Guild Wars 2

Pyromeowthiest.

Cygnus.6903:

The entire original post does not invite real discussion IMO, but we can still try.

You mention mesmer now being able to do more damage from stealth then thief can. How can this be intended when thief is meant to be the assassination class?

I play mesmer, as well as thief and warrior. I am way more skilled at the other two, yet the rewards I claim as a mesmer are far greater then with either war or thief. This is coming from a wvw roaming perspective.

Currently, the skill floor is too low. The ceiling is still high, though.

A big flaw you have is right now Thief is kinda useless in any roaming situation or competitive besides +1 or decapping, unless you are running the Ghost Thief build, and if you are losing using that build you have other issues, Thieves have been nerfed to near oblivion except for niche mobility, so comparing that class to mesmer right now is useless, when they have nothing else going for them.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

A big flaw you have is right now Thief is kinda useless in any roaming situation or competitive besides +1 or decapping, unless you are running the Ghost Thief build, and if you are losing using that build you have other issues, Thieves have been nerfed to near oblivion except for niche mobility, so comparing that class to mesmer right now is useless, when they have nothing else going for them.

Well I can see what you mean, thief is quite underpowered right now. In roaming, however, with the exceptional power of stealth, they are still prefectly viable in my opinion.

The thing I tried to make clear is that in the past, thief has had nerf over nerf trying to tone down the damage, especially the backstab (or CnD/Heartseeker into backstab) variety. This was done because the devs said there was too little reaction time for a player to do something about the instant stealth damage. Right now, Mesmer has exactly that, and arguably worse (because you get insane control to make sure the combo lands). Even if the target is tanky, you can simply chip some of their HP away with phantasms or GS auto-attacks combined with Air/Fire (from 1200 range, unreflectable). Get ’m down to ~60% HP=profit.

As much as I love how the class plays (the amount of control, the shatters, Chronomancer, reflects, stealth), it just seems so incredibly powerful compared to the other classes in which I have a lot of experience. I have roamed all three since launch, but never have I been able to do what I can do right now on Mesmer, and, honestly, that’s without breaking a sweat. I consider myself no more then average at it.

I don’t know how it is in PvP as I stopped playing that quite some time ago. I realise that with stuff like guard stacks, food buffs, etc., WvW is not the most suited testing ground for determining ‘overpoweredness’, but that doesn’t mean WvW, even the roaming scene, should be dominated so easily by any one class or spec.

That being said, conditions, in any way shape or form, are still worse. Complete imbalance when it comes to skill required vs payoff. Funny enough, PU condi mesmer is the worst offender in this regard as well.

Hey Chaos Archangel I hope you don’t mind that I linked to this post in reddit to increase the visibility of this thread.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/3prvjy/mesmer_is_op_facts_vs_fiction/

Cygnus.6903:

The entire original post does not invite real discussion IMO, but we can still try.

You mention mesmer now being able to do more damage from stealth then thief can. How can this be intended when thief is meant to be the assassination class?

I play mesmer, as well as thief and warrior. I am way more skilled at the other two, yet the rewards I claim as a mesmer are far greater then with either war or thief. This is coming from a wvw roaming perspective.

Currently, the skill floor is too low. The ceiling is still high, though.

While we’re highlighting the problems we have, and though Ross already called the point, this is kind of a deal with your post.

WvW roaming is not a valid measuring stick for mesmer balance, because it’s not an intended segment of play. Of all the areas of the game that the devs have tried to balance, it should be clear that WvW roaming is absolutely not balanced at all. The only builds that succeed are builds like DD ele, thief and mesmer that can engage multiple players and get away with their lives (ele because loltankdps, thief and mesmer because stealth lets them escape), or move fast enough to engage/disengage at will (nike warriors). This is because WvW inherently encourages travelling in groups, so any solo roamer will get munched by any 2-group roamers of equivalent skill, and so on.

Mesmers are among the few successful roamers simply by virtue of having one of the few mechanics that can make it actually work. That’s a “low skill floor” only because anyone you meet who tries to solo roam is starting at a disadvantage against you. The devs haven’t adjusted for this much (though they did just nerf PU, have you played it since then?) because they just don’t care much about people trying to wander the borderlands alone.

But if you take that into pve, or spvp, you’ll find that it’s not actually that low of a floor. In fact, just learning mesmer has been much harder than just learning warrior, guardian, ranger, and thief right off the top, because the mechanics aren’t any less complicated now that mesmers are powerful.

It seems to me that people hate Thief and Mesmer because both classes can by pass an implicit rule in game which govern the behaviors of other professions, i.e. both classes can unload burst damage at players’ will without keep staying within 240 range radius. Even though GW2 don’t have hard trinity, the design of weapon damages rewards flight in melee distance. For weapons based on the power stat, the difference in damages from 1200 range and 240 range are huge. Meanwhile, 900 range weapons usually come with condition components. As a result, players run power builds have to flight at 240 range to get their optimal damage. Those people perceive Thief and Mesmer op because both can unload burst the moment they just appear within the 240 radius and willingly disengage when the flight not in their favor. They feel unfair even though both classes in fact have lower overall dps in comparing to the others.

This goes back to the point that GW2 is designed with group flight in mind and not balance around 1v1.

The introduction of Revenants seems to be ANet attempt to address this problem. Shiro stance add high mobility to heavy armor class. Even 1h sword melee AA originally have range component but now removed because player feedbacks.

It is sad people just look at their build and push it farther rather than look at the rules which govern the whole game.

Chaos~ Just wondering if you’re still updating Lyssa’s Grimoire~?

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Cygnus.6903:

The entire original post does not invite real discussion IMO, but we can still try.

You mention mesmer now being able to do more damage from stealth then thief can. How can this be intended when thief is meant to be the assassination class?

I play mesmer, as well as thief and warrior. I am way more skilled at the other two, yet the rewards I claim as a mesmer are far greater then with either war or thief. This is coming from a wvw roaming perspective.

Currently, the skill floor is too low. The ceiling is still high, though.

A big flaw you have is right now Thief is kinda useless in any roaming situation or competitive besides +1 or decapping, unless you are running the Ghost Thief build, and if you are losing using that build you have other issues, Thieves have been nerfed to near oblivion except for niche mobility, so comparing that class to mesmer right now is useless, when they have nothing else going for them.

I do not agree about thief being useless. Bottom line is last WTS, every team ran thief and one thief won the MVP award. Majority of ESL teams still run thieves. It might be true that in the coming expansion due to the abundance of reveal and other forms of support from chrono and scrapper, thief maybe phased out but we have to wait to see.

You are also taking the ‘besides +1 or decapping’ too lightly. This is actually a big part of sPvP. sPvP is all about rotation and create favorable matchups for your team. Thief also boost up the other bursty spec greatly in a coordinated team. As a mesmer, a good thief teammate will make your burst way more scary. The only other profession that might have similar potential is engi.

At the end of the day, thief is still the best ganker in the game, most capable of dealing kill blow. Provide the best stealth shelter for teammates. Have very good survivability and good synergy with many other professions.

Exciton.8942:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Cygnus.6903:

The entire original post does not invite real discussion IMO, but we can still try.

You mention mesmer now being able to do more damage from stealth then thief can. How can this be intended when thief is meant to be the assassination class?

I play mesmer, as well as thief and warrior. I am way more skilled at the other two, yet the rewards I claim as a mesmer are far greater then with either war or thief. This is coming from a wvw roaming perspective.

Currently, the skill floor is too low. The ceiling is still high, though.

A big flaw you have is right now Thief is kinda useless in any roaming situation or competitive besides +1 or decapping, unless you are running the Ghost Thief build, and if you are losing using that build you have other issues, Thieves have been nerfed to near oblivion except for niche mobility, so comparing that class to mesmer right now is useless, when they have nothing else going for them.

I do not agree about thief being useless. Bottom line is last WTS, every team ran thief and one thief won the MVP award. Majority of ESL teams still run thieves. It might be true that in the coming expansion due to the abundance of reveal and other forms of support from chrono and scrapper, thief maybe phased out but we have to wait to see.

You are also taking the ‘besides +1 or decapping’ too lightly. This is actually a big part of sPvP. sPvP is all about rotation and create favorable matchups for your team. Thief also boost up the other bursty spec greatly in a coordinated team. As a mesmer, a good thief teammate will make your burst way more scary. The only other profession that might have similar potential is engi.

At the end of the day, thief is still the best ganker in the game, most capable of dealing kill blow. Provide the best stealth shelter for teammates. Have very good survivability and good synergy with many other professions.

If a point has a defender if it’s not another thief it will most likely end with the thief having to run away or die trying to Decap the point. The argument that thief has been meta since launch is only because of their mobility not their burst, +1ing is ok but any class can do that. Thieves are not the best Gankers, that’s a far cry from the truth.

I don’t like mesmers because good ones absolutely dumpster me when I try to run zerk haha.

In general coming from a different class perspective, I think that most of the people that cry that “Mesmer is op” is because the tools they have are very frustrating to deal with and can feel very unfair if one doesn’t know what is happening.

Of course one can learn, but think about just the sheer screen clutter for instance when facing a Mesmer and it can be overwhelming especially if one is inexperienced.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Exciton.8942:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Cygnus.6903:

The entire original post does not invite real discussion IMO, but we can still try.

You mention mesmer now being able to do more damage from stealth then thief can. How can this be intended when thief is meant to be the assassination class?

I play mesmer, as well as thief and warrior. I am way more skilled at the other two, yet the rewards I claim as a mesmer are far greater then with either war or thief. This is coming from a wvw roaming perspective.

Currently, the skill floor is too low. The ceiling is still high, though.

A big flaw you have is right now Thief is kinda useless in any roaming situation or competitive besides +1 or decapping, unless you are running the Ghost Thief build, and if you are losing using that build you have other issues, Thieves have been nerfed to near oblivion except for niche mobility, so comparing that class to mesmer right now is useless, when they have nothing else going for them.

I do not agree about thief being useless. Bottom line is last WTS, every team ran thief and one thief won the MVP award. Majority of ESL teams still run thieves. It might be true that in the coming expansion due to the abundance of reveal and other forms of support from chrono and scrapper, thief maybe phased out but we have to wait to see.

You are also taking the ‘besides +1 or decapping’ too lightly. This is actually a big part of sPvP. sPvP is all about rotation and create favorable matchups for your team. Thief also boost up the other bursty spec greatly in a coordinated team. As a mesmer, a good thief teammate will make your burst way more scary. The only other profession that might have similar potential is engi.

At the end of the day, thief is still the best ganker in the game, most capable of dealing kill blow. Provide the best stealth shelter for teammates. Have very good survivability and good synergy with many other professions.

If a point has a defender if it’s not another thief it will most likely end with the thief having to run away or die trying to Decap the point. The argument that thief has been meta since launch is only because of their mobility not their burst, +1ing is ok but any class can do that. Thieves are not the best Gankers, that’s a far cry from the truth.

Being in meta exactly means thief is viable and clearly better than any other class in some important areas of this game mode. People are not like stupid and take thief to kitten their team.

If a point has a defender other than another squishy, the thief won’t engage. This has been true since like more than a year ago. But if you look at high-level play, it is also true for mesmer. They most likely won’t 1v1 a point if it has a defender. Not being able to 1v1 is not a strong case to justify something is unviable.

Thief is the best ganker because it has the best stealth and gap closer. No other class can do better in this category.

It is also wrong to say any class can do the +1. Some specs don’t have enough damage to win the +1 quickly. Some specs are too slow to rotate to a point to even create that +1. Some class can do both but won’t be able to chase down opponent. Mean thief can do all these.

Exciton.8942:

Being in meta exactly means thief is viable and clearly better than any other class in some important areas of this game mode. People are not like stupid and take thief to kitten their team.

So you’re agreeing that mesmer isn’t OP.

stop the chit chat and start downlouding the game 20 min to chorno opiness

messiah.1908:

stop the chit chat and start downlouding the game 20 min to chorno opiness

Shush you, let’s play and have fun before the knee-jerk nerf complaints start to flood in. I don’t want a repeat of the MtD nerf! xD

But I also think Anet won’t nerf any of the elite specs for at least 3-6 months in order to sell the expansion.

messiah.1908:

stop the chit chat and start downlouding the game 20 min to chorno opiness

112,000 files and a 2MB internet connection….yeah see ya some time after everyone has been nerfed in a week.

/cry.

Curunen.8729:

messiah.1908:

stop the chit chat and start downlouding the game 20 min to chorno opiness

Shush you, let’s play and have fun before the knee-jerk nerf complaints start to flood in. I don’t want a repeat of the MtD nerf! xD

But I also think Anet won’t nerf any of the elite specs for at least 3-6 months in order to sell the expansion.

i bet we will see some nerf sooner to the mesmer and thief classes

I made a wee little instructional :D

https://youtu.be/4whRdvVXtzw

Thanks OP, well laid out and easy to read outline of Mesmer, as someone who’s thought about changing to a Mesmer for a while now (Ranger main 3 years) I found your outline of the spec a great read.

Mesmer is OP.

-Signed S/F (yes marauder using) fresh air elementalist.

Why? Well i cant just make a claim like that without any personal experiences can i?

As you have stated stealth literally one shots marauder using proffesions. This alone shows there is no reall dynamics going on between a mesmer and a marauder using proffesion because the mesmer just needs to hit his buttons correctly with no counterplays possible. In a competetive game this is not about being more skillfull then your opponent, but hitting an unstoppable combo 1 shotting someone.

This forces people to not play marauder on any class if theyr facing mesmers in multitude or even 1v1ing on point. This is bad. This causes stagnation.

Survival wise. I have seen multiple 1v1 dueling mesmers who focus on duels that literally have an impenetrable rotation. With dazes invurns teleports and a lazerpoint focus on dodgerolls to mitigate the remaining damage before he can do the rotate again. Whilst every daze that hits, opens up a potential burst from the mesmer. And the only openings you get are dodging the key dazes to do some counter damage wich are just not enough to burst down the mesmer intime since they dont have the lowest health.

What i ussually talk about when discussing mesmers is bringing up my own playstyle, fresh air.

If i compare the defences of a mesmer to the defences of fresh air, mesmer beats fresh air hands down. You could say stealth alone makes this possible. But in reality its the option to 1 shot spike a marauder class in a second. Versus the 4 second invurnerable an ele has access to on focus (when traited) on 33sec. The only other sustain fresh air has is blind spam. See the difference in utility? Fresh air has a lower base healthpool added to that. If i compare the cooldowns and active defences of a mesmer versus a fresh air you could say fresh air has an uptime of 70/80% defences, mesmer has close to 90%+ If traited.

If mesmer would have a delay ,inbetween skills, cast time on the burst the entire idea of instant spiking from stealth would be fixed. Because counterplays are possible. Just like thiefs are in atm, They burst a rediculous amount from stealth versus marauder, but if you react before the next finishing blow hits, you can blind him and force him to back off with your own spike because he has low health unlike mesmer.

Damagewise, sustain and raw burst DPS is around 30% higher then scepter fresh air.

If you want people like me (s/f QQ eles) to stop QQ, get an actuall scepter buff in for us, i know with our powers combined as the mages of gw2 we could make the world tremble. But as it stands now fighting a mesmer 1v1 as a fresh air is simply unfair.

ErazorZ.5209:

Mesmer is OP.

-Signed S/F (yes marauder using) fresh air elementalist.

Why? Well i cant just make a claim like that without any personal experiences can i?

As you have stated stealth literally one shots marauder using proffesions. This alone shows there is no reall dynamics going on between a mesmer and a marauder using proffesion because the mesmer just needs to hit his buttons correctly with no counterplays possible. In a competetive game this is not about being more skillfull then your opponent, but hitting an unstoppable combo 1 shotting someone.

This forces people to not play marauder on any class if theyr facing mesmers in multitude or even 1v1ing on point. This is bad. This causes stagnation.

Survival wise. I have seen multiple 1v1 dueling mesmers who focus on duels that literally have an impenetrable rotation. With dazes invurns teleports and a lazerpoint focus on dodgerolls to mitigate the remaining damage before he can do the rotate again. Whilst every daze that hits, opens up a potential burst from the mesmer. And the only openings you get are dodging the key dazes to do some counter damage wich are just not enough to burst down the mesmer intime since they dont have the lowest health.

What i ussually talk about when discussing mesmers is bringing up my own playstyle, fresh air.

If i compare the defences of a mesmer to the defences of fresh air, mesmer beats fresh air hands down. You could say stealth alone makes this possible. But in reality its the option to 1 shot spike a marauder class in a second. Versus the 4 second invurnerable an ele has access to on focus (when traited) on 33sec. The only other sustain fresh air has is blind spam. See the difference in utility? Fresh air has a lower base healthpool added to that. If i compare the cooldowns and active defences of a mesmer versus a fresh air you could say fresh air has an uptime of 70/80% defences, mesmer has close to 90%+ If traited.

If mesmer would have a delay ,inbetween skills, cast time on the burst the entire idea of instant spiking from stealth would be fixed. Because counterplays are possible. Just like thiefs are in atm, They burst a rediculous amount from stealth versus marauder, but if you react before the next finishing blow hits, you can blind him and force him to back off with your own spike because he has low health unlike mesmer.

Damagewise, sustain and raw burst DPS is around 30% higher then scepter fresh air.

If you want people like me (s/f QQ eles) to stop QQ, get an actuall scepter buff in for us, i know with our powers combined as the mages of gw2 we could make the world tremble. But as it stands now fighting a mesmer 1v1 as a fresh air is simply unfair.

Okay, your build gets wrecked by mesmer 1v1 (ignoring any claims of fact vs fiction regarding your analysis).
As a fresh air ele, how’s your teamfight utility?
Were you aware that mesmers are garbage in team fights?

Between you who gets wrecked by the mesmer 1v1, and the mesmer who gets wrecked 3v3+, which of your builds do you think is contributing more in an average ranked match?

Given that “overpowered” by definition says they shouldn’t be that powerful, don’t you think that should depend on victory conditions, not specific build matchups?

It’s not a fighter game we’re playing. Sagat doesn’t need to be competitive with Ryu, and Ken doesn’t need to be able to beat M. Bison. 1v1 is a piece of the balance, but it is only one piece. Your anecdotal evidence took no account of the context, only assuming that 1 mesmer build being stronger 1v1 than 1 ele build meant mesmer should be nerfed (that’s what “OP” really means, remember?)

Edit: Also, lolscepter. Scepter being underpowered does not make mesmer overpowered. Your logic is faulty, and it’s dishonest to start with a faulty conclusion to try to galvanize non-ele players into supporting your ele buff cause.
Offer to advocate on behalf of mesmer scepter, and I’ll consider advocating on behalf of ele scepter.

ErazorZ.5209:

Mesmer is OP.

-Signed S/F (yes marauder using) fresh air elementalist.

Why? Well i cant just make a claim like that without any personal experiences can i?

As you have stated stealth literally one shots marauder using proffesions. This alone shows there is no reall dynamics going on between a mesmer and a marauder using proffesion because the mesmer just needs to hit his buttons correctly with no counterplays possible. In a competetive game this is not about being more skillfull then your opponent, but hitting an unstoppable combo 1 shotting someone.

This forces people to not play marauder on any class if theyr facing mesmers in multitude or even 1v1ing on point. This is bad. This causes stagnation.

Survival wise. I have seen multiple 1v1 dueling mesmers who focus on duels that literally have an impenetrable rotation. With dazes invurns teleports and a lazerpoint focus on dodgerolls to mitigate the remaining damage before he can do the rotate again. Whilst every daze that hits, opens up a potential burst from the mesmer. And the only openings you get are dodging the key dazes to do some counter damage wich are just not enough to burst down the mesmer intime since they dont have the lowest health.

What i ussually talk about when discussing mesmers is bringing up my own playstyle, fresh air.

If i compare the defences of a mesmer to the defences of fresh air, mesmer beats fresh air hands down. You could say stealth alone makes this possible. But in reality its the option to 1 shot spike a marauder class in a second. Versus the 4 second invurnerable an ele has access to on focus (when traited) on 33sec. The only other sustain fresh air has is blind spam. See the difference in utility? Fresh air has a lower base healthpool added to that. If i compare the cooldowns and active defences of a mesmer versus a fresh air you could say fresh air has an uptime of 70/80% defences, mesmer has close to 90%+ If traited.

If mesmer would have a delay ,inbetween skills, cast time on the burst the entire idea of instant spiking from stealth would be fixed. Because counterplays are possible. Just like thiefs are in atm, They burst a rediculous amount from stealth versus marauder, but if you react before the next finishing blow hits, you can blind him and force him to back off with your own spike because he has low health unlike mesmer.

Damagewise, sustain and raw burst DPS is around 30% higher then scepter fresh air.

If you want people like me (s/f QQ eles) to stop QQ, get an actuall scepter buff in for us, i know with our powers combined as the mages of gw2 we could make the world tremble. But as it stands now fighting a mesmer 1v1 as a fresh air is simply unfair.

Shatter Mesmer hard-counters Fresh Air Ele (due to the single-target nature of Ele Scepter against stealthy opponent) and Mesmer GS penetrate Focus projectile defense.

Having agreed with you on this point. However, this is NOT indicative of your initial statement “Mesmer is OP”.

Hard counters to certain builds exist in this game and its a natural thing. Most obvious reason: just look at our love/hate relationship with thieves.

I will enjoy playing Fresh Air Tempest knowing my build weakness against Shatter Mesmer and try to adapt my playstyle, focusing on more team support and my role in a team fight (where it matters), rather than getting sore and all losing 1v1 with against hard counter build.

“Chronomancer is OP” – Facts vs Fiction

We all new this would happen. We just didn’t know when. Less than 24 hours after the expansion was released, a member of the guild wars community, claiming to main revenant, had the audacity to create a chronomancer nerf thread in the pvp forums. However, this is not about the particular thread, or the individual who posted it. It is about the vast swarms of people who are inevitably going to post these types of threads. Like the mesmer, many, if not all of them, are going to be full of biased opinions supported fallacious or defective arguments. While I would not want the chronomancer to dominate the pvp landscape, I also don’t want skills or traits nerfed due to unjustified complaints. For those who have played pvp after the expansion’s release, it is probably not hard to realize how the current meta and balance is changing at an alarming rate. With the elite specializations released, damage is much higher. There are new skills, new abilities, and new techniques. Therefore, my opinions have changed between the betas and release. They will also continue to change as we learn more about how the specializations settle down.

Throughout the first day of release, I have played quite a bit of pvp. What I have noticed is that while the chronomancer’s shield has nice defensive capabilities, they do not make you an invincible powerhouse. For example, when playing organized team fights, two high dps classes, like reapers or revenants, may simply wait patiently until the shield’s block is over. If competent opponents know the shield’s cooldown, it is not hard to time and coordinate the attack. With the amount of damage in the current pvp scene, I have been downed from 100% health to 0 fast enough that I was unable to use Deja Vu to save me after Echo of memory. At the same time, while people have complained about the chronomancer’s shield, the scrapper can regenerate health at an alarming rate while at the same time dishing out a lot of damage. To put it simply, the arguments that state the chronomancer cannot both have good shield block abilities and do a lot of damage is ludicrous. In fact, they need skills like this just to stay alive. While this may have been a respectable view before the expansion, the meta changed to to point where many classes do have good defensive abilities while doing a lot of damage. Not only this, but many classes may need more defense to stand up to how much more damage the specializations and revenants offer. Personally, after the release, I believe many of the traits and skills of other classes could be tuned down and the chronomancer’s shield would still not be considered op compared to them. Yes, of course the chronomancer is very powerful compared to the baseline classes. However, Anet will never be able to balance the elite specializations to the level of the base classes. They can only hope to balance the elite specializations with each other.

The same may be said about gravity well. It can potentially be very powerful. However, it is an ELITE skill. Elite skills are suppose to be powerful. Based on my experience, unless you make sure the opponent has no stability or dodges left, gravity well will be wasted (never mind daredevils, gravity well may never be useful against daredevils). You must bate out those dodges before you can place gravity well so they can’t dodge it. The only problem with this is that baiting out all their dodges also leaves them open so that you can land a shatter instead of using gravity well . . . . which you would use so that you can land a shatter. Is it useful, yes. Is it op for an elite skill, no, at least I don’t think so.

So, what are you’re opinions about op chronomancer, fact vs fiction? What do you think about the shield’s block ability and gravity well? Are any of the chronomancer’s skills, traits, or abilities so strong that they make the chronomancer op compared to the other elite specializations?