No core profession should be balanced around an optional elite specialization.
(edited by Dadnir.5038)
Mesmer literally 1/6th dps of other classes
That being said, as it stands, there really isn’t all that much ArenaNet can do to give us the option to deal comparative DPS in a way that forces us to drop our utility (especially utility of the offensive kind, such as alacrity and quickness). If they buff either of our offensive trait lines like Domination and Dueling, there’s nothing stopping us from taking those trait lines along with Chronomancer and having better DPS while still being awesome support gods of timey wimey stuff.
Point is, Chronomancer is like 80 – 90% of our group DPS buffing, so if we’re not forced to drop that trait line for better DPS
So this is why I think the damage modifier changes would work well: Runes, sigils and food also affect chrono buffs. Rune of chrono is a big part of group quickness but prevents scholar bonus. Sigil of concentration prevents use of force and accuracy(or night/slaying for dungeons) at the same time. 20% boon duration food is mutually exclusive with 10% salad or other DPS stat food.
Domination has 15% and then another 12.5% vs vuln.
Dueling has p.fury, 15% and 150 ferocity and requires spamming MoP.
Illusions has phantasmal haste and 9%Chrono and inspiration are both used in the support build. It’s about the choice of picking all 3 DPS trait lines and DPS gear or only being able to pick one DPS traitline and support gear. If all those modifiers affected phantasms: (1.125*1.15*1.09*1.05*1.07*1.1*1.1=90% more phantasms DPS) and then also p.Fury and p.Haste and ferocity need to be factored in for around a ~150% more phantasm damage that wouldn’t be available in chrono support build. This isn’t including grace of the land and other team buffs that aren’t raw stats.
Summon 1 duelist and 2 swordsman with this build in the DPS testing with the most basic off buffs (vuln, might and banners)
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vhAQRAra88msICloBUrhFVDqsDlYAkBYE7EtLpJKA-TBBXgA9q/As/o8LU/wjSQSBMwYA-e
About 7.8k dps for just phantasms. 7.8k * 2.5 = 19.5k dps from just the phantasm. Add some auto attacks, sc 3 and MoP spam and it wouldn’t be half bad and you hit about 30k in the most selfish mesmer DPS build. Add party buffs like spotter and grace of the land affecting phantasms too and the Mesmer now has a good DPS build that is selfish. Could theoretically go higher with staff phantasms and enough conditions. No major rework to separate PvP, WvW and PvE. Mutually exclusive with the chrono support build.Personally I’d rather they didn’t go down that route as we still have the clunkiness of the phantasm mechanic which puts us at odds with our class mechanic shatters. There are no other classes that sacrifice all their DPS just to use their mechanic.
Instead I’d rather they remove the idea of phantasms from the game entirely and adjust skills accordingly but that’s just personal preference. I know it would take a lot but phantasms just don’t work at all.
Phantasms just need to be illusionary strikes you summon and once they do their attack, they despawn. In exchange, lower cooldowns to 7-9 seconds. That way, you only have 1 phantasm strike with no 3 phantasm ramp up, you use them as a warrior would use 100b or a thief Vault.
It also massively reduces mesmer DPS ramp up.
Offhand sword phantasm also needs to be a cleave.
Then we can buff Blurred Frenzy to the damage of a pistol whip and buff mesmer autoattacks by around 40%.
Mesmers in GW2 have the same problems Mesmer had in GW1. And just like in GW1 it’s taking the devs years to address it. Yes they have utility, yes they are good in SPvP , but guess what? They also fall behind all other classes in pve. They lack AoE’s in comparison to the other casters, and simply just can not steadily put out as much damage as other classes. Literally the same problems. I thought they were going to address it better than they did at the HoT release.
They need skill revamps. Some skills need to have their functionality completely changed. Maybe even split between pvp and pve. I’m sorry but my clones are not reliable aoe attacks in pve. They just aren’t.
Seriously… you badly need to learn how to mesmer in PvE. I’m playing all professions on a daily rotation and, no, mesmer don’t take more time than other professions to kill things. To be honest, the mesmer is, for me, the safest profession to use in PvE and probably the quickest to solo burn mobs.
Mesmer do have a lot of aoe (shatters/focus fantasm/traits/staff and even a cleaving weapon which is totally viable). Chronomancer add even more aoe damage (well/shield).
Do remember that if you feel that the mesmer lack damages, it will most likely be because you are stuck in a build that is not focused on damages. A pure mesmer condi build do above average damage, a pure power build tend to perform slightly under average damage but not to the point that it’s an issue. In PvE, it’s especially easy to perform well, especially since mobs have no brain.
NB.: On a side note, if you got issues with shatter in PvE, the chronomancer’s traitline give you pretty good utilities to reliably exploit shatters.
Your clear problem is not that you play mesmer badly and probably more that you play other classes badly.
My ele, rev, warrior, guard, thief and engy blast through enemies wave after wave after wave like they were made of mesmer clones. The only classes that have less ease is condi necro (though power wells is good), ranger and then in dead last is my Mesmer waiting on cool downs while mobs spawn doing about 50% the dps of other classes if phantasms aren’t available and no, chrono phantasma doesn’t help when the mob dies.
So this is why I think the damage modifier changes would work well: Runes, sigils and food also affect chrono buffs. Rune of chrono is a big part of group quickness but prevents scholar bonus. Sigil of concentration prevents use of force and accuracy(or night/slaying for dungeons) at the same time. 20% boon duration food is mutually exclusive with 10% salad or other DPS stat food.
Domination has 15% and then another 12.5% vs vuln.
Dueling has p.fury, 15% and 150 ferocity and requires spamming MoP.
Illusions has phantasmal haste and 9%Chrono and inspiration are both used in the support build. It’s about the choice of picking all 3 DPS trait lines and DPS gear or only being able to pick one DPS traitline and support gear. If all those modifiers affected phantasms: (1.125*1.15*1.09*1.05*1.07*1.1*1.1=90% more phantasms DPS) and then also p.Fury and p.Haste and ferocity need to be factored in for around a ~150% more phantasm damage that wouldn’t be available in chrono support build. This isn’t including grace of the land and other team buffs that aren’t raw stats.
Summon 1 duelist and 2 swordsman with this build in the DPS testing with the most basic off buffs (vuln, might and banners)
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vhAQRAra88msICloBUrhFVDqsDlYAkBYE7EtLpJKA-TBBXgA9q/As/o8LU/wjSQSBMwYA-e
About 7.8k dps for just phantasms. 7.8k * 2.5 = 19.5k dps from just the phantasm. Add some auto attacks, sc 3 and MoP spam and it wouldn’t be half bad and you hit about 30k in the most selfish mesmer DPS build. Add party buffs like spotter and grace of the land affecting phantasms too and the Mesmer now has a good DPS build that is selfish. Could theoretically go higher with staff phantasms and enough conditions. No major rework to separate PvP, WvW and PvE. Mutually exclusive with the chrono support build.
That works… assuming that the build won’t change with the DPS changes you’re proposing. It’s quite likely that if phantasms start being affected by damage modifiers, then Mesmer will swap to something like Illusions / Domination / Chronomancer. It’s a well-known fact that Mesmer doesn’t need Inspiration and all that boon duration just to share quickness to 4 others, so I’d wager that giving Chronomancer better DPS like that will encourage people to drop certain utility for those sweet damage modifiers and migrate to having two Mesmers in raids.
My point is, while your change will work if the build remains the same, we can’t discount the fact that the build may very well change to accommodate such a change. The surefire way of ensuring we’re forced to drop Chronomancer support for DPS is by dumping our damage to a new elite spec.
So this is why I think the damage modifier changes would work well…
That works… assuming that the build won’t change with the DPS changes you’re proposing. It’s quite likely that if phantasms start being affected by damage modifiers, then Mesmer will swap to something like Illusions / Domination / Chronomancer. It’s a well-known fact that Mesmer doesn’t need Inspiration and all that boon duration just to share quickness to 4 others, so I’d wager that giving Chronomancer better DPS like that will encourage people to drop certain utility for those sweet damage modifiers and migrate to having two Mesmers in raids.
My point is, while your change will work if the build remains the same, we can’t discount the fact that the build may very well change to accommodate such a change. The surefire way of ensuring we’re forced to drop Chronomancer support for DPS is by dumping our damage to a new elite spec.
First a full rework would be great but I don’t think it’s happening.
I fully expect builds to change. Dom, insp, chrono is still set in stone for distortion share support. For mirror comps, dom ill chrono could work and they would do decent damage… Around the damage of warriors in mirror comps with equal buffing to 5 ppl. There is no problem with two warriors or druids. Why a problem with this? Mesmers still need to bring shields for 5 which means terrible wide up time on 3 dps phantasms and bringing a focus for pulls tanks it even more. There is inherent balance of dps and support
Been playing Mesmer since the release of Gw2, it was my only class that i played in the game. Even in Gw1 this was my class which i had most fun of. Sure i have other chars,but mostly of the content i did with my Mesmer ,because i love this class. Today i finished my ascended armor on my warrior and gone to my first Fractal with a new class other than mesmer. What can i say….its ridicolus how much Mesmer sucks in comparison. Guild friends say its okay if we take you with us…the quickness is worth it…but for me personally it feels like im just carried,which sucks. So…today i only use my Mesmer for Roleplay Purposes, Warrior will be my future Class to go, until A-net makes Mesmer playable again without being a drag. And im talking not about raids, i only do world events, Dungeons and fractals.
I agree with you. It’s same same with me. Mesmer is my favorite class and has been my main class since GW1. Surely we can carry our own weight; This is our favorite class, we know how to use it, we know how to survive and do the best we can to support our group in battle. But at the same time in harder pve areas it’s hard to compare ourselves to peers in terms of damage.
In GW1 Mesmers were very “1 enemy focused”, and had a lot passive/indirect damage (degen hexes). The same is happening now where a lot of damage comes from your conditions. That’s a great thread in SPvP where players need to think about their degen, but not so much in PVE, as some bosses pretty much ignore conditions. It wasn’t till May 2010, that the devs in GW1 addressed this but revamping what? Almost half the Mesmer skills? After that update Mesmers were still 1 enemy focused, but now many of the skills the Mesmer used in that 1 enemy had an effect on surroundings enemies too. That not only increased the damage Mesmer put out, and also addressed their lack on AoE. After that I could bring my Mesmer out in PvE and do significant support/damage. Lets take the elite skill Ineptitude. It was a hex that made an enemy take damage and become blinded the next time they attacked. That was great in pvp, if you had “stop” a warrior or assassin, but in PvE? Oh great you held that one guy off for a bit, but here’s 5 more. After the 2010 update, that elite hex spread spread to adjacent foes too, keeping it’s functionality while at the same time greatly boosting it’s PvE effectiveness. The same can be done now. For example Confusing Damages (scepter 2) it “Channels a beam of energy that damages and confuses your foe”. Now if the do the same here and make it so that is effects foes adjacent to the one you’re attacking , BOOM you just gave the Mesmer a more reliable AoE. Simple change with great PvE effects. They did this with Mantra Of Pain and it made it SO much better. I feel we need this but our weapons, not just utilities. Those are where we tweak to support out teams. Another example is Mind Stab (GS 3). What if after you activate it, the sword/AoE would stay for a few seconds and then explode/shatter causing damage and bleeding. It keeps it’s effect, it makes it avoidable in PvP, but it can also give a significant PvE boost.
There are so many ways to address this, and it’s frustrating to not see it not being done because “oh they’re good in pvp”.
noticed it to few weeks ago was on my mesmer in wvw and i was attacking a camp i feel like took forever to kill that 1 vet
I personally have no problems with solo play in PvE content as a Mesmer. When if comes to grouping are you calculating the spectacular amount of damage you are contributing to the other people in the group? Just using some DPS meters results of the dps that the Mesmer is directly outputting on their own on a dummy is all but useless for a realistic view of the Mesmer.
Figure out how much dps a Mesmer adds to the rest of the group, then multiply that times the number of group members. Now add that to your dps from the dummy. That will be a much more accurate picture of what Mesmer brings to the table…
I personally have no problems with solo play in PvE content as a Mesmer. When if comes to grouping are you calculating the spectacular amount of damage you are contributing to the other people in the group? Just using some DPS meters results of the dps that the Mesmer is directly outputting on their own on a dummy is all but useless for a realistic view of the Mesmer.
Figure out how much dps a Mesmer adds to the rest of the group, then multiply that times the number of group members. Now add that to your dps from the dummy. That will be a much more accurate picture of what Mesmer brings to the table…
Shhh you are going to make the locals mad with this logic, objectivity, and truths
mesmer is good for 1 thing in wvw atm and thats support sharing boons seems to be the only option now
mesmer is good for 1 thing in wvw atm and thats support sharing boons seems to be the only option now
You’re forgetting roaming. Mesmer is strong 1v1 or even 1v2 vs. much less skilled opponents.
qT didn’t use buffs, the Chrono vid was only for rotation purposes. The dps number was a miscommunication and has been removed.
Ziggs Ironeye – Engineer | Madame Le Blanc – Mesmer | Mentor (PvE) | EU
“Mentoring engineers / mesmers and showing you what you can do with your fantastic class!
Just pm me for my advice! Always eager to help!”
“Mentoring engineers / mesmers and showing you what you can do with your fantastic class!
Just pm me for my advice! Always eager to help!”
I’ve said it many a time.
Mesmer DPS is low because it has such innately high burst on shatters. Is it fair? Sort of, but that’s why chrono had to give support: high personal DPS would allow it to replace pretty much everything else considering the amount of support it provides (which is enough to mandate taking one).
If the mesmer wants a DPS option, it needs a specialization that removes its shatters. That’s up to the mesmer community to decide and deliberate on if they want it, but that’s what needs to happen to enable such high damage.
Formal Thief Elite Spec proposal:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/ES-Suggestion-The-Deadeye-FORMAL/
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/ES-Suggestion-The-Deadeye-FORMAL/
I personally have no problems with solo play in PvE content as a Mesmer. When if comes to grouping are you calculating the spectacular amount of damage you are contributing to the other people in the group? Just using some DPS meters results of the dps that the Mesmer is directly outputting on their own on a dummy is all but useless for a realistic view of the Mesmer.
Figure out how much dps a Mesmer adds to the rest of the group, then multiply that times the number of group members. Now add that to your dps from the dummy. That will be a much more accurate picture of what Mesmer brings to the table…
Shhh you are going to make the locals mad with this logic, objectivity, and truths
While the OP was over exaggerating, the above statement summarizes the state of Mesmer: support bot in every game mode, weak solo and extremely limited options, as almost all builds running the same trait lines with almost identical trait selection. How is this a good state for the class?!
I’ve said it many a time.
Mesmer DPS is low because it has such innately high burst on shatters. Is it fair? Sort of, but that’s why chrono had to give support: high personal DPS would allow it to replace pretty much everything else considering the amount of support it provides (which is enough to mandate taking one).
If the mesmer wants a DPS option, it needs a specialization that removes its shatters. That’s up to the mesmer community to decide and deliberate on if they want it, but that’s what needs to happen to enable such high damage.
Actually it might not, there’s a point at which adding dps classes is just straight up better especially as mesmer doesn’t buff mesmers due to phantasms not receiving or seeming to derive any benefit from alacrity/quickness. If mesmer did 18k playing the support role perfectly you still would only use 2 at most as eles and thieves offer much better dps increases for the team. You would however see guards almost being made redundant against good chronos but guards would be superior to average chronos in the non alacrity support. Additionally at the moment alacrity just isn’t worth using an extra chrono, they’re only there for quickness, mesmer is one I’ll thought out signet of inspiration nerf away from being a junk class everywhere.
As for innately high burst sure it might have one of the highest coefficients at 2 and 3 clone shatters now IP is baseline however there are very few ways to actually increase it any further. You have fragility and mental anguish and that’s pretty much it which is a 1/2-12.5% damage mod and a 15/30% damage mod on mind wrack only.
Mind wrack itself has a total coefficient of 2.3 for a 1 clone, the most commonly used number as clones die so fast now. The coefficients for 2 being 2.67 in total and 3 clone being 3.08 in total. Sure the last two are higher than backstab and a few other “burst” abilities but 2 clone isn’t by much and as mentioned mesmers have far fewer damage mods that affect burst with much longer cool down on said burst. You can backstab twice between each mindwrack, assuming you somehow get those 3 clones out constantly in the cool down of mind wrack.
Most other classes have a lot more damage mods that affect their burst and sustained damage which turns those smaller mods of 2.3 and tunes them closer to a mesmers highest burst. What people in this thread have been asking for is that mesmers be allowed to drop support and get damage mods to do the same so their personal dps isn’t so hilariously poor and fixes for the phantasm mechanic which sees them taking upto 20s to reach max dps which is lower than other classes.
That’s without mentioning the other things that take a giant dump on the Mesmer class. Please, go play living hell season 2 with your Mesmer and you’ll see what I mean.
Edit: I mean look at things like test of faith, 3.0 coefficient, scrapper hammer skills are right up there with mesmer mind wrack and tracks targets. Sorry but mesmer mind wrack coefficient since HoT is absolutely no reason any more to justify their terrible PvE performance outside of the alacrity/quickness role.
(edited by apharma.3741)
Your clear problem is not that you play mesmer badly and probably more that you play other classes badly.
My ele, rev, warrior, guard, thief and engy blast through enemies wave after wave after wave like they were made of mesmer clones. The only classes that have less ease is condi necro (though power wells is good), ranger and then in dead last is my Mesmer waiting on cool downs while mobs spawn doing about 50% the dps of other classes if phantasms aren’t available and no, chrono phantasma doesn’t help when the mob dies.
I never said that I had issues with other classes thanks. I play all of them and each one are pretty good. What I said is that for me the mesmer is the safest out of all the profession to play. And no there is absolutely no dps issue on the mesmer. If you have issue with the mesmer dps it’s yours to correct them and it’s totally doable via trait/gear. Personnally I can go through wave of mobs with my mesmer without “waiting on cool down 50% of the time”. Beside, clever use of the chronomancer traits do help you even if you don’t want to believe it.
No core profession should be balanced around an optional elite specialization.
I’ve said it many a time.
Mesmer DPS is low because it has such innately high burst on shatters. Is it fair? Sort of, but that’s why chrono had to give support: high personal DPS would allow it to replace pretty much everything else considering the amount of support it provides (which is enough to mandate taking one).
If the mesmer wants a DPS option, it needs a specialization that removes its shatters. That’s up to the mesmer community to decide and deliberate on if they want it, but that’s what needs to happen to enable such high damage.
What the hell are you talking about, arcing slice and eviscerate outscale any shatter damage you can do. kittening Vault on a staff thief hits harder than a shatter on a power build.
Your clear problem is not that you play mesmer badly and probably more that you play other classes badly.
My ele, rev, warrior, guard, thief and engy blast through enemies wave after wave after wave like they were made of mesmer clones. The only classes that have less ease is condi necro (though power wells is good), ranger and then in dead last is my Mesmer waiting on cool downs while mobs spawn doing about 50% the dps of other classes if phantasms aren’t available and no, chrono phantasma doesn’t help when the mob dies.
I never said that I had issues with other classes thanks. I play all of them and each one are pretty good. What I said is that for me the mesmer is the safest out of all the profession to play. And no there is absolutely no dps issue on the mesmer. If you have issue with the mesmer dps it’s yours to correct them and it’s totally doable via trait/gear. Personnally I can go through wave of mobs with my mesmer without “waiting on cool down 50% of the time”. Beside, clever use of the chronomancer traits do help you even if you don’t want to believe it.
The point is through your “clever use of chronomancer traits” and careful management of skills and cool downs you might be able to cleave through mobs in open world at the same rate as most other classes where they simply press 11111111111. Heaven forbid those other classes start trying, you’d get no loot as things would die before you even got 2 hits from a sword, possibly before you even got 1 hit in.
I’m in no way exaggerating this either, most eles will precast lava font or meteor for waves with others laying traps and other AoE. The best AoE damage the Mesmer has is mind wrack that needs a clone, second up are wells which have very poor scaling.
I’m basically saying if you think mesmer is fine and the safest then you clearly do not play the others very well at all. Guard and rev are possibly the safest while doing a helluva lot more damage with next to no ramp up time.
There’s a spreadsheet from frifox kicking around, might take some searching but it shows exactly what the ramp up time is like and how our DPS is in power dps builds. Condi can get higher numbers from what I hear but with a longer ramp up.
mesmer lose dps with clone shatter but if we dont shatter we lose dps to we need more phantasm skills
Please, go play living hell season 2 with your Mesmer and you’ll see what I mean.
:(:(:(:(:( And LW3 isn’t any friendlier so far.
Amberley Avalen – Charr Mesmer
Tanya Larina – Human Thief
Finchy Whyte – Sylvari Ranger
Tanya Larina – Human Thief
Finchy Whyte – Sylvari Ranger
To be fair, Mesmers have low personal direct dps but they add so much dps to each of their party members that they probably have the highest dps of all classes when this is considered. So…
To be fair, Mesmers have low personal direct dps but they add so much dps to each of their party members that they probably have the highest dps of all classes when this is considered. So…
To be fair, read the thread before responding. People have already responded to this dumb point.
No it’s true I can take down most of my enemies in 1 vs 1 but it takes at least 1-2 minutes to do so thanks to their sustain. Mesmer damage really is at an all time low with all the healing and it doesn’t help that our burst combos are predictable. That being said mesmer needs fixing in sustain. I say buff damage Nerf their sustain. They could use a 33% increase in physical damage. (Condition damage is fine don’t change it).
Lucky Leaf, Ángël, Clergyman, Side Kick -Lets make Gw2 a better game
Mesmer needs a dps buff, a rather large one. At least give us damage in PvE and leave it out of PvP but we need a damage buff.
The only people who don’t think so are the ones who don’t play mesmer
I’ve said it many a time.
Mesmer DPS is low because it has such innately high burst on shatters. Is it fair? Sort of, but that’s why chrono had to give support: high personal DPS would allow it to replace pretty much everything else considering the amount of support it provides (which is enough to mandate taking one).
If the mesmer wants a DPS option, it needs a specialization that removes its shatters. That’s up to the mesmer community to decide and deliberate on if they want it, but that’s what needs to happen to enable such high damage.
wtf?
Is this another thief expert telling mesmer what to do again?
look here:
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mind_Wrack
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Backstab
I’ve said it many a time.
Mesmer DPS is low because it has such innately high burst on shatters. Is it fair? Sort of, but that’s why chrono had to give support: high personal DPS would allow it to replace pretty much everything else considering the amount of support it provides (which is enough to mandate taking one).
If the mesmer wants a DPS option, it needs a specialization that removes its shatters. That’s up to the mesmer community to decide and deliberate on if they want it, but that’s what needs to happen to enable such high damage.
What the hell are you talking about, arcing slice and eviscerate outscale any shatter damage you can do. kittening Vault on a staff thief hits harder than a shatter on a power build.
Eviscerate: 3.0; Berserker Decapitate 2.5+2.5 (if both hit, secondary damage not affected by anything)
Arcing Slice: 1.2/1.8 below 50%; Berserker Arc Divider 1.32/2.31
Vault: 2.25
Mind Wrack: 3.105
You’re not hitting as hard because you’re not playing offensive traits and boons, while the people who hit so hard with those abilities are.
I’ve said it many a time.
Mesmer DPS is low because it has such innately high burst on shatters. Is it fair? Sort of, but that’s why chrono had to give support: high personal DPS would allow it to replace pretty much everything else considering the amount of support it provides (which is enough to mandate taking one).
If the mesmer wants a DPS option, it needs a specialization that removes its shatters. That’s up to the mesmer community to decide and deliberate on if they want it, but that’s what needs to happen to enable such high damage.
wtf?
Is this another thief expert telling mesmer what to do again?
look here:
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mind_Wrack
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Backstab
I take it you didn’t look at the wiki notes because you probably aren’t aware of what the coefficients actually are.
Or that for backstab (same coefficient as Blurred Frenzy) to hit harder than shatter, a thief needs to run at least two damage trait lines to match baseline no-might no-bonus MR, since it’d need external modifiers of about 30%.
I mean c’mon. I’m no expert mesmer, and I’ve never bothered to look at the exact math as to what damage numbers should be to account for trade-offs, but I know the coefficients better than the so-called experts insulting me for not knowing the class?
If you’re gonna be super arrogant and dismissive of the fact that having huge burst baseline on top of high DPS and the best offensive support in the game is a bad idea in the making, at least be somewhat correct about what you’re saying when accusing other people of having no authority when discussing facts to tell you what’s good and bad conceptual design.
Formal Thief Elite Spec proposal:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/ES-Suggestion-The-Deadeye-FORMAL/
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/ES-Suggestion-The-Deadeye-FORMAL/
(edited by DeceiverX.8361)
I’ve said it many a time.
Mesmer DPS is low because it has such innately high burst on shatters. Is it fair? Sort of, but that’s why chrono had to give support: high personal DPS would allow it to replace pretty much everything else considering the amount of support it provides (which is enough to mandate taking one).
If the mesmer wants a DPS option, it needs a specialization that removes its shatters. That’s up to the mesmer community to decide and deliberate on if they want it, but that’s what needs to happen to enable such high damage.
What the hell are you talking about, arcing slice and eviscerate outscale any shatter damage you can do. kittening Vault on a staff thief hits harder than a shatter on a power build.
Eviscerate: 3.0; Berserker Decapitate 2.5+2.5 (if both hit, secondary damage not affected by anything)
Arcing Slice: 1.2/1.8 below 50%; Berserker Arc Divider 1.32/2.31
Vault: 2.25
Mind Wrack: 3.105You’re not hitting as hard because you’re not playing offensive traits and boons, while the people who hit so hard with those abilities are.
I’ve said it many a time.
Mesmer DPS is low because it has such innately high burst on shatters. Is it fair? Sort of, but that’s why chrono had to give support: high personal DPS would allow it to replace pretty much everything else considering the amount of support it provides (which is enough to mandate taking one).
If the mesmer wants a DPS option, it needs a specialization that removes its shatters. That’s up to the mesmer community to decide and deliberate on if they want it, but that’s what needs to happen to enable such high damage.
wtf?
Is this another thief expert telling mesmer what to do again?
look here:
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mind_Wrack
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/BackstabI take it you didn’t look at the wiki notes because you probably aren’t aware of what the coefficients actually are.
Or that for backstab (same coefficient as Blurred Frenzy) to hit harder than shatter, a thief needs to run at least two damage trait lines to match baseline no-might no-bonus MR, since it’d need external modifiers of about 30%.
I mean c’mon. I’m no expert mesmer, and I’ve never bothered to look at the exact math as to what damage numbers should be to account for trade-offs, but I know the coefficients better than the so-called experts insulting me for not knowing the class?
If you’re gonna be super arrogant and dismissive of the fact that having huge burst baseline on top of high DPS and the best offensive support in the game is a bad idea in the making, at least be somewhat correct about what you’re saying when accusing other people of having no authority when discussing facts to tell you what’s good and bad conceptual design.
dude, it’s there, look:
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Damage#Skill_coefficient
hey aren’t you the one with 5k per clone guy?
wow so now mesmer have best dps too?
Oh, so you guys are still here.
Honestly, every once in a while I come back to this game just to see which of the common forum mesmers are still playing.
Turns out, quite a lot of you.
A lot who, if I remember right, previously said they’d quit.
shrug
All of you guys would be happier on OW…
Well… not right now… what with the DDoS going on.
BUT~!
You’d be happier any other day.
“Unused Development Initiative. We care so much
about your feedback, that we don’t even read it.” ~ Crystal Suzuki
about your feedback, that we don’t even read it.” ~ Crystal Suzuki
I’ve said it many a time.
Mesmer DPS is low because it has such innately high burst on shatters. Is it fair? Sort of, but that’s why chrono had to give support: high personal DPS would allow it to replace pretty much everything else considering the amount of support it provides (which is enough to mandate taking one).
If the mesmer wants a DPS option, it needs a specialization that removes its shatters. That’s up to the mesmer community to decide and deliberate on if they want it, but that’s what needs to happen to enable such high damage.
This is well said. Until I played with shattering, it was a slog to do anything DPS wise. It was just really slow.
1. Mesmer demands LOTS of attention and focus from the player to achieve the most DPS it can offer.
2. Conceptually, it is probably very diffcult to balance the damage offered between shattering and weapon skills, so playing non-shattering builds offer little in comparison.
(edited by Obtena.7952)
I’ve said it many a time.
Mesmer DPS is low because it has such innately high burst on shatters. Is it fair? Sort of, but that’s why chrono had to give support: high personal DPS would allow it to replace pretty much everything else considering the amount of support it provides (which is enough to mandate taking one).
If the mesmer wants a DPS option, it needs a specialization that removes its shatters. That’s up to the mesmer community to decide and deliberate on if they want it, but that’s what needs to happen to enable such high damage.
This is well said. Until I played with shattering, it was a slog to do anything DPS wise. It was just really slow.
1. Mesmer demands LOTS of attention and focus from the player to achieve the most DPS it can offer.
2. Conceptually, it is probably very diffcult to balance the damage offered between shattering and weapon skills, so playing non-shattering builds offer little in comparison.
Honestly, the best argument against this when it comes up.
Is to just point to the thief.
“Mesmer has such high burst with shatters”
And thief has always had backstab.
Yet it’s also always had:
1. Great support (Far better than Mesmer had for the longest time)
2. Unique support (Mesmer is now just another stat increaser, and reflects weren’t unique to mesmer (and are useless in 90% of situations now))
3. Great DPS
Oh, and an insanely strong stealth + movement mechanic that makes it extremely difficult to actually kill a thief.
You know.
That thing they nerfed on mesmers?
rolls eyes
I love how this community hasn’t changed at all.
“Unused Development Initiative. We care so much
about your feedback, that we don’t even read it.” ~ Crystal Suzuki
about your feedback, that we don’t even read it.” ~ Crystal Suzuki
I’ve said it many a time.
Mesmer DPS is low because it has such innately high burst on shatters. Is it fair? Sort of, but that’s why chrono had to give support: high personal DPS would allow it to replace pretty much everything else considering the amount of support it provides (which is enough to mandate taking one).
If the mesmer wants a DPS option, it needs a specialization that removes its shatters. That’s up to the mesmer community to decide and deliberate on if they want it, but that’s what needs to happen to enable such high damage.
This is well said. Until I played with shattering, it was a slog to do anything DPS wise. It was just really slow.
1. Mesmer demands LOTS of attention and focus from the player to achieve the most DPS it can offer.
2. Conceptually, it is probably very diffcult to balance the damage offered between shattering and weapon skills, so playing non-shattering builds offer little in comparison.
Problem is that shatters are garbage dps compared to what everyone else has. A single burst every 10 seconds that’s additionally limited to your cooldowns for illusion production? Utter garbage.
Every other class can easily outdamage the shatter burst by just autoattacking, let alone using dps skills.
I’ve said it many a time.
Mesmer DPS is low because it has such innately high burst on shatters. Is it fair? Sort of, but that’s why chrono had to give support: high personal DPS would allow it to replace pretty much everything else considering the amount of support it provides (which is enough to mandate taking one).
If the mesmer wants a DPS option, it needs a specialization that removes its shatters. That’s up to the mesmer community to decide and deliberate on if they want it, but that’s what needs to happen to enable such high damage.
What the hell are you talking about, arcing slice and eviscerate outscale any shatter damage you can do. kittening Vault on a staff thief hits harder than a shatter on a power build.
Eviscerate: 3.0; Berserker Decapitate 2.5+2.5 (if both hit, secondary damage not affected by anything)
Arcing Slice: 1.2/1.8 below 50%; Berserker Arc Divider 1.32/2.31
Vault: 2.25
Mind Wrack: 3.105You’re not hitting as hard because you’re not playing offensive traits and boons, while the people who hit so hard with those abilities are.
I’ve said it many a time.
Mesmer DPS is low because it has such innately high burst on shatters. Is it fair? Sort of, but that’s why chrono had to give support: high personal DPS would allow it to replace pretty much everything else considering the amount of support it provides (which is enough to mandate taking one).
If the mesmer wants a DPS option, it needs a specialization that removes its shatters. That’s up to the mesmer community to decide and deliberate on if they want it, but that’s what needs to happen to enable such high damage.
wtf?
Is this another thief expert telling mesmer what to do again?
look here:
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mind_Wrack
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/BackstabI take it you didn’t look at the wiki notes because you probably aren’t aware of what the coefficients actually are.
Or that for backstab (same coefficient as Blurred Frenzy) to hit harder than shatter, a thief needs to run at least two damage trait lines to match baseline no-might no-bonus MR, since it’d need external modifiers of about 30%.
I mean c’mon. I’m no expert mesmer, and I’ve never bothered to look at the exact math as to what damage numbers should be to account for trade-offs, but I know the coefficients better than the so-called experts insulting me for not knowing the class?
If you’re gonna be super arrogant and dismissive of the fact that having huge burst baseline on top of high DPS and the best offensive support in the game is a bad idea in the making, at least be somewhat correct about what you’re saying when accusing other people of having no authority when discussing facts to tell you what’s good and bad conceptual design.
Except in all of these you’re taking the best and maximum possible values. You always assume we’re getting the 30% bonus not the 15%, that we’re getting a full 3 clone shatter when most of the time in a power build you’re lucky to get a 1 clone against the AoE around. I mean heck, you main thief, you know how much AoE there is, imagine you have 1/4 of the thieves health in berserker armour.
You also forget that a thief and many other classes get damage mods that not only affect their burst but also every single other skill they use when a thief picks up executioner it applies to all skills hitting a target under 50%. That’s your auto chain, HS spam, shadowshot spam and pulmonary impacts from headshot spam.
A Mesmer gets what? 15% damage increase to phantasms, whoop, the equivilent of a 7% boost to dps. Wait there’s more, rather than just getting fury and it giving you 20% more crit chance you have to trait for half your damage to get fury otherwise they don’t because boons prioritise players!
When a thief builds for damage they hit like trucks, whether it be PvE or PvP. I believe it’s now the highest dps on small/moving targets all for pressing 1 and dodging every now and then.
I’ve said it many a time.
Mesmer DPS is low because it has such innately high burst on shatters. Is it fair? Sort of, but that’s why chrono had to give support: high personal DPS would allow it to replace pretty much everything else considering the amount of support it provides (which is enough to mandate taking one).
If the mesmer wants a DPS option, it needs a specialization that removes its shatters. That’s up to the mesmer community to decide and deliberate on if they want it, but that’s what needs to happen to enable such high damage.
This is well said. Until I played with shattering, it was a slog to do anything DPS wise. It was just really slow.
1. Mesmer demands LOTS of attention and focus from the player to achieve the most DPS it can offer.
2. Conceptually, it is probably very diffcult to balance the damage offered between shattering and weapon skills, so playing non-shattering builds offer little in comparison.Problem is that shatters are garbage dps compared to what everyone else has. A single burst every 10 seconds that’s additionally limited to your cooldowns for illusion production? Utter garbage.
Every other class can easily outdamage the shatter burst by just autoattacking, let alone using dps skills.
Right. I’m not saying it’s fair that the mesmer has no option to play a selfish DPS build, but it is a consequence of an attempt of balancing the class given the innate high burst potential the class brings to PvP and the supportive damage increases it brings to PvE since it didn’t lose the shatters in Chronomancer. If the shatters get removed, the mesmer can see huge bumps to its AA DPS if they really want to.
Coming from a primarily-thief player, having such strong AA’s is honestly overrated. It makes encounters in general one-dimensional and a small tweak to balance in the name of another format could kill off all reason for the thief to be used in PvE groups and the likes, since support typically matters more when looking at the context of the whole party’s damage output versus a single individual’s – after all, the thief’s damage is the only reason it’s taken in “competitive” raiding – it’s not a requirement for general purpose at all, and was kicked on joining parties as a strict liability before ANet buffed its damage so crazily to justify it in top-tier raids. It doesn’t do much in the big picture for clear times; a druid or chrono or warrior are seen as much more valuable and important overall.
I think the real issue most people are missing here is, will a DPS-based, low-utility mesmer spec be considered worthwhile in comparison to a chrono or other DPS-based specs? If so, how will the other specs compensate, and then, how do these stack up to the chronomancer for those who like the way it plays?
True balance is nigh impossible to ANet to achieve, and someone’s going to need to end up with the short end of the stick at some point in some category as a consequence. The real questions are who is entitled to what, who wants to play what and in what way, and then how to keep those thoughts in mind when creating new content in respects to keeping players happy and the game making money.
Formal Thief Elite Spec proposal:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/ES-Suggestion-The-Deadeye-FORMAL/
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/ES-Suggestion-The-Deadeye-FORMAL/
I’ve said it many a time.
Mesmer DPS is low because it has such innately high burst on shatters. Is it fair? Sort of, but that’s why chrono had to give support: high personal DPS would allow it to replace pretty much everything else considering the amount of support it provides (which is enough to mandate taking one).
If the mesmer wants a DPS option, it needs a specialization that removes its shatters. That’s up to the mesmer community to decide and deliberate on if they want it, but that’s what needs to happen to enable such high damage.
This is well said. Until I played with shattering, it was a slog to do anything DPS wise. It was just really slow.
1. Mesmer demands LOTS of attention and focus from the player to achieve the most DPS it can offer.
2. Conceptually, it is probably very diffcult to balance the damage offered between shattering and weapon skills, so playing non-shattering builds offer little in comparison.Honestly, the best argument against this when it comes up.
Is to just point to the thief.“Mesmer has such high burst with shatters”
And thief has always had backstab.
Yet it’s also always had:
1. Great support (Far better than Mesmer had for the longest time)
2. Unique support (Mesmer is now just another stat increaser, and reflects weren’t unique to mesmer (and are useless in 90% of situations now))
3. Great DPSOh, and an insanely strong stealth + movement mechanic that makes it extremely difficult to actually kill a thief.
You know.
That thing they nerfed on mesmers?rolls eyes
I love how this community hasn’t changed at all.
Honestly, comparisons to other professions are the WORST arguments for anything. Why? because Mesmers aren’t thieves and game devs don’t balance classes with that kind of mentality; it’s a fool’s errand to try.
DeceiverX makes some VERY relevant statements … even if a great DPS Mesmer build existed, is nothing particularly special compared to other great DPS builds, but the utility from Chrono … very desirable. That’s an extremely hard thing for Anet to balance for.
(edited by Obtena.7952)
I’ve said it many a time.
Mesmer DPS is low because it has such innately high burst on shatters. Is it fair? Sort of, but that’s why chrono had to give support: high personal DPS would allow it to replace pretty much everything else considering the amount of support it provides (which is enough to mandate taking one).
If the mesmer wants a DPS option, it needs a specialization that removes its shatters. That’s up to the mesmer community to decide and deliberate on if they want it, but that’s what needs to happen to enable such high damage.
This is well said. Until I played with shattering, it was a slog to do anything DPS wise. It was just really slow.
1. Mesmer demands LOTS of attention and focus from the player to achieve the most DPS it can offer.
2. Conceptually, it is probably very diffcult to balance the damage offered between shattering and weapon skills, so playing non-shattering builds offer little in comparison.Problem is that shatters are garbage dps compared to what everyone else has.
But that’s not actually a problem. If Anet balanced classes based on what other classes do or have, then it would be a problem. But they don’t, so it’s not. REGARDLESS of what kind of damage a shatter burst does, compared to anything else, my points are still true. Optimal DPS from Mesmer is highly intense and damage seems skewed heavily to shattering.
(edited by Obtena.7952)
I’ve said it many a time.
Mesmer DPS is low because it has such innately high burst on shatters. Is it fair? Sort of, but that’s why chrono had to give support: high personal DPS would allow it to replace pretty much everything else considering the amount of support it provides (which is enough to mandate taking one).
If the mesmer wants a DPS option, it needs a specialization that removes its shatters. That’s up to the mesmer community to decide and deliberate on if they want it, but that’s what needs to happen to enable such high damage.
This is well said. Until I played with shattering, it was a slog to do anything DPS wise. It was just really slow.
1. Mesmer demands LOTS of attention and focus from the player to achieve the most DPS it can offer.
2. Conceptually, it is probably very diffcult to balance the damage offered between shattering and weapon skills, so playing non-shattering builds offer little in comparison.Problem is that shatters are garbage dps compared to what everyone else has.
If Anet balanced classes based on what other classes do or have, you might have a point. But they don’t, so it’s not relevant. That changes nothing of what I have said. REGARDLESS of what kind of damage a shatter burst does, compared to anything else, my points are still true.
You’re…wrong. Your points are wrong, all of them.
Anet obviously balances classes based on what other classes have. How else would they balance? That’s…sorta the whole point of balancing.
On top of that, mesmer dps is a problem regardless of how balance is conceived. Mesmer is objectively awful at dealing damage in a variety of ways in PvE, and this makes the class less fun to play, which makes the game less fun to play. Less fun = less likely to purchase items on the gem store, which impacts Anet’s bottom line. It’s absolutely something they have to take into account.
I’ve said it many a time.
Mesmer DPS is low because it has such innately high burst on shatters. Is it fair? Sort of, but that’s why chrono had to give support: high personal DPS would allow it to replace pretty much everything else considering the amount of support it provides (which is enough to mandate taking one).
If the mesmer wants a DPS option, it needs a specialization that removes its shatters. That’s up to the mesmer community to decide and deliberate on if they want it, but that’s what needs to happen to enable such high damage.
This is well said. Until I played with shattering, it was a slog to do anything DPS wise. It was just really slow.
1. Mesmer demands LOTS of attention and focus from the player to achieve the most DPS it can offer.
2. Conceptually, it is probably very diffcult to balance the damage offered between shattering and weapon skills, so playing non-shattering builds offer little in comparison.Problem is that shatters are garbage dps compared to what everyone else has. A single burst every 10 seconds that’s additionally limited to your cooldowns for illusion production? Utter garbage.
Every other class can easily outdamage the shatter burst by just autoattacking, let alone using dps skills.
Right. I’m not saying it’s fair that the mesmer has no option to play a selfish DPS build, but it is a consequence of an attempt of balancing the class given the innate high burst potential the class brings to PvP and the supportive damage increases it brings to PvE since it didn’t lose the shatters in Chronomancer. If the shatters get removed, the mesmer can see huge bumps to its AA DPS if they really want to.
So your point about PvP burst is at least semi-valid, but your point about supportive damage increases is absolutely and totally wrong. There was a recent thread in this forum comparing the damage increases provided by chrono, PSEA warrior, and druid. Chrono actually had the lowest net increase while still having by far the worst damage.
I’ve said it many a time.
Mesmer DPS is low because it has such innately high burst on shatters. Is it fair? Sort of, but that’s why chrono had to give support: high personal DPS would allow it to replace pretty much everything else considering the amount of support it provides (which is enough to mandate taking one).
If the mesmer wants a DPS option, it needs a specialization that removes its shatters. That’s up to the mesmer community to decide and deliberate on if they want it, but that’s what needs to happen to enable such high damage.
What the hell are you talking about, arcing slice and eviscerate outscale any shatter damage you can do. kittening Vault on a staff thief hits harder than a shatter on a power build.
Eviscerate: 3.0; Berserker Decapitate 2.5+2.5 (if both hit, secondary damage not affected by anything)
Arcing Slice: 1.2/1.8 below 50%; Berserker Arc Divider 1.32/2.31
Vault: 2.25
Mind Wrack: 3.105You’re not hitting as hard because you’re not playing offensive traits and boons, while the people who hit so hard with those abilities are.
I’ve said it many a time.
Mesmer DPS is low because it has such innately high burst on shatters. Is it fair? Sort of, but that’s why chrono had to give support: high personal DPS would allow it to replace pretty much everything else considering the amount of support it provides (which is enough to mandate taking one).
If the mesmer wants a DPS option, it needs a specialization that removes its shatters. That’s up to the mesmer community to decide and deliberate on if they want it, but that’s what needs to happen to enable such high damage.
wtf?
Is this another thief expert telling mesmer what to do again?
look here:
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mind_Wrack
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/BackstabI take it you didn’t look at the wiki notes because you probably aren’t aware of what the coefficients actually are.
Or that for backstab (same coefficient as Blurred Frenzy) to hit harder than shatter, a thief needs to run at least two damage trait lines to match baseline no-might no-bonus MR, since it’d need external modifiers of about 30%.
I mean c’mon. I’m no expert mesmer, and I’ve never bothered to look at the exact math as to what damage numbers should be to account for trade-offs, but I know the coefficients better than the so-called experts insulting me for not knowing the class?
If you’re gonna be super arrogant and dismissive of the fact that having huge burst baseline on top of high DPS and the best offensive support in the game is a bad idea in the making, at least be somewhat correct about what you’re saying when accusing other people of having no authority when discussing facts to tell you what’s good and bad conceptual design.
Except in all of these you’re taking the best and maximum possible values. You always assume we’re getting the 30% bonus not the 15%, that we’re getting a full 3 clone shatter when most of the time in a power build you’re lucky to get a 1 clone against the AoE around. I mean heck, you main thief, you know how much AoE there is, imagine you have 1/4 of the thieves health in berserker armour.
You also forget that a thief and many other classes get damage mods that not only affect their burst but also every single other skill they use when a thief picks up executioner it applies to all skills hitting a target under 50%. That’s your auto chain, HS spam, shadowshot spam and pulmonary impacts from headshot spam.
A Mesmer gets what? 15% damage increase to phantasms, whoop, the equivilent of a 7% boost to dps. Wait there’s more, rather than just getting fury and it giving you 20% more crit chance you have to trait for half your damage to get fury otherwise they don’t because boons prioritise players!
When a thief builds for damage they hit like trucks, whether it be PvE or PvP. I believe it’s now the highest dps on small/moving targets all for pressing 1 and dodging every now and then.
No, I’m looking at baseline shatter damage. The tooltips aren’t correct; they hit harder than they say they do.
Again, I’m not saying the mesmer’s DPS is comparable. Very far from it; I know the mesmer’s personal DPS is the lowest in the game. What I’m saying is that conceptually, the DPS isn’t there because the burst is without requiring any investment whatsoever. For a thief to get the same burst potential as a mesmer, it already needs to run an offensive trait line, and have conditional modifiers such as < 50% enemy health apply. Yes, the thief has much better personal DPS in its PvE build, but the chronomancer makes up for that per-encounter via the party-wide damage it provides to others, break bar damage, etc.
However, a thief does not hit like a truck without major problems in its build outside the realm of strict PvE. The meta PvE builds are pretty much unplayable in the PvP formats – I know when I come across a PvE thief in WvW, because it dies from any single remotely-powerful skill – straight 100 to 0, and cannot put up a fight in the slightest. It’s built to AA and it’s laughable to try and kill a good player with AA seeing as it dies to a stiff breeze (skill use is a DPS loss for max DPS PvE thief, and this build lacks Trickery, a mandatory PvP trait line, plus optimal PvE thief plays D/D since it has roughly a 1-2% damage increase on its AA as opposed to D/P).
I’m not arguing it’s fair for the thief, either. I directly opposed the AA damage buffs. They weren’t warranted, and the class isn’t fun to play in PvE because pressing 1 is boring. It got forced into the situation because the class was kicked-on-sight from raid groups, and ANet isn’t willing to re-balance the profession or multiple professions.
Formal Thief Elite Spec proposal:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/ES-Suggestion-The-Deadeye-FORMAL/
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/ES-Suggestion-The-Deadeye-FORMAL/
I’ve said it many a time.
Mesmer DPS is low because it has such innately high burst on shatters. Is it fair? Sort of, but that’s why chrono had to give support: high personal DPS would allow it to replace pretty much everything else considering the amount of support it provides (which is enough to mandate taking one).
If the mesmer wants a DPS option, it needs a specialization that removes its shatters. That’s up to the mesmer community to decide and deliberate on if they want it, but that’s what needs to happen to enable such high damage.
This is well said. Until I played with shattering, it was a slog to do anything DPS wise. It was just really slow.
1. Mesmer demands LOTS of attention and focus from the player to achieve the most DPS it can offer.
2. Conceptually, it is probably very diffcult to balance the damage offered between shattering and weapon skills, so playing non-shattering builds offer little in comparison.Problem is that shatters are garbage dps compared to what everyone else has.
If Anet balanced classes based on what other classes do or have, you might have a point. But they don’t, so it’s not relevant. That changes nothing of what I have said. REGARDLESS of what kind of damage a shatter burst does, compared to anything else, my points are still true.
You’re…wrong. Your points are wrong, all of them.
Anet obviously balances classes based on what other classes have. How else would they balance? That’s…sorta the whole point of balancing.
On top of that, mesmer dps is a problem regardless of how balance is conceived. Mesmer is objectively awful at dealing damage in a variety of ways in PvE, and this makes the class less fun to play, which makes the game less fun to play. Less fun = less likely to purchase items on the gem store, which impacts Anet’s bottom line. It’s absolutely something they have to take into account.
I’ve said it many a time.
Mesmer DPS is low because it has such innately high burst on shatters. Is it fair? Sort of, but that’s why chrono had to give support: high personal DPS would allow it to replace pretty much everything else considering the amount of support it provides (which is enough to mandate taking one).
If the mesmer wants a DPS option, it needs a specialization that removes its shatters. That’s up to the mesmer community to decide and deliberate on if they want it, but that’s what needs to happen to enable such high damage.
This is well said. Until I played with shattering, it was a slog to do anything DPS wise. It was just really slow.
1. Mesmer demands LOTS of attention and focus from the player to achieve the most DPS it can offer.
2. Conceptually, it is probably very diffcult to balance the damage offered between shattering and weapon skills, so playing non-shattering builds offer little in comparison.Problem is that shatters are garbage dps compared to what everyone else has. A single burst every 10 seconds that’s additionally limited to your cooldowns for illusion production? Utter garbage.
Every other class can easily outdamage the shatter burst by just autoattacking, let alone using dps skills.
Right. I’m not saying it’s fair that the mesmer has no option to play a selfish DPS build, but it is a consequence of an attempt of balancing the class given the innate high burst potential the class brings to PvP and the supportive damage increases it brings to PvE since it didn’t lose the shatters in Chronomancer. If the shatters get removed, the mesmer can see huge bumps to its AA DPS if they really want to.
So your point about PvP burst is at least semi-valid, but your point about supportive damage increases is absolutely and totally wrong. There was a recent thread in this forum comparing the damage increases provided by chrono, PSEA warrior, and druid. Chrono actually had the lowest net increase while still having by far the worst damage.
I don’t keep up much with the numbers games for competitive speed-clear raiding since I don’t raid for speed clears, so I’ll admit defeat if it’s the case in this respect, and changes should be made accordingly based on what’s most balanced profession and spec-wide with consideration for the next spec as well. I’d still be fine with thief AA nerfs if we see a global reduction of power creep from damage. In fact, I’d prefer reduced AA to a reversion of the stealth skill changes which killed D/D power thief entirely from PvP formats. But that’s another rant.
My point remains, though; shatters are going to be the distinction in the name of balance that makes mesmer conceptually deal lower DPS than most other classes, since the burst is factored into its performance in multiple formats. Too high of follow-through damage given the existing kit would make the profession overly-powerful in a plethora of other situations. I’m not claiming to have the solution, either, but rather am trying to demonstrate that this is a class design flaw itself getting in the way of justifying giving mesmers tons of personal DPS.
Formal Thief Elite Spec proposal:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/ES-Suggestion-The-Deadeye-FORMAL/
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/ES-Suggestion-The-Deadeye-FORMAL/
Anet obviously balances classes based on what other classes have. How else would they balance? That’s…sorta the whole point of balancing.
They balance by the class concept and it’s because of that concept that the class suffers delivering DPS; it’s got nothing to do with other classes. It’s simply not possible to balance one class by comparing to all the others. That’s just ridiculous to think. Besides, if that’s actually the case, why do SO many threads like this exist in this forum and all the other professions? I mean, if you actually look at all the people claiming that all these classes aren’t balanced because of whatever other classes do, you’re only logical conclusions are:
1. Anet don’t or can’t balance that way because of the sheer volume of instances where these ‘between class’ imbalances exist; an insurmountable task perhaps
OR
2. All classes are all fairly close to being balanced properly (with the approach still misunderstood) because players are so clueless about how that process works, that everything appears imbalanced to them
Do you think that if Anet is balancing by comparing to other classes, that they are so kitten bad at it, that somehow Mesmer just got overlooked? All the other classes are completely awesome with each other? What game are you playing? Either case, you aren’t getting more DPS just because of thieves staff whatever … That’s silly.
I mean, believe what you want. I’m not wrong and it’s an easy thing to observe. Play without shattering, then play with. The difference is significant, even on trash mobs.
(edited by Obtena.7952)
I’ve said it many a time.
Mesmer DPS is low because it has such innately high burst on shatters. Is it fair? Sort of, but that’s why chrono had to give support: high personal DPS would allow it to replace pretty much everything else considering the amount of support it provides (which is enough to mandate taking one).
If the mesmer wants a DPS option, it needs a specialization that removes its shatters. That’s up to the mesmer community to decide and deliberate on if they want it, but that’s what needs to happen to enable such high damage.
What the hell are you talking about, arcing slice and eviscerate outscale any shatter damage you can do. kittening Vault on a staff thief hits harder than a shatter on a power build.
Eviscerate: 3.0; Berserker Decapitate 2.5+2.5 (if both hit, secondary damage not affected by anything)
Arcing Slice: 1.2/1.8 below 50%; Berserker Arc Divider 1.32/2.31
Vault: 2.25
Mind Wrack: 3.105You’re not hitting as hard because you’re not playing offensive traits and boons, while the people who hit so hard with those abilities are.
I’ve said it many a time.
Mesmer DPS is low because it has such innately high burst on shatters. Is it fair? Sort of, but that’s why chrono had to give support: high personal DPS would allow it to replace pretty much everything else considering the amount of support it provides (which is enough to mandate taking one).
If the mesmer wants a DPS option, it needs a specialization that removes its shatters. That’s up to the mesmer community to decide and deliberate on if they want it, but that’s what needs to happen to enable such high damage.
wtf?
Is this another thief expert telling mesmer what to do again?
look here:
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mind_Wrack
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/BackstabI take it you didn’t look at the wiki notes because you probably aren’t aware of what the coefficients actually are.
Or that for backstab (same coefficient as Blurred Frenzy) to hit harder than shatter, a thief needs to run at least two damage trait lines to match baseline no-might no-bonus MR, since it’d need external modifiers of about 30%.
I mean c’mon. I’m no expert mesmer, and I’ve never bothered to look at the exact math as to what damage numbers should be to account for trade-offs, but I know the coefficients better than the so-called experts insulting me for not knowing the class?
If you’re gonna be super arrogant and dismissive of the fact that having huge burst baseline on top of high DPS and the best offensive support in the game is a bad idea in the making, at least be somewhat correct about what you’re saying when accusing other people of having no authority when discussing facts to tell you what’s good and bad conceptual design.
You conveniently forgot the damage modifier traits in those classes. Thief for example has 7% from melee range, 10% from conditions on target, 7% from staff mastery, 20% on targets below 50% health, and 27% crit damage bonus from traits.
Mesmers would be insanely OP to have a high DPS attacks, thier current burst, and support.
It’s not happening fellas no matter how much we want it.
If it does lulz and abuse till nerfed….lol
Mesmers would be insanely OP to have a high DPS attacks, thier current burst, and support.
It’s not happening fellas no matter how much we want it.
If it does lulz and abuse till nerfed….lol
Say it with me now: PvE and PvP splits!
No, I’m looking at baseline shatter damage. The tooltips aren’t correct; they hit harder than they say they do.
I read to you the damage coefficients, not some random stuff I got from the tooltip. These coefficients have been gathered through tests done by other forum users both legit and non legit. These all factor into the same Damage Calculation as each other, there is no difference afaik between the way damage is worked out between classes for weapon skills.
Again, I’m not saying the mesmer’s DPS is comparable. Very far from it; I know the mesmer’s personal DPS is the lowest in the game. What I’m saying is that conceptually, the DPS isn’t there because the burst is without requiring any investment whatsoever. For a thief to get the same burst potential as a mesmer, it already needs to run an offensive trait line, and have conditional modifiers such as < 50% enemy health apply.
Except they don’t. A backstab will do about the same damage as a non invested single clone mind wrack with a 2 clone doing a little bit more than backstab if they all hit.
I also said that other classes have much much better mods. When you take that executioner trait it doesn’t just affect backstab does it? It affects all damage under 50% health. Mental anguish not only affects mind wrack solely but it has a component where the enemy must not be using skills to get the full mod from it adding another layer of work to get the full extent from it.
That’s without mentioning the sheer number of damage mods thieves do actually get if they choose them all by my count it’s 10%, 20% under 50% health, 7% crit damage while over 90% HP, 10% crit damage while enemy is above 50%, 10% precision to ferocity conversion, +250 ferocity while they have fury and extends fury, fury generator, 7% to melee weapons in DD and another 10% for bounding dodger. Remember, these are not additive but multiplicative so a lot of these mods will be much higher.
Rev is the premier example of damage mods running wild though.
Yes, the thief has much better personal DPS in its PvE build, but the chronomancer makes up for that per-encounter via the party-wide damage it provides to others, break bar damage, etc.
However, a thief does not hit like a truck without major problems in its build outside the realm of strict PvE. The meta PvE builds are pretty much unplayable in the PvP formats – I know when I come across a PvE thief in WvW, because it dies from any single remotely-powerful skill – straight 100 to 0, and cannot put up a fight in the slightest. It’s built to AA and it’s laughable to try and kill a good player with AA seeing as it dies to a stiff breeze (skill use is a DPS loss for max DPS PvE thief, and this build lacks Trickery, a mandatory PvP trait line, plus optimal PvE thief plays D/D since it has roughly a 1-2% damage increase on its AA as opposed to D/P).
I’m not arguing it’s fair for the thief, either. I directly opposed the AA damage buffs. They weren’t warranted, and the class isn’t fun to play in PvE because pressing 1 is boring. It got forced into the situation because the class was kicked-on-sight from raid groups, and ANet isn’t willing to re-balance the profession or multiple professions.
The point everyone is making though is that many classes have access to a wide number of damage mods that affect everything. They affect burst and sustained damage but are separated across multiple lines so you can’t pick them all in PvP/WvW without being extremely glassy. Mesmer doesn’t have that option and when they do decided to drop alacrity/quickness support the damage still has multiple problems.
- Long ramp up time, sometimes up to 20s to reach what most classes do in the first few seconds.
- Tied to a single target so when it dies or disappears so does your DPS as well as mostly being single target in nature.
- Laughably poor against multiple enemies due to a combination of the above and waiting on phantasm cool downs even in condi builds.
If other classes decide to go full selfish DPS, they can, it will give a damage increase and while they won’t reach the lofty heights of ele, thief and epi bounce necro but they won’t be complete crap and usually pull into the 20-25k mark. Some classes can even do good dps while retaining a varying amount of support too like guards, rev, ele, epi bounce necro and engineer.
Edit: Here’s the post Pyro was referring to about PSEA warrior buffing the raid vs chrono buffing, thought I’d track it down and save you the trouble as you won’t know what topic you’re looking for. Added reading
(edited by apharma.3741)
https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/4v76gq/qt_updated_guides_and_dps_benchmarks_for_all/
44,320 dps divided by Mesmer’s 7,828 = 5.7 rounded up to 6This has to stop. Even the second lowest class, the Ranger, manages do deal more than double the dps at 18,969. The Mesmer was in full Zerker.
But wait you ask, what about condi mesmer?
13.3k on a test golem (without confusion and torment’s added damage, but it wasn’t high enough anyway) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wC1NsFfVUcAnet why do you torture us so?
/endrant
Even if the thread has derailed a bit and although as said previously, the DPS number only comes out of a video showing the rotation (hence no buf so no validity for comparison… another video later showed something closer to 12 kDPS) one should not forget what the real DPS of the mesmer is in this situation.
For this, do an experiment: try an Ele rotation with and without quickness. The difference is the contribution of the mesmer in the ele optimal DPS.
On top of that you can do it for the entire raid because every DPS is in the same situation.
So the comparison would hold if it was done between DPS builds and DPS builds, not support.
Mesmers would be insanely OP to have a high DPS attacks, thier current burst, and support.
It’s not happening fellas no matter how much we want it.
If it does lulz and abuse till nerfed….lol
Say it with me now: PvE and PvP splits!
PvE=WvW
So try again.
Mesmers would be insanely OP to have a high DPS attacks, thier current burst, and support.
It’s not happening fellas no matter how much we want it.
If it does lulz and abuse till nerfed….lol
Say it with me now: PvE and PvP splits!
PvE=WvW
So try again.
- There are already mechanics split between PvE and WvW: confusion and retaliation
- WvW will surely collapse if mesmers get a stronger autoattack. Surely. For sure. No doubt about it.
Mesmers would be insanely OP to have a high DPS attacks, thier current burst, and support.
It’s not happening fellas no matter how much we want it.
If it does lulz and abuse till nerfed….lol
Say it with me now: PvE and PvP splits!
PvE=WvW
So try again.
- There are already mechanics split between PvE and WvW: confusion and retaliation
- WvW will surely collapse if mesmers get a stronger autoattack. Surely. For sure. No doubt about it.
There are more mechanics split between PvP vs WvW/PvE. Confusion/retaliation changes in WvW were done because the PvE code for them were game breaking. You were one of the ones actually trying to defend the original glamour spec thus now having all future opinions of balance to be laughed at and disregarded.
Mesmers would be insanely OP to have a high DPS attacks, thier current burst, and support.
It’s not happening fellas no matter how much we want it.
If it does lulz and abuse till nerfed….lol
Say it with me now: PvE and PvP splits!
PvE=WvW
So try again.
- There are already mechanics split between PvE and WvW: confusion and retaliation
- WvW will surely collapse if mesmers get a stronger autoattack. Surely. For sure. No doubt about it.
There are more mechanics split between PvP vs WvW/PvE. Confusion/retaliation changes in WvW were done because the PvE code for them were game breaking. You were one of the ones actually trying to defend the original glamour spec thus now having all future opinions of balance to be laughed at and disregarded.
Ah yes, the good old ad hominem attack: a trusty tool for all those that have come to the end of an argument and are at a total loss as to how to keep justifying an irrational belief.
I especially like how you ignored the fact that I’m actually right, you actually conceded it, and then tried to cover it all up with a completely unrelated ad hominem.
(edited by Fay.2357)
Mesmers would be insanely OP to have a high DPS attacks, thier current burst, and support.
It’s not happening fellas no matter how much we want it.
If it does lulz and abuse till nerfed….lol
Say it with me now: PvE and PvP splits!
PvE=WvW
So try again.
- There are already mechanics split between PvE and WvW: confusion and retaliation
- WvW will surely collapse if mesmers get a stronger autoattack. Surely. For sure. No doubt about it.
There are more mechanics split between PvP vs WvW/PvE. Confusion/retaliation changes in WvW were done because the PvE code for them were game breaking. You were one of the ones actually trying to defend the original glamour spec thus now having all future opinions of balance to be laughed at and disregarded.
Ah yes, the good old ad hominem attack: a trusty tool for all those that have come to the end of an argument and are at a total loss as to how to keep justifying an irrational belief.
I especially like how you ignored the fact that I’m actually right, you actually conceded it, and then tried to cover it all up with a completely unrelated ad hominem.
Like I previously stated your opinions on matters of balance are disregarded.
You earned it
That awkward moment you realise that a persons entire life for the past few years has been dominated by the hate he feels because somebody once defended a build used to tag zergs in the WvW mode of Guild Wars 2.
Funny thing is that due to how much stronger every class is now if you put it back in the game it wouldn’t be worth running.