Guild Wars 2

Hello guys,
From what i gather in in the forum, apparently mesmer dps is the lowest in pve, except for bosses that do a lot of range attack. I just wondering if that is actually true, since I have a mesmer and a guardian, and i find mesmer down bosses faster and safer than guardian in AC explorable paths. Maybe i just suck as guardian, but it think mesmer contribute a lot to team damage with time warp.
Thanks

Yea, Mesmer dps is pretty subpar. It is definitely in much need of rework clones die almost instantly at times. We feel more like a support class most of the time with offering reflects, mass invisibility aoe condi cleanse etc. it seems our dps is an afterthought. Don’t get me wrong its not like we offer nothing but we are most certainly towards the bottom of the latter which is really un fair when you think about it. Looking specifically at Ele for instance they have amazing might stacking vuln and swift stacking and have some of the highest dps in the game. Heck necro would be better than Mesmer in pve if they only offered more support to the group.

I was recently clued into this Group DPS Calculator. Apperently this was calculated and verified in game.

Guard at its best is the lowest in the game, slightly lower then Mesmer at its best IIRC. The two classes sit around 10.8K DPS average in a full DPS spec where others top builds average ~13k DPS and up to Thief’s 15K+ not even counting Ele conjure weapon use.

6/4/0/0/4 Sword/Focus//Sword/Pistol w/Mantras puts up the best results for Mesmer using that calc.

What really sucks is that when Mesmer is using the top dps build our support isn’t very good either.

Hopefully HoT will balance this out a bit but I’m not holding my breath.

Can you provide a link to what you’re looking at Bloodgruve?

I simply scrolled through the various solo DPS options for Guardian and then compared them to the same for a few other classes and noted multiple times where a Guardian build was higher DPS than another class’s build.

Three things hurt Mesmer in PvE DPS:

• Mesmer damage is reliant on phantasms which are getting “whoop’d” to death by some PvE mechanics … making those phantasms do no damage (see: dead)
• Mesmer damage is reliant on phantasms and most phantasms are single-target … aside from the Warden, the best DPS phantasms are single-target.
• Mesmer damage is reliant on phantasms but phantasms don’t benefit from various +% increases. They instead base their damage off more “primary” stats (e.g. Precision instead of % Crit Chance)

NOTE: I’m aware we can trait for Fury on our Phantasms … but that’s rather aggravating when you think about that we have Fury on ourself but still have to trait for it so a core part of our DPS can also benefit from that +20% crit chance.

Thanks for the answers guys, i forgot that mesmer phantasm die real quick at time :/

Sebrent.3625:

Can you provide a link to what you’re looking at Bloodgruve?

I simply scrolled through the various solo DPS options for Guardian and then compared them to the same for a few other classes and noted multiple times where a Guardian build was higher DPS than another class’s build.

Three things hurt Mesmer in PvE DPS:

• Mesmer damage is reliant on phantasms which are getting “whoop’d” to death by some PvE mechanics … making those phantasms do no damage (see: dead)
• Mesmer damage is reliant on phantasms and most phantasms are single-target … aside from the Warden, the best DPS phantasms are single-target.
• Mesmer damage is reliant on phantasms but phantasms don’t benefit from various +% increases. They instead base their damage off more “primary” stats (e.g. Precision instead of % Crit Chance)

NOTE: I’m aware we can trait for Fury on our Phantasms … but that’s rather aggravating when you think about that we have Fury on ourself but still have to trait for it so a core part of our DPS can also benefit from that +20% crit chance.

Actually when we put fury on phantasms they benefit from it twice. So when we have fury and our phantasms have trained fury they get a 40% increase.

Daniel Handler.4816:

Actually when we put fury on phantasms they benefit from it twice. So when we have fury and our phantasms have trained fury they get a 40% increase.

The trait applies a pulsating Fury boon on your phantasms. Someone else applying more fury on them will simply increase the duration of said fury, not it’s intensity.

If you still want to claim otherwise, please provide something to support it.

A couple of things worth mentioning too. Some calculations take into consideration condition damage which can be overwritten by others in the party.

Also as far as I know the calculations were off 3 phantasms being up all the time (really funny thread to read) and that the damage is back ended. What does back ended mean? Well it means you spent the first few seconds of the fight doing very little dps as you’re summoning or using signets or playing with flutterbys.

You also have to remember that some guard builds use unscathed contender and some don’t, it is a huge boost to dps if you can keep it up. Frifoxy is the guy/gal to ask about this stuff though, they’ll likely pop in soon =)

Edit: Pow Frifoxy beat me to it.

frifoxy.6014:

Daniel Handler.4816:

Actually when we put fury on phantasms they benefit from it twice. So when we have fury and our phantasms have trained fury they get a 40% increase.

The trait applies a pulsating Fury boon on your phantasms. Someone else applying more fury on them will simply increase the duration of said fury, not it’s intensity.

If you still want to claim otherwise, please provide something to support it.

I think he was saying that the Phantasm would gain the +20% crit chance from Fury on the Mesmer as well as another +20% crit chance from Fury on the Phantasm …

… suggesting that he’s unaware that Phantasms don’t use their Mesmer’s +%crit chance but instead use their Mesmer’s Precision … one reason why you don’t see Mesmer builds taking +% crit chance sigils.

Sebrent.3625:

Can you provide a link to what you’re looking at Bloodgruve?

I simply scrolled through the various solo DPS options for Guardian and then compared them to the same for a few other classes and noted multiple times where a Guardian build was higher DPS than another class’s build.

Populate the calculator with a group that gives 25 Might and 25 Vulnerability. Mesmer 6/4/0/0/4 is the highest build vs Guard’s 4/6/2/0/2. There is a problem though, Ranger Runes no longer work for Mesmer IIRC so Scholar would be needed. Guards must scale less effectively in a group. Also any deviation from the full DPS build will result in lower performance, just look at the difference between the best Mesmer build and the 6/4/0/4/0 reflect build, ~20% difference…

Is that Mesmer DPS calculating the Mesmer with 3 phantasms up?
I don’t see anything that shows what happens when:

• The dungeon mechanics commonly “whoops” illusions to death
• Cleaving/AOE DPS is desired

One thing to consider (mainly @OP since they’re referring to personal experience), is that mesmer has a massively different “falloff curve” when you depart from the “optimal” group:
A melee zerker ele will go down in 1-3 hits and has little to no survivability options if running the absolute maximum dps spec. A max dps mesmer still has automatic 50% Vigor uptime, a potential 25% extra evade uptime from Blurred Frenzy (more if you actually time it against enemy attacks in PvE), and Distortion if things are looking really bad. Plus base dodges and whatever the party is sharing around.
Also, once set up, half our dps remains active even while our character is downed, rezzing someone else, retreating to heal or otherwise occupied.

In an optimal situation Mesmer underperforms, but when you deviate from said optimum a decent Mesmer can retain much more effectiveness than most other classes/specs.
Plus, all those dps comparisons are only valid if you actually have a group that maintains 25 might+fury and stacks on the boss, using optimal dps rotations, which may or may not have been the case (not attacking other posters, but the OP didn’t explicitly state they were in proper speedrun teams at the time,)

Sebrent.3625:

Is that Mesmer DPS calculating the Mesmer with 3 phantasms up?
I don’t see anything that shows what happens when:

• The dungeon mechanics commonly “whoops” illusions to death
• Cleaving/AOE DPS is desired

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Yt0WNbgZkbn1W0Y89v7IatIujauTTQ3XbU1iTqRd7qc/

Import it into your google drive and have fun.

See the “Chart (——)” tabs for the graphs of the dmg/dps over time, including the ramp-up time. If you want to simulate phantasms dying, open a W/S/H/S (or whatever startup rotation you’re pushing to the graphs) and cut/trim the attack cycles from respective column (ie Phantasm -1 Warden column, delete all cells with time bigger than 10 sec, to simulate warden dying at 10s mark) and that will remove dmg source from that phantasms from that point on and onward (bleeds will still continue ticking, as expected).

Just be warned, every change to variables (stats, build, traits, etc) might take up to few minutes to calculate. The spreadsheet is very thorough.

Sebrent.3625:

Is that Mesmer DPS calculating the Mesmer with 3 phantasms up?
I don’t see anything that shows what happens when:

• The dungeon mechanics commonly “whoops” illusions to death
• Cleaving/AOE DPS is desired

I think I read something somewhere about it being calculated with 3 Phantasms up. I think….

And how often in various fights do you have up 3 Phantasms for the entirety of the fight?

We already know it won’t be for 100% of any fight because there is the “wind up” time where Mesmer has to summon all 3 phantasms.

If any phantasms get “whoops’d” to death, there’s additional time lost between when that “whoops” happens and the cast time for the phantasm … more time lost if summoning multiple phantasms, of course.

… and this still doesn’t touch on the scenarios where you need AOE/Cleave damage but most phantasms can’t.

Sure, phantasm damage in an ideal situation is comparable to other classes … even better than some … but there are many scenarios that are quite short of ideal for a Mesmer.

Now, that being said, Photoloss highlighted some example points as well that highlight how a Mesmer can be more flexible than others.

Those examples also highlight how it can be great on particular scenarios to have a Mesmer be the one doing the mechanic while others focus on DPS … because the Mesmer can still throw out Phantasms here and there to contribute DPS while they do whatever the mechanic requires … a % of a Mesmer’s DPS is better than 0% of another class’s DPS … another reason I enjoy my Ranger pets more than some others do.

Bloodgruve.6038:

I was recently clued into this Group DPS Calculator. Apperently this was calculated and verified in game.

Guard at its best is the lowest in the game, slightly lower then Mesmer at its best IIRC. The two classes sit around 10.8K DPS average in a full DPS spec where others top builds average ~13k DPS and up to Thief’s 15K+ not even counting Ele conjure weapon use.

6/4/0/0/4 Sword/Focus//Sword/Pistol w/Mantras puts up the best results for Mesmer using that calc.

What really sucks is that when Mesmer is using the top dps build our support isn’t very good either.

Hopefully HoT will balance this out a bit but I’m not holding my breath.

Calculator seems flawed, actually these are the latest guard numbers
here.