Guild Wars 2

see this thread about Basilisk venom being unblockable and each thief can share it with all the team mates:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/unblockable-bassy-venom/first#post5923105

What’s the point of playing Mesmer again? ANet really want Mesmer to be out of the meta…

they just want to erase the mesmer
and they are doing it

It’s not written in stone yet, the devs said they’re open to change and everything is reversible/open for debate. Mesmer can still be good

Helseth has commented on this reddit thread, see below quote.

LordHelseth:
From my perspective mesmer will be completely unplayable provided that these notes are all the meaningful changes. Similiar to how warrior is in its current state right now, I can’t find a single justified reason to play shatter mesmer in pvp over thief, rev or necro.
Bunker mes is completely dead with quickness rez and alacrity nerf sso shatter is our onl hope. From what I’m theorycrafting shatter will be n such a pitiful state that it wont even be worth playing casually, might aswell reroll thief
It seems to me that arenanet is killing the chrono bunker mesmer because they don’t want ANY iteration of this build in pvp but my question then is what build do they want us to have? Shatter? Shatter was already not viable and inferior to thief/dh/rev before the patch. So if the bunker archetype is dead and shatter is unviable mesmer will have no spot whatsoever, which I feel might be intended by the devs because they simple have no idea how to balance it. Frankly, I don’t either. Portal is completely broken and so is moa and the effect of continum split along with those effects so it’s really hard to be viable without being mandatory.
Still sad that the class I’ve mained for so long is likely completely dead for half a year.

Link:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/416x1z/as_a_mesmer_main_for_years_i_am_not_too_fussed/

Rome.7124:

see this thread about Basilisk venom being unblockable and each thief can share it with all the team mates:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/unblockable-bassy-venom/first#post5923105

What’s the point of playing Mesmer again? ANet really want Mesmer to be out of the meta…

Before you embarrass yourself. To share that venom it has to be traited. Then that trait is a grandmaster in shadow-arts, so you have to choose between that trait and shadow-rejuvination, a trait that is stronger and was at least used in competitive pvp (or even normal) before. If I´m correct a normal shattermesmer would have one block (2 if something got blocked) in form of the shield. Saying that this unblockable venom (charges vanish with every missed attack) defines the end of mesmer is a bit overreacting, don´t you think?

Coronit.9432:

Rome.7124:

see this thread about Basilisk venom being unblockable and each thief can share it with all the team mates:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/unblockable-bassy-venom/first#post5923105

What’s the point of playing Mesmer again? ANet really want Mesmer to be out of the meta…

Before you embarrass yourself. To share that venom it has to be traited. Then that trait is a grandmaster in shadow-arts, so you have to choose between that trait and shadow-rejuvination, a trait that is stronger and was at least used in competitive pvp (or even normal) before. If I´m correct a normal shattermesmer would have one block (2 if something got blocked) in form of the shield. Saying that this unblockable venom (charges vanish with every missed attack) defines the end of mesmer is a bit overreacting, don´t you think?

Shield block is our only actual dedicated defense skill.

Every other defense skill we have, is used offensively

On top of that, prior to HoT, thief’s natural counter was a guardian. However, thieves now have something they can target.
They can kill a guardian when they go for their heal.

What counters thief now? Reaper? Maybe.
That’s the only thing I can think of.

It’s possible that a power Ele overloading air could really threaten a thief, but I don’t think ele’s going to be too viable in this meta either.

TheOneWhoSighs.7513:

Coronit.9432:

Rome.7124:

see this thread about Basilisk venom being unblockable and each thief can share it with all the team mates:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/unblockable-bassy-venom/first#post5923105

What’s the point of playing Mesmer again? ANet really want Mesmer to be out of the meta…

Before you embarrass yourself. To share that venom it has to be traited. Then that trait is a grandmaster in shadow-arts, so you have to choose between that trait and shadow-rejuvination, a trait that is stronger and was at least used in competitive pvp (or even normal) before. If I´m correct a normal shattermesmer would have one block (2 if something got blocked) in form of the shield. Saying that this unblockable venom (charges vanish with every missed attack) defines the end of mesmer is a bit overreacting, don´t you think?

Shield block is our only actual dedicated defense skill.

Every other defense skill we have, is used offensively

On top of that, prior to HoT, thief’s natural counter was a guardian. However, thieves now have something they can target.
They can kill a guardian when they go for their heal.

What counters thief now? Reaper? Maybe.
That’s the only thing I can think of.

It’s possible that a power Ele overloading air could really threaten a thief, but I don’t think ele’s going to be too viable in this meta either.

Every other defense skill we have, is used offensively

Very similar to thief, don´t you think?
Yes, basi would go through the heal block from shelter (DHs mostly use the trap-heal currently) BUT needs charging first. Its very risky to cast it open, so its a matter of situation to cast it and reach him. There was similar discussion with the use of basilisk-venom together with choking gas. Choking gas is unblockable, so casting venom and then the gas at someone blocking would interrupt. Mostly far to complicate and situational. No its easier, but guard definitly just counters thief cause of shelter. What is now possible is beeing stealthed, cast venom and get a backstab through aegis. But thats possible now with traited steal, too. Other uses like interrupt crystal hybernation from rev. Has some uses but never OP.
Rev is very tanky and the damage-version has on demand reveal. Engis has on demand reveal, Druid is a very strong 1vs1 class. That few buffs won´t make thief king of 1vs1 again. More reduce a bit the gap.
Thief-buffs are not any problem. People were overreacting before june-patch about OP-thieves and guess what? Afterwards most people complained about PU-mesmer.
I´m curious what it will be that time.
Keeping alacrity at leat on 50% should be ok. You must admit, 40% cd reduction on everything is kitten strong. on 33% still 25% (if math on the forum was done right).
The utility from chronomance added alot of utility, which wasn´t available pre-june. Even mesmer now has passive 25% speed. Than the passive 25%-reduction of immob, chill, cripple and reduced stun-duration when moa-passive is up. I doubt it gonna be like pre-june. People that got carriend through the bunker-specc gonna have to improve through.

Edit: That cd-reduction from alacrity is on 100% uptime, right? Someone knows how much reduction is it average on a normal shatter-chrono?

Coronit.9432:

TheOneWhoSighs.7513:

Coronit.9432:

Rome.7124:

see this thread about Basilisk venom being unblockable and each thief can share it with all the team mates:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/unblockable-bassy-venom/first#post5923105

What’s the point of playing Mesmer again? ANet really want Mesmer to be out of the meta…

Before you embarrass yourself. To share that venom it has to be traited. Then that trait is a grandmaster in shadow-arts, so you have to choose between that trait and shadow-rejuvination, a trait that is stronger and was at least used in competitive pvp (or even normal) before. If I´m correct a normal shattermesmer would have one block (2 if something got blocked) in form of the shield. Saying that this unblockable venom (charges vanish with every missed attack) defines the end of mesmer is a bit overreacting, don´t you think?

Shield block is our only actual dedicated defense skill.

Every other defense skill we have, is used offensively

On top of that, prior to HoT, thief’s natural counter was a guardian. However, thieves now have something they can target.
They can kill a guardian when they go for their heal.

What counters thief now? Reaper? Maybe.
That’s the only thing I can think of.

It’s possible that a power Ele overloading air could really threaten a thief, but I don’t think ele’s going to be too viable in this meta either.

Every other defense skill we have, is used offensively

Very similar to thief, don´t you think?
Yes, basi would go through the heal block from shelter (DHs mostly use the trap-heal currently) BUT needs charging first. Its very risky to cast it open, so its a matter of situation to cast it and reach him. There was similar discussion with the use of basilisk-venom together with choking gas. Choking gas is unblockable, so casting venom and then the gas at someone blocking would interrupt. Mostly far to complicate and situational. No its easier, but guard definitly just counters thief cause of shelter. What is now possible is beeing stealthed, cast venom and get a backstab through aegis. But thats possible now with traited steal, too. Other uses like interrupt crystal hybernation from rev. Has some uses but never OP.
Rev is very tanky and the damage-version has on demand reveal. Engis has on demand reveal, Druid is a very strong 1vs1 class. That few buffs won´t make thief king of 1vs1 again. More reduce a bit the gap.
Thief-buffs are not any problem. People were overreacting before june-patch about OP-thieves and guess what? Afterwards most people complained about PU-mesmer.
I´m curious what it will be that time.
Keeping alacrity at leat on 50% should be ok. You must admit, 40% cd reduction on everything is kitten strong. on 33% still 25% (if math on the forum was done right).
The utility from chronomance added alot of utility, which wasn´t available pre-june. Even mesmer now has passive 25% speed. Than the passive 25%-reduction of immob, chill, cripple and reduced stun-duration when moa-passive is up. I doubt it gonna be like pre-june. People that got carriend through the bunker-specc gonna have to improve through.

Edit: That cd-reduction from alacrity is on 100% uptime, right? Someone knows how much reduction is it average on a normal shatter-chrono?

“People that got carriend through the bunker-specc gonna have to improve through”

You mentioned a lot of things. Rev, thief, etc.

Allow me to ask you a fundamental question.

Why would you play mesmer over either thief or rev, if not for powerful alacrity and bunkering?

Portal? Thief and Rev are amazing at roaming without portal.

Thief already is able to cheese Chrono Shatter to death.

Rev already does more burst damage than Chrono. As well as more sustained damage.

Why would you pick Chrono over either of those?

TheOneWhoSighs.7513:

Coronit.9432:

TheOneWhoSighs.7513:

Coronit.9432:

Rome.7124:

see this thread about Basilisk venom being unblockable and each thief can share it with all the team mates:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/unblockable-bassy-venom/first#post5923105

What’s the point of playing Mesmer again? ANet really want Mesmer to be out of the meta…

Before you embarrass yourself. To share that venom it has to be traited. Then that trait is a grandmaster in shadow-arts, so you have to choose between that trait and shadow-rejuvination, a trait that is stronger and was at least used in competitive pvp (or even normal) before. If I´m correct a normal shattermesmer would have one block (2 if something got blocked) in form of the shield. Saying that this unblockable venom (charges vanish with every missed attack) defines the end of mesmer is a bit overreacting, don´t you think?

Shield block is our only actual dedicated defense skill.

Every other defense skill we have, is used offensively

On top of that, prior to HoT, thief’s natural counter was a guardian. However, thieves now have something they can target.
They can kill a guardian when they go for their heal.

What counters thief now? Reaper? Maybe.
That’s the only thing I can think of.

It’s possible that a power Ele overloading air could really threaten a thief, but I don’t think ele’s going to be too viable in this meta either.

Every other defense skill we have, is used offensively

Very similar to thief, don´t you think?
Yes, basi would go through the heal block from shelter (DHs mostly use the trap-heal currently) BUT needs charging first. Its very risky to cast it open, so its a matter of situation to cast it and reach him. There was similar discussion with the use of basilisk-venom together with choking gas. Choking gas is unblockable, so casting venom and then the gas at someone blocking would interrupt. Mostly far to complicate and situational. No its easier, but guard definitly just counters thief cause of shelter. What is now possible is beeing stealthed, cast venom and get a backstab through aegis. But thats possible now with traited steal, too. Other uses like interrupt crystal hybernation from rev. Has some uses but never OP.
Rev is very tanky and the damage-version has on demand reveal. Engis has on demand reveal, Druid is a very strong 1vs1 class. That few buffs won´t make thief king of 1vs1 again. More reduce a bit the gap.
Thief-buffs are not any problem. People were overreacting before june-patch about OP-thieves and guess what? Afterwards most people complained about PU-mesmer.
I´m curious what it will be that time.
Keeping alacrity at leat on 50% should be ok. You must admit, 40% cd reduction on everything is kitten strong. on 33% still 25% (if math on the forum was done right).
The utility from chronomance added alot of utility, which wasn´t available pre-june. Even mesmer now has passive 25% speed. Than the passive 25%-reduction of immob, chill, cripple and reduced stun-duration when moa-passive is up. I doubt it gonna be like pre-june. People that got carriend through the bunker-specc gonna have to improve through.

Edit: That cd-reduction from alacrity is on 100% uptime, right? Someone knows how much reduction is it average on a normal shatter-chrono?

“People that got carriend through the bunker-specc gonna have to improve through”

You mentioned a lot of things. Rev, thief, etc.

Allow me to ask you a fundamental question.

Why would you play mesmer over either thief or rev, if not for powerful alacrity and bunkering?

Portal? Thief and Rev are amazing at roaming without portal.

Thief already is able to cheese Chrono Shatter to death.

Rev already does more burst damage than Chrono. As well as more sustained damage.

Why would you pick Chrono over either of those?

Thats definitly the fundamental question. If alacrity-nerf is to much it needs to be buffed again immediatly. I want mesmer to be a viable choice.
Portal gets your team somewhere. Never underestimate that. Leaving portal on far binds a player there for the duration. Good portal-plays are amazing to watch.
Boon-strip with shatter is still there (I know its not as strong as it used to be :/ ).
double-moa can decide matches. Double-gravitiy still strong —> less bunkerish meta and no -quick-rezzes makes a strong-damage-CC-AOE better than now. The damage from it gets just healed in no second right now. No-durability → less boon-duration on many classes → more important to time your boon/boom-removes again?! A lot is very vague.
What do you mean with “cheese” him down? If you mean shadow-rejuvination and outstealthing I agree. PU was the same problem.

I would play my Mesmer if it wasn’t disgustingly potent. Didn’t touch it past 6/23 because one shots were just boring. Then HoT I was on Thief still, touched Mesmer’s (ahem, Chronomancer’s) “Chronobunker” build and was disgusted again. If its not faceroll easy, I will play it again. Honestly looking forward to nerfs, I need a light armor class to use (I play Warrior, Thief, and Ele. Hate ele, but…its less broken than Mesmer and people just hate whisper me 24/7 on Mesmer).

Reason to bring though, uh lets see. Slow, Quickness, Slow, Quickness, Near instant 25 might, near instant kills (or just instant…), aoe CC control, a free stun retaliation to backwards instagib Thief (Mirror of Anguish, Rage Sigil, Cry of Frustration, Mirror Image+Mirror Blade+Mind Wrack). An unblockable nuke to just agitate Revs in hybernation. A good method to shut down Necro’s who will be stupid strong again. Ele’s won’t be a problem still, if so I’ll just go condi.

No bunker amulets means Mesmer is a MAGE ASSASSIN. From 1200 range. Thief is from 1200 range, but has to combo you dead from 900 or less. 250 or so to be frank, because pistols are still utter trash.

If a rev hits you, they will be dealing far less damage so just same as Thief. Backwards instagib.

Serious Thought.5394:

No bunker amulets means Mesmer is a MAGE ASSASSIN. From 1200 range.

I could explain how your entire post was wrong, misleading, or just flat out amusing, but I’ll simply highlight this little bit instead, just as an exhibit on how wrong the entire thing is. If you think mesmer can do high burst from 1200 range, you obviously don’t play it very well.

Ok. See you on the next meta build. Inb4 greatsword usage? And I’m fine being wrong in theory when in gameplay I’m horrendously correct. Kind of like…now? If it makes you feel better that 1050 power/condi 560 vit/tough ammy will break stun warrior. But no one plays it, so no one will know. So you can be the bringer of the new warrior meta as well. But uh see my tag. I’m always always wrong, especially when im super wrong.

Serious Thought.5394:

Ok. See you on the next meta build. Inb4 greatsword usage? And I’m fine being wrong in theory when in gameplay I’m horrendously correct. Kind of like…now? If it makes you feel better that 1050 power/condi 560 vit/tough ammy will break stun warrior. But no one plays it, so no one will know. So you can be the bringer of the new warrior meta as well. But uh see my tag. I’m always always wrong, especially when im super wrong.

Coronit.9432:

TheOneWhoSighs.7513:

Coronit.9432:

TheOneWhoSighs.7513:

Coronit.9432:

Rome.7124:

see this thread about Basilisk venom being unblockable and each thief can share it with all the team mates:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/unblockable-bassy-venom/first#post5923105

What’s the point of playing Mesmer again? ANet really want Mesmer to be out of the meta…

Before you embarrass yourself. To share that venom it has to be traited. Then that trait is a grandmaster in shadow-arts, so you have to choose between that trait and shadow-rejuvination, a trait that is stronger and was at least used in competitive pvp (or even normal) before. If I´m correct a normal shattermesmer would have one block (2 if something got blocked) in form of the shield. Saying that this unblockable venom (charges vanish with every missed attack) defines the end of mesmer is a bit overreacting, don´t you think?

Shield block is our only actual dedicated defense skill.

Every other defense skill we have, is used offensively

On top of that, prior to HoT, thief’s natural counter was a guardian. However, thieves now have something they can target.
They can kill a guardian when they go for their heal.

What counters thief now? Reaper? Maybe.
That’s the only thing I can think of.

It’s possible that a power Ele overloading air could really threaten a thief, but I don’t think ele’s going to be too viable in this meta either.

Every other defense skill we have, is used offensively

Very similar to thief, don´t you think?
Yes, basi would go through the heal block from shelter (DHs mostly use the trap-heal currently) BUT needs charging first. Its very risky to cast it open, so its a matter of situation to cast it and reach him. There was similar discussion with the use of basilisk-venom together with choking gas. Choking gas is unblockable, so casting venom and then the gas at someone blocking would interrupt. Mostly far to complicate and situational. No its easier, but guard definitly just counters thief cause of shelter. What is now possible is beeing stealthed, cast venom and get a backstab through aegis. But thats possible now with traited steal, too. Other uses like interrupt crystal hybernation from rev. Has some uses but never OP.
Rev is very tanky and the damage-version has on demand reveal. Engis has on demand reveal, Druid is a very strong 1vs1 class. That few buffs won´t make thief king of 1vs1 again. More reduce a bit the gap.
Thief-buffs are not any problem. People were overreacting before june-patch about OP-thieves and guess what? Afterwards most people complained about PU-mesmer.
I´m curious what it will be that time.
Keeping alacrity at leat on 50% should be ok. You must admit, 40% cd reduction on everything is kitten strong. on 33% still 25% (if math on the forum was done right).
The utility from chronomance added alot of utility, which wasn´t available pre-june. Even mesmer now has passive 25% speed. Than the passive 25%-reduction of immob, chill, cripple and reduced stun-duration when moa-passive is up. I doubt it gonna be like pre-june. People that got carriend through the bunker-specc gonna have to improve through.

Edit: That cd-reduction from alacrity is on 100% uptime, right? Someone knows how much reduction is it average on a normal shatter-chrono?

“People that got carriend through the bunker-specc gonna have to improve through”

You mentioned a lot of things. Rev, thief, etc.

Allow me to ask you a fundamental question.

Why would you play mesmer over either thief or rev, if not for powerful alacrity and bunkering?

Portal? Thief and Rev are amazing at roaming without portal.

Thief already is able to cheese Chrono Shatter to death.

Rev already does more burst damage than Chrono. As well as more sustained damage.

Why would you pick Chrono over either of those?

Thats definitly the fundamental question. If alacrity-nerf is to much it needs to be buffed again immediatly. I want mesmer to be a viable choice.
Portal gets your team somewhere. Never underestimate that. Leaving portal on far binds a player there for the duration. Good portal-plays are amazing to watch.
Boon-strip with shatter is still there (I know its not as strong as it used to be :/ ).
double-moa can decide matches. Double-gravitiy still strong —> less bunkerish meta and no -quick-rezzes makes a strong-damage-CC-AOE better than now. The damage from it gets just healed in no second right now. No-durability -> less boon-duration on many classes -> more important to time your boon/boom-removes again?! A lot is very vague.
What do you mean with “cheese” him down? If you mean shadow-rejuvination and outstealthing I agree. PU was the same problem.

Leaving a portal on far with a thief on the enemy teams means the thief hops on you and forces you to portal back before you can do anything.

That’s reality.

Thief has a billion gap closers, and has every reason to focus a shatter mesmer.
And shatter mesmer loses to thief the moment it fails to 100-0 them.

What are you going to do? Distort? Use sword 2? Block?
Thief has answers to all of these. He just has to wait for you to use them, biding his time while he auto attacks you and dodges around. You can’t do enough damage back to him for it to matter until mind wrack is up.
And by then, all of your defense will be gone. You’ll have blown your dodges defensively. And the moment he sees you switch to greatsword, you’re dead.

What do you do?

No, seriously. What do you do?
Our literal only hope, is that rev counters thief.
Because Necro sure as hell won’t.

We don’t beat reaper out right. It’s a toss up, because reaper actually has the tools to kill mesmer quite easily.

But thief can kill reaper.

So our only hope, is that thief can’t kill rev, because that’s one of the few match-ups we actually win.

I’m still on board with getting bunkers out the door based on the game types for pvp… Not that this patch will actually accomplish that outside of a few specs.

However ultimately and selfishly I just want shatter to be viable and on par with thief.

Am I asking to much?

Daishi.6027:

I’m still on board with getting bunkers out the door based on the game types for pvp… Not that this patch will actually accomplish that outside of a few specs.

However ultimately and selfishly I just want shatter to be viable and on par with thief.

Am I asking to much?

I’m not cool with getting rid of bunkers.

I’m cool with bringing them on par with other builds. Making it to where they are what they are, a tank. That brings little else to the field.

Why anyone would praise killing build variety, is beyond me.

Like, we’ve been kittening for eons about lacking build variety, so the answer? Kill more builds.

And ANet has been doing that since launch. Step by step, killing builds.

Because that’s the answer.

I’ve said it before, I’ll say it now.

A game where everyone dies in 0.1 seconds is no more fun than a game where no one dies

I’m just gonna say now, D/P meta Shadow Shot (the strongest and most weapon-set-defining skill leading to the success of D/P) is already unblockable. BV on Shadow Shot already has the exact same potency and interruption potential for most thieves playing sPvP/those abiding to the D/P meta.

In regards to high-skill play, the only changes we should really see for BV are letting the thief get more damage in. This is scary not for interrupts but for reliability on say, Vault, which would then become an AOE unblockable nuke interrupt + gap close + evade when diving a team fight.

The thief’s interruption capabilities don’t really change much because the cast time on BV is about the same as most abilities’ cast times, if not longer. In order to get a meaningful “interrupt” on BV, the channel/cast needs to be > 1s + the reaction time needed for the thief to realize to cast BV + the duration of the necessary action and reaction of the thief player to close the gap.

Basically, you only need to be careful when a thief already has BV pre-casted. In which case, if you’re not getting interrupted, he’s not damaging you or really doing anything, since all thief abilities except for the bleed on dodge from Uncatchable and the confusion on Bewildering Ambush deal damage and thus will proc BV. If he’s damaging you, then he’s already lost the benefits to BV and you can do whatever channel/cast you feel while not taking the interrupt from BV.

I think Guardians will face huge issues regarding the changes more than the mesmer. Distortion and Blur are invuln effects and BV/unblockable skills subsequently do not penetrate invulns, and the charges still get depleted, plus the mesmer has a lot of disengage, and clones bodyblocking will also take charges. Any cleaving effects from the damage will also proc target-by-target with some tiebreaker conditions and not all simultaneously. Since guards rely so heavily on Aegis, have limited/poor disengage, and have a low-tier health pool, unblockable damage and CC in the form of backstab and the likes is much more potent to them. That said, DH directly hard-counters everything about the thief right now, so we’ll see if things get too out of hand.

As mesmers, I’d be worrying more about the 30% increase in damage per hit the MH dagger is getting due to PvE coefficients being sub-par and to keep MH dagger DPS competitive with the reworked sword. Clones are going to be very difficult to maintain with such big numbers.

As primarily a thief main (though I play D/D over D/P), I am worried about these changes. They’re not really what the thief needed (which was consistency across its weapon sets and some trait and utility changes to make its builds not be a massive cluster of “you need this or you will lose to anything”) and some slight tweaks (the class lacks meaningful utility in any sense of the word, so damage is about the only place with room for improvement on the current design core thief and Daredevil), and it might swing the balance of the game too heavily in favor of the thief in general, while not really fixing any fundamental issues the class is facing.

It’s definitely too soon to proclaim that the mesmer is now “food for thieves” – we don’t know the scope of the changes yet – and we also don’t know if this is okay. Changing away from the bunker meta puts a lot of power in the hands of the mesmer when fighting against most other classes. Go to smaller-scale WvW where the format features much higher offensive stats per unit of defense versus what is entailed in sPvP (DPS gear does astronomically more damage in WvW than in PvP, and defenses for tanks are similar), and the format rewards and puts emphasis on Chronomancers and mesmers, because they shut down a lot of other builds; they can burst harder than any other spec and offer a lot of team mobility and control of a fight, which depending on target prioritization, can swing the success of a fight massively. Since sPvP is taking a turn for offensive stats and removing pretty much the entire concept of the pure bunker tank, mesmers/chronomancers may potentially have a dramatic presence in high-skill groups for point control and counter-burst. Yes, the mesmer might end up being countered heavily by the thief, but so was D/D celestial ele by signet necromancer. I think we can all agree D/D celestial ele was definitively overly-strong, and that Signet necro wasn’t really a universally-amazing build. But signet necro definitely served its purpose and served it well. Obviously, nobody wants the mesmer to be OP, but if the thief counters the mesmer, and the mesmer can do well for itself in general, I’m not sure there’s a lot of room to complain. As long as things counter each other to a degree of fair limitations in the end (as DH and Scrapper aggressively counter the thief at the moment), we might be ultimately better off, and performances of each class can be rounded accordingly into the future.

I don’t want to be OP. Frankly, nobody should want to be OP in a game meant to be competitive and fun. Yes, I am concerned for the balance decisions being made by potential over-buffs to the thief in the wrong areas, but we’ll need to see how the game shifts in both its style of play and class composition to really make declarations about whether or not some classes can still be useful or if counters are too heavy-handed between classes.

@TheOneWhoSighs

You misinterpret my meaning. Tanky builds including bruisers do much more for the game types than other builds, I’m not outwardly promoting only damage builds.

Our current meta for conquest is supported by an abundance of low risk, low skill floor builds of that nature, and I have no problem seeing some of them go. I’m not saying to kill anything, and was not alluding to a tone of absolutes outside of my selfish desire for shatter chrono to be viable.

as you stated “A game where everyone dies in 0.1 seconds is no more fun than a game where no one dies” and I agree, along with your sentiment towards killing builds.

@DeceiverX, Excellent post, very level headed.

Serious Thought.5394:

I would play my Mesmer if it wasn’t disgustingly potent. Didn’t touch it past 6/23 because one shots were just boring. Then HoT I was on Thief still, touched Mesmer’s (ahem, Chronomancer’s) “Chronobunker” build and was disgusted again. If its not faceroll easy, I will play it again. Honestly looking forward to nerfs, I need a light armor class to use (I play Warrior, Thief, and Ele. Hate ele, but…its less broken than Mesmer and people just hate whisper me 24/7 on Mesmer).

Reason to bring though, uh lets see. Slow, Quickness, Slow, Quickness, Near instant 25 might, near instant kills (or just instant…), aoe CC control, a free stun retaliation to backwards instagib Thief (Mirror of Anguish, Rage Sigil, Cry of Frustration, Mirror Image+Mirror Blade+Mind Wrack). An unblockable nuke to just agitate Revs in hybernation. A good method to shut down Necro’s who will be stupid strong again. Ele’s won’t be a problem still, if so I’ll just go condi.

No bunker amulets means Mesmer is a MAGE ASSASSIN. From 1200 range. Thief is from 1200 range, but has to combo you dead from 900 or less. 250 or so to be frank, because pistols are still utter trash.

If a rev hits you, they will be dealing far less damage so just same as Thief. Backwards instagib.

Ehm, like every other class Mesmer can only have 3 trait lines equipped at the same time, not 5.

Curunen.8729:

@DeceiverX, Excellent post, very level headed.

I do my best. Unlike a bulk majority of the people I find playing the PvP formats in this game, I strive for wanting balanced and interesting gameplay rather than exploitive cheese demanding for more power because it’s not optimal at everything for the sake of bolstering a win rate and proclaiming “skill”.

Maxodon.5243:

Serious Thought.5394:

I would play my Mesmer if it wasn’t disgustingly potent. Didn’t touch it past 6/23 because one shots were just boring. Then HoT I was on Thief still, touched Mesmer’s (ahem, Chronomancer’s) “Chronobunker” build and was disgusted again. If its not faceroll easy, I will play it again. Honestly looking forward to nerfs, I need a light armor class to use (I play Warrior, Thief, and Ele. Hate ele, but…its less broken than Mesmer and people just hate whisper me 24/7 on Mesmer).

Reason to bring though, uh lets see. Slow, Quickness, Slow, Quickness, Near instant 25 might, near instant kills (or just instant…), aoe CC control, a free stun retaliation to backwards instagib Thief (Mirror of Anguish, Rage Sigil, Cry of Frustration, Mirror Image+Mirror Blade+Mind Wrack). An unblockable nuke to just agitate Revs in hybernation. A good method to shut down Necro’s who will be stupid strong again. Ele’s won’t be a problem still, if so I’ll just go condi.

No bunker amulets means Mesmer is a MAGE ASSASSIN. From 1200 range. Thief is from 1200 range, but has to combo you dead from 900 or less. 250 or so to be frank, because pistols are still utter trash.

If a rev hits you, they will be dealing far less damage so just same as Thief. Backwards instagib.

Ehm, like every other class Mesmer can only have 3 trait lines equipped at the same time, not 5.

I described a build with Domination, Chaos, and Chronomancer focusing on Blink and Greatsword plays. What did you think I was describing?

chews popcorn and watches as mesmers cry op because 1 (underpowered) skill became unblockable

Serious Thought.5394:

Maxodon.5243:

Serious Thought.5394:

I would play my Mesmer if it wasn’t disgustingly potent. Didn’t touch it past 6/23 because one shots were just boring. Then HoT I was on Thief still, touched Mesmer’s (ahem, Chronomancer’s) “Chronobunker” build and was disgusted again. If its not faceroll easy, I will play it again. Honestly looking forward to nerfs, I need a light armor class to use (I play Warrior, Thief, and Ele. Hate ele, but…its less broken than Mesmer and people just hate whisper me 24/7 on Mesmer).

Reason to bring though, uh lets see. Slow, Quickness, Slow, Quickness, Near instant 25 might, near instant kills (or just instant…), aoe CC control, a free stun retaliation to backwards instagib Thief (Mirror of Anguish, Rage Sigil, Cry of Frustration, Mirror Image+Mirror Blade+Mind Wrack). An unblockable nuke to just agitate Revs in hybernation. A good method to shut down Necro’s who will be stupid strong again. Ele’s won’t be a problem still, if so I’ll just go condi.

No bunker amulets means Mesmer is a MAGE ASSASSIN. From 1200 range. Thief is from 1200 range, but has to combo you dead from 900 or less. 250 or so to be frank, because pistols are still utter trash.

If a rev hits you, they will be dealing far less damage so just same as Thief. Backwards instagib.

Ehm, like every other class Mesmer can only have 3 trait lines equipped at the same time, not 5.

I described a build with Domination, Chaos, and Chronomancer focusing on Blink and Greatsword plays. What did you think I was describing?

I thought you tried to describe a viable build, but to get that with the skill and trait choices you mentioned, you would need atleast 2 additional trait lines.

Hey, what’s up. I hail from the thief forums, have never played mesmer, and have never set foot on these forums before.

While I think the unblockable buff was necessary, I was surprised to see the removal of bunker amulets on top of that, so I’d like to request some level headed insight from people who play the class.

Basi venom is a channeled buff that adds two unblockable strikes to the thief’s moveset(because, most likely, people are going to pick shadow rejuv over venomshare, and if you are outnumbered you should be dying anyway unless you’re the smoothest player in the world).

Why do two unblockable strikes make mesmer thief food? Is this in conjunction with the amulet removals? Because on my end it certainly doesnt seem like two strikes would constitute a game changer, when those strikes expire on whiff or interruption.

Please explain it as you would to someone who has not played the class, because I haven’t. I dont know the inner workings of the rotations for mesmer, but I do have a wiki, spectate on PVP and battle experience with them, so I think that I’d be able to sift something from an explanation.

Maxodon.5243:

Serious Thought.5394:

Maxodon.5243:

Serious Thought.5394:

I would play my Mesmer if it wasn’t disgustingly potent. Didn’t touch it past 6/23 because one shots were just boring. Then HoT I was on Thief still, touched Mesmer’s (ahem, Chronomancer’s) “Chronobunker” build and was disgusted again. If its not faceroll easy, I will play it again. Honestly looking forward to nerfs, I need a light armor class to use (I play Warrior, Thief, and Ele. Hate ele, but…its less broken than Mesmer and people just hate whisper me 24/7 on Mesmer).

Reason to bring though, uh lets see. Slow, Quickness, Slow, Quickness, Near instant 25 might, near instant kills (or just instant…), aoe CC control, a free stun retaliation to backwards instagib Thief (Mirror of Anguish, Rage Sigil, Cry of Frustration, Mirror Image+Mirror Blade+Mind Wrack). An unblockable nuke to just agitate Revs in hybernation. A good method to shut down Necro’s who will be stupid strong again. Ele’s won’t be a problem still, if so I’ll just go condi.

No bunker amulets means Mesmer is a MAGE ASSASSIN. From 1200 range. Thief is from 1200 range, but has to combo you dead from 900 or less. 250 or so to be frank, because pistols are still utter trash.

If a rev hits you, they will be dealing far less damage so just same as Thief. Backwards instagib.

Ehm, like every other class Mesmer can only have 3 trait lines equipped at the same time, not 5.

I described a build with Domination, Chaos, and Chronomancer focusing on Blink and Greatsword plays. What did you think I was describing?

I thought you tried to describe a viable build, but to get that with the skill and trait choices you mentioned, you would need atleast 2 additional trait lines.

Number one- VIABLE is described by YOUR capabiltiies. Meta is for scrub players who have no individual style. Play how you want is a real thing- its like in LOL: I couldn’t play Sej when she was meta, but I knew my Shaco and Evelynn were still strong. So I won the Cinderhulk Sejunai meta. Same here, Viable builds are you capability. Generally viable is meta, most effective tactics available- based on the basic playstyle for new/unexperienced players to pick up and coordinated teams to mesh together over voice chat. In solo Q, this means nothing.
Here’s my current Mesmer build- http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vhAQNAsfRnknBlphdqB2oBEgilTjiMAWggqOav2t1cH2mbA-TZBFABCcCAEvMAAPBAf2f4hDBAA
Granted, this is an odd and “weak” build but for me it works. I stun bomb teamfights then delete squishier players and heavily damage bunkers. When the squishies are alone (upcoming meta, hotjoin, RARE unranked/ranked) I one shot them with Prestige, Mantra, Mirror Blade+MirrorImage+wepswap into flurry+mind-wrack. I do not know who would use this besides me, but it works out well in my case. Pin down solos, destroy teamfights when I get 5 interrupts. Very nice stuff for me. I might…swap Chaos for that aoe confusion and the new Mercenary ammy I’ve been staring down. Anywho, this is the 30/30/30/30/30 or 6/6/6/6/6 or all-5-spec thing.

Serious Thought.5394:

Maxodon.5243:

Serious Thought.5394:

Maxodon.5243:

Serious Thought.5394:

I would play my Mesmer if it wasn’t disgustingly potent. Didn’t touch it past 6/23 because one shots were just boring. Then HoT I was on Thief still, touched Mesmer’s (ahem, Chronomancer’s) “Chronobunker” build and was disgusted again. If its not faceroll easy, I will play it again. Honestly looking forward to nerfs, I need a light armor class to use (I play Warrior, Thief, and Ele. Hate ele, but…its less broken than Mesmer and people just hate whisper me 24/7 on Mesmer).

Reason to bring though, uh lets see. Slow, Quickness, Slow, Quickness, Near instant 25 might, near instant kills (or just instant…), aoe CC control, a free stun retaliation to backwards instagib Thief (Mirror of Anguish, Rage Sigil, Cry of Frustration, Mirror Image+Mirror Blade+Mind Wrack). An unblockable nuke to just agitate Revs in hybernation. A good method to shut down Necro’s who will be stupid strong again. Ele’s won’t be a problem still, if so I’ll just go condi.

No bunker amulets means Mesmer is a MAGE ASSASSIN. From 1200 range. Thief is from 1200 range, but has to combo you dead from 900 or less. 250 or so to be frank, because pistols are still utter trash.

If a rev hits you, they will be dealing far less damage so just same as Thief. Backwards instagib.

Ehm, like every other class Mesmer can only have 3 trait lines equipped at the same time, not 5.

I described a build with Domination, Chaos, and Chronomancer focusing on Blink and Greatsword plays. What did you think I was describing?

I thought you tried to describe a viable build, but to get that with the skill and trait choices you mentioned, you would need atleast 2 additional trait lines.

Number one- VIABLE is described by YOUR capabiltiies. Meta is for scrub players who have no individual style. Play how you want is a real thing- its like in LOL: I couldn’t play Sej when she was meta, but I knew my Shaco and Evelynn were still strong. So I won the Cinderhulk Sejunai meta. Same here, Viable builds are you capability. Generally viable is meta, most effective tactics available- based on the basic playstyle for new/unexperienced players to pick up and coordinated teams to mesh together over voice chat. In solo Q, this means nothing.
Here’s my current Mesmer build- http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vhAQNAsfRnknBlphdqB2oBEgilTjiMAWggqOav2t1cH2mbA-TZBFABCcCAEvMAAPBAf2f4hDBAA
Granted, this is an odd and “weak” build but for me it works. I stun bomb teamfights then delete squishier players and heavily damage bunkers. When the squishies are alone (upcoming meta, hotjoin, RARE unranked/ranked) I one shot them with Prestige, Mantra, Mirror Blade+MirrorImage+wepswap into flurry+mind-wrack. I do not know who would use this besides me, but it works out well in my case. Pin down solos, destroy teamfights when I get 5 interrupts. Very nice stuff for me. I might…swap Chaos for that aoe confusion and the new Mercenary ammy I’ve been staring down. Anywho, this is the 30/30/30/30/30 or 6/6/6/6/6 or all-5-spec thing.

The guy who has been on this forum, openly stating he doesn’t play mesmer, is going to tell mesmer mains what’s viable.

I have literally ran multiple iterations of non-“meta” specs for Chrono.

They don’t work.

Lockdown is our best viable alternative to bunker (Shatter kittening sucks. Run 4 or 5 mind wracks into a reaper, and learn what I mean by how bad this actually sucks. WE HAVE NO SUSTAINED DAMAGE)

You know what counters lockdown?
THE 80000 STACKS OF STABILITY EVERY CLASS HAS NOW

Also, you’d be better off with scholar runes. Half a second of daze isn’t likely to make any significant difference.
10% damage on your first shatter against someone might. Doubtful though.

@Azure
“Why do two unblockable strikes make mesmer thief food?”

We’re already thief food. The basi venom just seals the deal. Attack us when we’re hurting (A.K.A. When we’re using shield, the only actual defense skill we have now other than distortion & sword 2) and kill us.

The reality though, is that thief, with its high damage, high mobility, and kitten tons of evades, already eats us alive on anything that isn’t the bunker spec.
You have 3 dodges, roll for initiative, the rolling heal (which is being buffed if I recall correctly), and vault/sword also evades.

You guys have more invulnerability than mesmer does now. And it’s also being made so that if I want to take you from 100-0, you’ll stop at 25% and evade everything I do for 2 seconds.

alchemyst.2165:

chews popcorn and watches as mesmers cry op because 1 (underpowered) skill became unblockable

TheOneWhoSighs.7513:

@Azure
“Why do two unblockable strikes make mesmer thief food?”

We’re already thief food. The basi venom just seals the deal. Attack us when we’re hurting (A.K.A. When we’re using shield, the only actual defense skill we have now other than distortion & sword 2) and kill us.

The reality though, is that thief, with its high damage, high mobility, and kitten tons of evades, already eats us alive on anything that isn’t the bunker spec.
You have 3 dodges, roll for initiative, the rolling heal (which is being buffed if I recall correctly), and vault/sword also evades.

You guys have more invulnerability than mesmer does now. And it’s also being made so that if I want to take you from 100-0, you’ll stop at 25% and evade everything I do for 2 seconds.

I’m going to give credit where credit is due.

Yes, Thieves eat non bunker mesmers.

That being said:

“You guys have more invulnerability than mesmer does now”

No.

“(A.K.A. When we’re using shield, the only actual defense skill we have now other than distortion & sword 2) "

Don’t do this. Don’t downplay distortion and sword 2 to make it seem like mesmers have less defense than they do. I know better than that, at least.

Level with me here. I’m tired of the silly balance see-saw, and I know that if I give in and go full jerkass with whatever inversion of power that is coming with the balance patch, Its only going to be six months long, so I’d rather things be settled out of the gate.

I will grant:

• There are a lot of dodges

• Non bunker mes is (probably) thief food.

We still have bunkerish amulets though. they just are not full bunker and require more active play instead of forcing slow death by attrition.

I’m looking for mechanical disadvantages, glaring imbalances that we can have ironed out promptly, from people who play the class and can manage winning with a playstyle that is a far cry from [insert every block possible here and wait out opponents hp bar].

I’ve lost to zerker shatter mesmers as a thief before; whether that makes me bad or them good idk, but I’m looking for solid arguing ground here, since the majority of people that are angry with thieves getting looked at after a 6 month period of uselessness (and those that believed we deserved it) played or main mesmer.

Azure The Heartless.3261:

I’ve lost to zerker shatter mesmers as a thief before; whether that makes me bad or them good idk, but I’m looking for solid arguing ground here, since the majority of people that are angry with thieves getting looked at after a 6 month period of uselessness (and those that believed we deserved it) played or main mesmer.

People forget so quickly about things -_-.

So raw 1v1 zerker shatter vs zerker thief is a fairly balanced matchup provided equal skill level. In a match, however, this is a problem. You bring a thief on your team to pick and kill high value targets, like a shatter mesmer or necros, that sort of thing. However, you bring a mesmer to provide hard aoe spike into a teamfight. If the mesmer is spending all their time dueling with a thief, it means that the thief is 100% fulfilling their role, and the mesmer is 100% failing at theirs. That’s why thief hardcounters any sort of glassy mesmer.

Azure The Heartless.3261:

TheOneWhoSighs.7513:

@Azure
“Why do two unblockable strikes make mesmer thief food?”

We’re already thief food. The basi venom just seals the deal. Attack us when we’re hurting (A.K.A. When we’re using shield, the only actual defense skill we have now other than distortion & sword 2) and kill us.

The reality though, is that thief, with its high damage, high mobility, and kitten tons of evades, already eats us alive on anything that isn’t the bunker spec.
You have 3 dodges, roll for initiative, the rolling heal (which is being buffed if I recall correctly), and vault/sword also evades.

You guys have more invulnerability than mesmer does now. And it’s also being made so that if I want to take you from 100-0, you’ll stop at 25% and evade everything I do for 2 seconds.

I’m going to give credit where credit is due.

Yes, Thieves eat non bunker mesmers.

That being said:

“You guys have more invulnerability than mesmer does now”

No.

“(A.K.A. When we’re using shield, the only actual defense skill we have now other than distortion & sword 2) "

Don’t do this. Don’t downplay distortion and sword 2 to make it seem like mesmers have less defense than they do. I know better than that, at least.

Level with me here. I’m tired of the silly balance see-saw, and I know that if I give in and go full jerkass with whatever inversion of power that is coming with the balance patch, Its only going to be six months long, so I’d rather things be settled out of the gate.

I will grant:

• There are a lot of dodges

• Non bunker mes is (probably) thief food.

We still have bunkerish amulets though. they just are not full bunker and require more active play instead of forcing slow death by attrition.

I’m looking for mechanical disadvantages, glaring imbalances that we can have ironed out promptly, from people who play the class and can manage winning with a playstyle that is a far cry from [insert every block possible here and wait out opponents hp bar].

I’ve lost to zerker shatter mesmers as a thief before; whether that makes me bad or them good idk, but I’m looking for solid arguing ground here, since the majority of people that are angry with thieves getting looked at after a 6 month period of uselessness (and those that believed we deserved it) played or main mesmer.

" Don’t downplay distortion and sword 2 to make it seem like mesmers have less defense than they do."

Literally every thief I’ve ever fought, has capitalized on sword 2 ending.
Sword 2 sucks, and it appears to have this after cast delay that prevents me from dodging immediately after it. So I usually end up ending it slightly early. Although, maybe that’s changed, or maybe I’m an idiot.

Distortion is for a grand total of 1 second.

So, assuming I have 2 dodges up (Unlikely, I probably used 1 offensively, and it’s likely not fully recharged yet) I have about 2 1/2 seconds of invuln at my disposal. + about half a second? of evasion. Lets call it a whole second for the sake of argument.

So 3 1/2 seconds of actually meaningful defense, while I wait for my 11 second cooldown. (Remember, energy sigil is being nerfed)

So, thief → 3 dodges = 1 1/2 seconds of evasion (Based off of what I said for mesmer)
Withdraw = 1/2 (Prob a bit longer) second of evasion
Roll for Initiative (Really strong when running staff, imho) = 1/2 second of evasion (Again, probably longer. But I’ll use the dodge estimate)
And you can spam 3 vaults on full initiative = 1 1/2 seconds of evasion. As well as damage

Comboing that properly, you should actually easily be able to get 6-7 vaults across that time.

But, lets go with minimum estimates, assuming you don’t know how to play your class.

1 1/2 + 1/2 + 1/2 + 1 1/2 = 4 seconds of evasion.

+ 2 seconds when you hit 25% health (post patch)

= 6 seconds of evasion, with minimum estimations, and using staff’s instead of D/D or S/D.

Literally twice mine. And you don’t have to wait 11 seconds for your next burst. Vault IS your burst.

This is not an even fight.
Shatter mesmer’s entire thing is about bursting and getting the kitten out of there. But you can’t run from a thief. Thief has too many gap closers.

So literally, to kill a thief.
I have to land my burst in between the very short evasion frames.

Or get a surprise 100-0.

All of which is even harder if someone’s running condi thief. Which is literally the bane of my existence.

Is it OP? Ofc not. Necro is better for condi.

But can anyone think of another spec for mesmer that even challenges condi thief?
Again, if I don’t 100-0 condi thief by surprise, it’ll annihilate me.

Too much poison & evades. Evades which also apply more bleeding, torment, and cripple…

If you lost to a mesmer, it doesn’t mean you’re a scrub. It means that mesmer managed to either 100-0 you, or miraculously survive to land a second burst.

Unless you died to sword autos. In which case, yeah, kind of a nub.

Fay.2357:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

I’ve lost to zerker shatter mesmers as a thief before; whether that makes me bad or them good idk, but I’m looking for solid arguing ground here, since the majority of people that are angry with thieves getting looked at after a 6 month period of uselessness (and those that believed we deserved it) played or main mesmer.

People forget so quickly about things -_-.

So raw 1v1 zerker shatter vs zerker thief is a fairly balanced matchup provided equal skill level. In a match, however, this is a problem. You bring a thief on your team to pick and kill high value targets, like a shatter mesmer or necros, that sort of thing. However, you bring a mesmer to provide hard aoe spike into a teamfight. If the mesmer is spending all their time dueling with a thief, it means that the thief is 100% fulfilling their role, and the mesmer is 100% failing at theirs. That’s why thief hardcounters any sort of glassy mesmer.

Which is fine in terms of imperfect balance I dunno why anything in this has to change.

Now with alacrity changes the worry is a lot of this might be thrown out with window with what essentially is a global nerf to cool downs.

I was one of those who even promoted thief buffs in the recent meta and personally I think good on them for the BV buff even if a little strong in paper but whatever so was CS.

With the previous nerf to shield+precog becoming an invuln to stop decap, and if they included the current amulet changes along with energy sigil changes plus the implementation of how quickness affects Rez. This would have been balanced enough to not have needed alacrity to be touched, and EVEN IF it did need a nerf a strait 50% cut form its initial effect seems overkill.

Daishi.6027:

I was one of those who even promoted thief buffs in the recent meta and personally I think good on them for the BV buff even if a little strong in paper but whatever so was CS.

With the previous nerf to shield+precog becoming an invuln to stop decap, and if they included the current amulet changes along with energy sigil changes plus the implementation of how quickness affects Rez. This would have been balanced enough to not have needed alacrity to be touched, and EVEN IF it did need a nerf a strait 50% cut form its initial effect seems overkill.

I’m glad you got your wish, clearly you dont have the best interest for Mesmers, so why dont you just go back to the thief or PvP forums and promote more buffs to other classes. Are you here to rub salt in the wound?

rchu.8945:

Daishi.6027:

I was one of those who even promoted thief buffs in the recent meta and personally I think good on them for the BV buff even if a little strong in paper but whatever so was CS.

With the previous nerf to shield+precog becoming an invuln to stop decap, and if they included the current amulet changes along with energy sigil changes plus the implementation of how quickness affects Rez. This would have been balanced enough to not have needed alacrity to be touched, and EVEN IF it did need a nerf a strait 50% cut form its initial effect seems overkill.

I’m glad you got your wish, clearly you dont have the best interest for Mesmers, so why dont you just go back to the thief or PvP forums and promote more buffs to other classes. Are you here to rub salt in the wound?

Not sure if trolling me but I’ll bite.

I have always fought for mesmer rights.

Although I do have an admitted bias towards mesmers, I have always wanted balance between ALL builds. Thief was pretty “meh” this meta, don’t take it out on me that A-net is going to over nerf us, I do not want that as much as any other mes.

When the match up between mes and thief became relatively balanced I was super ecstatic, but this is just depressing.

Some of you guys are acting like mesmer hasn’t always been one of the easier targets for a thief. The only things that changed that were some elements introduced in the chronomancer which are being toned down now, and rightly so. Oh and the generally awful state of the thief in the current meta.

I play a mesmer and we can’t deny that the chronomancer was vastly overpowered in some respects – especially compared to some of the more lackluster elite specs like daredevil and druid (imo). Even still, I do think the alacrity changes are absurd but that’s a different issue.

@Azure

Energy sigil nerf will be tough on mesmers using Deceptive Evasion – which is any build taking Duelling – mainly shatter builds.

Then look that personal condition removal is almost zero if not taking Inspiration, given most would not use a utility slot for null field/mantra of resolve.

But also, power (shatter, interrupt…) lose a lot of damage and utility without Domination (including boon strip). And similarly Illusions is mandatory for every condi build (which are all weak anyway – may as well reroll another class if wanting to play condi better).

There are a few bruiser options such as Domination/Inspiration/Chrono and Chaos/Inspiration/Chrono with offensive amulets such as Marauder but the latter has very weak/mediocre damage.

Then there is the issue of making shatters hit, given they are a huge source of damage – not to mention keeping illusions alive among all the cleave in order to set up a burst while also waiting out enemy evades/defensive skills. It is quite easy to dodge shatters as any other (ok the only class I’ve never played is necro, but I assume in this case the same thing applies and they can tank it anyway) class if you have played mesmer a lot. I know this in practice because most mesmer burst setup is predictable, just requires similar anticipation to thief burst.

Shield 4 will be less effective with BV buff, not to mention other classes unblockable skills. Offhand Focus and sword currently suck making pistol and torch the only decent options – but torch has pretty much zero damage and pistol has zero defence. So the only other defence is on the mainhand. Blurred frenzy is on a 12s cooldown and roots you – I’ve bursted many times on enemy mesmers with timing the blur to finish, unless they chain immediately into a dodge or other defensive skill. Scepter 2 is currently bad in anything outside of 1v1, but they may change that in the patch.

Greatsword has no defence and Staff only has rng aegis on chaos storm.

Given players not taking Duelling will also have pretty much no vigour, endurance regen will be slow..

Where I’m going with this is that mesmer defence is not as impregnable as many players think it is – there are in fact huge holes and trade-offs at every corner. Combine that with mediocre damage unless running all out Zerker (and condi mesmer sucks anyway) and you can see the shortcomings.

DD is pretty tough vs shatter mesmer currently anyway, so I don’t know how it may end up next week.

Edit: For the record, power shatter could kill thief in a duel situation before June 23rd (extra mirror blade bounce was nice) although it was a very tough fight and as pyro has said wasted the mesmers role in a match because they’d have to use 100% of defensive skills just to survive/kite, so no teamfight presence unless a teammate relieved the pressure. Shatter bursts are easy to land vs players unfamiliar with mesmer, but very difficult to land vs good/competent players who will cleave illusions and evade/block the burst.

TheOneWhoSighs.7513:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

TheOneWhoSighs.7513:

@Azure
“Why do two unblockable strikes make mesmer thief food?”

We’re already thief food. The basi venom just seals the deal. Attack us when we’re hurting (A.K.A. When we’re using shield, the only actual defense skill we have now other than distortion & sword 2) and kill us.

The reality though, is that thief, with its high damage, high mobility, and kitten tons of evades, already eats us alive on anything that isn’t the bunker spec.
You have 3 dodges, roll for initiative, the rolling heal (which is being buffed if I recall correctly), and vault/sword also evades.

You guys have more invulnerability than mesmer does now. And it’s also being made so that if I want to take you from 100-0, you’ll stop at 25% and evade everything I do for 2 seconds.

I’m going to give credit where credit is due.

Yes, Thieves eat non bunker mesmers.

That being said:

“You guys have more invulnerability than mesmer does now”

No.

“(A.K.A. When we’re using shield, the only actual defense skill we have now other than distortion & sword 2) "

Don’t do this. Don’t downplay distortion and sword 2 to make it seem like mesmers have less defense than they do. I know better than that, at least.

Level with me here. I’m tired of the silly balance see-saw, and I know that if I give in and go full jerkass with whatever inversion of power that is coming with the balance patch, Its only going to be six months long, so I’d rather things be settled out of the gate.

I will grant:

• There are a lot of dodges

• Non bunker mes is (probably) thief food.

We still have bunkerish amulets though. they just are not full bunker and require more active play instead of forcing slow death by attrition.

I’m looking for mechanical disadvantages, glaring imbalances that we can have ironed out promptly, from people who play the class and can manage winning with a playstyle that is a far cry from [insert every block possible here and wait out opponents hp bar].

I’ve lost to zerker shatter mesmers as a thief before; whether that makes me bad or them good idk, but I’m looking for solid arguing ground here, since the majority of people that are angry with thieves getting looked at after a 6 month period of uselessness (and those that believed we deserved it) played or main mesmer.

" Don’t downplay distortion and sword 2 to make it seem like mesmers have less defense than they do."

Literally every thief I’ve ever fought, has capitalized on sword 2 ending.
Sword 2 sucks, and it appears to have this after cast delay that prevents me from dodging immediately after it. So I usually end up ending it slightly early. Although, maybe that’s changed, or maybe I’m an idiot.

Distortion is for a grand total of 1 second.

So, assuming I have 2 dodges up (Unlikely, I probably used 1 offensively, and it’s likely not fully recharged yet) I have about 2 1/2 seconds of invuln at my disposal. + about half a second? of evasion. Lets call it a whole second for the sake of argument.

So 3 1/2 seconds of actually meaningful defense, while I wait for my 11 second cooldown. (Remember, energy sigil is being nerfed)

So, thief -> 3 dodges = 1 1/2 seconds of evasion (Based off of what I said for mesmer)
Withdraw = 1/2 (Prob a bit longer) second of evasion
Roll for Initiative (Really strong when running staff, imho) = 1/2 second of evasion (Again, probably longer. But I’ll use the dodge estimate)
And you can spam 3 vaults on full initiative = 1 1/2 seconds of evasion. As well as damage

Comboing that properly, you should actually easily be able to get 6-7 vaults across that time.

But, lets go with minimum estimates, assuming you don’t know how to play your class.

1 1/2 + 1/2 + 1/2 + 1 1/2 = 4 seconds of evasion.

+ 2 seconds when you hit 25% health (post patch)

= 6 seconds of evasion, with minimum estimations, and using staff’s instead of D/D or S/D.

Literally twice mine. And you don’t have to wait 11 seconds for your next burst. Vault IS your burst.

This is not an even fight.
Shatter mesmer’s entire thing is about bursting and getting the kitten out of there. But you can’t run from a thief. Thief has too many gap closers.

So literally, to kill a thief.
I have to land my burst in between the very short evasion frames.

Or get a surprise 100-0.

All of which is even harder if someone’s running condi thief. Which is literally the bane of my existence.

Is it OP? Ofc not. Necro is better for condi.

But can anyone think of another spec for mesmer that even challenges condi thief?
Again, if I don’t 100-0 condi thief by surprise, it’ll annihilate me.

Too much poison & evades. Evades which also apply more bleeding, torment, and cripple…

If you lost to a mesmer, it doesn’t mean you’re a scrub. It means that mesmer managed to either 100-0 you, or miraculously survive to land a second burst.

Unless you died to sword autos. In which case, yeah, kind of a nub.

Hold on. Distortion is good for only one second ? Is it not 1 second per clone shattered?

babazhook.6805:

TheOneWhoSighs.7513:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

TheOneWhoSighs.7513:

@Azure
“Why do two unblockable strikes make mesmer thief food?”

We’re already thief food. The basi venom just seals the deal. Attack us when we’re hurting (A.K.A. When we’re using shield, the only actual defense skill we have now other than distortion & sword 2) and kill us.

The reality though, is that thief, with its high damage, high mobility, and kitten tons of evades, already eats us alive on anything that isn’t the bunker spec.
You have 3 dodges, roll for initiative, the rolling heal (which is being buffed if I recall correctly), and vault/sword also evades.

You guys have more invulnerability than mesmer does now. And it’s also being made so that if I want to take you from 100-0, you’ll stop at 25% and evade everything I do for 2 seconds.

I’m going to give credit where credit is due.

Yes, Thieves eat non bunker mesmers.

That being said:

“You guys have more invulnerability than mesmer does now”

No.

“(A.K.A. When we’re using shield, the only actual defense skill we have now other than distortion & sword 2) "

Don’t do this. Don’t downplay distortion and sword 2 to make it seem like mesmers have less defense than they do. I know better than that, at least.

Level with me here. I’m tired of the silly balance see-saw, and I know that if I give in and go full jerkass with whatever inversion of power that is coming with the balance patch, Its only going to be six months long, so I’d rather things be settled out of the gate.

I will grant:

• There are a lot of dodges

• Non bunker mes is (probably) thief food.

We still have bunkerish amulets though. they just are not full bunker and require more active play instead of forcing slow death by attrition.

I’m looking for mechanical disadvantages, glaring imbalances that we can have ironed out promptly, from people who play the class and can manage winning with a playstyle that is a far cry from [insert every block possible here and wait out opponents hp bar].

I’ve lost to zerker shatter mesmers as a thief before; whether that makes me bad or them good idk, but I’m looking for solid arguing ground here, since the majority of people that are angry with thieves getting looked at after a 6 month period of uselessness (and those that believed we deserved it) played or main mesmer.

" Don’t downplay distortion and sword 2 to make it seem like mesmers have less defense than they do."

Literally every thief I’ve ever fought, has capitalized on sword 2 ending.
Sword 2 sucks, and it appears to have this after cast delay that prevents me from dodging immediately after it. So I usually end up ending it slightly early. Although, maybe that’s changed, or maybe I’m an idiot.

Distortion is for a grand total of 1 second.

So, assuming I have 2 dodges up (Unlikely, I probably used 1 offensively, and it’s likely not fully recharged yet) I have about 2 1/2 seconds of invuln at my disposal. + about half a second? of evasion. Lets call it a whole second for the sake of argument.

So 3 1/2 seconds of actually meaningful defense, while I wait for my 11 second cooldown. (Remember, energy sigil is being nerfed)

So, thief -> 3 dodges = 1 1/2 seconds of evasion (Based off of what I said for mesmer)
Withdraw = 1/2 (Prob a bit longer) second of evasion
Roll for Initiative (Really strong when running staff, imho) = 1/2 second of evasion (Again, probably longer. But I’ll use the dodge estimate)
And you can spam 3 vaults on full initiative = 1 1/2 seconds of evasion. As well as damage

Comboing that properly, you should actually easily be able to get 6-7 vaults across that time.

But, lets go with minimum estimates, assuming you don’t know how to play your class.

1 1/2 + 1/2 + 1/2 + 1 1/2 = 4 seconds of evasion.

+ 2 seconds when you hit 25% health (post patch)

= 6 seconds of evasion, with minimum estimations, and using staff’s instead of D/D or S/D.

Literally twice mine. And you don’t have to wait 11 seconds for your next burst. Vault IS your burst.

This is not an even fight.
Shatter mesmer’s entire thing is about bursting and getting the kitten out of there. But you can’t run from a thief. Thief has too many gap closers.

So literally, to kill a thief.
I have to land my burst in between the very short evasion frames.

Or get a surprise 100-0.

All of which is even harder if someone’s running condi thief. Which is literally the bane of my existence.

Is it OP? Ofc not. Necro is better for condi.

But can anyone think of another spec for mesmer that even challenges condi thief?
Again, if I don’t 100-0 condi thief by surprise, it’ll annihilate me.

Too much poison & evades. Evades which also apply more bleeding, torment, and cripple…

If you lost to a mesmer, it doesn’t mean you’re a scrub. It means that mesmer managed to either 100-0 you, or miraculously survive to land a second burst.

Unless you died to sword autos. In which case, yeah, kind of a nub.

Hold on. Distortion is good for only one second ? Is it not 1 second per clone shattered?

Gain distortion and destroy all your clones and phantasms, gaining additional distortion for each one shattered.
So it is 1 sec per clone shattered, but most mesmer (me included) won’t take the time to make three clones before using it since it’s pretty much our HOLY-kitten-CRAP-kitten emergency button.
When stab wasn’t as provided as it was, I even valued Cry of Frustration before distortion just in case of, if I happened to meet a stealthed thief along the way.

That’s totally a non-issue. Basilik Venom, even after the buff, will not be worth taking over Impact Strike, unless you play a funny build with Fist Flurry. You can see the icon, it’s only two attacks you need to avoid, and if you start your shield block, it will be over before the thief gets the time to charge the venom (1s cast).

In addition, I expect the current bunker mesmer to be a lot weaker after the 26th. So the best build we’ll get will certainly be shatter. And on a shatter mesmer, you don’t have a single block, since you typically play torch. So why all the fuss about this venom?

Sorel.4870:

So why all the fuss about this venom?

I believe the fuss is more about the whole set of changes than about venom specifically.
Basically the changes are forcing Mesmers back into the Shatter meta, but that was bad meta for Mesmer even before HoT, after HoT it will be in even worse situation.

Look at the team composition in the League right now and compare it with the situation before HoT. Before almost no Mesmers, now Mesmers on many teams, after …

Korusef.3714:

Sorel.4870:

So why all the fuss about this venom?

Look at the team composition in the League right now and compare it with the situation before HoT. Before almost no Mesmers, now Mesmers on many teams, after …

Actually, even before June, a couple of teams played with mesmers. Mime, Frostball, Helseth and Supcutie were all playing the profession at the highest level of play.

The difference was that back in the days you could play two different comps: a bunker comp with guardian or ele to hold points, with mesmer/thief to get kills quickly, or a bruiser comp a la Abjured.

You guys need to let go of the bunker mesmer build. It just can not exist on a profession with so much mobility. If we want every profession to be viable in pvp, they need to have different roles. The bunker mesmer was a problem because it basically killed the burst strategy completely, and as a result everyone was playing the exact same comp.

I’m glad we’re back to shatter mesmer. If I want to play a bruiser build, there is at least three other professions I could turn to. When I play my mesmer, I want it to feel different.

Sorel.4870:

Korusef.3714:

Sorel.4870:

So why all the fuss about this venom?

Look at the team composition in the League right now and compare it with the situation before HoT. Before almost no Mesmers, now Mesmers on many teams, after …

Actually, even before June, a couple of teams played with mesmers. Mime, Frostball, Helseth and Supcutie were all playing the profession at the highest level of play.

The difference was that back in the days you could play two different comps: a bunker comp with guardian or ele to hold points, with mesmer/thief to get kills quickly, or a bruiser comp a la Abjured.

You guys need to let go of the bunker mesmer build. It just can not exist on a profession with so much mobility. If we want every profession to be viable in pvp, they need to have different roles. The bunker mesmer was a problem because it basically killed the burst strategy completely, and as a result everyone was playing the exact same comp.

I’m glad we’re back to shatter mesmer. If I want to play a bruiser build, there is at least three other professions I could turn to. When I play my mesmer, I want it to feel different.

I think majority of ppl here agree bunker mesmer is problematic to the game and needs shaving. But does that mean we should have an n-fold nerfs from all directions to this spec.

Such hard nerfs will result in not only the death of any possible support-orientated mesmer builds, but also affects the effectiveness and variety for our burst damage builds which are already inferior to Rev, engi and DH.