Guild Wars 2

Someone is always at the bottom. That’s rather glib, but it’s basically saying that complaining about being the bottom DPS is not compelling reason to change it.

I don’t think it’s actually a problem to be the bottom DPS, but I do think it’s a problem to be the bottom and have relatively more difficulty accessing your damage. There should be some trade off there. I mean, Ele scores high damage … but the rotations are not for the unfocused.

I do think the solution here is to shift some fraction of the damage from illusions back to the direct damage from weapon skills. Damage doesn’t change, but accessibility does.

Obtena.7952:

Someone is always at the bottom. That’s rather glib, but it’s basically saying that complaining about being the bottom DPS is not compelling reason to change it.

I don’t think it’s actually a problem to be the bottom DPS, but I do think it’s a problem to be the bottom and have relatively more difficulty accessing your damage. There should be some trade off there. I mean, Ele scores high damage … but the rotations are not for the unfocused.

I do think the solution here is to shift some fraction of the damage from illusions back to the direct damage from weapon skills. Damage doesn’t change, but accessibility does.

There should be balance though, I don’t mind being the bottom DPS as long as it was closer. There shouldn’t be huge variances like there currently is.

For instance, if there was a 10% gap in DPS for selfish builds (top build does 36k, bottom does 33k) and support builds were around 30% lower (24k, which is about where PS war sits)

This way you could bring any profession to DPS, after that they just have to create some more supports to balance them further.

Obtena.7952:

Someone is always at the bottom. That’s rather glib, but it’s basically saying that complaining about being the bottom DPS is not compelling reason to change it.

I don’t think it’s actually a problem to be the bottom DPS, but I do think it’s a problem to be the bottom and have relatively more difficulty accessing your damage. There should be some trade off there. I mean, Ele scores high damage … but the rotations are not for the unfocused.

I do think the solution here is to shift some fraction of the damage from illusions back to the direct damage from weapon skills. Damage doesn’t change, but accessibility does.

Yes someone is always at the bottom. How is that justification for our damage being so much less than other classes though? Why do mesmers not get to enjoy mowing down mobs in PvE because one class has to “be at the bottom”? Being at the bottom doesn’t mean we have to be as far below as we are right now. We could have a rather large DPS buff and still be at the bottom, but at least then we wouldn’t need all day to kill 10 mobs.

OriOri.8724:

And some of the arguments “justifying” our horrible personal DPS is the party buffs we can bring (perma alacrity and quickness). But as someone has tested out on an ele and posted their results, both warrior and druid buffs contribute more to party DPS than the perma quickness/alacrity that a top tier chrono can provide while also still contributing far more personal DPS than we can.

Source please. I doubt any profession is able to “out support passive-dpsing” us in any way.

Xyonon.3987:

OriOri.8724:

And some of the arguments “justifying” our horrible personal DPS is the party buffs we can bring (perma alacrity and quickness). But as someone has tested out on an ele and posted their results, both warrior and druid buffs contribute more to party DPS than the perma quickness/alacrity that a top tier chrono can provide while also still contributing far more personal DPS than we can.

Source please. I doubt any profession is able to “out support passive-dpsing” us in any way.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Are-we-going-to-get-damage-buffs-for-LS3/first#post6253201

OriOri.8724:

Xyonon.3987:

OriOri.8724:

And some of the arguments “justifying” our horrible personal DPS is the party buffs we can bring (perma alacrity and quickness). But as someone has tested out on an ele and posted their results, both warrior and druid buffs contribute more to party DPS than the perma quickness/alacrity that a top tier chrono can provide while also still contributing far more personal DPS than we can.

Source please. I doubt any profession is able to “out support passive-dpsing” us in any way.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Are-we-going-to-get-damage-buffs-for-LS3/first#post6253201

That thread is very deceptive considering 1 mesmer is buffing the entire party while warrior buffs 5. To properly show the total DPS increase would be to test the DPS of a full raid party using a mesmer than just 1 warrior then 1 ranger. The difference would be very eye opening.

Now my personal stance is idc about pve dps, but mesmer needs no increases in pvp or wvw.

Azukas.1426:

OriOri.8724:

Xyonon.3987:

OriOri.8724:

And some of the arguments “justifying” our horrible personal DPS is the party buffs we can bring (perma alacrity and quickness). But as someone has tested out on an ele and posted their results, both warrior and druid buffs contribute more to party DPS than the perma quickness/alacrity that a top tier chrono can provide while also still contributing far more personal DPS than we can.

Source please. I doubt any profession is able to “out support passive-dpsing” us in any way.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Are-we-going-to-get-damage-buffs-for-LS3/first#post6253201

That thread is very deceptive considering 1 mesmer is buffing the entire party while warrior buffs 5. To properly show the total DPS increase would be to test the DPS of a full raid party using a mesmer than just 1 warrior then 1 ranger. The difference would be very eye opening.

Now my personal stance is idc about pve dps, but mesmer needs no increases in pvp or wvw.

Almost everyone in this thread has been advocating for a PvE only damage increase…….

OriOri.8724:

Azukas.1426:

OriOri.8724:

Xyonon.3987:

OriOri.8724:

And some of the arguments “justifying” our horrible personal DPS is the party buffs we can bring (perma alacrity and quickness). But as someone has tested out on an ele and posted their results, both warrior and druid buffs contribute more to party DPS than the perma quickness/alacrity that a top tier chrono can provide while also still contributing far more personal DPS than we can.

Source please. I doubt any profession is able to “out support passive-dpsing” us in any way.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Are-we-going-to-get-damage-buffs-for-LS3/first#post6253201

That thread is very deceptive considering 1 mesmer is buffing the entire party while warrior buffs 5. To properly show the total DPS increase would be to test the DPS of a full raid party using a mesmer than just 1 warrior then 1 ranger. The difference would be very eye opening.

Now my personal stance is idc about pve dps, but mesmer needs no increases in pvp or wvw.

Almost everyone in this thread has been advocating for a PvE only damage increase…….

Problem is WvW and PvE are the same in Anet’s eyes. This is why PvP only changes never saw the light of day in WvW. The exception for us was confusion, but we can all understand that one

Its funny how this thread is going, almost like majority of Mesmer threads:

Someone logically explains how and why Mesmer damage is abysmal and far behind majority of classes.

Someone goes: “Mesmser support is so OP.”

Logically someone explains that other classes providing similar or stronger support and still out dps Mesmer by a large margin.

Someone goes: “Mesmer deals ultra mega burst.”

Logically someone explains how and why the burst build (shatter) has mostly gone extinct since HoT release, because most classes survive-ability went through the roof, including some classes that deal better burst than Mesmer.

Someone goes: “if they buffed Mesmer they will own everyone and their dog in sPvP and WvW,” without any explanation of how or why.

=_=

OriOri.8724:

Obtena.7952:

Someone is always at the bottom. That’s rather glib, but it’s basically saying that complaining about being the bottom DPS is not compelling reason to change it.

I don’t think it’s actually a problem to be the bottom DPS, but I do think it’s a problem to be the bottom and have relatively more difficulty accessing your damage. There should be some trade off there. I mean, Ele scores high damage … but the rotations are not for the unfocused.

I do think the solution here is to shift some fraction of the damage from illusions back to the direct damage from weapon skills. Damage doesn’t change, but accessibility does.

Yes someone is always at the bottom. How is that justification for our damage being so much less than other classes though?

It’s not, but there doesn’t need to be a justification. Do you think Anet sits around a table and asks themselves if their ideas about the class design are ‘justified’? I mean, that kind of question doesn’t even make sense.

We already know they make adjustments and the timescale that these adjustments are made. If you don’t get them, then you can only assume it’s part of the overall class concept. Again, I’ve already described why I felt this is happening to Mesmers; the class concept weights damage heavily on illusions.

Our damage is not low because of PvE, that’s just a BS excuse.

What always holds back classes in PvE like mesmer is, as usual, PvP burst concerns.

It’s why shatters like Mindwrack and Cry of Frustration have been undiluted excrement for the entire game’s existence, and why our autoattack damage sucks, and why blurred frenzy does 1/3 the damage of a pistol whip or unrelenting assault.

And as long as we’re stuck with negligent, disinterested/lazy developers with no interest in real PvE class and build balance, things will stay this way.

Which is a good thing because GW2 sales and revenue is plummeting, and they deserve every bit of this downhill slide. The 6 month long waits for marginal balance patches with laughably small class changes, and inane revisions to skills no one uses in similarly absurd increments that leaves said skills still unusable (Shatterstone, fire scepter auto) while other skills in need of help get completely ignored.

They simply operate under the assumption that they got your money from box sales and gem store purchases upfront, and since they don’t have to keep your loyalty for a subscription fee, they are under no obligation to respect their playerbase.

Azukas.1426:

Now my personal stance is idc about pve dps, but mesmer needs no increases in pvp or wvw.

In damage, yes. Maybe. I mean in a PvP-setting there is a lot more going on than just the DPS-number you’re producing, type and speed of damage is important and all that.

But, and this is still my big problem with most classes:
If Mesmers are supposedly “strong” enough in layout X, shouldn’t we at least buff all skills (or even better, rework them entirely, most could be scrapped and replaced) not in that layout?

There are so many rubbish skills, it’s saddening. We all run around using the same few skills every time. Why? Because that’s what we’re balanced against.

And we don’t just have 55 skills of which around 30 are rubbish, we also have 540 possible trait combinations of which ~500 are useless. Then we have gear options, and stat options, and weapon choices.
I mean if I were part of the dev team, at some point I’d accept that ~95% of our character customization could be removed and it’d be a week before anyone would notice. Maybe it’s time to be more realistic about balance and design goals. -.-

I guess if I had to make a suggestion about it, it’d be this:

• Remove the trait choices. Too many options with too many actual impact.
• Each traitline gives 2-5 passive effects, according to the design goal of that traitline.
• Remove most gear options. Again, too many options for too little gain. There should be viable gear choices, but it’s enough to have “Full power damage” and “full defense”, we can mix&match those, we don’t need hybrid stats directly. Just doubles up on existent functionality.
• Re-work most utility skills. With so much cruft removed, focus the actual character customization into which skills you equip when. They should mostly be actual utility, not crucially important skills for the class as a whole. But in turn for having less options in total, make each actually powerful and make a difference. I’d rather have far less options if the ones I have are meaningful, instead of the ocean of mud we have right now.
• Most important “baked in” character power unique to that class should come from weapon skills, and weapons should be highly specialized, “This is your ranged damage weapon”, “This is your group support offhand”, etc.

Anyhow, sorry to ramble off on a tangent. I find balance discussions in GW2 to be “weird”. We are so up about numbers and omg omg why do they get a buff they are so noob unskill lolz in PvP already?!, we completely forget that the underlying class design and implementation is still so unfinished, there’s much bigger things to be worried about.

Zenith.7301:

The 6 month long waits for marginal balance patches with laughably small class changes, and inane revisions to skills no one uses in similarly absurd increments that leaves said skills still unusable (Shatterstone, fire scepter auto) while other skills in need of help get completely ignored.

This, too.
They are completely focused on the 15 skills and 20 traits which work, by now. And even then, they do so minimal changes. It’s no wonder balance isn’t getting any better if they don’t dare do sweeping changes, and those changes don’t come in 2-4 weeks intervals

Carighan.6758:

This, too.
They are completely focused on the 15 skills and 20 traits which work, by now. And even then, they do so minimal changes. It’s no wonder balance isn’t getting any better if they don’t dare do sweeping changes, and those changes don’t come in 2-4 weeks intervals

This is definitely the problem here. ANet needs to move their balancing schedule away from the PvP league schedule. Hell more people would probably play PvP if balancing came more often and people didn’t feel shoehorned into certain classes/builds. You cannot balance a game well if you schedule your balance patches around a portion of a minority of the game’s players.

Carighan.6758:

And we don’t just have 55 skills of which around 30 are rubbish, we also have 540 possible trait combinations of which ~500 are useless. Then we have gear options, and stat options, and weapon choices.

Ironically, the most recent balance patch actually did make some minor positive movements on some of our less-used weapons and skills. And the person you’re replying to immediately started frothing at the mouth in anger about it. ¯\_(?)_/¯

It is really wierd that there is such a high gap between the DPS numbers, many other classes have both high DPS and burst and support. I hope they make some improvements soon.

/thread

Saving a spot in this thread because I have to go to class. Will edit later. But Azukas if you even read the thread where that was posted, that damage output is actually effectively impossible for a chrono in a raid setting due to a number of reasons, and likewise in other content. The more “realistic” scenario was posted at 21k dps but also was not realistic at all and was further nerfed to 19.5k dps (in the comments in the thread, the OP admitted it), and people in the Reddit thread have even debunked that as very unlikely to ever happen in a real setting due to a number of factors, not least of which was the OP making several assumptions about the conditions in the raid.

Edit – First of all what Fay said is definitely important. In this test the golem was loaded up with an insane number of conditions to artificially boost phantasm dps. Its just not going to happen where you have every condition on the golem at all times, there just isn’t enough access to some of the conditions.

Secondly the mesmer is under the effects of permanent alacrity and quickness, which they have zero ways of giving to themselves with their build and rotation. That means that at least one other chrono would be required here, with their raid build DPS of around 7-8k DPS. That cuts the mean chrono damage down to 18k DPS right off the bat (even though it would be far lower under real circumstances).

Thirdly, the chrono in the video used SoI to share their boons (notably might and fury) with their phantasms. This both boosted the phantasm crit chance to 100%, but also gave them tons of might. Except in the actual game, SoI would prioritize the other players before sharing boons with the phantasms (and due to the boons used in the test, you know that there would have be other players around giving those boons to the chronomancer), which means the phantasms would be stuck at 80% crit chance and have no might. So on top of removing their might and severely reducing the phantasm dps potential, you also remove their guaranteed crits, which lowers their damage even further. And the phantasms are most of the DPS in this build, so it would hurt the actual DPS a whole lot.

Fourthly, due to the lower DPS of the staff, the chrono can’t use their shatters or they get a huge DPS loss while they have to switch to staff in order to resummon the warlocks. Yes chronophantasma helps, but if you noticed the chrono used it at the start of the video, which means that they lose at least 1 phantasm for even the first shatter they use. This means no elites unless you want to cripple your DPS for a while.

Fifth, and this is in line with fourth. Staff has much lower DPS than sword does. If any one of your phantasms die (which will happen) you have to cripple your DPS for a while in order to switch to staff to resummon it.

This build is anything but realistic. It makes multiple assumptions and uses at least 2 scenarios that simply will not happen in the game (having all condis be applied permanently, and having SoI always share all your buffs with all 3 of your phantasms). This sort of chrono DPS will never be seen in the actual game, just in the golem DPS test where you can setup up absurd scenarios like this.

Edit2 – And even considering all of these absurd and unrealistic scenarios, this DPS is still lower than that of other classes and you claim our DPS is fine somehow?

Azukas.1426:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10Zn39jJCxc

/thread

That test is seriously flawed. They’re use a target with all conditions permanently, and that’s obviously wrong. Bosses won’t have permanent fear, permanent slow, permanent immob, permament confusion, or permament blind. That immediately drops the dps by about 50% from the phantasms, or 30%-40%ish cumulative.

Additionally, this test ignores the real situations that cause mesmer dps to be bad. This number is only valid on a single target, it cannot be used to cleave, it cannot be used to change targets. Most fights require killing multiple things, meaning that it’s incredibly important that your dps folks are able to change targets. The only fights where this is slightly less necessary are Matthias and Sloth, but sloth requires you (the mesmer) to be pumping out reflects, and Matthias has a mechanic that will destroy your phantasms if it picks you.

Ultimately, mesmer dps can look okish on paper, like in this test. However, if you actually apply realistic situations, it suddenly becomes far worse.

Not to mention the Warlock has a really hard time hitting anything that isn’t a stationary golem on a perfectly flat surface.

Azukas.1426:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10Zn39jJCxc

/thread

At least post the whole thread from reddit, not a piece of info and mislead the other people.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/4zgpsr/full_dps_chronomancer_test_289koptimesmer/

30k dps at maximum optimization.

That’s pretty good

Azukas.1426:

30k dps at maximum optimization.

That’s pretty good

Now you are making stuff up. It was 28.9k, not 30k, and it was a broken test using scenarios that just will not happen in the actual game. It was an impossible DPS to achieve outside of that testing area.

OriOri.8724:

Azukas.1426:

30k dps at maximum optimization.

That’s pretty good

Now you are making stuff up. It was 28.9k, not 30k, and it was a broken test using scenarios that just will not happen in the actual game. It was an impossible DPS to achieve outside of that testing area.

This little interchange more than anything just goes to show how much he can’t handle being wrong. Even the op of that thread has stated how it’s unrealistic and was just a test for fun, and Azukas is like ‘look guys, I’m right because Mesmer dps is great’. /facepalm

Edit: He’ll probably reply to this comment with something like ‘but I am right, this test just goes to show what I’ve been saying all along’.

Fay.2357:

This little interchange more than anything just goes to show how much he can’t handle being wrong. Even the op of that thread has stated how it’s unrealistic and was just a test for fun, and Azukas is like ‘look guys, I’m right because Mesmer dps is great’. /facepalm

Edit: He’ll probably reply to this comment with something like ‘but I am right, this test just goes to show what I’ve been saying all along’.

The guy on Reddit even posted 19.9k is the realistic.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/4zgpsr/full_dps_chronomancer_test_289koptimesmer/d6w3ebo

Plus He is counting Blind and slow as persistant debuffs which I’d think is a bit questionable.

Oh god, Azukas didn’t even read the description on the dps test thread, Azukas literally take it as the bible of mesmer.

The tester cleary stat that: This build doesn’t support a group in any way and relies heavily on a group’s ability to maintain as many different conditions as possible on the boss for its DPS

That build require you to put boons and alacrity ON phantasmal warlock NOT ON other player, it’s impossible to do it in pvp or wvw or even pve, sure the number look really good but you can’t even do it on wvw gate, better look at realistic number: 19.9k

And the worst part about the realistic test is that it require 3 phantasmal warlock up, which is again impossible in pvp or wvw, let alone stacking 25 might on mesmer by himself.

ps. what a bumber, was happy when the realistic number actually beat ranger and war but after checking the condition it still impossible to do it

Hlord.5940:

Oh god, Azukas didn’t even read the description on the dps test thread, Azukas literally take it as the bible of mesmer.

The tester cleary stat that: This build doesn’t support a group in any way and relies heavily on a group’s ability to maintain as many different conditions as possible on the boss for its DPS

That build require you to put boons and alacrity ON phantasmal warlock NOT ON other player, it’s impossible to do it in pvp or wvw or even pve, sure the number look really good but you can’t even do it on wvw gate, better look at realistic number: 19.9k

And the worst part about the realistic test is that it require 3 phantasmal warlock up, which is again impossible in pvp or wvw, let alone stacking 25 might on mesmer by himself.

ps. what a bumber, was happy when the realistic number actually beat ranger and war but after checking the condition it still impossible to do it

Yea, even for the “realistic” test its not 100% realistic unfortunately. Phantasms just don’t survive indefinitely like that. Its going to be a problem with any mesmer dps test that relies primarily on phantasms (so all mesmer dps tests) and will do nothing but inflate their numbers. 19.9k is in fact slightly above the upper limit for realistic mesmer dps.

So you’re saying that only mesmer DPS tests on a stationary golem aren’t legit but every other classes are?

Azukas.1426:

So you’re saying that only mesmer DPS tests on a stationary golem aren’t legit but every other classes are?

Yeah, pretty much. Realistically it’s much more nuanced, but I know you don’t care.\

I love how you keep trying to defend it though. Maybe we need to get the PvE version of your “pro league mesmers” in to shut you down this time.

Azukas.1426:

So you’re saying that only mesmer DPS tests on a stationary golem aren’t legit but every other classes are?

Other classes don’t have the same mechanics that mesmers have. They don’t have to worry about phantasms dying. Necros do have to worry about minions dying, but their minions are not their main source of damage anyway, not that all Necros even use minions. On top of that, since other class’s dps (ranger and necro aside) come exclusively from themselves (meaning no pets/minions/illusions) all of their buffs will always affect damage. We have explained why the mesmer sharing his buffs with his phantasms in this test using SoI was wrong. The phantasms are lowest priority in the real game, which means they would never receive these buffs when the chrono casts SoI, which means in the test their damage is completely broken.

No, other class’s DPS tests are not perfect representations. But they also don’t have nearly as many blatant assumptions and just flat out impossible situations as this test does.

Fay.2357:

Azukas.1426:

So you’re saying that only mesmer DPS tests on a stationary golem aren’t legit but every other classes are?

Yeah, pretty much. Realistically it’s much more nuanced, but I know you don’t care.\

I love how you keep trying to defend it though. Maybe we need to get the PvE version of your “pro league mesmers” in to shut you down this time.

I just watched a mesmer do 30k deeps after reading 4 pages that mesmer deeps be bad…..kinda twilight zone right now y’know

Azukas.1426:

Fay.2357:

Azukas.1426:

So you’re saying that only mesmer DPS tests on a stationary golem aren’t legit but every other classes are?

Yeah, pretty much. Realistically it’s much more nuanced, but I know you don’t care.\

I love how you keep trying to defend it though. Maybe we need to get the PvE version of your “pro league mesmers” in to shut you down this time.

I just watched a mesmer do 30k deeps after reading 4 pages that mesmer deeps be bad…..kinda twilight zone right now y’know

Exploiting the Testing dummy is literally warned about in using the console for buffs.

That’s what you have here

If you read that reddit thread you’d see that 30k, is not 30k, it’s about 19k (the 19.9k is a lie as it assumes some conditions will be on the target that won’t be). Yes not nearly as bad as the original poster of this thread implied, but it’s still the worst by a good margin.

I’m still tripping right now. I mean I literally had 7k DPS 3 pages agoand the worst DPS....now I watch my class do 30k DPS but apparently realistically only 19.9k DPS, /eye roll. Either way we aren’t the worst DPS in the game anymore!!!! That title belongs to rangers!!!

GO TEAM MESMER!!!

p.s. /thread

Azukas.1426:

I’m still tripping right now. I mean I literally had 7k DPS 3 pages agoand the worst DPS….now I watch my class do 30k DPS but apparently realistically only 19.9k DPS, /eye roll. Either way we aren’t the worst DPS in the game anymore!!!! That title belongs to rangers!!!

GO TEAM MESMER!!!

p.s. /thread

Yep! You won! You’re totally right, off you go now!

Azukas.1426:

I’m still tripping right now. I mean I literally had 7k DPS 3 pages agoand the worst DPS….now I watch my class do 30k DPS but apparently realistically only 19.9k DPS, /eye roll. Either way we aren’t the worst DPS in the game anymore!!!! That title belongs to rangers!!!

GO TEAM MESMER!!!

p.s. /thread

Please don’t make me go find the picture of Condi Ranger doing 34k DPS >.< (and a realistic up around 25k IIRC)

Azukas.1426:

I’m still tripping right now. I mean I literally had 7k DPS 3 pages agoand the worst DPS….now I watch my class do 30k DPS but apparently realistically only 19.9k DPS, /eye roll. Either way we aren’t the worst DPS in the game anymore!!!! That title belongs to rangers!!!

GO TEAM MESMER!!!

p.s. /thread

So just to make this clear: Do we need serious DPS help in PvE now? Or not?

Mesmers clearly don’t need more DPS in PvE. We need more popcorn instead.

Mnom, mnom, mnom.