Guild Wars 2

I am not one to kitten around on the forums but i feel that this last patch was too much. I am lvl 68 right now and i have not touched pvp at all. I really hated my char through the first 40 lvls but I found the mesmer more complex then any other class so i stuck with it. Now after the patch I find my class more like the horrible thing i had to play before “everything was suppose to get better”. Before I played GS and SW/SW i was able to keep 3 phantoms up in a fight if it was a good fight. Now with the longer cool downs i am extremely lucky to get three up if i target different mobs, this is with phantoms only. I hate shatter builds and yes i do shatter when i see my mob is almost dead but I wish we were not forced into it. The way i see it to let us have our phantoms till we are out of combat is you are going to give us the longer cd/ct.

Sorry if my post gave you cancer but spiderman will forgive me

First of all, you are about a week too late for this debate.

Having said that, may I suggest that if you were relying on phantasms to be a dps army for you, and a few more seconds is killing that plan, then you should roll a dps class, or learn how to play mesmer.

I’m a 46 mesmer and I honestly don’t see a difference running GS & S/S. I have 5 in Illusion and Blade Training. I don’t even have GS training yet and the timer is fine with me. I’ll agree about allowing phantasms to persist outside of a single fight though..

I dabbled in all the classes at first trying to see what “clicked” and it landed on mesmer for me, for whatever reason (cough…butterflies). To say you hated it for the first 40 levels, but stuck with it because it was complex…..just says to me you hate mesmers. I love mesmers. I havent even gotten to 40 yet, mainly because I keep restarting to get the look of my mesmer just right, because I Love Mesmers.

Play a class you’re happy with, and hopefully kind of good with, and don’t blame patches to a class you hated for 40 levels for making you suck.

I have to aggree, I’d like illusions in general to persist somehow. Especially in DE, they dont last a second as mobs are downed too fast.

The fact is phantasms now have cooldowns that exceed those of necro minions.

They should have the HP and aoe resistance to last just as long, and they should no longer be trivial to kill.

plasmacutter.2709:

The fact is phantasms now have cooldowns that exceed those of necro minions.

They should have the HP and aoe resistance to last just as long, and they should no longer be trivial to kill.

They aren’t necro minions. Mesmers aren’t necros. Adapt or roll necro.

You are hindering your own performance.

Let me make this very clear to you:
It is not the October 7th patch that is hindering your performance. Your play style and decisions are hindering your own performance by making that assumption.

You made an assumption that the most effective mesmers keep up 3 phantasms as much as possible.

I honestly do not know where you get that information from. Actually, I do know. I see a lot of people on these very forums proclaim that assumption. Some people even provide numbers in an attempt to prove the assumption is correct. I have two major points to show why it one of the most common errors among all mesmer players.

Debunking the Phantasm Army Playstyle

Skill Under-utilization

If you were to maintain 3 phantasms, the second you use an ability that summons a clone will overwrite a phantasm. That means you lock yourself out of a number of good skills.

On the GS you lose the high-damaging ability Mirror Blade, which not only summons a clone, but also grants you 3 stacks of Might every time the blade bounces back to you. And when I say high-damage, let’s compare numbers. In the Guild Wars 2 Wiki, the Berserker does base damage of 146 per hit. The Wiki’s Mirror Blade entry shows that the skill does 259 base damage per hit. On top of all that, it is a Projectile finisher.

On the sword, you lose the Illusionary Leap/Swap skill. You lose your gap-closer + 2 second immobilize, as well as two Leap Finishers.

If I really have to point out the significance of locking yourself out of those abilities, you definitely do not know how to play a mesmer.

Clone Underestimation

Every argument promoting the Phantasm Army playstyle involves several arguments dismissing the usefulness of clones. Clones do so little damage. Clones don’t last that long. Clones don’t distract the target well enough. Fair enough. But have you considered what kind of purpose they have?

When I play on my mesmer, my clones serve these following purposes:

• Shatter Fodder
• Non-Permanent Meat Shields to protect my phantasm
• Non-Permanent Meat Shields off me

If you ever noticed your phantasms getting 1-shot from a monster, a clone could have solved that for you.
If you ever noticed a large number of monsters going for your clothy behind, a clone could have solved that for you.
If you ever noticed your phantasms having a very long travel time for shattering, a clone could have solved that for you.

Clones don’t look good on paper. But we don’t play the game on paper, do we?
—————————————————————

That’s my rebuttal against those who use the 3 phantasm play style and complain about its effectiveness. There are more arguments, for sure, but they involve heavy theorycrafting and simulations which take a lot of time and effort, which I may look to program in the future. But these points should prove my point from before: you are hindering your own performance.

One more thing: The developers are not forcing you to play with shatters and clones. However, they designed the class with those mechanics in mind, and it is your choice not to follow their models.
If you think that using shatters and clones is “forcing” you into a certain build, you are wrong. You are wrong because you assume that skills not altered by traits are skills not worth using.

I suggest you do some research into how others play Greatsword/Sword+Sword mesmers. There are a couple of good guides out there, and one I can reccommend is Taugrim’s Greatsword/Sword+Pistol build, which has plenty of overlapping concepts.

It is late, and I grow weary of writing more. But I urge you to first learn the class as much as you can before you write to complain.

MrMacAndCheese.3907:

plasmacutter.2709:

The fact is phantasms now have cooldowns that exceed those of necro minions.

They should have the HP and aoe resistance to last just as long, and they should no longer be trivial to kill.

They aren’t necro minions. Mesmers aren’t necros. Adapt or roll necro.

No, they’re not necro minions. They’re much weaker than necro minions. Most of the time their attacks don’t get a chance to fire before they die.

And that’s the point.

They started with CD’s low enough for it not to matter. Now the cds for mesmer phantasms are just as high as necro minions, but necro minions provide more synergy, more power, more utility, and live longer.

It’s outrageous.

As for the arguments for clones.. i’ve tossed a mirror blade as an opener and had the mobs run right for me anyway.

Aggro is not a fixed construct in this game.

Yes, i know to shatter the moment illusions cap out and the phantasm is done unloading its first round, but half the time phantasms dont GET to unload their first round because they’re that fragile.

They should have enough resilience to unload their first round.. and if I choose to use phantasms to whittle my foes, they should have the resilience, barring someone focusing on actively killing them, to stay alive longer than an auto-attack or aoe. Blood fiend now has a lower cd than half the phantasms in our arsenal!

Tbh mesmers are still faceroll even with the illusion nerf lol. I havnt had any issues what so ever playing my mesmer in pvp or pve. Your illusions only attack once every 5seconds or so. If the only way you kno how to do damage with your mesmer is to mass illusions and hide you should just roll thief. its much easier to deal damage and dont have to worry about cooldowns getting in your way.

plasmacutter.2709:

No, they’re not necro minions. They’re much weaker than necro minions. Most of the time their attacks don’t get a chance to fire before they die.

And that’s the point.

Exactly. The point is, we’re not necros!
You can’t compare Phantasms to Minions because you also cannot compare Distortion to Death Shroud or Feedback to Lich Form or anything like that.
They’re two different classes, they can’t be compared in a vacuum at all.

I found the mesmer more complex then any other class so i stuck with it.

Try an Engineer with 4 kits. You really have no concept of what “complex” is until you do that. Right now you’re just playing a 3-string balalaika.

And the patch really wasn’t so bad. In fact, I would rank it as “pointless”. It really didn’t solve any issues or alleviate any concerns that people had with the class.

I haven’t touched PvP on mesmer yet, but I don’t notice the longer CD at all.

He is the same in PvE … bad. And a bit less hit and hide in sPvP.

plasmacutter.2709:

Now the cds for mesmer phantasms are just as high as necro minions, but necro minions provide more synergy, more power, more utility, and live longer.

It’s outrageous.

Yeah, shame that half of the time necro minions stay still and do nothing.
Play one or go read the necro forum.

600h On my mes (the only character i’ve been playing since launch) and its fine… I don’t do spvp but for dungeons/wvw/solo its fine

My confusion is, why with their system of being able to balance pve and pvp separately, they wouldn’t just make this a pvp change, but decided to make it a pve change as well.

Necro minions don’t start their CD until they die. They’re a utility option, like mantras, not a core class mechanic. They’re really quite different.

Keldrath.4735:

My confusion is, why with their system of being able to balance pve and pvp separately, they wouldn’t just make this a pvp change, but decided to make it a pve change as well.

That system from gw1 isn’t in gw2 because they don’t want players to have to learn two different sets of “rules.” Yet.

Effusion.4831:

Necro minions don’t start their CD until they die. They’re a utility option, like mantras, not a core class mechanic. They’re really quite different.

Keldrath.4735:

My confusion is, why with their system of being able to balance pve and pvp separately, they wouldn’t just make this a pvp change, but decided to make it a pve change as well.

That system from gw1 isn’t in gw2 because they don’t want players to have to learn two different sets of “rules.” Yet.

I’ve heard them say even pre launch that it is, and one example of it is the confusion mechanic.

I would hate to have to dig through the blogs and videos to find it again, but you can take me at my word that they said it or not.

Ah you are correct, confusion damage is calculated differently in spvp vs pve/WvW. I believe I’m still correct about why they’re not using the system to balance skills differently though.

Just have to comment on MrMacAndCheese’s attitude. Dude before you come here like you are the lord of all mesmers please get one to 80 before you tell someone to roll another class from your perch of infinite knowledge lol.

Im working on my 2nd lvl 80 mesmer cause I didnt like the particular race for tournaments an spvp. I still am discovering things about weapon combos and styles working together for better synergy.

Ord try every weapon with every combo. Get one level with each MH weapon an different offhands to get a feel of what you can get away with. Some people are wizards with GS, others make you look silly with a scepter. You might have just gotten in a rut with a weapon that doesnt suit your playstyle.

I myself never got used to, or enjoyed the GS but some swear by it.

Until I read this post I havent even noticed anything was ‘nerfed’ or toned down as I do not read patch notes nor care to cause my playstyle doesnt revolve around putting up max # of phantasms.

You are far better off using high dps styles to kill a mob/mobs rather than fiddling around trying to put up 3 phantasms. Cast phantasm first then pump out clones an high dps styles with whatever weapon you happen to use.

I myself am partial to Sword/Focus and Staff. Nothing I have an issue with except some champ mobs.

Trust me try leveling one level each with each type of mainhand weapon an experiment with offhand weapons an try different things chained together. You will stumble, as I did, upon a combo that suits what you want to do. And since your past the first 40 hell levels, everything from then on is gravy bud lol.

Aegis Fang.5394:

Just have to comment on MrMacAndCheese’s attitude. Dude before you come here like you are the lord of all mesmers please get one to 80 before you tell someone to roll another class from your perch of infinite knowledge lol.

And since your past the first 40 hell levels, everything from then on is gravy bud lol.

So I can’t have an educated opinion until I’m level 80? Well how’s this…I’ve played 5 mesmers to level 30, because I’m picky about my toon’s appearance to a fault. I’ve never had issues yet with the class. If the first 40 levels are “hell” then this will be lolcake. Thanks for the chuckle. Sorry I hurt your feelings, just kidding (not really).

MrMacAndCheese.3907:

Aegis Fang.5394:

Just have to comment on MrMacAndCheese’s attitude. Dude before you come here like you are the lord of all mesmers please get one to 80 before you tell someone to roll another class from your perch of infinite knowledge lol.

And since your past the first 40 hell levels, everything from then on is gravy bud lol.

So I can’t have an educated opinion until I’m level 80? Well how’s this…I’ve played 5 mesmers to level 30, because I’m picky about my toon’s appearance to a fault. I’ve never had issues yet with the class. If the first 40 levels are “hell” then this will be lolcake. Thanks for the chuckle. Sorry I hurt your feelings, just kidding (not really).

lol wow 5 whole mesmers not past 30. Well you sir are the one that Im coming to for advice when I have issues in tournaments an spvp. lol Your attitude is amazing for a guy who hasnt gotten a mesmer halfway to level 80. You didnt hurt my feelings scrub, I dont have any. Just bugs me when self proclaimed experts tell someone to roll another class cause they ‘suck’ when that knob hasnt even had to buy his 2nd tier training manual yet. lol

You didnt even give any advice. To be an elitist you have to be elite. You have the order wrong.

Just saying before you tell someone they suck, you might want to at least get the toon to top level otherwise you just look like a kitten that belongs on the WoW forums tbh.

Ord.9156:

I am not one to kitten around on the forums but i feel that this last patch was too much. I am lvl 68 right now and i have not touched pvp at all. I really hated my char through the first 40 lvls but I found the mesmer more complex then any other class so i stuck with it. Now after the patch I find my class more like the horrible thing i had to play before “everything was suppose to get better”.

To be clear, and on topic again, these were the OP’s statements that I replied to. In general, I do feel a little superior to ppl that cry about the mesmer being hard in PvE, because I do not think they are hard in PvE.

Notice he said “i have not touched pvp at all”. Notice I did not give any sPvP advice. Notice I did not proclaim myself anything. So ya….get over it.

lol you told him he sucked an roll another class. A guy that has a mesmer twice the level you have attained. You didnt give advice because you cannot give advice because quite frankly mesmers do not start to mature really until 40+ imo. Thats when you stop struggling and can play around with different things.

All the guy stated was that hes frustrated with what he saw as a nerf to likely the only playstyle he has used. My advice was to try different weapon combos an stop relying on worrying about getting 3 phantasms up, just throw up the one main phantasm an get some clones off while you using your high dps weapon styles. Thats far more efficient anyways.

Im sure as a total pro you probably have a different rotation you would follow to down, say a veteran mob. What weapon, rotation would you use MrM&C?

Staff, bring out clones, phantasm, run in circles. It’s really not hard. Chaos armor, drop chaos storm, run in circles, teleport out getting more chaos armor, maybe shatter illusions for fun, drop null field , tele out for more chaos armor, maybe drop feedback, tele out for more chaos armor. You get the idea. No more freebies.

I’m gonna go play the game now mk? I want to rush to 80 as fast as possible so I won’t be so stupid anymore, and then maybe you will like me and I can join your cool kids club.

hehe I wasnt in the cool kids club, just wanted to call you on your lame attitude that made you look like a tool when you barely have a toon that can use gear higher than blue. Had you offered that advice in your first reply you would have sounded like a helpful member of the mesmer community instead of a knob.

GL leveling my friend!

The patch really didn’t do anything to alter the phantasm playstyle in pve or pvp imo, unless we’re talking about long fights against dungeon bosses in which case yes, the added cooldown time will start to add up, assuming your phantasms die off on a regular basis (which they usually do).
Killing regular mobs in pve usually revolves around rapidly pulling out two phantasms through weapon swapping and then finishing the mob off with other attacks, and that hasn’t changed at all.
Same goes for pvp, where 2 phantasms and a clone are way more practical than 3 phantasms because of the large number of clone generating abilities we use, some of which will destroy a phantasm if you have 3 up.

It didn’t hurt that much. As others have stated 3 phantasms out at a time isn’t very efficient. Then again, neither is mesmer in pve… it doesn’t have trouble so much as other classes can do the same thing faster. The advantage is mesmer can deal with more difficult encounters easier. It’s worth the trade off if it fits your playstyle.

Effusion.4831:

That system from gw1 isn’t in gw2 because they don’t want players to have to learn two different sets of “rules.” Yet.

Considering Confusion works differently in sPvP from WvW and PvE, I highly doubt your statement. :P

Aegis Fang.5394:

lol you told him he sucked an roll another class. A guy that has a mesmer twice the level you have attained. You didnt give advice because you cannot give advice because quite frankly mesmers do not start to mature really until 40+ imo. Thats when you stop struggling and can play around with different things.

All the guy stated was that hes frustrated with what he saw as a nerf to likely the only playstyle he has used. My advice was to try different weapon combos an stop relying on worrying about getting 3 phantasms up, just throw up the one main phantasm an get some clones off while you using your high dps weapon styles. Thats far more efficient anyways.

Im sure as a total pro you probably have a different rotation you would follow to down, say a veteran mob. What weapon, rotation would you use MrM&C?

You seem to be somewhat misinformed. Most of mrmc’s statements were quite reasonable arguments. The first one dealt with the fact that a slight nerf to cooldowns will not make or break a build, especially one that is as strong as the phantasm build. Mesmers require a certain knack for rotating skills and phants in pve, and with that proper feeling, the nerf has no effect at all.

Other than that, mots of his statements were pointing out how the comparison between necro minions and phantasms is not viable at all, and this is completely accurate. Necro minions have cd counters that don’t start until they die (think ele summoned elementals), and the minions also do significantly less damage, and have generally less utility than the army of phantasms a mesmer can produce.

Never once did he attempt to give specific pvp or pve advice. As much as this makes his comments somewhat substanceless, it also means that your beef with his comments is completely without basis.

Carighan.6758:

Effusion.4831:

That system from gw1 isn’t in gw2 because they don’t want players to have to learn two different sets of “rules.” Yet.

Considering Confusion works differently in sPvP from WvW and PvE, I highly doubt your statement. :P

Confusion works exactly the same, the only difference is in damage scaling. There are no actual rules needed to be relearned, the concept is exactly the same: stack it high, and stack it fast.

Yes I know, and that’s the argument against separating the functionality or even numbers of abilities. The point I was trying to make was simply that code to differentiate how to handle an ability based on sPvP already exists, so there’s probably API calls in place to check for modifiers in real time.

I am against PvE/PvP splits, mind you.

Carighan.6758:

Yes I know, and that’s the argument against separating the functionality or even numbers of abilities. The point I was trying to make was simply that code to differentiate how to handle an ability based on sPvP already exists, so there’s probably API calls in place to check for modifiers in real time.

I am against PvE/PvP splits, mind you.

Why would you be against it? It’s one of the things I love most about the games design. It’s one of the many things Blizzard NEVER got right with WoW. It’s never fun to play a game where one side of the game always wags the tail of the other side. I don’t like playing a game where PvP design decisions dictate what goes on in PvE and vice versa.