Guild Wars 2

comparing the Mesmer to the Necromancer and all other classes that has pets the illusions die in 1 hit of all creeps ever since i started the game. its not even strong dps, the illusions deals to little damage and has a to high cool-down in order to have that major weakness. i know they deal major damage when they are setting themselves up and manages to get there illusions out, but it takes to long when they die of 1 hit, even the phantasmal warden witch is suppose to take damage for you dies in 1 hit
the illusions should follow you so that its harder for players to see where you are.
its suppose to be a tricky class and now its not even close to tricky. this class needs buffs.

There are two types of illusions. Clones and phantasm’s. Clones aren’t meant to deal a lot of damage and as you put more traits into ones that boost phantasm’s they start to do a lot more.

Their main purpose is to serve as utility in some capacity. The warden isn’t meant to take damage for you either, it reflects ranged attacks. Part of using it is knowing when to drop to down and then doing your best to protect it when the attack it does is on cool down.

The Mesmer isn’t a pet class really, and it’s best not to think of it that way. Clones are aggro management skills with fancy graphics, with a secondary burst damage/cc capability, Phantasms are sort of like DPS “turrets”.

And they’re all meant to be easily disposable, they’re not supposed to hang around. It’s not a class where you’re meant to “have pets out”, the general idea is to constantly summon and (situationally) shatter, summon and shatter, summon and shatter – bish, bash, bosh. It’s a fairly active and busy class to play.

Pets=/=Illusions

Pets are persistent and optional, you can CHOOSE to have pets.

Necro is not forced to take pets, neither is engineer, or elementalist, or guardian.

Those pets, also have different mechanics, some die from a timer and a health bar, but illusions also die from your opponent dying.

Think of illusions and phantasms as DoTs your opponents can kill.

The mesmer is a HEAVY pet class. We have uncontrollable pets which die over and over that we have to resummon over and over. The mesmer is the worst pet class there is. Persistent phantasms would be a welcome change. All we get now is a ultra annoying micro manage pet system…….its really bad.

Phantasms aren’t pets they are dispossable if you want to play a pet build play necro

The mesmer is a HEAVY pet class. We have uncontrollable pets which die over and over that we have to resummon over and over.

Yes it is. Best reroll now, while you can get out.

Mesmers are specifically not a pet class. The devs tried to make Mesmer more like the Mesmer from GW1. Since a lot of game mechanics were altered that disallowed a direct translation, they decided to throw in phantasms and clones. Phantasms and clones are living, breathing, hexes that are directly targeted on one enemy, just like a hex spell would be. This is how they handled the Mesmer’s previous long-term hexes that we saw in GW1. Long term hexes would be a bit overpowered with the current game balances, where boons last for a few seconds at best.

I repeat, phantasms and clones are NOT PETS. They are living, breathing, hexes. They die when your target dies, like a hex. They shatter on their target, not yours, like a hex would work. They can’t retarget, because you can’t take a hex and just swap it over to another person.

Also, Mesmer is a very busy and relatively difficult class to play. If you’re having troubles, don’t first point the finger at Anet and say “Fix it!!” like a two year old. The first thing is to learn why you’re having problems, and develop potential fixes to those problems that involve dexterity, skill rotation, and build.

I like the current way the illusions are handled (being more disposable and lasting only on one mob). It is nicely balanced with fast cast times on them. I find the class to have a good satisfaction of doing things right (ie: manipulating multiple phantasms on several mobs at once). Sure, it takes a few more key presses and a bit longer, but it looks cool and makes me feel good.

Also, this class is one that really gets a lot better with more traits. It is almost a night and day difference at level 40 than it was at 20.

I actually don’t want illusions that persist after a mob dies. I’m not really fond of pet classes.

Either way, there are some minor problems with the class, which are covered in other threads.

You can repeat all you want that phantasms are not pets..but they perform the same roll. The only difference is we can’t control them and they poof when the enemy dies. They are much worse than a ranger pet. For starters we have to slowly summon up 3 of them, secondly you cant move them to new targets, third you cant tell who thay are attacking half the time.

And finally they make up the majority of our DPS, and how annoying is it in open world events when mobs flock in, you cant even summon your “pets” fast enough you end up auto attacking as your only option. The “pets” poof and are on long timers.

Mesmers are a poorly designed pet class. They have all the mechanics of a pet class, a super dependency on these pets, and yet its poorly designed. At the very least they need to add a 4th clone slot. It does not even need to be represented by a purple circle . And it cant be used by phantasms, the 4th slot would be where the “extra” clone spawns instead of destroying a phantasm.

I am amazed this class went live like this to be honest.

So if the “pet” class has pets that don’t do anything like any other pets ever seen in any game ever… they’re still… pets?

You are no longer worth responding to as you just defeated your own argument, by first stating that something is X, but has no characteristics of X. If something is not anything like X, how can it be X?

Good day, sir.

Like what do they do that other pets have NEVER done? Do they auto attack…check…do they cause bleeds and cripple….check. They perform just as pets do. The only difference is we cant control them at all.

And please you cant respond, thats why you are not going to. You don’t have anything to offer. In fact you never even remotely explained what makes mesmer “pets” so unique and unlike any other pets seen ever in any game. So don’t respond it still does change the fact that mesmers have pets.

I don’t see how mesmer is a pet class. Illusions are more like a physical representation of dots. Its like calling an engineer a pet class cuz they drop turrets. I have absolutely no issues with mesmer illusions/shatters as they are.

Last thing I want to see is pet control added. Mesmer is fun because things can be a little unpredictable, and if you know how the class works and have an idea of how to spec you can do some really interesting things.

Enchanters in EQ1 had a summoned phantasmal sword/shield that fought for them and were uncontrollable, as well as the ability to coerce enemies and use them as pets…but they were never dubbed a pet class. They were crowd control/support with low damage. I feel the mesmer is in the same category; except the mesmer CAN put out some good dps.

Yes, we’re a pet class. However just because it doesn’t fit your definition of a “pet class” doesn’t mean it’s broken or needs to be changed. The best comparison I can think of is Theurgist pets from Dark Age of Camelot. You summon an uncontrollable pet that attacks one person and dies.

Anet isn’t going to change the fundamental structure of the class because you don’t agree with it. It’s not a traditional pet class and shouldn’t be thought of as such.

because AOE cripple is totally not overpowered as hell in WvW

I spam clones purely for this reason, they die, they explode, they cripple everybody who happens to hug the clone. Berserker Phantasm can easily do a few thousand damage to everybody who is bunched up, and thats good enough for me. Mesmer is a squishy class and you arn’t suppose to be up front and personal being full of I AM DPS CLASS (really good players can make the melee build work with excellent effect though – I use the melee build, its deadly in sPVP)

I suppose you wouldn’t also know that currently, Mesmers and Necromancers are two of the absolute hardest classes to kill? Seriously our survivability is through the roof. I outran 45 people in WvW who zerged on my 5 man guild group because we were going around taking supply camps. The rest of my group died. I ran away, I was also stunned about 6 times running away. Mesmer has a ridiculous amount of get out of jail free cards.

Also, with the right build. Phantasmal Berserker can hit 5k crits. And inflict bleeding, and cripple. Now if we turned them into pets where they stuck around forever constantly changing targets, Wouldn’t that be just a little bit op?

Our ‘Pets’ also spawn right next to the enemy we target, for phantasms, this allows maximum damage and gurrenteed conditions to target. Ranger pets and necro pets, have to run up towards the target. In 90% of engagements, most of them die before they even get anywhere near a target.

here’s what i think about mesmers

they aren’t exactly a “pet” class, but rather they act more like a “summoner” class

the difference between “pets” and “summons” to me is that pets are just that, npcs that follow you around and fight along side you like a little side kick

summons on the other hand, do a single attack or effect and disappear, and the summoner would rely on using these summons as their main form of attack

the mesmer’s illusions aren’t meant to stick around like a pet, they’re meant to perform a few attacks and disappear, and you as the mesmer rely on constantly resummoning these as though they were attacks themselves rather than pets that stick by you no matter where you go

The problem is they have to boost it in such a way where they aren’t even more strong in 1v1 situations (I’m sure many of you agree mesmers are VERY good at 1v1 pvp) while have the buffs be enough to satisfy the idea you’re proposing (as well as other aspects of the game such as PvE)

Cromx.3941:

Like what do they do that other pets have NEVER done? Do they auto attack…check…do they cause bleeds and cripple….check. They perform just as pets do. The only difference is we cant control them at all.

And please you cant respond, thats why you are not going to. You don’t have anything to offer. In fact you never even remotely explained what makes mesmer “pets” so unique and unlike any other pets seen ever in any game. So don’t respond it still does change the fact that mesmers have pets.

In your own words, the differences between “pets” and illusions:
we can’t control them
they poof when the enemy dies
we have to slowly summon up 3 of them
you cant move them to new targets
they make up the majority of our DPS

These are all direct quotes that you typed that make illusions a completely different creature than pets. Pets are controllable. They last for longer than one target. True pet classes are either limited to just one, with ranger, or multitudes, with necros, not just three. Real pets are much more engaged and can be swapped to different targets, and real pets are typically supplemental to the character’s DPS, not taking the majority of the DPS burden upon themselves.

You said that illusions are pets, and then ranted on about all the major differences between illusions and pets… So then… if there are so many differences, how can you possibly consider them to be pets? This is the problem you are having. You are convinced that they are poorly designed pets, when in reality they are masterfully designed hexes.

And the main reason that I did not explain what makes mesmer pets so different and unique is because they are not pets. I explained that they are living, breathing hexes and you chose to ignore my post.

Xethos.3179:

The problem is they have to boost it in such a way where they aren’t even more strong in 1v1 situations (I’m sure many of you agree mesmers are VERY good at 1v1 pvp) while have the buffs be enough to satisfy the idea you’re proposing (as well as other aspects of the game such as PvE)

We can be strong in PvE. There are many different types of strength and power than the numbers we see above an enemy’s head. For example, when I PvE, unless I’m really going crazy pulling 5+ mobs, I rarely take any damage because I effectively use my clones to aggro drop. Clones are basically a free aegis. It’s amazing. That’s a special kind of power that no other class can boast of. No other class can go for hours without taking a single point of damage.

Temariah.9372:

Xethos.3179:

The problem is they have to boost it in such a way where they aren’t even more strong in 1v1 situations (I’m sure many of you agree mesmers are VERY good at 1v1 pvp) while have the buffs be enough to satisfy the idea you’re proposing (as well as other aspects of the game such as PvE)

We can be strong in PvE. There are many different types of strength and power than the numbers we see above an enemy’s head. For example, when I PvE, unless I’m really going crazy pulling 5+ mobs, I rarely take any damage because I effectively use my clones to aggro drop. Clones are basically a free aegis. It’s amazing. That’s a special kind of power that no other class can boast of. No other class can go for hours without taking a single point of damage.

This. We don’t have a lot of burst damage but we have a ton of tricks that let us dwindle down our target and not take much damage.

Ceribis.8104:

Temariah.9372:

Xethos.3179:

The problem is they have to boost it in such a way where they aren’t even more strong in 1v1 situations (I’m sure many of you agree mesmers are VERY good at 1v1 pvp) while have the buffs be enough to satisfy the idea you’re proposing (as well as other aspects of the game such as PvE)

We can be strong in PvE. There are many different types of strength and power than the numbers we see above an enemy’s head. For example, when I PvE, unless I’m really going crazy pulling 5+ mobs, I rarely take any damage because I effectively use my clones to aggro drop. Clones are basically a free aegis. It’s amazing. That’s a special kind of power that no other class can boast of. No other class can go for hours without taking a single point of damage.

This. We don’t have a lot of burst damage but we have a ton of tricks that let us dwindle down our target and not take much damage.

I agree with the tricks part, but not with the lack of burst damage.
It’s all about the build and playing around traits etc.

My favorite thing about the mesmer is that my highest damage build doesn’t utilize the traits that max power/precision/crit, it’s the + phantasm and illusion damage.

I hit hard, mobs get destroyed quick, GS2 + 3 + 4 swap to sword pistol, 4 + 5 run up 2. If they’re not dead, get some gear bros, and change your traits. There are a tonne of ways to burst with this class, and frankly… I do much more damage than I expected to when I rolled a Mesmer, and things die quiiiiiiiiiiick

Mesmers are not a pet class; the illusions are merely distractions, that’s it. Illusions don’t follow the player, so you can’t classify them as “pets”. Mesmers are fine, especially with the GS update.

Mesmers are a pet class. I’m not sure why people think it isn’t. It’s a super micro managment pet class of the worst kind and if that is not your thing… well, you may be playing the wrong class. I would like to see a boost in the direct aoe dmg department to make farming DE easier, but mesmers are pretty powerful as is if played right.

I hate threads where the OP posts an opinion then never posts again about the subject.

Basically makes this entire thread pointless as they have abandoned their point of view.

People like the ones that agreed with this post.. are the ones that makes me lose faith in human kind..
dear god..
Please go play some other class.. and leave our mesmers as they are right now.. zzz

Gaasvaer.5836:

comparing the Mesmer to the Necromancer and all other classes that has pets the illusions die in 1 hit of all creeps ever since i started the game. its not even strong dps, the illusions deals to little damage and has a to high cool-down in order to have that major weakness. i know they deal major damage when they are setting themselves up and manages to get there illusions out, but it takes to long when they die of 1 hit, even the phantasmal warden witch is suppose to take damage for you dies in 1 hit
the illusions should follow you so that its harder for players to see where you are.
its suppose to be a tricky class and now its not even close to tricky. this class needs buffs.

Your crazy yo, you just gotta learn to play it.

play mesmer like a pet class and fail terribly, must be the class that is broken.

You’r logic is flimsy at best, mesmer is not a pet class, they just have spells that can be killed, go roll ranger/necro if you want a pet class.

I’m sorry a lot of people apparently don’t enjoy the profession. Fortunately, there are seven others that are also loads of fun and have each their own individual mechanics. So if you don’t like illusions, I assure you there’s an alternative profession you can play that has just the pet or non-pet mechanic you’re looking for.

That said, let me take this opportunity to say I LOVE MY MESMER. I say that not just to be contrary but to provide the less vitriolic viewpoint espoused by those of us who think the profession mechanic is perfectly fine.

My Mesmer just hit 35 this evening, and only in the last few levels have I begun to feel like I’m getting a grasp on how to take advantage of him. Believe me, the levels between about ten and thirty are pretty rough, and there were times I got frustrated and played something else for a few levels. I expect more rough patches before 80 as well. But I couldn’t stay away, and a key reason for that was the time currency aspect of the shatter mechanic—the juggling of illusion living damage and shatter burst damage with the expected life of the mob in order to maximize efficiency. It, to me, is immensely satisfying gameplay, and I would strongly object to any major changes to the fundamental mechanics of the profession. Balance changes? Fine. Usability tweaks and bug fixes? Of course; the GS change was a Godsend.

But if I wanted a conventional pet I’d play a ranger. I just don’t understand where the hostility comes from. How can you be invested in the profession enough to care and yet lobby that it be turned into another profession? If you think it’s a departure from the GW1 Mesmer by having AI-assisted mechanics, I guess I see your point thematically, but having played both, I feel like this is at least as faithful a successor as the other direct descendent professions: we got the interrupts, the punishment play, the ability disables, and the spikes. The only thing we’re missing is energy denial, and it’s not in the game at all. And Lord have mercy, we’re slippery.

Are there things I’d change about illusions? Sure. The way stats are allocated is trying at times, and I could see shifting some power from traits to baseline. Adding some default (i.e., non-traited) functionality for clones that instantly die would be a welcome addition, as would anything that incentivized good shattering in a mobile environment (e.g., a trait that would reduce phantasm skill cooldown if they’re shattered within .5 seconds prior to their target’s death). And who wouldn’t love more on-demand AOE?

But this conflation between illusions and every other pet in the history of MMOs is getting a little ridiculous. Someone pointed out earlier that the closest analogy is the DAOC Theurgists, and I couldn’t agree more. The “pets” are walking damage/utility delivery systems—not NPC allies. If you want to be taken seriously in the conversation that needs to happen about overall inter-profession balance, the least you can do is show a basic understanding of what this profession is and is not. And if it’s not for you, accept that you’re the one who needs to find a way to play the game that makes you happy—not all us mesmers.

Mesmer is not a pet class, mesmers are good how they are stop talking negative about a class you just dont understand. It has a high learning curve and if some ppl dont have the patience for it then try another class mates

Moved to its own thread

You can repeat all you want that phantasms are not pets..but they perform the same roll. The only difference is we can’t control them and they poof when the enemy dies. They are much worse than a ranger pet. For starters we have to slowly summon up 3 of them, secondly you cant move them to new targets, third you cant tell who thay are attacking half the time.

So in other words, they’re not at all like Ranger pets, since their targetting, creation, dissolution and replacement works entirely different? Oh, and their skills also do. And their behaviour.
I see where they’re related, yeah.

Hmm, I get the feeling my post will be lost in the semantic arguments about what a pet is, so I’ll post it in its own thread.

Jumping into a full set of crafted rare gear at level 35 makes the Mesmer seem exceedingly overpowered, more so than the other two classes I have levelled past this point (both of which had full rares at 35).

I don’t really see AE resistance as something which specifically Mesmers need (Rangers tend to lose both pets within seconds too when AE flies around), but it would be an interesting solution.

The question would however be, what constitutes AE? Only circle-based stuff? Because for example melee weapons all slice, but this is their main balancing point compared to the otherwise always-superior ranged weapons (on a general level). Including them would make sense to make Clones be … actually nm, that would trivially show which one the real one is.