Guild Wars 2

Hi, After reading the changes on minion in PvE, I’m interested in exploring this class for pve.

I know mesmer’s dps is tied on how many phantasm/illusions you can keep alive (that’s what fending me off until now). Where is mesmer position in dps rank in a good situation where you can keep most of your phantasm?

Mes is a utility bot, no point in ranking dps. DPS varies from solo to group comp too much so there’s another reason to not rank. Furthermore, DPS does not decide how useful a class is in raids.

If your focus is still DPS then you can forget playing as mesmer.

Ok.. Fair enough

frifox.5283:

Mes is a utility bot, no point in ranking dps. DPS varies from solo to group comp too much so there’s another reason to not rank. Furthermore, DPS does not decide how useful a class is in raids.

If your focus is still DPS then you can forget playing as mesmer.

There’s no way to know that for sure. With the changes to minion damage incoming and our phantasms actually staying alive now, there’s no reason we won’t see a huge dps increase.

Zeppelin.6832:

frifox.5283:

Mes is a utility bot, no point in ranking dps. DPS varies from solo to group comp too much so there’s another reason to not rank. Furthermore, DPS does not decide how useful a class is in raids.

If your focus is still DPS then you can forget playing as mesmer.

There’s no way to know that for sure. With the changes to minion damage incoming and our phantasms actually staying alive now, there’s no reason we won’t see a huge dps increase.

We will see a dps increase…but even 100% best case scenario dps for Mesmer pales in comparison to ele or engie.

Fay.2357:

We will see a dps increase…but even 100% best case scenario dps for Mesmer pales in comparison to ele or engie.

^
I did the math assuming phantasm uptime even before news of the minion change. Condi mes came up surprisingly competitive with power mes.

Neither was competitive with the meta dps builds.

I think frifox even did the math showing that replacing a mesmers phantasms with a frost spirit increased party DPS more than 3 phantasms.

Keep in mind that’s about half a mesmers dps too and it looks pretty grim.

On the bright side if alacrity isn’t touched and you can keep high uptime of it then chronomancer has a lot more potential for increasing party dps and utility.

With 4 wells and 3 iAvengers you can certainly keep up high amounts in boss fights for the whole party I would say. With the change to minions not being instagibbed too they will actually stay out for much longer than their cooldown.

apharma.3741:

I think frifox even did the math showing that replacing a mesmers phantasms with a frost spirit increased party DPS more than 3 phantasms.

To clarify, for frost spirit to be more effective than 3 fully buffed swordsmans your party DPS has to be ~70k dps (quite realistic with 2x ele during organized guild runs). On average a good zerk party dps will push ~40k and frost sprit would increase that by ~2.8k, which is 1.6 swordsmans. Basically, the higher your party dps the more valuable frost spirit is, to the point where in the high end it does overtake 3x swordsmans.

With HoT mesmer MAY become top DPS by feeding off other party members dps – through aclarity & quickness. Only time and in-game testing will tell, which definitely will come.

frifox.5283:

apharma.3741:

I think frifox even did the math showing that replacing a mesmers phantasms with a frost spirit increased party DPS more than 3 phantasms.

To clarify, for frost spirit to be more effective than 3 fully buffed swordsmans your party DPS has to be ~70k dps (quite realistic with 2x ele during organized guild runs). On average a good zerk party dps will push ~40k and frost sprit would increase that by ~2.8k, which is 1.6 swordsmans. Basically, the higher your party dps the more valuable frost spirit is, to the point where in the high end it does overtake 3x swordsmans.

With HoT mesmer MAY become top DPS by feeding off other party members dps – through aclarity & quickness. Only time and in-game testing will tell, which definitely will come.

Which, incidentally, creates both the start and the end of mesmer value: while a chronomancer may be highest dps, the dependence on party dps also caps the number of chronos that is viable. Taking 2 chronomancers decreases the value of each of them.
In raids it’s possible (but unlikely) that 2 chronos will make sense (1 for each party), but you’ll always be discussing whether you should have 2 or more engi/ele dps.

Alacrity/quickness is ensuring a slot for chronomancer, but it’s only one slot.

Fay.2357:

Zeppelin.6832:

frifox.5283:

Mes is a utility bot, no point in ranking dps. DPS varies from solo to group comp too much so there’s another reason to not rank. Furthermore, DPS does not decide how useful a class is in raids.

If your focus is still DPS then you can forget playing as mesmer.

There’s no way to know that for sure. With the changes to minion damage incoming and our phantasms actually staying alive now, there’s no reason we won’t see a huge dps increase.

We will see a dps increase…but even 100% best case scenario dps for Mesmer pales in comparison to ele or engie.

Sure, if you’re going to compare us to practically pure DPS classes. But an engineer sacrifices all of their utility to be that top tier DPS.

A better comparison would be a Mesmer’s DPS vs Warrior or Guardian. Compared to other utility classes, our DPS is competitive.

AlphatheWhite.9351:

frifox.5283:

apharma.3741:

I think frifox even did the math showing that replacing a mesmers phantasms with a frost spirit increased party DPS more than 3 phantasms.

To clarify, for frost spirit to be more effective than 3 fully buffed swordsmans your party DPS has to be ~70k dps (quite realistic with 2x ele during organized guild runs). On average a good zerk party dps will push ~40k and frost sprit would increase that by ~2.8k, which is 1.6 swordsmans. Basically, the higher your party dps the more valuable frost spirit is, to the point where in the high end it does overtake 3x swordsmans.

With HoT mesmer MAY become top DPS by feeding off other party members dps – through aclarity & quickness. Only time and in-game testing will tell, which definitely will come.

Which, incidentally, creates both the start and the end of mesmer value: while a chronomancer may be highest dps, the dependence on party dps also caps the number of chronos that is viable. Taking 2 chronomancers decreases the value of each of them.
In raids it’s possible (but unlikely) that 2 chronos will make sense (1 for each party), but you’ll always be discussing whether you should have 2 or more engi/ele dps.

Alacrity/quickness is ensuring a slot for chronomancer, but it’s only one slot.

Why wouldn’t you take 2 chronos in raids?

TheFrighteningFrenchFry.3275:

AlphatheWhite.9351:

frifox.5283:

apharma.3741:

I think frifox even did the math showing that replacing a mesmers phantasms with a frost spirit increased party DPS more than 3 phantasms.

To clarify, for frost spirit to be more effective than 3 fully buffed swordsmans your party DPS has to be ~70k dps (quite realistic with 2x ele during organized guild runs). On average a good zerk party dps will push ~40k and frost sprit would increase that by ~2.8k, which is 1.6 swordsmans. Basically, the higher your party dps the more valuable frost spirit is, to the point where in the high end it does overtake 3x swordsmans.

With HoT mesmer MAY become top DPS by feeding off other party members dps – through aclarity & quickness. Only time and in-game testing will tell, which definitely will come.

Which, incidentally, creates both the start and the end of mesmer value: while a chronomancer may be highest dps, the dependence on party dps also caps the number of chronos that is viable. Taking 2 chronomancers decreases the value of each of them.
In raids it’s possible (but unlikely) that 2 chronos will make sense (1 for each party), but you’ll always be discussing whether you should have 2 or more engi/ele dps.

Alacrity/quickness is ensuring a slot for chronomancer, but it’s only one slot.

Why wouldn’t you take 2 chronos in raids?

The premise is the classical role-sorting of parties. A chrono in the dps party (or at least, focused on supporting the dps party) makes sense, but the second chrono’s value falls off relatively speaking.
The point is that while it’s possible there will be sufficiently more than 5 pure dps in a raid to justify a second chrono, and alacrity is still useful for the utility classes, it’s less likely to be the case that you’d not get more out of adding another dps.

So while one view is that a raid is just two optimal groups (which would include 2 chronos), the other is that role specialization suggests otherwise. Raids in other MMOs suggest the latter is likely.

For example, suppose sinister engi is the uncontested meta dps (I suspect a mix of ele/engi will be optimal in the end).
What else do we need? 1 druid and at least 1 chrono are expected (druid b/c of Anet, chrono because of math). Fortunately, the druid and chrono don’t need to be in the same group as the dps to be effective.
Next, PS Warr is obvious. He’ll go in the same group as the dps, to maximize the target limit of his banners. To make the best use out of that dps boost, fill the entire rest of his group with dps. So 4engi+1warr for group 1. If there is another class that is needed to boost the dps group, you swap out an engi for that.
Optimizing group 1 follows the usual dps/support math, but without worrying about utility, which can be provided by group 2. The only reason to stick a utility class in group 1 is if that utility class also provides valuable untargetable support.

So now we’re left optimizing group 2. So far that’s a druid and a chrono.
Candidates include Herald (supporting the chrono+decent dps+tank), thief (stealth+decent dps), guardian(reflects+decent dps+tank), moar dps (ele/engi), moar tank (rev/warr/guard), moar cc (rev/???).

In any case, adding a second chrono leaves only 2 slots for strong dps in group 2, leaving you with a druid (low dps), chrono (low dps and doesn’t need the alacrity anyway), second chrono (low dps), and 2 dps or utility to try to boost his value off of.
Is it possible that will still be worthwhile? Yeah.
Is it likely that will still be worthwhile? It doesn’t seem so.

Has anyone actually calculated Chrono dps? between constant shatters and wells It felt much stronger than regular mesmer to me

AlphatheWhite.9351:

TheFrighteningFrenchFry.3275:

AlphatheWhite.9351:

frifox.5283:

apharma.3741:

I think frifox even did the math showing that replacing a mesmers phantasms with a frost spirit increased party DPS more than 3 phantasms.

To clarify, for frost spirit to be more effective than 3 fully buffed swordsmans your party DPS has to be ~70k dps (quite realistic with 2x ele during organized guild runs). On average a good zerk party dps will push ~40k and frost sprit would increase that by ~2.8k, which is 1.6 swordsmans. Basically, the higher your party dps the more valuable frost spirit is, to the point where in the high end it does overtake 3x swordsmans.

With HoT mesmer MAY become top DPS by feeding off other party members dps – through aclarity & quickness. Only time and in-game testing will tell, which definitely will come.

Which, incidentally, creates both the start and the end of mesmer value: while a chronomancer may be highest dps, the dependence on party dps also caps the number of chronos that is viable. Taking 2 chronomancers decreases the value of each of them.
In raids it’s possible (but unlikely) that 2 chronos will make sense (1 for each party), but you’ll always be discussing whether you should have 2 or more engi/ele dps.

Alacrity/quickness is ensuring a slot for chronomancer, but it’s only one slot.

Why wouldn’t you take 2 chronos in raids?

The premise is the classical role-sorting of parties. A chrono in the dps party (or at least, focused on supporting the dps party) makes sense, but the second chrono’s value falls off relatively speaking.
The point is that while it’s possible there will be sufficiently more than 5 pure dps in a raid to justify a second chrono, and alacrity is still useful for the utility classes, it’s less likely to be the case that you’d not get more out of adding another dps.

So while one view is that a raid is just two optimal groups (which would include 2 chronos), the other is that role specialization suggests otherwise. Raids in other MMOs suggest the latter is likely.

For example, suppose sinister engi is the uncontested meta dps (I suspect a mix of ele/engi will be optimal in the end).
What else do we need? 1 druid and at least 1 chrono are expected (druid b/c of Anet, chrono because of math). Fortunately, the druid and chrono don’t need to be in the same group as the dps to be effective.
Next, PS Warr is obvious. He’ll go in the same group as the dps, to maximize the target limit of his banners. To make the best use out of that dps boost, fill the entire rest of his group with dps. So 4engi+1warr for group 1. If there is another class that is needed to boost the dps group, you swap out an engi for that.
Optimizing group 1 follows the usual dps/support math, but without worrying about utility, which can be provided by group 2. The only reason to stick a utility class in group 1 is if that utility class also provides valuable untargetable support.

So now we’re left optimizing group 2. So far that’s a druid and a chrono.
Candidates include Herald (supporting the chrono+decent dps+tank), thief (stealth+decent dps), guardian(reflects+decent dps+tank), moar dps (ele/engi), moar tank (rev/warr/guard), moar cc (rev/???).

In any case, adding a second chrono leaves only 2 slots for strong dps in group 2, leaving you with a druid (low dps), chrono (low dps and doesn’t need the alacrity anyway), second chrono (low dps), and 2 dps or utility to try to boost his value off of.
Is it possible that will still be worthwhile? Yeah.
Is it likely that will still be worthwhile? It doesn’t seem so.

I see it as basically two identical groups because buffs prefer your sub squad. Even with ground targeted buffs you can’t simply have your highest DPS stand on one side of the boss because if the boss moves a little bit all those buffs go to waist especially for the first boss which your supposed to move around. Guess we will just have to wait and see.

TheFrighteningFrenchFry.3275:

I see it as basically two identical groups because buffs prefer your sub squad. Even with ground targeted buffs you can’t simply have your highest DPS stand on one side of the boss because if the boss moves a little bit all those buffs go to waist especially for the first boss which your supposed to move around. Guess we will just have to wait and see.

In an identical-group mechanic, for example:
Group 1 = 2 ele/engi, 1 ps warr, 1 chrono, 1 thief
Group 2 = 2 ele/engi, 1 ps warr, 1 chrono, 1 druid

That’s 4 top dps with full buffs, 2 tier2 dps with full buffs, 1 tier3 dps/utility with full buffs, 2 crappy dps/support with full buffs, 1 full support/terrible dps with full buffs

In a dps-group mechanic:
Group 1 = 4 ele/engi, 1 ps warr
Group 2 = 1 chrono, 1 druid, 1 thief, 2 ele/engi

That’s 4 top dps with full buffs, 2 top dps with secondary buffs, 1 tier2 dps with full buffs, 1 tier2 with secondary buffs, 1 tier3 with secondary buffs, 1 crappy dps/support with secondary buffs, 1 full support/terrible dps with secondary buffs.

The loss:

• alacrity/quickness and banners for 2 crappy dps, 1 terrible dps, 1 tier2 dps and 1 tier3 dps.
• some utility from having a second portal/MI

The gain:

• 1 crappy dps is now a top dps (without alacrity/quickness or banners).
• 1 tier2 dps is now a top dps.
• some utility from having more slots to swap engis with eles and vice versa.

The real question is, does the dps loss to lower-dps classes amount to more damage than the dps gain from swapping some of those lower-dps classes to higher-dps classes?
I’m just not confident that the answer is yes.

AlphatheWhite.9351:

TheFrighteningFrenchFry.3275:

I see it as basically two identical groups because buffs prefer your sub squad. Even with ground targeted buffs you can’t simply have your highest DPS stand on one side of the boss because if the boss moves a little bit all those buffs go to waist especially for the first boss which your supposed to move around. Guess we will just have to wait and see.

In an identical-group mechanic, for example:
Group 1 = 2 ele/engi, 1 ps warr, 1 chrono, 1 thief
Group 2 = 2 ele/engi, 1 ps warr, 1 chrono, 1 druid

That’s 4 top dps with full buffs, 2 tier2 dps with full buffs, 1 tier3 dps/utility with full buffs, 2 crappy dps/support with full buffs, 1 full support/terrible dps with full buffs

In a dps-group mechanic:
Group 1 = 4 ele/engi, 1 ps warr
Group 2 = 1 chrono, 1 druid, 1 thief, 2 ele/engi

That’s 4 top dps with full buffs, 2 top dps with secondary buffs, 1 tier2 dps with full buffs, 1 tier2 with secondary buffs, 1 tier3 with secondary buffs, 1 crappy dps/support with secondary buffs, 1 full support/terrible dps with secondary buffs.

The loss:

• alacrity/quickness and banners for 2 crappy dps, 1 terrible dps, 1 tier2 dps and 1 tier3 dps.
• some utility from having a second portal/MI

The gain:

• 1 crappy dps is now a top dps (without alacrity/quickness or banners).
• 1 tier2 dps is now a top dps.
• some utility from having more slots to swap engis with eles and vice versa.

The real question is, does the dps loss to lower-dps classes amount to more damage than the dps gain from swapping some of those lower-dps classes to higher-dps classes?
I’m just not confident that the answer is yes.

Why would you take a warrior for the first groups buffer and then take a chrono for the second groups. It would be either 2 chronos or 2 PS warriors right?

EDIT: I said wouldn’t it and it blurted it out as wouldn’kitten ? Did they brake the forums? Time to try something else and see if they blurt it out. Lol and now it says it just fine in the edit I’m so confused >.<

AlphatheWhite.9351:

TheFrighteningFrenchFry.3275:

I see it as basically two identical groups because buffs prefer your sub squad. Even with ground targeted buffs you can’t simply have your highest DPS stand on one side of the boss because if the boss moves a little bit all those buffs go to waist especially for the first boss which your supposed to move around. Guess we will just have to wait and see.

In an identical-group mechanic, for example:
Group 1 = 2 ele/engi, 1 ps warr, 1 chrono, 1 thief
Group 2 = 2 ele/engi, 1 ps warr, 1 chrono, 1 druid

That’s 4 top dps with full buffs, 2 tier2 dps with full buffs, 1 tier3 dps/utility with full buffs, 2 crappy dps/support with full buffs, 1 full support/terrible dps with full buffs

In a dps-group mechanic:
Group 1 = 4 ele/engi, 1 ps warr
Group 2 = 1 chrono, 1 druid, 1 thief, 2 ele/engi

That’s 4 top dps with full buffs, 2 top dps with secondary buffs, 1 tier2 dps with full buffs, 1 tier2 with secondary buffs, 1 tier3 with secondary buffs, 1 crappy dps/support with secondary buffs, 1 full support/terrible dps with secondary buffs.

The loss:

• alacrity/quickness and banners for 2 crappy dps, 1 terrible dps, 1 tier2 dps and 1 tier3 dps.
• some utility from having a second portal/MI

The gain:

• 1 crappy dps is now a top dps (without alacrity/quickness or banners).
• 1 tier2 dps is now a top dps.
• some utility from having more slots to swap engis with eles and vice versa.

The real question is, does the dps loss to lower-dps classes amount to more damage than the dps gain from swapping some of those lower-dps classes to higher-dps classes?
I’m just not confident that the answer is yes.

Not seeing Rev…. anywhere

TheFrighteningFrenchFry.3275:

Why would you take a warrior for the first groups buffer and then take a chrono for the second groups. It would be either 2 chronos or 2 PS warriors right?

Chrono doesn’t need to be in the group for their buffs. Because the alacrity and quickness are area-based, they can be in group 2 and still be buffing group 1.
The warrior, though, needs to be in group 1 to ensure that their banner/might/other buffs go to their group.

TheFrighteningFrenchFry.3275:

EDIT: I said wouldn’t it and it blurted it out as wouldn’kitten ? Did they brake the forums? Time to try something else and see if they blurt it out. Lol and now it says it just fine in the edit I’m so confused >.<

Happens to me all the time. Contractions that end with a “t”, followed by an “it?” look to their rather trigger-happy algorithm like saying “ti” “ts”. Childish giggling follows.

Azure.8670:

Not seeing Rev…. anywhere

It’s simpler this way. But you can stick them in group 2 instead of an extra ele/engi. That strengthens the mesmer’s quickness buffing, at the cost of downgrading from a top dps to a tier2 dps. We don’t know if that’s worthwhile until we can measure revenant’s dps in action in raids.

AlphatheWhite.9351:

TheFrighteningFrenchFry.3275:

Why would you take a warrior for the first groups buffer and then take a chrono for the second groups. It would be either 2 chronos or 2 PS warriors right?

Chrono doesn’t need to be in the group for their buffs. Because the alacrity and quickness are area-based, they can be in group 2 and still be buffing group 1.
The warrior, though, needs to be in group 1 to ensure that their banner/might/other buffs go to their group.

TheFrighteningFrenchFry.3275:

EDIT: I said wouldn’t it and it blurted it out as wouldn’kitten ? Did they brake the forums? Time to try something else and see if they blurt it out. Lol and now it says it just fine in the edit I’m so confused >.<

Happens to me all the time. Contractions that end with a “t”, followed by an “it?” look to their rather trigger-happy algorithm like saying “ti” “ts”. Childish giggling follows.

But even if one group stands on one side of the boss while group two stands on the other side of the boss if the boss moves a little bit that totally wastes TW n wells. Especially for the first boss where your wanting to be moving the boss around. But then again some people will be going to the lightning on the first boss so IDK. Seems like it could work sometimes but it’s only sometimes for a 1 chrono comp.

TheFrighteningFrenchFry.3275:

But even if one group stands on one side of the boss while group two stands on the other side of the boss if the boss moves a little bit that totally wastes TW n wells. Especially for the first boss where your wanting to be moving the boss around. But then again some people will be going to the lightning on the first boss so IDK. Seems like it could work sometimes but it’s only sometimes for a 1 chrono comp.

That’s not a unique problem to this group, though. Even the identical-group solution has to deal with that. It’s chronomancer itself that’s reliant on the positioning for Wells/TW.

Without diing illusions – 3 warlocks in a full dps build and we’re top tier … :P

AlphatheWhite.9351:

TheFrighteningFrenchFry.3275:

But even if one group stands on one side of the boss while group two stands on the other side of the boss if the boss moves a little bit that totally wastes TW n wells. Especially for the first boss where your wanting to be moving the boss around. But then again some people will be going to the lightning on the first boss so IDK. Seems like it could work sometimes but it’s only sometimes for a 1 chrono comp.

That’s not a unique problem to this group, though. Even the identical-group solution has to deal with that. It’s chronomancer itself that’s reliant on the positioning for Wells/TW.

With the identical group solution you can place the AoEs on top of the boss instead of at the very edge of one side of the boss meaning some tiny movement from the boss wouldn’t screw up your buffs.

Xyonon.3987:

Without diing illusions – 3 warlocks in a full dps build and we’re top tier … :P

I giggled at first but you know, youre kinda right…

Xyonon.3987:

Without diing illusions – 3 warlocks in a full dps build and we’re top tier … :P

Good thing I’m enjoying the staff for the past few weeks. I was surprised how much damage they do (as long as many conditions are on the target).

I see a lot of people saying how mesmer doesn’t do much damage in comparison to ele in a dps slot, but you guys are definitely missing a major piece of the puzzle: doing damage against just a stationary target is no longer the name of the game. In fact, most major PvE groups (including the group with the first Vale Guardian kill) just don’t foresee ele having any place in raid groups b/c the damage is terrible against moving targets.

In that way, mesmers have a lot of advantages. On top of the group support, which is a major factor, mesmers have alacrity and quickness sharing, which is worth more dps than any single other class, all by itself. Add in buffed phanatasm survivability and I think you might actually see mesmers become the new ele, in that pve groups will be stacking at least 2 per 10-man party, maybe more (to try and achieve 100% alacrity and uptime).

Phloww.1048:

Xyonon.3987:

Without diing illusions – 3 warlocks in a full dps build and we’re top tier … :P

Good thing I’m enjoying the staff for the past few weeks. I was surprised how much damage they do (as long as many conditions are on the target).

When they hit :P

AlphatheWhite.9351:

When they hit :P

Hey! Hey! I don’t want any of the phantasms missing now! They have no excuse now that they take a lot less damage from those AoEs. :P

Edit: (Uh, can they actually miss? I haven’t seen one miss unless they die shortly after summoned)

Phloww.1048:

AlphatheWhite.9351:

When they hit :P

Hey! Hey! I don’t want any of the phantasms missing now! They have no excuse now that they take a lot less damage from those AoEs. :P

Your lips to Gee’s ears. iWarlock’s projectile needs to track its targets :P

Yea warlock misses quite often if the target changes direction or stops moving while the projectile is in mid air. The projectile also sticks to the ground wich makes it unaviable in places where cliffs are.

I’d prefer a chaos beam like attack from the warlock, like the illusionists in arah or simply scepter #3 / GS 1#. But for having some counterplay at least → a homing projectile like staff #1, but with a good visible animation.

iWarlock outdamages iSwordsman at 7 conditions.

My dream of iWarlock being powerful got shattered!!! A chaos beam or a homing projectile, like you said, Xyonon, would be nice. Based from the wiki, with various levels of terrain and environment and target movement, it seems iSwordsman has to highest chance to land a hit on a target (wiki hasn’t mention about iAvenger’s chance of hitting the target, but we assume it’s about 100% of the time).

Anyways, back on topic, I did not get to experience the raid during BWE3, but the wells only target 5 allies/mobs, which makes me feel that 2 chronomancers (one in each group) each carrying variations would be beneficial. For example, one could have TW and the other have Gravity Well (at least from a video I saw with 2 chronos in the group). But that MAY NOT mean it’s most optimal. I think many of us are just waiting to see as well as needing more testings to determine what is most optimal for the raid group as a whole.