Guild Wars 2

Those who follow this thread..

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/sPvP-Class-Tier-List-Updated-6-30/page/15

..will have noticed that most half decent players are now placing the mesmer very low on the list – sometimes next to or below warrior. Keep in mind this is for tournaments and not hotjoin-hero.

Is this purely a result of the condition meta? Or have all the nerfs stacked up?
If the condition meta goes away, will mesmers climb again?
Are things alright the way they are? It’s fair to have a counter, but when that counter is SO popular..
Our own condi spec sucks compared to other classes, which doesn’t help.

Do you think any changes should be made to mesmers? Or do you think once the condi spam meta is addressed they will be fine again?

We will climb once the condition Meta moves on but we dont really bring anything that is required anymore – we are more of a plus then a requirement. I think some changes need to be made to the class, traits and weapon skills to really bring it back up to actually being worth taken.

Ok, the Mesmer isn’t one of the Condition Damage Dealer, but ehi, it’s not the worst class in the game. A good mesmer can kill necro, ele, war, guardian, ranger. Whit the shatter build you can di very high damage in one skill.
I don’t play so much tournaments and I’m only rank 28, but ehi, when my friends need to log in a good dps they log in theyr’re mesmer pg. High damage, high attack evasion, invisibility, moa transformation, transform enemy boons in debuffs and transform allies conditions in boons…
It’s good to dps, support and high survavibility.
I think it can be placed in Rank A, not a low position than A.

Silv.9207:

Ok, the Mesmer isn’t one of the Condition Damage Dealer, but ehi, it’s not the worst class in the game. A good mesmer can kill necro, ele, war, guardian, ranger. Whit the shatter build you can di very high damage in one skill.
I don’t play so much tournaments and I’m only rank 28, but ehi, when my friends need to log in a good dps they log in theyr’re mesmer pg. High damage, high attack evasion, invisibility, moa transformation, transform enemy boons in debuffs and transform allies conditions in boons…
It’s good to dps, support and high survavibility.
I think it can be placed in Rank A, not a low position than A.

This is specifically about TPvP, that is ALOT different from SPvP. Currently in TPvP we provide very little in terms of damage, survivability and really only offer a few utilities but none of these are required. Everything a Mesmer can do in TPvP another class and another build can do it and do it better.

Basically, you take a mesmer for:
- portal
- illusion of life
- high burst damage

Spirit rangers can do better reviving and necros/thieves are equal or better at burst damage. So that only leaves portal which isn’t enough to justify the amount of babysitting that’s needed to protect a mesmer in the current condi meta.

/edit: A mesmer can (in theory) be built to work against condi classes but this only works when taking other utilities than those mentioned and speccing in a less agressive way. That means, you now have a mesmer that works (partly) against condis but doesn’t provide anything relevant for the team.

Iavra.8510:

Basically, you take a mesmer for:
- portal
- illusion of life
- high burst damage

Spirit rangers can do better reviving and necros/thieves are equal or better at burst damage. So that only leaves portal which isn’t enough to justify the amount of babysitting that’s needed to protect a mesmer in the current condi meta.

/edit: A mesmer can (in theory) be built to work against condi classes but this only works when taking other utilities than those mentioned and speccing in a less agressive way. That means, you now have a mesmer that works (partly) against condis but doesn’t provide anything relevant for the team.

THIS. Until the Meta changes we will be VERY low/bottom of the classes/builds to take into TPvP and knowing Anet it will only get worse for us

Did you see preliminary PAX tournaments ?
I did not see a single mesmer in 6 matches (both EU and US).

Mesmer is not low…it is dead.

Great job Arenanet. Nice diversity.

Kicast.1459:

Did you see preliminary PAX tournaments ?
I did not see a single mesmer in 6 matches (both EU and US).

Mesmer is not low…it is dead.

Great job Arenanet. Nice diversity.

At least I saw one mesmer (REIGN team). No necessary to mention that REIGN loose…by far.

Good. Less nerfs will happen to the class that received the most.

Been out of sPvP since I started to see the rise of this condi cleave crap, so I may be a little outdated or misinformed.

A lot of teams getting back into sPvP use memser the old way, which was solo back point, but it dosen’t really work anymore since people are getting smarter and can kind of understand and out play a mes 1v1, and if your glass your to much of a liability solo, even if your crazy good.

Phant and tanky/condi are two diffrent stories but since they arn’t that common in med-high end meta play I’ll just focus on glass.

So that dosen’t help the old mindset of mesmer players who just get stomped, lose a point, team gets mad at them and get a bad rep.

The current I see more for mesmers right now is team fight carry / semi roam, little like a theif but with more set up and more AoE but less over all burst. Mesmers bring so much to a fight both support and damage wise so it’s great.

However I do have to agree with the current meta being a problem, Condi cleave will drop any glass mesmer, even the super tanky ones have a hard time keeping up, but then bring less to the fight. This is all while running portal and i-life which takes a lot away from the damage and I don’t even see competitive mesmers run that anymore without getting smacked down.

In short, Yes Rangers, Necros, are to blame imo. Engies too but to a lesser dagree.

That being said I do not think mesmer is unviable

well after all the nerfs, it’s time to buff the mesmer again and maybe its time to give the mesmer its role back that it had in gw1. i would love to get more punishing skills.

Phantaram.1265:

Keep in mind my tier list is made for this meta, small changes can bring certain classes up to A tier very suddenly and be great classes.

S Tier:
=Necromancer
=S/D Thief
-Spirit Ranger

A Tier:
+Guardian
-Engineer

B Tier:
=Warrior
= Elementalist
-Mesmer

Mesmer is probably the most volatile, the second a team wouldn’t run a s/d thief and necro it’d probably be S Tier lol

Something else to notice is that there aren’t as many C tier ratings being thrown out anymore. Someone mentioned there is maybe no B tier either. I agree with phant, really minor adjustments needed. Like probably a 5-10% change in a few numbers at most.

Overreaction both ways. When everyone said Mesmers were OP, they weren’t. Now everyone says they’re garbage, and they aren’t.

This isn’t the game doing this; it’s the players. Cool your jets.

Celeras.4980:

Overreaction both ways. When everyone said Mesmers were OP, they weren’t. Now everyone says they’re garbage, and they aren’t.

This isn’t the game doing this; it’s the players. Cool your jets.

i dont think we are garbage and i will always main a mesmer, but we do need condition buffs(less rng, more ctual stacking possibilities), we also need more reliable condition removals, that cant be interrupted that easily. also a lot of our skills do get interrupted and need to be looked at. i think te main problem is that anet kept nerfing us, kept buffing other classes and that created the big metashift.
lets hope the next patch brings some love for the mesmer.

You know, ive been trying really hard not to complain because I keep taking a month off and coming back, but this last time ive come back….

I just cant stand my mesmer. I do WvW more than PVP because I havent been playing enough to keep up with all the new builds, but I plan too. However, my mesmer has felt worthless lately. Ive never been best with my mes, but I was always decent and lately I feel like im at a disadvantage. My Thief Ranger and Ele all get the job done way better. Mesmer is my fav class to play but it makes me sad I cant compete. Mesmer is def better than I think it is, but I feel like Shatters dont scare people anymore and anyone can out condition me. I fought a burst ele last night over and over and just was just able to own me no matter what I did and it really had me thinking. Warriors are giving me a huge problem now too. Ugh I dunno sorry for complaining didnt mean too

if you play pvp you wouldn’t care about class since you can be any class you want. Any one can pick up any class and be pretty good at it after 20-30 matches. The 5% diff between a very well played character and and well played character isn’t meaningful in a 5 v 5 . In WvW mesmer are still very good .

Well I guess I am the wrong person here as I se this form a whole other pair of glasses. My critizism is not on teh mesmer class cause we dotn bring things needed for the current meta who consist of “be best at root you on a point” etc.

I say that the current tPVP meta playstyle with only 1 game mode, stan in smal cirkle and survive, is not only silly but rather booring. IF the meta had some otehr modes “capture the flag”, “defuse bomb” or “bust enemy base” we would se totaly other setups viable. suddenly a high mobile class with stealth would be amazing. I cant understand why they made the game META tPvP like it look now.

Any eSpoort who accualy work and that is not that compaly pour money on it. Its teh fact its fun. Current meta is not fun for most players and I dont se a future in it. Biggest playerbase is not even in the sPVP area, biggest organiced player pvp base you find in the WvWvW and sanboxing GvG atm or player created dueling guilds/clans.

I dont see a problem with mesmers current state, we destroy in most game areas if we just pic the right team/playstyle for the situation. I see a problem with current tPvP meta who not only are booring, it closes the door to several classes/setups.

/Osicat

Celeras.4980:

Overreaction both ways. When everyone said Mesmers were OP, they weren’t. Now everyone says they’re garbage, and they aren’t.

This isn’t the game doing this; it’s the players. Cool your jets.

I rly like it. If this keeps up at the same pace, as it did with nerfing. We would be so uber in comming year

And i dont even feel weak right now

Kicast.1459:

Did you see preliminary PAX tournaments ?
I did not see a single mesmer in 6 matches (both EU and US).

Mesmer is not low…it is dead.

Great job Arenanet. Nice diversity.

It’s all about guardian/engineer/ranger/necromancer/thief.
At least it’s balanced…

Mogar.9216:

if you play pvp you wouldn’t care about class since you can be any class you want. Any one can pick up any class and be pretty good at it after 20-30 matches. The 5% diff between a very well played character and and well played character isn’t meaningful in a 5 v 5 . In WvW mesmer are still very good .

Obviously you haven’t done any high end pvp lol. Everything you said was wrong, save the last bit, and even that’s starting to change. Do you even play this game?

Haru Kane.4623:

Mogar.9216:

if you play pvp you wouldn’t care about class since you can be any class you want. Any one can pick up any class and be pretty good at it after 20-30 matches. The 5% diff between a very well played character and and well played character isn’t meaningful in a 5 v 5 . In WvW mesmer are still very good .

Obviously you haven’t done any high end pvp lol. Everything you said was wrong, save the last bit, and even that’s starting to change. Do you even play this game?

So you think all those necros were all mains and they were just waiting in the shadows until the last patch and all of a sudden got recruited on to pvp teams?

Agree with Osicat, issue is with the current garbage meta and conquest design.

As for the guy saying you can just pick up another class – not if you are playing at a reasonably competitive level, not by a long shot. Also rerolling is a sign of imbalance and certainly not a solution.

They said there are coming out with new PvP modes like Capture the Flag so we can hope at least. ^^

Osicat.4139:

suddenly a high mobile class with stealth would be amazing.

Thief doesn’t need anymore advantages, Osi.

I believe ANET really needed mesmers out of tpvp for the following reason screen clutter a Mesmer with 3 clones in a fight would be too confusing for the viewer so they balanced the game in advance to benefit classes that were more screen friendly that’s why the condition appliers got improved, or you can call me conspiracy theory master whatevs

Evion.6298:

I believe ANET really needed mesmers out of tpvp for the following reason screen clutter a Mesmer with 3 clones in a fight would be too confusing for the viewer so they balanced the game in advance to benefit classes that were more screen friendly that’s why the condition appliers got improved, or you can call me conspiracy theory master whatevs

Because those teams that had spirit rangers or spirit weapon guardians weren’t causing any clutter at all right?

jportell.2197:

Evion.6298:

I believe ANET really needed mesmers out of tpvp for the following reason screen clutter a Mesmer with 3 clones in a fight would be too confusing for the viewer so they balanced the game in advance to benefit classes that were more screen friendly that’s why the condition appliers got improved, or you can call me conspiracy theory master whatevs

Because those teams that had spirit rangers or spirit weapon guardians weren’t causing any clutter at all right?

Oh and also : wells, turrets, thieves, grenades, bombs, minions, etc. Can barely understand what’s happening.

/tinfoil hat off

To come back on the thread, I was very surprised while watching the stream of Mist League that… there are no mesmer…

Osicat.4139:

Well I guess I am the wrong person here as I se this form a whole other pair of glasses. My critizism is not on teh mesmer class cause we dotn bring things needed for the current meta who consist of “be best at root you on a point” etc.

I say that the current tPVP meta playstyle with only 1 game mode, stan in smal cirkle and survive, is not only silly but rather booring. IF the meta had some otehr modes “capture the flag”, “defuse bomb” or “bust enemy base” we would se totaly other setups viable. suddenly a high mobile class with stealth would be amazing. I cant understand why they made the game META tPvP like it look now.

Any eSpoort who accualy work and that is not that compaly pour money on it. Its teh fact its fun. Current meta is not fun for most players and I dont se a future in it. Biggest playerbase is not even in the sPVP area, biggest organiced player pvp base you find in the WvWvW and sanboxing GvG atm or player created dueling guilds/clans.

I dont see a problem with mesmers current state, we destroy in most game areas if we just pic the right team/playstyle for the situation. I see a problem with current tPvP meta who not only are booring, it closes the door to several classes/setups.

/Osicat

This is what I’ve been saying since I realized it a couple months ago.

The reason Warrior and Mesmer’s have trouble with Spvp is the map design and game type more so than the classes design.

The sit on a point and nuke with condi’s simply favor’s other classes builds. Mesmer doesn’t have builds with that much sustain or avoidance without using stealth to compete with classes like Engi or Necro.

Also another point I’ll make is the tiny and I mean tiny area around some points in spvp. Some of the capture point “rooms” or surrounding furniture directly around the point are tiny and claustrophobic making hit and run classes like warrior and mesmer less than ideal. I fight warriors all the time in WvW that are very hard to kill, dangerously high crits and can escape almost anything. But in WvW those roaming warriors also have space to run out and then you’ll see them turn.

There’s no room in spvp unless you just abandon a point. I love playing classes that kite well in mmo’s thats why I play my Mesmer 99% in WvW, because I have room to move. All the spvp maps are claustrophobic. Skyhammer puts you basically directly on top of enemies.

I remember WARhammer had scenario maps big enough to have a front and a back line and multiple game types. . Remember Arathi Basin in WoW? Hutt ball in SWTOR. There’s so many other things they could do besides these little capture point boxes.

Godmoney.2048:

There’s no room in spvp unless you just abandon a point. I love playing classes that kite well in mmo’s thats why I play my Mesmer 99% in WvW, because I have room to move. All the spvp maps are claustrophobic. Skyhammer puts you basically directly on top of enemies.

Imagine if an sPvP battleground was entire Divinitys Reach, with the city split into 5 zones of control (center, NE, NW, SE, SW) and it was 50v50 players.

So much things they could have done, but no. They decided intentionally to make sPvP suck.

What we basically have now is our “quality scenario” is WvW and the spvp scenario were sacrificed over good gameplay for “visiblity” and wanting to make the action “viewable”

They should have made great scenarios from the start and then turned them into spvp down the road. Instead they’re doing it in reverse 1 year out.

People have being saying there needs to be more than just hold the pt model since release. I was one of those voices . I think Anet have the farm bet on the 1 game model and will not change their mind.

it only took about 5 months of people whining like little girls for them to nerf mesmer to uselessness. if you balance your game around whiners it turns into garbage.

Godmoney.2048:

What we basically have now is our “quality scenario” is WvW and the spvp scenario were sacrificed over good gameplay for “visiblity” and wanting to make the action “viewable”.

Ugh… those WvW maps have run their course. They are so stale and colorless.

Helios.3598:

Godmoney.2048:

What we basically have now is our “quality scenario” is WvW and the spvp scenario were sacrificed over good gameplay for “visiblity” and wanting to make the action “viewable”.

Ugh… those WvW maps have run their course. They are so stale and colorless.

Yep. I would say my number one wish is that the 3 cloned WvW maps were completely changed up geographically, aesthetically, the whole works.

I would love a Winter map or a Volcanic map where the main keep was in the side of a n active volcano.

Those maps have really grown stale.

Godmoney.2048:

Yep. I would say my number one wish is that the 3 cloned WvW maps were completely changed up geographically, aesthetically, the whole works.

I would love a Winter map or a Volcanic map where the main keep was in the side of a n active volcano.

Those maps have really grown stale.

That wont happen. It SHOULD happen, WvW has needed work from the day of release but has gotten very little after then crappy “Mastery” updates.

I find it hard to believe that anet are intentionally completely neglecting a huge part of their player base. Their priorities (living story above all else) are completely wrong IMO but I have faith that they are at least planning SOMETHING for WvW. Maybe the fact that we’ve only seen tiny updates recently means they’re planning something big? Maybe not.

Unfortunately our best condi removal (on shatter) is the GM trait on a line devoted almost entirely to Phantasm buffs… aka not shattering!
Talk about build synergy..

shadowraith.9124:

I find it hard to believe that anet are intentionally completely neglecting a huge part of their player base. Their priorities (living story above all else) are completely wrong IMO but I have faith that they are at least planning SOMETHING for WvW. Maybe the fact that we’ve only seen tiny updates recently means they’re planning something big? Maybe not.

The teams for Living Story and the team in charge of class balance and PvP aren’t the same.

fadeaway.2807:

Unfortunately our best condi removal (on shatter) is the GM trait on a line devoted almost entirely to Phantasm buffs… aka not shattering!
Talk about build synergy..

This is something I never understand eather. Why put a grandmaster focused on shattering in a tree where you first have to take 15% more dmg to phantasm and not to forget same tree where most phantasm madatory abilitys are found.

Its like hey had put the dmg buffs to phantasm as a GM in Illusion tree.

/Osicat

Osicat.4139:

fadeaway.2807:

Unfortunately our best condi removal (on shatter) is the GM trait on a line devoted almost entirely to Phantasm buffs… aka not shattering!
Talk about build synergy..

This is something I never understand eather. Why put a grandmaster focused on shattering in a tree where you first have to take 15% more dmg to phantasm and not to forget same tree where most phantasm madatory abilitys are found.

Its like hey had put the dmg buffs to phantasm as a GM in Illusion tree.

/Osicat

Well due to the IC nerf, shatter builds can summon phantasms faster than phantasm builds (unless the phantasm specs heavily into illusions which means missing out on a lot of useful traits)…

Very balanced….

Asuka Shikinami.5462:

Osicat.4139:

fadeaway.2807:

Unfortunately our best condi removal (on shatter) is the GM trait on a line devoted almost entirely to Phantasm buffs… aka not shattering!
Talk about build synergy..

This is something I never understand eather. Why put a grandmaster focused on shattering in a tree where you first have to take 15% more dmg to phantasm and not to forget same tree where most phantasm madatory abilitys are found.

Its like hey had put the dmg buffs to phantasm as a GM in Illusion tree.

/Osicat

Well due to the IC nerf, shatter builds can summon phantasms faster than phantasm builds (unless the phantasm specs heavily into illusions which means missing out on a lot of useful traits)…

Very balanced….

On paper that sorta makes sense that you would want the ability to summon faster for shatter since well you know more fuel for shatters. I think their thought was that phantasm builds want to leave their phantasms out so the reduced cooldown time for illusions wasn’t needed, but they didn’t factor in things like defensive abilities like blink or situations like multi mobs where if whatever you target dies after your phantasms first attack then you are stuck with fairly pitiful damage while waiting for the cd to end if you don’t take that trait, or that they put pHaste in the same line. I mean why would anyone want to haste their phantasms if they are just gonna blow them up lol.

ShadowPuppet.3746:

Asuka Shikinami.5462:

Osicat.4139:

fadeaway.2807:

Unfortunately our best condi removal (on shatter) is the GM trait on a line devoted almost entirely to Phantasm buffs… aka not shattering!
Talk about build synergy..

This is something I never understand eather. Why put a grandmaster focused on shattering in a tree where you first have to take 15% more dmg to phantasm and not to forget same tree where most phantasm madatory abilitys are found.

Its like hey had put the dmg buffs to phantasm as a GM in Illusion tree.

/Osicat

Well due to the IC nerf, shatter builds can summon phantasms faster than phantasm builds (unless the phantasm specs heavily into illusions which means missing out on a lot of useful traits)…

Very balanced….

On paper that sorta makes sense that you would want the ability to summon faster for shatter since well you know more fuel for shatters. I think their thought was that phantasm builds want to leave their phantasms out so the reduced cooldown time for illusions wasn’t needed, but they didn’t factor in things like defensive abilities like blink or situations like multi mobs where if whatever you target dies after your phantasms first attack then you are stuck with fairly pitiful damage while waiting for the cd to end if you don’t take that trait, or that they put pHaste in the same line. I mean why would anyone want to haste their phantasms if they are just gonna blow them up lol.

Agreed, on paper it seems ok but it has such a deep effect on the class and so many utility skills. Not to mention the changes to phantasm HP and signet of illusions.

IC would be more balanced as a 15 point trait in illusions so a mesmer could take the haste trait if they wanted – having to drop 20 from dueling lowers the actual spike phantasms have but gives more sustain and pressure. If only haste worked properly…

Good. Maybe I can finally have some peace ingame and in the class forum again instead of the constant barrage of crying and whining.

I’d rather play the underdog than the top-tier class, sorry. Means you can actually impress people with solid play.

Asuka Shikinami.5462:

ShadowPuppet.3746:

Asuka Shikinami.5462:

Osicat.4139:

fadeaway.2807:

Unfortunately our best condi removal (on shatter) is the GM trait on a line devoted almost entirely to Phantasm buffs… aka not shattering!
Talk about build synergy..

This is something I never understand eather. Why put a grandmaster focused on shattering in a tree where you first have to take 15% more dmg to phantasm and not to forget same tree where most phantasm madatory abilitys are found.

Its like hey had put the dmg buffs to phantasm as a GM in Illusion tree.

/Osicat

Well due to the IC nerf, shatter builds can summon phantasms faster than phantasm builds (unless the phantasm specs heavily into illusions which means missing out on a lot of useful traits)…

Very balanced….

On paper that sorta makes sense that you would want the ability to summon faster for shatter since well you know more fuel for shatters. I think their thought was that phantasm builds want to leave their phantasms out so the reduced cooldown time for illusions wasn’t needed, but they didn’t factor in things like defensive abilities like blink or situations like multi mobs where if whatever you target dies after your phantasms first attack then you are stuck with fairly pitiful damage while waiting for the cd to end if you don’t take that trait, or that they put pHaste in the same line. I mean why would anyone want to haste their phantasms if they are just gonna blow them up lol.

Agreed, on paper it seems ok but it has such a deep effect on the class and so many utility skills. Not to mention the changes to phantasm HP and signet of illusions.

IC would be more balanced as a 15 point trait in illusions so a mesmer could take the haste trait if they wanted – having to drop 20 from dueling lowers the actual spike phantasms have but gives more sustain and pressure. If only haste worked properly…

Yeah, pHaste is pretty lackluster
Illusionary Mariner 8.03s 8.03s
Illusionary Whaler 7.1s 5.27s
Phantasmal Berserker 5.57s 5.17s
Phantasmal Defender kitten 3.6s
Phantasmal Disenchanter 3.3s 2.6s
Phantasmal Duelist 5.4s 4.4s
Phantasmal Mage 6.3s 5.27s
Phantasmal Swordsman 3.2s 3.2s
Phantasmal Warden 8.07s 6.77s
Phantasmal Warlock 5.57s 4.13s

Seems like for warden it could actually be useful if you want to increase how much uptime you have for reflects with them, but I am like you.. I definitely don’t see the loss of the precision and crit damage being made up for in the decreased attack time.