappy.8052:

For other classes yeah, but with someone using interrupts no. 3 is an easy bait. On your original idea, are you referring to same projectile speed? And the melee clones, what do they do on their attacks?

It’s actually great to use it as bait for interrupts in a lot of cases. You can pretty much guarantee someone trying to interrupt it, and so that allows you to either quickly catch it with a block, or put the interrupt on cooldown for a cast that actually matters.

Whadya mean? So cancel 3 while channeling and quickly press 2?

StickerHappy.8052:

Fay.2357:

StickerHappy.8052:

For other classes yeah, but with someone using interrupts no. 3 is an easy bait. On your original idea, are you referring to same projectile speed? And the melee clones, what do they do on their attacks?

It’s actually great to use it as bait for interrupts in a lot of cases. You can pretty much guarantee someone trying to interrupt it, and so that allows you to either quickly catch it with a block, or put the interrupt on cooldown for a cast that actually matters.

Whadya mean? So cancel 3 while channeling and quickly press 2?

Yep.

Fay.2357:

StickerHappy.8052:

Fay.2357:

StickerHappy.8052:

For other classes yeah, but with someone using interrupts no. 3 is an easy bait. On your original idea, are you referring to same projectile speed? And the melee clones, what do they do on their attacks?

It’s actually great to use it as bait for interrupts in a lot of cases. You can pretty much guarantee someone trying to interrupt it, and so that allows you to either quickly catch it with a block, or put the interrupt on cooldown for a cast that actually matters.

Whadya mean? So cancel 3 while channeling and quickly press 2?

Yep.

Ohh i see, havent thought of it that way. Very good idea.

Fay.2357:

StickerHappy.8052:

Fay.2357:

StickerHappy.8052:

For other classes yeah, but with someone using interrupts no. 3 is an easy bait. On your original idea, are you referring to same projectile speed? And the melee clones, what do they do on their attacks?

It’s actually great to use it as bait for interrupts in a lot of cases. You can pretty much guarantee someone trying to interrupt it, and so that allows you to either quickly catch it with a block, or put the interrupt on cooldown for a cast that actually matters.

Whadya mean? So cancel 3 while channeling and quickly press 2?

Yep.

Another way to do that would be like players do with mirror blade to bait out a dodge (or interrupt). Cast, then stow weapon during animation (that way you can try to avoid the interrupt entirely).

Another thing I like to do with confusing images is begin the channel well out of range and blink into range just when the attack goes off. This works well in openers or disengage/re-engage scenarios and can really surprise people.

While I believe scepter should get some form of a condition on auto, it should NOT be torment. Torment is simply too strong to apply like free candy and it will cover the one weakness a PU mes has: to be able to run away from the fight.

Warlord of Chaos.7845:

While I believe scepter should get some form of a condition on auto, it should NOT be torment. Torment is simply too strong to apply like free candy and it will cover the one weakness a PU mes has: to be able to run away from the fight.

how will it do that? its weaker then the staff.

Yes for me. I love this change, Scepter definitely needs it and its nice to have another condition-weapon that isn’t based on Sharpened Images.

And I think Scepter is bad enough that it evens out how good free Torment on an AA is. The Scepter auto chain is slow, both in terms of actual attack speed and in terms of projectile speed. Scepter clones attack painfully slow. If this change was given to a fast weapon like Ranger Shortbow or Mesmer Greatsword or something, then yah, there’d be some balance issues perhaps. But given how lackluster Scepter’s AA is in general, I think it’ll even out.

As far as specific builds being potentially broken with this change, that’s something to look at as far as those specific builds go, then.

skcamow.3527:

Fay.2357:

StickerHappy.8052:

Fay.2357:

StickerHappy.8052:

For other classes yeah, but with someone using interrupts no. 3 is an easy bait. On your original idea, are you referring to same projectile speed? And the melee clones, what do they do on their attacks?

It’s actually great to use it as bait for interrupts in a lot of cases. You can pretty much guarantee someone trying to interrupt it, and so that allows you to either quickly catch it with a block, or put the interrupt on cooldown for a cast that actually matters.

Whadya mean? So cancel 3 while channeling and quickly press 2?

Yep.

Another way to do that would be like players do with mirror blade to bait out a dodge (or interrupt). Cast, then stow weapon during animation (that way you can try to avoid the interrupt entirely).

Another thing I like to do with confusing images is begin the channel well out of range and blink into range just when the attack goes off. This works well in openers or disengage/re-engage scenarios and can really surprise people.

I see. Thanks! Maybe i can beat rylock now with your advices haha. Jk. I need to play more calmly.

YES.

Scepter auto attack is too weak right now. The balance problems are in the cake. Not in the icing. Mesmer will still be too strong in some game modes and too weak on others.

Yes!

I’ve already made my opinion clear on maybe 7 different threads and in-game so I’ll refrain from repeating myself. Many people here have already went in depth about how this change is better for the Mesmer and why many people should not just theorymon until we get a chance to play it.

Every buff the Mesmers are getting is seriously helping us in all modes of gameplay. I can think of 4 different build sets that will love both Scepter AA, Staff fix, and GS buff. PU Mesmers kinda have a way of punishing people who run away from them (although as someone pointed out already, it won’t help by much) in WvW. And now Mesmers have a cool addition to condi builds as well as defensive builds (read: Mesmers who want their enemies to stay the hell away from them) in PvE.

I would also like to say that after reading the comments, I am very happy that a statistical majority of the Mesmers here are not whining about these changes. I’m very happy that we are all voicing out opinions in what I think is the best possible way!

Kudos to the OP for the poll
Kudos to the Mesmer community for being awesome and optimistic

StickerHappy.8052:

skcamow.3527:

Fay.2357:

StickerHappy.8052:

Fay.2357:

StickerHappy.8052:

For other classes yeah, but with someone using interrupts no. 3 is an easy bait. On your original idea, are you referring to same projectile speed? And the melee clones, what do they do on their attacks?

It’s actually great to use it as bait for interrupts in a lot of cases. You can pretty much guarantee someone trying to interrupt it, and so that allows you to either quickly catch it with a block, or put the interrupt on cooldown for a cast that actually matters.

Whadya mean? So cancel 3 while channeling and quickly press 2?

Yep.

Another way to do that would be like players do with mirror blade to bait out a dodge (or interrupt). Cast, then stow weapon during animation (that way you can try to avoid the interrupt entirely).

Another thing I like to do with confusing images is begin the channel well out of range and blink into range just when the attack goes off. This works well in openers or disengage/re-engage scenarios and can really surprise people.

I see. Thanks! Maybe i can beat rylock now with your advices haha. Jk. I need to play more calmly.

Are you sure you wanna play the stow weapon game with me? Chaos tried to do that and I still interrupted his abilities

Warlord of Chaos.7845:

StickerHappy.8052:

skcamow.3527:

Fay.2357:

StickerHappy.8052:

Fay.2357:

StickerHappy.8052:

For other classes yeah, but with someone using interrupts no. 3 is an easy bait. On your original idea, are you referring to same projectile speed? And the melee clones, what do they do on their attacks?

It’s actually great to use it as bait for interrupts in a lot of cases. You can pretty much guarantee someone trying to interrupt it, and so that allows you to either quickly catch it with a block, or put the interrupt on cooldown for a cast that actually matters.

Whadya mean? So cancel 3 while channeling and quickly press 2?

Yep.

Another way to do that would be like players do with mirror blade to bait out a dodge (or interrupt). Cast, then stow weapon during animation (that way you can try to avoid the interrupt entirely).

Another thing I like to do with confusing images is begin the channel well out of range and blink into range just when the attack goes off. This works well in openers or disengage/re-engage scenarios and can really surprise people.

I see. Thanks! Maybe i can beat rylock now with your advices haha. Jk. I need to play more calmly.

Are you sure you wanna play the stow weapon game with me? Chaos tried to do that and I still interrupted his abilities

I dont need to use that, i just need to play calmly, haha we should duel secretly not knowing we are fighting one another. If i know its you i get tense and mess up my plans

NO DON’T if this get’s implemented to the game Mesmer will easily be the strongest class in game is pathetic, lame and sad at the same time how anet doesn’t see’s this… ARENA NET pls open your freaking eyes, condi Mesmer are already the strongest 1v1 characters in game the supervibality they have is just insane: teleports, stunt breaks, movements, vigor protection and healing boon combination, and pls don’t get me even started on the amount of invisibility they have… i beg you pls dont ruin the game simply don’t do it. but if you are pls nerf them something… give them a weakness like nerfing illusionary counter cause they dont have none atm.

just have clones do 0 torment on thier auto attack.. and have first and second chain of the mesmers auto attack do 4 seconds each.

that way noone crys about passive game play.. you can only apply it with your own attack and the clones can still be there for death traits / shatters.

in reality.. what condition.. when stacked by 3 clones +you at the same time.. is weak enough to be added to the scepter.. the issue is anything x4 is strong.

4 cripple/weakness/vuln/chill/ whatever are all pretty strong x4

thats why staff works because it is randomized.

just give the scepter the same treatment and randomize 3 condis on aa 1.

chill torment cripple. or whatver works out best in balance.

Yes, I’m in favor of this change.
The scepter needed something, esp for the clones. Because they attack sooooo slow, they needed a condition or something to make it work, since it’s a condition based weapon.
Torment, I think you could have a debate about, it can be very powerful, and more sources of it I think is a good thing. And 2 secs on Torment per clone, yeah it doesn’t last very long but it does stack, so. Yeah it could be quite strong, just slow.

Your certainly not going to be bursting anyone down with this.

as everyone has already said.. even with this buff condi pu will still be garbage for everything that isnt hotjoin trolling.

Yes :P because it’s the first option

Yes. Scepter auto attack was useless as condi weapon.

but i don’t know what is your problem, you always call condi mesmer useless, so there is no problem to add 1 condi on useless build.

I think the idea form A-net is to freed condi mesmer from duelling trait (sharper image)
i guess you should prefer pain from bleed, since formaly it deels fewer damage.

No, please do not add torment to scepter auto attack or clones!!!

The decision for this change seems like it was too much from a PvP perspective. Before scepter auto attack was like trying to beat someone to death with a wet noodle, now it will be like taking a spiked bat and beating someones legs with it so they won’t be able to move!

The second auto attack is going to apply 4 seconds of torment! Torment is 75% of bleed damage while not moving, and 150% while moving. In PvP your opponent is more than likely going to be moving, so by simply hitting them with your second auto atack you will apply a condition that hits harder than bleeds and will tick 4 times in total. Meanwhile your clones will be auto attacking and applying 2 seconds torment each, which is again another two ticks of torment. With three clones out you will be able to apply a minimum of 8 second, or 8 ticks of torment just by simply autottacking. Which is a huge slap to the face to Maim the Disillusioned which is a Grandmaster trait that will apply 12 seconds of torment IF you can get 3 clones to land their shatter. They’re taking an auto attack and making it’s strength comparable to a Grandmaster trait which are supposed to be the strongest part of any spec.

Trying to counter condi scepter specs will not be fun, and I suggest instead of making this a straight buff to the auto attack, at least make it a trait or make it so only the third auto attack applies torment.

Edit: Also you could simply make scepter better by fixing that incredibly clunky #3 skill. The cast time and start up take way too long for subpar damage and 5 stacks of confusion. The tell on it is obvious and it can easily be avoided by just one evade.

Beraval.6148:

No. Adding torment to the scepter auto attack would create a spec that requires little to no skill that can easily 1v1 any class. Even managing your cooldowns would not be necessary since a majority of you damage would be on your autoattack, even clones can be spawned using the autoattack. My fear is the new pvp Mesmer meta will be a build with a bunch of passive defensive abilities and will require no skill.

I feel that the scepter does need a buff however and to make the scepter less overpowered the torment should only be added to the final strike in the autoattack chain.

“..creates build of little skill…”
This build already exists. It is called;
1) spirit ranger
2) celestial scepter/dagger ele
3) any warrior build, take your pick
4)HGH nade engi
5)black smoke d/p thief
6)beast master ranger
7)minionmancer
8) terrormancer
9) turret engineer

Oscar Wilde once said, “It is not selfish to live how you want to live. It is only selfish to expect others to live how you want them to live.” If you want to play mantra’s, or shatter, no one is stopping you. Just because something good happen to scepter, it takes nothing away from anything else. The world doesn’t need another person who complains about what is on TV, but refuses to change the channel. Everybody seems to viewing this buff as Pvp specific and also complain conditions are weak in PvE. PvP in this game is small, PvE has the far greater population. This is the condition style PvE players have been demanding. They got it. Majority rules. It still doesn’t stop any other mesmer playing how they want in any other game mode.

CntrlAltDefeat.1465:

Beraval.6148:

No. Adding torment to the scepter auto attack would create a spec that requires little to no skill that can easily 1v1 any class. Even managing your cooldowns would not be necessary since a majority of you damage would be on your autoattack, even clones can be spawned using the autoattack. My fear is the new pvp Mesmer meta will be a build with a bunch of passive defensive abilities and will require no skill.

I feel that the scepter does need a buff however and to make the scepter less overpowered the torment should only be added to the final strike in the autoattack chain.

"..creates build of little skill..."
This build already exists. It is called;
1) spirit ranger
2) celestial scepter/dagger ele
3) any warrior build, take your pick
4)HGH nade engi
5)black smoke d/p thief
6)beast master ranger
7)minionmancer
8) terrormancer
9) turret engineer

Oscar Wilde once said, "It is not selfish to live how you want to live. It is only selfish to expect others to live how you want them to live." If you want to play mantra’s, or shatter, no one is stopping you. Just because something good happen to scepter, it takes nothing away from anything else. The world doesn’t need another person who complains about what is on TV, but refuses to change the channel. Everybody seems to viewing this buff as Pvp specific and also complain conditions are weak in PvE. PvP in this game is small, PvE has the far greater population. This is the condition style PvE players have been demanding. They got it. Majority rules. It still doesn’t stop any other mesmer playing how they want in any other game mode.

Except PU condition memser is more faceroll than just about everything you listed with about highest survivability of any spec. Something that is easy to play should not become meta even with out pu condition mesmer is still very strong. They can have the torment on auto but should not have pu and the same time. It should be made a trait so mesmer would have to choose.

vincecontix.1264:

Except PU condition memser is more faceroll than just about everything you listed with about highest survivability of any spec. Something that is easy to play should not become meta even with out pu condition mesmer is still very strong. They can have the torment on auto but should not have pu and the same time. It should be made a trait so mesmer would have to choose.

I’m curious, why are you so worried about torment when many people have shown mathematically that staff clones do significantly higher damage with far greater reliability?

Yes.

People keep forgetting that scepter is a horribad weapon and that their are other specs that use scepter, that dont go into PU.

If PU is a problem fix the trait. ( remove Aegis)

vincecontix.1264:

CntrlAltDefeat.1465:

Beraval.6148:

No. Adding torment to the scepter auto attack would create a spec that requires little to no skill that can easily 1v1 any class. Even managing your cooldowns would not be necessary since a majority of you damage would be on your autoattack, even clones can be spawned using the autoattack. My fear is the new pvp Mesmer meta will be a build with a bunch of passive defensive abilities and will require no skill.

I feel that the scepter does need a buff however and to make the scepter less overpowered the torment should only be added to the final strike in the autoattack chain.

“..creates build of little skill…”
This build already exists. It is called;
1) spirit ranger
2) celestial scepter/dagger ele
3) any warrior build, take your pick
4)HGH nade engi
5)black smoke d/p thief
6)beast master ranger
7)minionmancer
8) terrormancer
9) turret engineer

Oscar Wilde once said, “It is not selfish to live how you want to live. It is only selfish to expect others to live how you want them to live.” If you want to play mantra’s, or shatter, no one is stopping you. Just because something good happen to scepter, it takes nothing away from anything else. The world doesn’t need another person who complains about what is on TV, but refuses to change the channel. Everybody seems to viewing this buff as Pvp specific and also complain conditions are weak in PvE. PvP in this game is small, PvE has the far greater population. This is the condition style PvE players have been demanding. They got it. Majority rules. It still doesn’t stop any other mesmer playing how they want in any other game mode.

Except PU condition memser is more faceroll than just about everything you listed with about highest survivability of any spec..

O that’s rights

Because mesmer was one of the most picked classes in the latest ToL

..o wait….

Some notes about Scepter:
With not patched

• Scepter AA chain:
  - dps 0.4487 skillco efficient (150 damge)
  Chain is 3secs54milisecs = 3.9
  - total damage: 1.75 skillcoefficient (588 damage)
• make clone which gives non damage and use only 1st attack, does not chain
  ——————————
  As give more examples on others AA

War long bow:

• dps: 0.5546 (%23 more damage scepter AA)
• trait give boost them as %100 double projectile finisher :S + 1200range (from wiki note)

Necro scepter:

• dps: 0.40 skillcoefficient (134damage) raw+ 254 persec condi damage(%158 More dps than mes scepter)
  - total: condi damage: 762..[2xbleed (5sec,426 damage) + 1xpoi (4sec,336 damage)], power damage: 403
  Aa chain takes 3secs..
  Condition scale: example taking rabbid amulet, total condi on AA ll be 1591, (%108 more ll increased from not using max condi amulet)
  Power scale: soldier amulet damage on AA ll be %100 more effective on raw damage with total aa chain raw damage ll be 808

Any stats can be added with precious and ferocity to look effectiveness but anyway it is out of topic..

Mes staff:
To single target,
Dps: raw; 0.222 skill coefficient, (82,22 damage)
Dps: condi; 154,6 dps
+ boons fury: can ve %74 uptime on u if could ve bounces on u always, and
Might, 3,7 can perma on u..

If ve ielacity can ve double them all..

Torment

• 1 torment gives: 32 damage per sec on not moving,
  So 1 AA chain gives, 2x 2.5 sec / 3.9 = 41 damage persec, 82 on moving
• ether clones give torment as well per attack, dunno what that clone attack frequenty
  —————
  In conclusion imo,
  There is no need to use scepter AA,
• low dps
• low velocity even movements can dodge it
• low attack rate that low efficient triggering attack on hits,
• we use 2 weapons, swaping is low cd u can i wont give my five cents to 4 sec attack,
• its not unique condition type that can stack, so easier to cleanse
• meta use of scepter is in wvw solo roaming, so who cares..
• there is new buff ielasity
  ——————-
  Tl,dr: scepter has no meta use on competitive play.. Which was already crap with damage and practically, and condi weapon that useless aa.. I think it was good start i say “yes” to OP, however i think it would better if it has CC condition as chills, blinds, i am not in for passive gameming arguments, i interest more risk/reward system.. As is it fair to sacrice 4 sec which is not highly can trigger its attacks/evadeable —> and damage in reward? Or what that skill is for?? Where how it can be used.. ?i ve no answer for it.. This sound me not passive gaming, hack and slash style for npc gaming.. However it is not working there aswell? I can miss, and couldnt read the posts

i think the “buff” will be noticable in pve and wvw group fight where mesmer have the 4 seconds to apply AA more freely than pvp or smal scale roaming

Mesmer here. I’ve been playing Mesmer since I bought the game and never looked back. I love the buffs to Mesmer except the scepter buff. Mesmer was already strong with a condi build around scepter. One of the most appealing aspects of playing Mesmer is its mobility and kiting potential. This new addition to scepter will make Mesmer the simplest class to play.
Coupled with the staff a Mesmer who has been playing the game for 3 days will never die in Spvp. I love Mesmer but I don’t want to see my class become broken to the point where it isn’t fun to play (i.e. to the point it takes no skill) Please ANET take this buff away.

Yes.

Mesmers complain when they don’t get anything and skills get broken, and when finally we get an interesting buff, some mes complain it’s too strong. I don’t get it. Personally though I would trade this buff for out of combat swiftness in a heartbeat, it’s not like it can’t be cleansed.

Azo, I don’t think your comparisons are really fair. The scepter works well enough in clone death builds which other classes don’t have (SI is a bonus as well). The scepter itself can also spike pretty hard with torment so you cant just compare auto attacks. It’s why it’s used with the staff in condi builds to finish someone off.

Anyhow, both of these weapons are now getting buffed with more condi dmg. Personally, condi PU builds don’t really give me problems but there is so much whining already about it. This will cause more whining. It doesn’t matter that there was like 1 mesmer in ToL or that it wasn’t even a condi mesmer, the masses whining about condi mesmers WILL result in massive nerfs to something. Saddly that something will probably not be the scepter or staff auto attacks/clones. On a side note, these changes make me think even more that I want the old mimic to stay!

At first glance, a 2.5 second and 4 second base torment sounded really OP to me but I realized I was thinking too much with Runes of torment/koi cakes etc for 100% torment duration. In PvP, I think it’s actually fine for the scepter and any non PU build would rightfully deserve some buff to scepter auto.

However, 5 seconds of torment on clone attacks in a clone death build that could roll in dire gear… with just scepter 2, clone on dodge, MI, and auto, a torment build could quickly (~4 seconds) hit 18 stacks of torment and start to maintain 20-25 depending on spamming a heal for torment and if the scepter CD traits actually work with Scepter 2 post patch. Then factor in clone death traits. If using rabid gear, add ~6 bleeds with the clones. The scepter auto itself and a duelist(if more bleeds wanted instead of torment) will still hit for some power dmg and the dps of this build can start to reach 8-9k solo with little ramp up time vs moving targets. I usually tell people to just walk away from condi mesmers but
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fhAQRAra7dlknpIt1oxMNMrRSpxYycm5UfRqAK9Jl3AA-TFyCABAcCAU4JAglyPm3f4iDCwlq/on+hxUCSKAIWWB-w
It’s not going to be easy to walk away from this. Acquire a givers weapon or sigil of malice if you want to drop the 2 domination for more chaos/inspiration. Dire or rabid for more tankiness or bleeds. This is going to cause whining in WvW which goes back to my prior concern of this will cause nerfs in the end.

For PvE, it won’t be ideal but why are condis bad in PvE? Bleeds don’t stack well, that’s not a problem now. The ramp up time is relatively quick. The enemies will have to move so that’s not ideal but for meta groups, but this actually seems like an ok build for PvE pug dungeon stuff and could also work for soloing a few bosses with heavy armor.

DuckDuckBOOM.4097:

At first glance, a 2.5 second and 4 second base torment sounded really OP to me but I realized I was thinking too much with Runes of torment/koi cakes etc for 100% torment duration. In PvP, I think it’s actually fine for the scepter and any non PU build would rightfully deserve some buff to scepter auto.

However, 5 seconds of torment on clone attacks in a clone death build that could roll in dire gear… with just scepter 2, clone on dodge, MI, and auto, a torment build could quickly (~4 seconds) hit 18 stacks of torment and start to maintain 20-25 depending on spamming a heal for torment and if the scepter CD traits actually work with Scepter 2 post patch. Then factor in clone death traits. If using rabid gear, add ~6 bleeds with the clones. The scepter auto itself and a duelist(if more bleeds wanted instead of torment) will still hit for some power dmg and the dps of this build can start to reach 8-9k solo with little ramp up time vs moving targets. I usually tell people to just walk away from condi mesmers but
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fhAQRAra7dlknpIt1oxMNMrRSpxYycm5UfRqAK9Jl3AA-TFyCABAcCAU4JAglyPm3f4iDCwlq/on+hxUCSKAIWWB-w
It’s not going to be easy to walk away from this. Acquire a givers weapon or sigil of malice if you want to drop the 2 domination for more chaos/inspiration. Dire or rabid for more tankiness or bleeds. This is going to cause whining in WvW which goes back to my prior concern of this will cause nerfs in the end.

Oki but you know, that you can do that combo with staff clons. With staff clons you will have less torment, but u get burning(that do more dmg then tormen), bleeding(that do more dmg then tormen), and Vulnerability. In your example you need only clean 1 conditions, but with staff you need to clean 4 conditions.

You dont need new scepter AA change to do that combo and it will do more dmg with staff clons but i dont see now conditions mesmers killing evryone in WvW or sPvP.

@DuckDuckBOOM, my comparision on AA was about Damage Per Sec dps, efficient of that aa’s damage.. Cuz ppl say it ll strong bla bla, but how it ll be strong dont show.. Anyway i hadnt read posts before me.. It remind me sarcasm, “i hit rabbit 4627274647 this damage”..
U say scepter can spike pretty high.. I would like to see it.. How much he can give in how many sec and rate of its challenge, counter measures..
Otherwise your word scepter spike high.. Ll not mean anything to me.. Make it objective.. Than subjective..
And your condi mesmer mean dire(tanky)mesmers? As pu clone death tankiness threesum, i think u would like to say nerfs that threesum.. I in.. Cuz i dont do solo roam in wvw.. Anywhere that pu clonedeath tankycondi builds can work in high competitive no.. Cuz others classes roles even shatter can better rfficient than scepter or pu build ex in tpvp..
I found i made mistake on math on AA.. Cuz both 1st and 2nd scepter attacks ll do 2.5 sec torment.. However u remind 4sec..
Ok others lemongrass>koi .. Example u give 10 sec condi to foe with %0 condi duration on u.. Think u used koi so it become 14 sec (+4sec) but if enemy has lemongrass -%40 it ll not decrease -4 sec.. It ll 14×0.40= -5.6 sec socomparision between foods 5.4/4 = lemon is%40 more efficient than koi…
And with simple situation while u aa enemy with 4sec, any class dps can outnumber yours if u re balanced (guess all had ascendant with full customization)
Probably u ll not use daze for can aa better enemy
Any pvp can ve a scenerio as u say clones give tormentss 18stackss etc. no ofc.. if u say it about wvw? In large scale condi ? Probable u refer solo gaming, however no one would like to do pvp with condi pu mesmers.. In roaming.. Who ll care there is no rank.. Make video and let ppl wow is easy not require skilled gaming. Chance and imagination.. Subjective.. Anyway,
Tl,dr: i didnt satisfied about opowered description of this buff.. Require more math/brainstorm/theorycrafts.. Imo Still AA is not efficient as how ppl think.. I think ppl make mistake with mixing where their complains comes from.. As clone death, pu skill.. And mesmer role..

NO. I’m tired of facing condition stealth mesmers and other kinds of low risk builds.

I am officially saying YES to the new torment scepter attack.

While the torment condition damage is potentially one of the most dangerous, 2 seconds of torment from an autoattack wouldn’t be too much OP. In fact, it’s just on the borderline between balanced and under powered (or UP). Bleeding and burning conditions do more damage than torment and is still sought out as the most common way to inflict condition damage against people. Torment will be a nice signature for mesmers and I welcome it wholefully!

I did say “it sounded really OP but then I realized…” It was mostly an excersise in seeing how far it could be taken. My main concern is that people will complain —> nerfs regardless of it not being OP.

For PvE, condis are still usually not viable but this does help a bit since torment isn’t stacked often so your group won’t override your strong condition. In groups that kite bosses (non-meta groups) it actually does comparable dmg to zerker builds.

Is it going to be stronger than staff clones? Not necessarily but it’s pretty easy to run from a staff mesmer. The bounce only matters if you are within 600 range so even with the fix to IE, it’s easy to half the dmg that a staff build does by running away. Then run a bit more and they just won’t catch you. My example has torment and bleeds as baseline. It’s a clone death build that can add confusion, cripple, weakness, more bleeds and vulnerability as well. Poison from sigil. Add a torch for some burning spike if you feel you need it. It can hit upwards of 6k torment per second on a running target while also having a ranged cripple, stun, daze and pull and practically perma 30% combat move speed. As I said, it will be hard to run from. I happened to link a scepter only mainhand but toss a staff in there as well if you want since both are condi but one punishes ppl that stay and one punishes ppl that run.

Oversimplifed but 25 bleeds+burning vs 25 torment on a moving target, the torment does ~20% more damage so no, staff clones are not necessarily stronger.

Again, I’m not saying it’s OP. It’s a strong buff though. I think it’s too easy to pull off. People will complain and I foresee nerfs happening. I would prefer a more elegant buff to scepter but I think this is saddly the best we will get.

even with a full team of condi pu mesmers.. do you think you will see 25 stacks of torment on anyone??

a staff clones with ie will actually be able to put 25 stacks of bleed on a target.

so you need to look at what the weapons can do and then compare that to the other weapon.. not compare the conditions 1 for 1 when there is no way to stack them at the same rate.

zaxon.6819:

even with a full team of condi pu mesmers.. do you think you will see 25 stacks of torment on anyone??

a staff clones with ie will actually be able to put 25 stacks of bleed on a target.

so you need to look at what the weapons can do and then compare that to the other weapon.. not compare the conditions 1 for 1 when there is no way to stack them at the same rate.

Shadowcat.4397:

With staff clons you will have less torment, but u get burning(that do more dmg then tormen), bleeding(that do more dmg then tormen), and Vulnerability.

DuckDuckBOOM.4097:

Oversimplifed but 25 bleeds+burning vs 25 torment on a moving target, the torment does ~20% more damage so no, staff clones are not necessarily stronger.

DuckDuckBOOM.4097:

At first glance, a 2.5 second and 4 second base torment sounded really OP to me but I realized I was thinking too much with Runes of torment/koi cakes etc for 100% torment duration. In PvP, I think it’s actually fine for the scepter and any non PU build would rightfully deserve some buff to scepter auto.

Seriously, is reading comprehension that hard? The 25 stacks is for WvW and PvE. Yes, people can use condi removal and -condi duration food but not everyone does.

With the Sc2 having 100% buff to duration of 16 seconds and IF the trait CD worked on them, a 7-10 second CD would be able to fluctuate between 5,10,15 stacks. Then add the clones (~7) and auto attacks (~3) and rune procs (2).

Nowhere did I say that the staff is now useless.

As for your silly scenario, an enemy puts down an AOE that can hit 5 targets. 5 mesmers Sc2 -> 25 stacks of torment. >_>

Fay.2357:

vincecontix.1264:

Except PU condition memser is more faceroll than just about everything you listed with about highest survivability of any spec. Something that is easy to play should not become meta even with out pu condition mesmer is still very strong. They can have the torment on auto but should not have pu and the same time. It should be made a trait so mesmer would have to choose.

I’m curious, why are you so worried about torment when many people have shown mathematically that staff clones do significantly higher damage with far greater reliability?

Because scepter/x has better overall condi output than staff. Staff condis come (almost) entirely from clones/AA. On scepter/x, just about every skill can apply some sort of condi, and now the torment on AA pushes its condi output over the top.

That and the fact that many PU builds use both scepter/x and staff. Before, if you swapped a scepter clone for a staff clone, you lost some decent dps. Not so anymore.

The amount of people that don’t realize that this change is creating a giant metastic tumor in GW2 is making me want to cut myself.

I say yes.

I really like what torment and confusion can do combined, like making a decent block with scepter 2 and then stacking confusion on top of it. The AA really needed to be looked at, it will allow to mantain pressure (which is what condi is all about).

That said, 2 out of 3 attacks applying torment does sound like much, but maybe it is evened out by the scepter remaining a slow clumsy weapon. We have to try and see.

i don’t want to enter a discussion but:
To begin with, the mesmer is a (what you call)meta class.
you played this game since so long time, and you don’t know that?
for each weapon 2 skills call (Meta) clone/phantasm

your crying is the cancer.

Stab clone was dealing Condition, it never bothers you. You are just afraid of change.
Scepter clone dealing condition won’t change that much. it changes things yes, but not that much for people to cry as death.

You should more worry about Illusion elasticity.

Most of cries are from people, being happy to easily run away from scepter mesmer or don’t attack until they use the block up.
Cry because now they will be under pressure of death.

Stop being that child.

Seyiwaji.4082:

i don’t want to enter a discussion but:
To begin with, the mesmer is a (what you call)meta class.
you played this game since so long time, and you don’t know that?
for each weapon 2 skills call (Meta) clone/phantasm

I figured he means that Mesmers are already part of the current top end meta setups, when well, our problem is exactly that we’re not, in no game mode.
But even then, I doubt I’m getting this right. I mean… the fourth line makes no sense in that case.

Seyiwaji.4082:

your crying is the cancer.

So if I make Chaos stop crying I cured cancer? kitten , never been this easy, not even in Saints Row IV.

Seyiwaji.4082:

Stab clone was dealing Condition, it never bothers you. You are just afraid of change.

I know english isn’t your main language (not mine, either :P ) but in the context of these discussions (in general, not for this specific change), “condition” means damaging conditions.

TBH I think the concern about PU mes becomming OP after this change is without merit. Scepter 1 is still slow to cast with a slow projectile, at best scepter clones might be about as dangerous as staff clones now. Not a bad thing IMO.

Also: Unless I missed a memo, there is no buff incoming for iMage, so PU with scepter/torch is still going to be kitten DPS compared to other weap/builds with legit phantasms. In the long run I expect more tears from the new iLeap.

Having the scepter apply torment is one thing, however having the clones apply it may be a bit too strong.

If they were to make the second attack apply 2 stacks of torment for 4 seconds then make the third apply 1 stack of confusion for 3 seconds then remove the torment from the first so clones could not apply it then it would be fine.

The real problem with it is that since clones can apply it it will end up stacking extremely fast meaning that any condition removal will be more or less useless.

The pressure this spec is going to give, will give so much room for passive defense that you practically don’t use any “Mesmer” mechanics. So here’s your chance to finally play mesmer without having to worry about losing or dying!!

Here I will create a guide for you, so you can watch movies while winning 1v1’s:

• Take Scepter / Torch
• Take some funny defensive amulet
• Take PU
• Take preferred signets and decoy (including Signet of the Ether) for max passiveness

Okay now we’re set up.

1. Spam 1 for clone creation and torment
2. Let your target follow you and die, or let him stand there facetanking conditions
3. Use optional skills to gain stealth if you feel like doing something special
4. Destroy the pride of mesmer