Guild Wars 2

all the class they downed skill, can do a little foe help alive more or filp it

but only Mesmer is fail

skill 2 always useless, always tele at very close or bad position
skill 3 99% u don’t have any chance cast it

skill 2 need a little far more or maybe also make 2 clone too
skill 3 need a new one

or maybe let mes can use F1~F4 (when they skill has illison, not count self) like ranger can swich/control pet

and sure when mes downed, it already lose
but just wanna make more fair

Uh oh. Queue the PvP brigade, yes all 30 of them, who will tell you that it’s one of the best #2 skills because reasons.

I mean, in PvP the stealth on Downed #2 actually is really good.

The only problem I have with it is that, unlike Thief Downed #2, it’s totally random. Which isn’t a big problem in PvP but makes the skill essentially useless in PvE, thanks to ANet’s overreliance on persistent damaging ground effects to create fake difficulty.

I would like the randomness of the skill removed for PvE and WvW sake. It should at least try to move you out of any AoE that is on top of you when you cast it (and also not put you in another AoE that is already down). That is the only change that it needs, because far too often it puts you in an AoE field.

Skill 3 is pretty powerful for a downed state skill, so I think its fine.

Skill 2, random is too stupid, always near old place,
we always just need hit on same place or near clone
and sometime we didn’t need move or re-cast finish than can end a mes

Skill 3, i never see a mes can use it for change anything or make a little help
even u can cast it, next sec u already dead

Downed skill 2 is probably the worst downed skill in the game. You even know which one is the mesmer since the clone always gets revealed first and the player second. Always.

Ananeos.4587:

Downed skill 2 is probably the worst downed skill in the game. You even know which one is the mesmer since the clone always gets revealed first and the player second. Always.

You would be surprised how many people go after the clone, multiple times too…..

Carighan.6758:

Uh oh. Queue the PvP brigade, yes all 30 of them, who will tell you that it’s one of the best #2 skills because reasons.

And you’re trying to argue that downed state is valuable in PvE because…reasons?

Lets face it, if you get downed in PvE, you’re either bad or in a situation where your downed skills don’t matter because your team should be reviving you. Downed state only matters for PvP, and mesmer downed state 2 is absolute top tier for PvP.

The only people that think mesmer downed state is bad are the ones that don’t understand how it works, how stomping works, or how PvP in general works.

sometime u didn’t need cancel finish, mes show up at very close and u finish him…..

DreamyLove.8947:

sometime u didn’t need cancel finish, mes show up at very close and u finish him…..

Thank you for illustrating my point so cleanly. You see that happen and think ‘oh, this skill must be bad’ when the truth is that the Mesmer using it is bad, and you lack the necessary understanding to see why.

Fay.2357:

And you’re trying to argue that downed state is valuable in PvE because…reasons?

Lets face it, if you get downed in PvE, you’re either bad or in a situation where your downed skills don’t matter because your team should be reviving you. Downed state only matters for PvP, and mesmer downed state 2 is absolute top tier for PvP.

I wish we had numbers for this. I have a slight suspicion that if you were to sum up the amount of times players get downed and up from downed state, PvE might show it’s rather important there.

Yes, it might be your opinion that it only matters for bad players. They should “gitgud”. Thing is, “you’re not capping your player skill yet” is not really an excuse to have skills with crappy mechanics. It’s alright to have skills with complex mechanics if you want some specifically to provide a higher skill ceiling.

It’s probably accurate to say that the downed state is irrelevant in instanced group PvE. Especially with the level of healing that Druids put out right now, getting downed means you probably failed a fight mechanic.

But there’s PvE other than instanced groups. Many of the HoT events feature stunlocking and persistent ground AoEs that deal a significant amount of damage. The clearest example is probably this: If I get downed in the Wyvern Matriach fight on my Thief, I can get out of the fire and channel 4 and maybe get revived. If I get downed in the same fight on my Mesmer, hitting 2 pretty just dumps you in a different part of the fire.

So, whatever. I won’t lose sleep if our downed skills never get touched. There are certainly much higher priorities for the Mesmer class. But if something were done to make our downed 2 better, that’d be nice.

tobascodagama.2961:

I mean, in PvP the stealth on Downed #2 actually is really good.

The only problem I have with it is that, unlike Thief Downed #2, it’s totally random. Which isn’t a big problem in PvP but makes the skill essentially useless in PvE, thanks to ANet’s overreliance on persistent damaging ground effects to create fake difficulty.

Uhm in PvP the randomness is a problem as well, sometimes i am far away even on the other side of the wall but most of the times i am just a few meters away and killed because of that – if the invisibility breaks, the stomp get me there as well and if the invisibility doesn’t break, most use AOE and don’t even try to stomp, i am dead as well in that case…

Fay.2357:

Carighan.6758:

Uh oh. Queue the PvP brigade, yes all 30 of them, who will tell you that it’s one of the best #2 skills because reasons.

And you’re trying to argue that downed state is valuable in PvE because…reasons?

Lets face it, if you get downed in PvE, you’re either bad or in a situation where your downed skills don’t matter because your team should be reviving you. Downed state only matters for PvP, and mesmer downed state 2 is absolute top tier for PvP.

The only people that think mesmer downed state is bad are the ones that don’t understand how it works, how stomping works, or how PvP in general works.

In that case i must be a bad PvP player and don’t understand that skill – pleas explain me how i get a teleport that sends me out of the stomp range of my clone and not direct under the enemy – i am willing to learn

Carighan.6758:

Fay.2357:

And you’re trying to argue that downed state is valuable in PvE because…reasons?

Lets face it, if you get downed in PvE, you’re either bad or in a situation where your downed skills don’t matter because your team should be reviving you. Downed state only matters for PvP, and mesmer downed state 2 is absolute top tier for PvP.

I wish we had numbers for this. I have a slight suspicion that if you were to sum up the amount of times players get downed and up from downed state, PvE might show it’s rather important there.

Yes, it might be your opinion that it only matters for bad players. They should “gitgud”. Thing is, “you’re not capping your player skill yet” is not really an excuse to have skills with crappy mechanics. It’s alright to have skills with complex mechanics if you want some specifically to provide a higher skill ceiling.

Versus what? A simple count is arbitrary and meaningless.
I have a slight suspicion that if you were to sum up the number of avoided spikes and rallies by each profession in PvP environments and compared them individually to solo-PvE-play, and then compare that to the number of play-hours on each profession, the percentage of saves from the ability in PvP environments would massively overshadow the PvE ones.

TBTH, the mesmer’s downed state in general is quite good, even in PvE. The AA is one of the highest-scaling downed-state abilities. Stealth and teleport on downed is amazing to regen some health and avoid getting stomped/damaged/cleaved. The rogue on a power build should finish or one-shot open-world mobs because it does more damage than backstab.

It’s not a bad mechanic, either. The teleport isn’t totally random.

Honestly, I think the only professions better off in downed state in PvE are the necromancer and guardian, and both of those are definitively weaker in the PvP environments unless you get lucky on your opponent having no stability and/or low health (necro downed state against low hp target is definitely the best downed state when in this environment), and neither professions have good mobility or ranged options and are going to be more inclined to go down.

Plus, I mean, it’s downed state in PvE. It doesn’t even matter if you reach the skill cap or not. If you’re dying in PvE, there’s a good reason for it: either the downed state isn’t to blame because you went down to begin with against something you should have otherwise beaten, or you bit off way more than you can chew and either need to get better at the class while alive to beat it, or you just had no chance of winning, anyways, so there’s no sense in complaining. Or, you’re in a group environment, and the mesmer downed state is one of the best ones when there are some people nearby to res.

Tiefsee.3647:

Fay.2357:

Carighan.6758:

Uh oh. Queue the PvP brigade, yes all 30 of them, who will tell you that it’s one of the best #2 skills because reasons.

And you’re trying to argue that downed state is valuable in PvE because…reasons?

Lets face it, if you get downed in PvE, you’re either bad or in a situation where your downed skills don’t matter because your team should be reviving you. Downed state only matters for PvP, and mesmer downed state 2 is absolute top tier for PvP.

The only people that think mesmer downed state is bad are the ones that don’t understand how it works, how stomping works, or how PvP in general works.

In that case i must be a bad PvP player and don’t understand that skill – pleas explain me how i get a teleport that sends me out of the stomp range of my clone and not direct under the enemy – i am willing to learn

You’re using the wrong aspect of the skill to avoid a stomp, and this is why the Mesmer downed state is more reliable than the thief downed state for avoiding stomps.

If you are stealthed when the stomp finishes, it will fail. Since the #2 skill stealths you, that is what you use to avoid the stomp. A simple teleport, like thief, can be countered with another chasing teleport mid-stomp. The only way to counter the Mesmer stealth is with reveal.

Therefor, the proper way to use the Mesmer downed state is to wait until the stomp has almost completed, then use the skill. You will stealth and the stomp will miss.

Carighan.6758:

Fay.2357:

And you’re trying to argue that downed state is valuable in PvE because…reasons?

Lets face it, if you get downed in PvE, you’re either bad or in a situation where your downed skills don’t matter because your team should be reviving you. Downed state only matters for PvP, and mesmer downed state 2 is absolute top tier for PvP.

I wish we had numbers for this. I have a slight suspicion that if you were to sum up the amount of times players get downed and up from downed state, PvE might show it’s rather important there.

Yes, it might be your opinion that it only matters for bad players. They should “gitgud”. Thing is, “you’re not capping your player skill yet” is not really an excuse to have skills with crappy mechanics. It’s alright to have skills with complex mechanics if you want some specifically to provide a higher skill ceiling.

Ok, so you’ve gotten downed in open world PvE. Good job! What happens next?

If you’ve almost killed the mob, the Mesmer downed state is extremely strong at finishing that job. Deception will drop aggro for long enough to spawn a hard-hitting rogue for the kill.

If you haven’t almost killed the mob, you just got rekt and deserve the death to hammer home the fact that you should probably be taking a different approach.

I’m not seeing an issue here, even in PvE.

Fay.2357:

Carighan.6758:

Fay.2357:

And you’re trying to argue that downed state is valuable in PvE because…reasons?

Lets face it, if you get downed in PvE, you’re either bad or in a situation where your downed skills don’t matter because your team should be reviving you. Downed state only matters for PvP, and mesmer downed state 2 is absolute top tier for PvP.

I wish we had numbers for this. I have a slight suspicion that if you were to sum up the amount of times players get downed and up from downed state, PvE might show it’s rather important there.

Yes, it might be your opinion that it only matters for bad players. They should “gitgud”. Thing is, “you’re not capping your player skill yet” is not really an excuse to have skills with crappy mechanics. It’s alright to have skills with complex mechanics if you want some specifically to provide a higher skill ceiling.

Ok, so you’ve gotten downed in open world PvE. Good job! What happens next?

If you’ve almost killed the mob, the Mesmer downed state is extremely strong at finishing that job. Deception will drop aggro for long enough to spawn a hard-hitting rogue for the kill.

If you haven’t almost killed the mob, you just got rekt and deserve the death to hammer home the fact that you should probably be taking a different approach.

I’m not seeing an issue here, even in PvE.

The only thing you missed, which is mostly only relevant in HoT maps, is that skill 2 far too often places you inside an AoE that was already on the ground when you cast it, and you aren’t alive long enough to be able to cast the rogue and get that rally. That’s the chief complaint, the skill’s randomness is incredibly strong, and also a huge kitten you much of the time.

I think the one mechanical change it’d need as far as improving it goes is that it should try to move you to a safer spot. That is, never into AEs you weren’t already in when you casted it, other than if there is no other space available.

Alternatively, rework the downed back so that we can spawn targeted illusions and then swap with them with another skill, effectively giving a controllable version. Though that’d require a significant damage bump due to the loss of the phantasm, and that in turn would probably just lead to a lot of tears…

Fay.2357:

DreamyLove.8947:

sometime u didn’t need cancel finish, mes show up at very close and u finish him…..

Thank you for illustrating my point so cleanly. You see that happen and think ‘oh, this skill must be bad’ when the truth is that the Mesmer using it is bad, and you lack the necessary understanding to see why.

Well, you’re supposed to activate the skills near when the skill 3/4 finishes, not as soon as someone tries to finish you. This is the one advantage the mesmer 2 down state skill has over thieves. If I was finishing a thief as another thief/mesmer/elementalist, I could easily prepare a teleport skill to follow them when they teleport. With Mesmer 2 down state, when they stealth before your finisher finishes then you can’t follow them because they’ll be in stealth.

However the randomness of the teleport is pretty bad but I guess that’s the trade off of having BOTH a teleport AND stealth.

eliroth.3869:

Fay.2357:

DreamyLove.8947:

sometime u didn’t need cancel finish, mes show up at very close and u finish him…..

Thank you for illustrating my point so cleanly. You see that happen and think ‘oh, this skill must be bad’ when the truth is that the Mesmer using it is bad, and you lack the necessary understanding to see why.

Well, you’re supposed to activate the skills near when the skill 3/4 finishes, not as soon as someone tries to finish you. This is the one advantage the mesmer 2 down state skill has over thieves. If I was finishing a thief as another thief/mesmer/elementalist, I could easily prepare a teleport skill to follow them when they teleport. With Mesmer 2 down state, when they stealth before your finisher finishes then you can’t follow them because they’ll be in stealth.

However the randomness of the teleport is pretty bad but I guess that’s the trade off of having BOTH a teleport AND stealth.

i think ppl always try hit mes first than finish
just only few ppl will just cast finish

when u use skill 2, u already near dead
they still hit u

if u wanna use skill 4 for get back some hp
u will got break stealth

if u do nothign when u stealth
u still maybe dead by no one is hiting u

this didn’t realy better than thief
cos ur opps not need use or have teleport skill, or break stun
than can end u

they only need worry about ur team, not u

@Fay & @Eliroth

There’re several ways to counter Deception, the mesmer’s down skill #2.
In descending order of effectiveness:

1. You start stomping and when the mesmer starts to cast Deception, you cancel and start stomping again before the mesmer is stealthed. If the teleport is close, you will stomp them after they’re revealed. If too far, you can teleport to them.
2. Swing at the air in the right radius. If a sigil procs you got them. Swapping weapons can help immensely. Adrenaline can also be an indication for warriors.
3. If the mesmer was downed in a small secluded area they will inevitably teleport close enough. Take advantage of that as you see fit.
4. Aoe like a madman.
5. Play in lower tiers of pvp
6. BM with /dance, /laugh and etc.
7. Play in WvW /jk

Obviously, the #1 way is the most preferable. By far.

Everything being said, I’m not seeing a reason to buff it. It’s pretty strong the way it is. Unless they split downstate between game mods. If so, then go crazy!