Guild Wars 2

Near the end of Beta, we were promised that the Mesmer’s traits will undergo polish and overhaul. By the time Beta ended, only one change: the addition of Mirror of Anguish: was implemented.

Since then we have had a few changes to Mesmer traits, but nothing that can be called an “overhaul”. In general, our traits are still quite unpolished, and many are simply not worth using.

Below are my suggestions on how the Mesmer’s traits could be polished. It may appear almost all of my suggestions are “buffs”: note however that I generally do not suggest changes for popular traits, as my goal is to increase build diversity, not to empower the established builds.

if devs have a ton of extra time i would say go for changing upgrading traits.. as a matter of priority i would say fix all the bugs way before focusing on this.

I agree with most of the conceptual changes. There really are several traits in odd places or ones that are obviously intended for beta clones or phants. Not likely to happen, tho. At least not until an expansion…. maybe. Even then probably not. There are also a few traits that could use a slight nerf you seemed to overlook.

This thread seems appropriate because it is a Trait that needs clarification more than anything. Wastrel’s Punishment the grand master tier in Domination, 5% more damage to inactive foes. Sooooo I do more damage to someone who’s AFK? or does it mean stunned and dazed? Even then that is only 1 second, not even close to being worth the grand master tier.

Inactive means not casting anything. So whenever you hit an enemy that isn’t casting a skill at that moment, they take 5% extra direct damage.

These are all great suggestions and totally agree that things need an overhaul!

I’d welcome any changes that would give us some more build diversity. Currently, very few traits are so strong that they are considered the cornerstone of entire builds (illusionary persona for example), but most of them just don’t do anything useful, ever.

And personally, I think that instead of slightly buffing the ones that are just not good enough, what we should strive for are more of those that really turn around your way of playing.

As an example:

• Illusionary Elasticity is a grandmaster trait now, and it now affects clones.
  (Bam. Condition mesmers just got viable. Maybe too good even, it could actually be decently balanced if the projectile only bounces off you like it does currently, but I digress)
• Frenzied Summoning (or whatever, New Grandmaster trait in Illusions): Summoning an Illusion when you are at the limit already (i.e. when it would just “pop” normally) shaves 1 second off your mindwrack cooldown. Scepter got a good bit closer to being viable again, provided they would finally figure out a way to make scepter clones not spawn in melee range…
• Masterful Reflection now affects blurred frenzy.
• Confusing Enchantments now applies confusion once per second instead.
• …

However, even Colin acknowledged that there only is a comparatively small subset of traits that are competitive, and how they see this as a problem, but we haven’t seen any substantial changes at all since release. Mostly some bugfixes and nerfs, but nothing that mechanically changes what all those underpowered traits do, so I wouldn’t get my hopes up…

At least they have acknowledged the problem, as opposed to the glaring problems (e.g. +duration having no effect on Illusions, underwater skills 2x speed) that were never even acknowledged.

If you look closely, it becomes obvious that many traits were designed for a Mesmer with more interrupts. In Beta times, GS #3 for instance, was a single target daze if I remember correctly. Even the 6 piece bonus of the Mesmer rune has daze duration, which is not a very desirable bonus for Mesmers as of now.

In any case, I don’t really desire having more dazes unless combat evolves in a direction where you can make conscious decisions whether to interrupt something or not (the same is true for dodging btw, which is mostly done after the maxim “looks like a good time to dodge now, I guess”)

Xolo.3580:

If you look closely, it becomes obvious that many traits were designed for a Mesmer with more interrupts. In Beta times, GS #3 for instance, was a single target daze if I remember correctly. Even the 6 piece bonus of the Mesmer rune has daze duration, which is not a very desirable bonus for Mesmers as of now.

In any case, I don’t really desire having more dazes unless combat evolves in a direction where you can make conscious decisions whether to interrupt something or not (the same is true for dodging btw, which is mostly done after the maxim “looks like a good time to dodge now, I guess”)

This is actually really useful information. I didn’t play beta, so I missed out on some of this daze action. As things stand, I currently rely on confusion quite a bit. Why would I want to daze a target I just stacked confusion on? It seems counterintuitive. Because of this, I very rarely use Diversion or other daze abilities.

Note: I play mostly WvW where confusion is much stronger. Daze seems to be a bit more effective in PvE.

Those are some great ideas Embolism! I think that if the devs have a chance, they should try and implement them! However, I do think that Flash Revelation would be a bit overpowered (assuming I’m reading it correctly) and would need to be toned down. Just imagine, a full shatter burst, done from range, with almost no window for dodging. Now imagine that combined with abilities that allow for instant recharge on shatter skills. Mesmers would be almost unstoppable.

Hi,
Nice to have thought about some changes. It’s also nice to see that those are thought of, and not “please buff me so that I’m OP”.
I find a lot of good ideas, but some points I’d like to make :

Blurred Inscriptions
Activating a Signet grants you 2 seconds of Distortion.

Hmmm. I think that would be too much. I’d rather see a buff to signets themselves, whether on their effect or CD. Plus it could be OP while playing with MH S and 3 signets (woot perma invuln), at least quite frustrating for the opponent and Anet does not want this. I know if the mesmer does this, then he’s completely kittened, but I don’t agree with you on this.

Bountiful Transmutation
NEW Gransmaster. Whenever you cleanse conditions, they are converted into boons instead.

Now that would be great ! There would finally be a reason to get 30 points in chaos (absolutely no reason atm since grandmaster traits are garbage). I don’t know if this could be OP with Nullfield though. But very interesting !

Temporal Enchanter
Glamour skills last 50% longer.

Actually, I’d rather see something like guardian has : merge 2 traits with CD 20% and duration improved. Would be a master trait.

Flash Revelation
NEW Grandmaster. Shatter skills instantly hit their targets.

Not sure of this … I would definitely agree for diversion for instance, but the other 2 … I don’t think so, the burst potential could be too important I think and we would suffer massive nerfs elsewhere.

@OP
You reminded me of those things ANet said. I completely forgot them til now.

@suggestions
There’s a suggestion section …

As an active mantra user, I have to say, that your “protective mantras” is just too strong. Sure, the mantra casting needs a tiny tweek (in some situations you’re knocked down every 3s which completely prevents you to heal), but perm stability is just too much. In alot jumping puzzles (and other occasions) you’d abuse mantra of pain as your stability source. And if you actively use multiple mantras, it’s … imba.
Personaly, I’d change this trait (or add another) to either “allows you to [dodge] while channeling mantras” or “gain 3.25s aegis when channeling mantras”.

@suggestions2
we need a worthy grandmaster in [Inspiration] line. Like … “heal a small amount when an illusion dies or is shattered” instead of the 1k heal when shatter (1k per shatter, not per illusion)

The idea behind Flash Revelation is that it is an alternative to Illusionary Persona: you must choose between greatly increasing the potency of your Shatters or having your Shatters be reliable. For many builds that do melee burst Shatters Flash Revelation probably adds nothing and they’re far better off with Illusionary Persona.

It’s essentially ranged vs melee, if you will.

Certain Signets certainly need buffs (e.g. Signet of Midnight), but this isn’t about skills. I’m counting on Signets mostly staying as they are for this buff to Blurred Inscriptions: SoD stuns the target for 2s so Blurred Inscriptions adds little in a duel, the two SoIs have very specific effects that must be used at the right time or are useless, and SoM… is actually probably the best Signet to use with this trait, which is just as well because it’s the worst Signet.

All in all though, if it is a problem maybe Blurred Inscriptions could become Grandmaster and Furious Interruption (lol trait) dropped down to Master.

I had thought about integrating Temporal Enchanter and Glamour Mastery, and I can see Anet doing that once they get around to polishing the Mesmer’s traits (if they ever get around to it).

Restorative Illusions is actually not too bad, it can amount to quite a bit of healing for frequent Shatterers. Shattered Conditions is likewise a great trait. The problem with Inspiration is that almost all Mesmer builds sink points into Illusions and Dueling, leaving little for other lines.

IMO this is also a problem that needs addressing, these “compulsory” traits, but that would require rather drastic changes.

Personaly, I’d change this trait (or add another) to either “allows you to [dodge] while channeling mantras” or “gain 3.25s aegis when channeling mantras

Aegis while channeling Mantras is actually very interesting.

Ah yes, regarding Protected Mantras: I personally don’t see why it would be overpowered, since you can barely do anything else while channelling a Mantra; and the way I suggested it you cannot really cancel-cast to abuse its effects.

Yes it could be helpful in situations where you might not want/need to do anything else, like when doing jumping puzzles or running away from enemies, but seriously: does the former really matter? And for the latter, well, I wouldn’t mind getting a little help running away from zergs… given our non-combat mobility it would be nice.

In any case it’s a niche trait in a niche build, I do think it needs to do something pretty good for it to be worth taking up. Aegis only blocks a single hit, and while that could make a difference I personally wouldn’t waste a trait slot for it… given that when channelling, I’d either be untouchable (cloaked, Distorted, out of LoS) or likely to take multiple hits.

would be nice to see the “old” trait description so that everybody can see and weigh the suggested changes more easily.

That’s easily done. Also added the suggestion of making Blurred Inscription GM, if buffed; and Furious Interruption Master instead. Interrupt traits in general still have a long way to go before anyone would take them though.

I really like a lot of these suggestions, however I too oppose the Flash Revelation idea.

Shatter skills are some of the best designed skills in the game from a PvP perspective because of the way the salience of the cue scales with the impact of the skill. When one clone is charging towards you, it’s easy to mistake it for an illusion trying to get in range for an auto attack. When 3 illusions are converging on your location you may as well play a siren – it is time to dodge. Failure to respond to this cue severely punishes you when we’re talking Mind Wrack.

If I understand your idea correctly, Flash Revelation just deletes all that. It would be insanely overpowered without a severe nerf to Mind Wrack’s damage.

Now moving onto the topic of Imbued Diversion, I’d like to point out this trait isn’t totally trash. Now before you switch off, I’m not saying I don’t want it changed (compared to IP it’s just trash), but it does have it’s niche. When combined with Dazzling and Rending Shatter, ID allows large stacks of AoE vulnerability to be churned out whilst dazing everybody which can be devastating in AoE teams.

The problem, IMO, is ID is a team fight orientated trait… where illusions are notoriously fragile. Diversion’s daze doesn’t stack, so you’re investing 30 points for a 1 second AoE daze… Well I think we can all agree that was totally worth the investment.

I would add a clause to ID which simply allows Diversion’s daze to stack (well I say simply, I don’t know how much of a programming issue that would cause). What does this achieve? First, ID becomes useful in 1v1s and is actually a somewhat attractive alternative to IP. You trade instant shatters for up to 3 whole seconds of CC if the foe does not react to that 3 illusion convergence siren screaming “DODGE!!” Second, it makes shattering more than one illusion with Diversion no longer feel like a waste. Third, it makes ID insanely powerful in team fights. Too powerful? I would argue no. Illusions are fragile and die quickly in big fights. If you can successfully pull off a 3 illusion shatter I think you deserve to get a lengthy AoE daze on a 34s cooldown with the investment of a grandmaster trait in a line which offers nothing to help illusions survive. Also, the whole duration can be removed with a single stun break.

Edit: Obviously this would be quite OP in combination with some of your other changes :p

I know people would be opposed to Flash Revelation on principle, but consider how it compares to IP. The most devastating Mesmer burst combines Blurred Frenzy, Mirror Images and point-blank Shatters. Since it’s point-blank, your Shatters are pretty much instant anyway; so it’s not very useful. IP on the other hand would greatly increase your Shatter damage.

In other words, Flash Revelation doesn’t increase the maximum burst damage a Mesmer can do, in fact taking it would decrease your burst.

What I’m trying to say is that Flash Revelation, by itself, may seem powerful; but you must compare it to IP, as you can only have one or the other. Do you want more powerful Shatters, or do you want more reliable Shatters? By taking Flash Revelation, you are essentially sacrificing damage from Mind Wrack and CoF and losing on-demand Distortion and increased Distortion uptime.

Your suggested change to Imbued Diversion is nice, but would you take it instead of IP? I wouldn’t, even just looking at Diversion I think I’d prefer an on-demand PbAoE interrupt rather than an unreliable AoE Daze, not to mention all the other benefits IP brings.

Embolism.8106:

Ah yes, regarding Protected Mantras: I personally don’t see why it would be overpowered, since you can barely do anything else while channelling a Mantra; and the way I suggested it you cannot really cancel-cast to abuse its effects.

Yes it could be helpful in situations where you might not want/need to do anything else, like when doing jumping puzzles or running away from enemies, but seriously: does the former really matter? And for the latter, well, I wouldn’t mind getting a little help running away from zergs… given our non-combat mobility it would be nice.

In any case it’s a niche trait in a niche build, I do think it needs to do something pretty good for it to be worth taking up. Aegis only blocks a single hit, and while that could make a difference I personally wouldn’t waste a trait slot for it… given that when channelling, I’d either be untouchable (cloaked, Distorted, out of LoS) or likely to take multiple hits.

Giving replenishing Protection AND Stability is pretty strong. Especially since you could use if permanently with a single mantra (and alot timing). Or simply using MoP as autoattack would grant you both boons almost constantly while still dealing some damage.
Giving either of those boons would be strong enough, while Protection only wouldn’t help from interrupts.
If I failed to cast Healing mantra twice (5s hit frequency from boss with 2s knockdown), I need to sacrifice my [Blink] for a successful heal (since mirror images arely prevents interrupts). As staff user you could use [Retreat], too.

If you’d get Aegis (once) for that time, you’d have ONE additional chance. An observing enemy could bypass it (with attack and then interrupt) and you could use it to block slow projectiles. I’d like to test an Aegis version, but it might be too weak or too strong.

Being able to do a no-travel-time shatter is extremely powerful. While you make the excellent point that the highest mesmer burst is in melee range, such a trait would allow massive burst from shatter/instant confusion from maximum range while being impossible to predict, which is the issue. Shatters hit very hard, but are difficult to land since the clones run so slowly and predictably, but you can do more damage by going closer, which also puts you in more danger. A trait like this messes up the risk-reward ratio.

Maybe you could change the trait to ‘Clones move X% faster when being shattered’?

Embolism.8106:

Do you want more powerful Shatters, or do you want more reliable Shatters?

Then why don’t we, dare I say it, nerf IP by splitting its functionality?

Imbued Shatter – exact same effect as IP, but only activates if you have an illusion active. In other words, this trait gives you a free clone.

Illusionary Persona – exact same effect as IP, but only activates if you don’t have an illusion active. In other words, this trait gives you a free shatter.

Regarding Protected Mantras:

If you use MoP as an autoattack your DPS would be quite low. I doubt you would out DPS your opponent even if you have 75% uptime on Protection. If you really believe it is OP then perhaps it could grant just Stability, or perhaps the entire effect could be on a10s CD? What do you think?

A one time Aegis just doesn’t seem worth it at all, your opponent doesn’t even need to watch out for it most of the time as chances are you’d be hit by an autoattack or something before they hit you with an interrupt.

Regarding Flash Revelation:

If people feel it is too OP despite having to sacrifice Illusionary Persona to get it, then perhaps instead of being instant it would cause your Illusions to Shatter into glass shards that fly quickly at the enemy. Would make it far more reliable without it being completely unforeseeable.

Nerfing Illusionary Persona could be done, but it would be difficult to do it without changing it altogether. Your suggestion basically just prevents IP from affecting Diversion and gives us another useless trait that no one would take.

Regarding other stuff:

I was thinking that Deceptive Evasion might be worth bringing down to Adept level and given say a 10s CD, the reasoning being that it is pretty much an essential trait for most Mesmers. I feel that the Mesmer has too many essential traits that really locks up our trait points and restricts diversity. What do people think?

Embolism.8106:

Regarding Protected Mantras:

If you use MoP as an autoattack your DPS would be quite low. I doubt you would out DPS your opponent even if you have 75% uptime on Protection. If you really believe it is OP then perhaps it could grant just Stability, or perhaps the entire effect could be on a10s CD? What do you think?

this sure would change things. It’d still give you the possitility of 3.25s + 2s stability, but that’s still far less than others classes.

Embolism.8106:

I was thinking that Deceptive Evasion might be worth bringing down to Adept level and given say a 10s CD, the reasoning being that it is pretty much an essential trait for most Mesmers. I feel that the Mesmer has too many essential traits that really locks up our trait points and restricts diversity. What do people think?

do not. Leave [Deceptive Evasion] as it is. Personally, I’d have no problem with making it a Grandmaster trait (be honest, it IS strong), but don’t give it a CD. I’d prefer other traits (other cls’) to behave the same way.

The problem is the Mesmer does need Clone generation outside of weapon and utility skills, otherwise it simply isn’t enough between Shatters and Clones dying to other reasons. Moving it to GM would be exactly the wrong way to go about it, further restricting build diversity. The idea is so that we don’t have to invest as many points for improved Clone generation while at the same time bringing it down to a level that is less abusable for chain Shattering.

Deceptive Evasion is not an essential trait. It’s just very good for shatter/clone spam builds, which is the most common current build.

Back when everyone and their brother ran phantasm army, Empowered Illusions and Sharper Images were critical picks (not to mention 15/15 Chaos/Insp).

Not a big deal.

It’s not hard to maintain full 3-illusion shatters on Mind Wrack cooldown without DE. You just have to time your abilities well. DE enables you to execute full 3x MWs along with full Cries and bonus Diversions / Distortions.

DE is good, but it’s a crutch and a bit overrated. When the flavor of the month changes to a non-IP shatter build (and non clone spam), DE will be a less popular.

EasymodeX.4062:

Deceptive Evasion is not an essential trait. It’s just very good for shatter/clone spam builds, which is the most common current build.

Back when everyone and their brother ran phantasm army, Empowered Illusions and Sharper Images were critical picks (not to mention 15/15 Chaos/Insp).

Not a big deal.

When taking Deceptive Evasion is optimal in most cases, that is pretty much an essential trait. That’s why I want to suggest weakening it so it is not as abusable while moving it down a tier so builds that need extra Clone generation (most builds) have 10 extra points to play with, encouraging more diverse builds.

More Clone generation traits (properly balanced of course) might not go astray either. Maybe Temporal Enchanter could be combined into Glamour Mastery and a new trait for Clone generation be placed in Inspiration.

It’s only optimal for IP shatter and clone spam/on-death builds.

It’s not optimal for Ret Tank, Mantra support, Mantra dps 30/30, glamour spam builds, other random hybrid Inspiration heavy builds, etc.

Your perception of “most” is skewed towards fotm IP shatter builds.

EasymodeX.4062:

It’s only optimal for IP shatter and clone spam/on-death builds.

It’s not optimal for Ret Tank, Mantra support, Mantra dps 30/30, glamour spam builds, other random hybrid Inspiration heavy builds, etc.

Your perception of “most” is skewed towards fotm IP shatter builds.

I’m thinking of the two primary builds: Shatter and Condition. All other builds are, let’s face it, comparatively rare and generally aren’t as well-rounded.

Mantra builds are very niche and rare, although I’d like to point out that every Mantra build I’ve seen and used (that isn’t a healer) use Deceptive Evasion instead of Mantra Mastery. Mantras already have short CDs and being able to churn out Clones for a superpowered Mind Wrack is far more useful.

The only reason Glamour builds don’t take DE is because they’re forced to sink 20 points into Domination for Confusing Enchantments (which I’d like to address by combining it into Dazzling Glamours), which really hurts their 1vs1 effectiveness (already reduced by the lack of IE and possibly Chaotic Dampening).

Retaliation Tank is probably the only valid build that won’t benefit greatly from DE, although that’s not to say it won’t benefit at all: it still, after all, relies on Mind Wrack for what burst damage it can get out, not to mention CoF for Retaliation.

Stating that “the build uses Mind Wrack, hence DE” is a rather poor line of reasoning. As I said before, a naked Mesmer can maintain sufficient illusions to 3x MW on cooldown. E.g. any build can churn our clones for a superpowered Mind Wrack -or- Cry. DE is only required if you want both (or 3x Diversion into 3x MW), or fast 1x Distortion / Diversions.

All other builds are, let’s face it, comparatively rare and generally aren’t as well-rounded.

“All”, like Glamour and Ret Tank? Right. While Mantra and support builds are both uncommon, glamour is relatively popular in WvW considering how many stacks of confusion I pick up when I walk through any Feedback on the battlefield nowadays, and the Ret Tank build seems like a good candidate for flavor-of-next-month, since everyone likes not dying.

The only reason Glamour builds don’t take DE is because they’re forced to sink 20 points into Domination for Confusing Enchantments

If I had an extra 20 points for no reason in a Glamour build, I would plug them into Chaos for Staff cooldowns and/or GM traits in Inspiration or Illusion. The build doesn’t rely on mass shatters or on-death clones. Also, the gearing is neutral to precision, so Sharper Images isn’t any sort of priority in general.

There’s no question that DE is potent, but it’s only essential for builds that F1-F4 all the time, or intentionally flood clones, which are both not surprising.

Glamour builds are a subset of condition builds, which are themselves already relatively uncommon compared to Shatter builds. Glamour Confusion itself is really quite lacking if it weren’t for it being AoE (and enemies being stupid): in a duel Glamour Mesmers are much weaker than conventional condition Mesmers.

20 points in Dueling (and using Rabid gear) is the best way to maximise your fighting strength. Chaotic Dampening is good, but when it comes down to it it simply shaves a few seconds off defensive CDs; compared to greatly enhanced Clone generation and DPS and permanent Vigour? I don’t really think it’s competition.

As for Inspiration and Illusion GM traits… the two Inspiration GM are, again, nice, but I don’t think they compare to the benefits of 20 Dueling. Illusions… eh, Glamour builds already put 30 in Illusions, what are you on about…?

Regarding Mantra builds, seriously; if you’re going for DPS Mantra you primary goal is burst. If you don’t take DE what else are you going to take? And it’s not just about getting enough Clones out, it’s about getting those Clones out fast. You should know how important that is, especially if someone is AoEing down Clones.

A Mantra DPS build with Deceptive Evasion is more effective than one without. What other trait would you take that would make you just as effective? Mantra Mastery? Given the low CD of Mantras and the fact that it doesn’t take into account the channel time, I don’t think it’s very important.

As for Inspiration and Illusion GM traits… the two Inspiration GM are, again, nice, but I don’t think they compare to the benefits of 20 Dueling. Illusions… eh, Glamour builds already put 30 in Illusions, what are you on about…?

1. You don’t go 30 Insp for the GM traits, you go there to get multiple Adept/Master traits.

2. I generally disagree with Glamours being a ‘subset’ of condition builds. You may as well call IP shatter builds a subset of “power builds” — right along with phantasm army, Mantra 30/30, and every other build under the sun. But, it’s not something worth debating to any significant extent.

3. 20/0/0/30/20 is a valid alternative glamour-centric build. Hence finishing “Insp OR Illu”, e.g. whichever the player doesn’t have.

Regarding Mantra builds, seriously; if you’re going for DPS Mantra you primary goal is burst. If you don’t take DE what else are you going to take? And it’s not just about getting enough Clones out, it’s about getting those Clones out fast. You should know how important that is, especially if someone is AoEing down Clones.

You only need to get clones out fast every ~13 seconds. Ironically, Mirror Blade has a 4.8s cooldown and iB has a ~13s cooldown or w/e it was. Due the projectile delay of MB, both illusions summon at almost the same time. After a ~1 second delay for iB to do its thing, you can shatter immediately for a 2x shatter on demand with very little response by the opponent. Throwing in another illusion through any other means (prior MB, swap to iLeap, or swap to iWarden) will upgrade it to a 3×. Note that a 2x shatters is plenty good for a 30/30 Mantra build, since it will crit for >10k with glass gear.

I only use DE in a 30/30 when I plan on doing PvE (free tanking), or very heavy skirmishing with a low # of players (e.g. I plan to be soloing a supply camp when enemies inc). Otherwise, Mantra cooldowns are better, or Duelist’s Discpline with a Pistol OH.

Given the low CD of Mantras and the fact that it doesn’t take into account the channel time, I don’t think it’s very important.

It is equally useful to DE in general, and moreso for various situations where fast Diversions / Distortions are not in high demand.

i agree but before doing anything to mesmer traits they should delete 98.9998% of ranger traits and build new ones that don’t royally suck

EasymodeX.4062:

1. You don’t go 30 Insp for the GM traits, you go there to get multiple Adept/Master traits.

Except you said “for GM traits”… you already have Glamour Mastery of course, what other Inspiration trait are you looking to take that is more useful? Warden’s Feedback? It’s good but somewhat situational, and not very useful in siege situations.

I might add however that I already use 20 Inspiration and Warden’s Feedback in my Glamour builds.

EasymodeX.4062:

2. I generally disagree with Glamours being a ‘subset’ of condition builds. You may as well call IP shatter builds a subset of “power builds” — right along with phantasm army, Mantra 30/30, and every other build under the sun. But, it’s not something worth debating to any significant extent.

I consider them a subset because outside of throwing down Glamours in group situations, they play similarly to condition builds; using, well, conditions to deal damage. Except they don’t have the crucial tools conventional condition Mesmers have to do well in small fights.

EasymodeX.4062:

3. 20/0/0/30/20 is a valid alternative glamour-centric build. Hence finishing “Insp OR Illu”, e.g. whichever the player doesn’t have.

Without 30 Illusions you cannot get Blinding Befuddlement and Dazzling Glamours. If I had to choose I’d rather sacrifice Confusing Enchantments than Dazzling Glamours given CE is more reliant on people being stupid (which, granted, is probably quite reliable in WvW…), plus I can drop 20 points there.

But really, one of the main selling points of Glamour builds is AoE Confusion, you’d be taking both traits… so 20/0/0/0/30 is basically the base if you want to maximise your group effectiveness.

EasymodeX.4062:

Note that a 2x shatters is plenty good for a 30/30 Mantra build, since it will crit for >10k with glass gear.

Well, if you want to suboptimise the burst of a build that already sacrifices a lot for more burst, by settling for just “plenty good”… I dunno, unless you really like Utility Mantras you’d probably get more burst (and more reliably, and often) with a conventional Shatter.

EasymodeX.4062:

It is equally useful to DE in general, and moreso for various situations where fast Diversions / Distortions are not in high demand.

You’d have to explain this to me. The ratio of MoRec and MoD’s CD to channel time means Mantra Mastery actually reduces their CDs by ~13/14%, MoP is unaffected, and MoC is really a rather weak Mantra. MoRes is great but, you know, it’s a condition cleanser. How is this better than rapid Clone generation and not caring (relatively) if your opponent AoE down Illusions?

After all this discussion though, don’t you think Deceptive Evasion is indeed too powerful a trait? Even if you don’t consider it “essential”, you cannot deny it almost always warrants very serious consideration. That’s why I’m suggesting it to be toned down and made more accessible, to reduce reliance (preferably with another option in Inspiration) and to reduce the locking of trait points.

I would contest the “new” IP would be useless, but this is a thread about your ideas If you want something that makes shatter hit more reliably, the best suggestion so far, IMO, is +move-speed when being shattered. You could tweak this a lot depending on the balance of the trait. For example, you could have protection, swiftness and stability granted to illusions when you command them to shatter.

Embolism.8106:

EasymodeX.4062:

It is equally useful to DE in general, and moreso for various situations where fast Diversions / Distortions are not in high demand.

You’d have to explain this to me. The ratio of MoRec and MoD’s CD to channel time means Mantra Mastery actually reduces their CDs by ~13/14%, MoP is unaffected, and MoC is really a rather weak Mantra. MoRes is great but, you know, it’s a condition cleanser. How is this better than rapid Clone generation and not caring (relatively) if your opponent AoE down Illusions?

Since I’m often the last man standing in my party (or like the tanker of gigantos), healing (and evading) is the most crucidal part of those situations. (I even plan to use the Runes of Water soon.) For ME, the CD reduction is irrelevant for any other mantra but healing mantra. Having 10s CD or 8s CD does make a difference. Sure, it effectively increases the healing per time by only ~14%, but it’s still +14% healing rate (and condition removal for me).
As a “versatile build”, I use this as GM slot (over additional damage).

But if I’d had to choose, I’d use DE over MM, indeed.

ChaosStar.3162:

I would contest the “new” IP would be useless, but this is a thread about your ideas If you want something that makes shatter hit more reliably, the best suggestion so far, IMO, is +move-speed when being shattered. You could tweak this a lot depending on the balance of the trait. For example, you could have protection, swiftness and stability granted to illusions when you command them to shatter.

Funny, this is already available in the game with Centaur runes, and it’s a strategy I use fairly often. But yes, a trait, even a GM trait, is quite a bit less investment than 6 runes. Also the passive effect would be nice since it wouldn’t require a heal.

Well, if you want to suboptimise the burst of a build that already sacrifices a lot for more burst, by settling for just “plenty good”… I dunno, unless you really like Utility Mantras you’d probably get more burst (and more reliably, and often) with a conventional Shatter.

You’re not getting it: more than half of a 30/30 build’s playtime is usually at range. The third clone (if you spawned one via DE) tends to not make it to the target. Even if it does, it’s delayed by ~2 seconds. Regardless of whether it makes it to the target or not, the presence of the third clone reduces the damage of the first 2 ‘guaranteed’ shatters.

Therefore it’s not even a consistent total benefit to DE a clone and throw it into the Mind Wrack mix, you’re likely to reduce the actual burst damage by a small amount — and you’re paying a trait slot for it?

If you’re skirmishing a lot in melee without disengage, then DE becomes more useful so you can sustain more types of shatters beyond MWs. Short of that … shrug? I swap it in to farm wolves to get my Bloodlust stacks up.

Note that a lot of my perspective on this assumed GS, which has basically the lowest cooldown clone generator. It would be a different story for other weapon sets.

After all this discussion though, don’t you think Deceptive Evasion is indeed too powerful a trait? Even if you don’t consider it “essential”, you cannot deny it almost always warrants very serious consideration.

Hard to say whether it’s ‘too powerful’. IP could be said to be too powerful. Sharper Images was “ALL THE RAGE” back at release. Warden’s Feedback is one of the most amazing single traits for utility. I’d say Warden’s Feedback is easily as ‘overpowered’ as DE or IP.

Furthermore, DE is pretty “meh” outside of combining it with IP, which is already 50 trait points allocated for DE to reach its “very powerful” point — ergo, mostly applicable to one build.

Bottom line is that DE is on the strong side of potency, but OP means it should be nerfed, and it doesn’t rise to that level IMO.

@ EasymodeX:

DE is not just used for IP, it is essential for Condition Mesmers too and would boost any build that Shatters often, IP or no. You seem to have the idea that I am “fixated” with IP Shatter builds, yet most of my posts on this forum make it rather clear that I almost exclusively run condition builds when I’m not experimenting.

Anyways, you cannot deny that most Mesmers play either Shatter (overwhelmingly) or condition, and both of these builds rely heavily on DE, and therefore most Mesmers do consider DE essential. If DE was made less potent as well as more accessible, perhaps we would see a breakup of this trend and encourage people to experiment with more traits. That is the idea behind the suggestion.

(SI was popular because iDuelist was OP back in Beta and everyone loved the GS, Warden’s Feedback is a niche and situational trait: powerful, but hardly the staple of most builds. I’d definitely say IP is too powerful, but it’s hard to “nerf” it without changing it completely.)

@ ChaosStar:

Well, what about this GM trait then? Stole the name “Imbued Shattering” as I couldn’t think of anything else to describe it, heh.

(Updated the OP.)

(Also updated Protected Mantras, giving it a 10s CD and making it possible to cancel-abuse the effect if you desire… since it’s now on a CD anyway.)

Distortion on illusions would certainly make WvW interesting!

Now with regards to Imbued Diversion, I’d much rather see it merged rather than deleted all together. Deleting would mean Diversion is the only shatter without a trait buff and it does has good synergy with Domination orientated traits. It’s tricky to see where it would fit… I guess one option is to do the kind of consolidation we see in ele and guardian. Merge together Confusing Cry and Masterful Reflection, then Precise Wrack with Imbued Diversion. Thing is people already run most of these traits quite happily as they are…

If DE was made less potent as well as more accessible, perhaps we would see a breakup of this trend and encourage people to experiment with more traits. That is the idea behind the suggestion.

I don’t see a direct nerf to popular specs as a good direction tbh. The specs themselves aren’t really overpowered, and if they are it doesn’t seem to be directly attributable to DE.

Some very nice suggestions here. I don’t agree with all of them, but like most of them. I vaguely remember the devs saying something about addressing unused traits in the future for all professions someday.

Dear OP, you’re brilliant.

I THINK ABOUT THIS CHANGES EVERY SINGLE TIME I PLAY! ):

I hope Anet reads this thread. /pray

ChaosStar.3162:

Distortion on illusions would certainly make WvW interesting!

Now with regards to Imbued Diversion, I’d much rather see it merged rather than deleted all together. Deleting would mean Diversion is the only shatter without a trait buff and it does has good synergy with Domination orientated traits. It’s tricky to see where it would fit… I guess one option is to do the kind of consolidation we see in ele and guardian. Merge together Confusing Cry and Masterful Reflection, then Precise Wrack with Imbued Diversion. Thing is people already run most of these traits quite happily as they are…

I use masterful reflection. The problem with merging confusing cry and masterful reflection, the trait will OP.

Made a few more changes to the Inspiration line… Temporal Enchanter merged with Glamour Mastery as suggested, Persisting Images changed, and a new trait.

Regarding the thought about Diversion not having a trait without Imbued Diversion, Precise Wrack can always be dumped for a Diversion trait, seeing as Mind Wrack already has (a much more useful) one in Mental Torment.