Guild Wars 2

Is this all mesmer is in most of the game modes, is there really no use or viable utility for them aside from this now ? Is it because nothing else is good or because the game content is dictating this route ?

I come from a long history of GW1 mesmer. I loved it truly my favorite class/skills across any game I’ve ever played including pen & paper rpgs and all console/pc games over decades. I really want to get into mesmer in GW2 but it seems like its just boon share and spam skills that give alacrity now? I’ve seen people raging at mesmers even in open world content where it doesn’t matter much for not being setup for this.

When the game gets you down do what I do

For raids and some fractals, chronos are more useful as an alacrity/quickness bot because our personal DPS can be so miserable due to our class design. Do note that its entirely possible to kill the raid bosses without alacrity so you aren’t required to be an alacrity bot. The people who would try to force you into that role without question are not players you want to be running raids with anyway. It will be much easier for you to find a group that will take you on if you run the alacrity/quickness build, but by all means it is not necessary to be successful. And if you aren’t running that build and the group fails, its not your fault either. Raids wipe because multiple people screw up, not because 1 mesmer made a mistake.

For open world PvE play the build you like, it doesn’t matter. Mesmer is still an incredibly fun class if you don’t force yourself into constantly playing the alacrity/quickness build. If people rage at you its their problem, not yours. They are the ones who ca’t be bothered to play anything that isn’t listed on metabattle, not you. Just ignore them, block them if they get on your nerves.

OriOri.8724:

For raids and some fractals, chronos are more useful as an alacrity/quickness bot because our personal DPS can be so miserable due to our class design.

So it basically just comes down to the fact that those skills are too good and other utility / damage the class can bring is just weak by comparison? I’m all for playing what ever is fun but if other builds fall into a category where say they are considerably weaker than any other class in the game at said task it just isn’t going to sit well with me in terms of over all game play experience even if it’s just open world.

So when you say ‘reduced’, you automatically create a comparison. Are you comparing to pre-hot mesmer or to GW1 mesmer?

Fay.2357:

So when you say ‘reduced’, you automatically create a comparison. Are you comparing to pre-hot mesmer or to GW1 mesmer?

I’m comparing it to it’s other skills not necessary it’s existence pre-hot or exclusively GW1 (but GW1 comparison is certainly there). Just mainly where the focus of their slotted skills and weapons compared to the variety that exists gets reduced to the set that falls into facilitating boon sharing/alacrity. It may just be the other skills need to be re-balanced to some degree to make them more appealing comparatively.

I’m also still not sure if this is the community unable to think outside of a box or if the content and game design is just dictating the route it has taken.

Shadow Bane.9362:

Fay.2357:

So when you say ‘reduced’, you automatically create a comparison. Are you comparing to pre-hot mesmer or to GW1 mesmer?

I’m comparing it to it’s other skills not necessary it’s existence pre-hot or exclusively GW1. Just mainly where the focus of their slotted skills and weapons compared to the variety that exists gets reduced to the set that falls into facilitating boon sharing/alacrity. It may just be the other skills need to be re-balanced to some degree to make them more appealing comparatively.

I’m also still not sure if this is the community unable to think outside of a box or if the content and game design is just dictating the route it has taken.

Well, lets compare it to pre-hot mesmer.

Pre-hot mesmer: Garbage outside of portal. Taken to drop portal and shuttle the real classes to the next fight.

So….yeah. Current mesmer requires an entire build with a complex and difficult rotation to maintain buffs as an absolutely essential part of any party. Pre-hot mesmer was taken for your ability to pick up an FGS, drop portal, and run to the next fight really quick. There was no “reduction” like you’re claiming. Only an expansion of capabilities and uses.

Fay.2357:

Shadow Bane.9362:

Fay.2357:

So when you say ‘reduced’, you automatically create a comparison. Are you comparing to pre-hot mesmer or to GW1 mesmer?

I’m comparing it to it’s other skills not necessary it’s existence pre-hot or exclusively GW1. Just mainly where the focus of their slotted skills and weapons compared to the variety that exists gets reduced to the set that falls into facilitating boon sharing/alacrity. It may just be the other skills need to be re-balanced to some degree to make them more appealing comparatively.

I’m also still not sure if this is the community unable to think outside of a box or if the content and game design is just dictating the route it has taken.

Well, lets compare it to pre-hot mesmer.

Pre-hot mesmer: Garbage outside of portal. Taken to drop portal and shuttle the real classes to the next fight.

So….yeah. Current mesmer requires an entire build with a complex and difficult rotation to maintain buffs as an absolutely essential part of any party. Pre-hot mesmer was taken for your ability to pick up an FGS, drop portal, and run to the next fight really quick. There was no “reduction” like you’re claiming. Only an expansion of capabilities and uses.

Then they nerfed signet of inspiration and everyone’s love of mesmer died. Suddenly parties didn’t care about a mesmer and the utility, it’s a DPS liability now so off you go. Back to the 2014 FGS era with you, do not pass go without a FGS, do not collect 60 tokens /cry.

Seriously I’m waiting for them to do some heavy handed nerf to the signet and remove mesmer from most PvE.

At least from a PvE perspective – yes, their role is mostly Support, but there’s nothing inherently wrong with that.

Most RPGs with classes will typically have a class that multiplies the potency of the rest of the party to the n’th degree.

In some games it’s a Bard, in others in a Mage, and in GW2 it’s the Chrono. If we’re talking about PvE, if you don’t enjoy support, I would maybe suggest leveling another class!

My guess, is an elite specialization will be released for Mesmer that will significantly improve their personal DPS.

If this is really upsetting you, this always brightens my day.

There is a trend to the abilities of the classes

• shapeshifters (revenant, engie, ele)
• offense (warrior, thief, necromancer)
• defense (guardian, ranger, mesmer)

The elite specs changed playstyle but didn’t drastically alter flavor.

• herald/scrapper/tempest each can’t be categorized as offense or defense
• berserker/daredevil/reaper don’t boost the team
• chronomancer/druid help the team more than they hurt the enemy.

Only dragonhunter was something unusual. Just one of its new skills, Fragments of Faith, helps allies. Which is net 0 because Virtue of Courage lost team support when it became Spear of Justice. All of its other skills damage or debuff enemies. There is no trait to change that.

Compare that to Chronomancer. Of all the new skills only Well of Calamity cannot help allies (aoe stability was part of Gravity Well’s initial design). But even Calamity and Gravity can be traited to benefit allies with alacrity.

We are tired of helping others all the time. If guardian get new flavor so should we.

The next elite spec needs to be like dragonhunter, or berserker/daredevil/reaper. It should not help our team through buffs/heals/damage mitigation/condi removal/support I haven’t thought of. It should help them indirectly by us killing stuff, and debuffing the enemy.

Edit: Dragonhunter actually has net 1 ally affecting skills, because all guardian weapons are required by law to have symbols that give boons, and the Symbol of Energy gives aoe vigor. Sue me.

Mixchimmer.7230:

At least from a PvE perspective – yes, their role is mostly Support, but there’s nothing inherently wrong with that.

Our unique support (Alacrity) got nerfed pretty heavily, though. And our other forms of support (Quickness, reflects) are things that other classes can provide along with with better personal DPS.

Chronos still have a permanent slot in organised content, but it’s mainly because our DPS is so minimal to begin with that a group loses almost nothing by having us swap out Zerker pieces for toughness gear.

That said, as Fay suggests, it’s a better situation than pre-HoT. Not a great situation, but better.

Daniel Handler.4816:

There is a trend to the abilities of the classes

• shapeshifters (revenant, engie, ele)
• offense (warrior, thief, necromancer)
• defense (guardian, ranger, mesmer)

The elite specs changed playstyle but didn’t drastically alter flavor.

• herald/scrapper/tempest each can’t be categorized as offense or defense
• berserker/daredevil/reaper don’t boost the team
• chronomancer/druid help the team more than they hurt the enemy.

Only dragonhunter was something unusual. Just one of its new skills, Fragments of Faith, helps allies. Which is net 0 because Virtue of Courage lost team support when it became Spear of Justice. All of its other skills damage or debuff enemies. There is no trait to change that.

Compare that to Chronomancer. Of all the new skills only Well of Calamity cannot help allies (aoe stability was part of Gravity Well’s initial design). But even Calamity and Gravity can be traited to benefit allies with alacrity.

We are tired of helping others all the time. If guardian get new flavor so should we.

The next elite spec needs to be like dragonhunter, or berserker/daredevil/reaper. It should not help our team through buffs/heals/damage mitigation/condi removal/support I haven’t thought of. It should help them indirectly by us killing stuff, and debuffing the enemy.

Edit: Dragonhunter actually has net 1 ally affecting skills, because all guardian weapons are required by law to have symbols that give boons, and the Symbol of Energy gives aoe vigor. Sue me.

Actually DH has a lot more support than you realise. The reduced cool down of wings of resolve and it’s increased AoE heal nature was a direct buff a DH support. Shield of courage blocks attacks for allies to as well as keeping it’s aegis, sounds like support to me. The rest of the trait line is selfish damage or control I’ll agree there but don’t under sell wings of resolve and shield of courage especially as DH increases damage by more than any other trait line for guards.

Wasn’t there a GW1 Mesmer build that every Mesmer was required to have or you would never get on any dungeon runs.

Something based on Visions of Regret… An “unkillable” necro/monk would run into an area and just gather all the mobs around him and let them hammer on him. While a Mesmer just spammed VoR over and over until the mobs killed themselves.

What I’m saying is that GW1 had its share of “you must do this” builds as well.

SlimChance.6593:

Wasn’t there a GW1 Mesmer build that every Mesmer was required to have or you would never get on any dungeon runs.

Something based on Visions of Regret… An “unkillable” necro/monk would run into an area and just gather all the mobs around him and let them hammer on him. While a Mesmer just spammed VoR over and over until the mobs killed themselves.

What I’m saying is that GW1 had its share of “you must do this” builds as well.

I’m sure there was something like that. Every game has a meta, a best way to play.

Look, all this complaining is nothing more than just a classic case of heavily rose tinted glasses. In this particular case, it comes with a side dish of “waaaaaaaaah I want to dpssssssss”

apharma.3741:

Daniel Handler.4816:

There is a trend to the abilities of the classes

• shapeshifters (revenant, engie, ele)
• offense (warrior, thief, necromancer)
• defense (guardian, ranger, mesmer)

The elite specs changed playstyle but didn’t drastically alter flavor.

• herald/scrapper/tempest each can’t be categorized as offense or defense
• berserker/daredevil/reaper don’t boost the team
• chronomancer/druid help the team more than they hurt the enemy.

Only dragonhunter was something unusual. Just one of its new skills, Fragments of Faith, helps allies. Which is net 0 because Virtue of Courage lost team support when it became Spear of Justice. All of its other skills damage or debuff enemies. There is no trait to change that.

Compare that to Chronomancer. Of all the new skills only Well of Calamity cannot help allies (aoe stability was part of Gravity Well’s initial design). But even Calamity and Gravity can be traited to benefit allies with alacrity.

We are tired of helping others all the time. If guardian get new flavor so should we.

The next elite spec needs to be like dragonhunter, or berserker/daredevil/reaper. It should not help our team through buffs/heals/damage mitigation/condi removal/support I haven’t thought of. It should help them indirectly by us killing stuff, and debuffing the enemy.

Edit: Dragonhunter actually has net 1 ally affecting skills, because all guardian weapons are required by law to have symbols that give boons, and the Symbol of Energy gives aoe vigor. Sue me.

Actually DH has a lot more support than you realise. The reduced cool down of wings of resolve and it’s increased AoE heal nature was a direct buff a DH support. Shield of courage blocks attacks for allies to as well as keeping it’s aegis, sounds like support to me. The rest of the trait line is selfish damage or control I’ll agree there but don’t under sell wings of resolve and shield of courage especially as DH increases damage by more than any other trait line for guards.

It’s not an undersell. They took two skills that supported allies before and increased potentcy, but decreased the radius of Resolve and Courage by more than half. They both had casts now that prevent virtue bombs with https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Renewed_Focus

So 2 new support skills (symbol/fragments of faith) + 2 more potent virtues -3 virtues with less range /no benefit to the team (spear of justice)= net 1 support skills gained
0 if you include the trait https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Soaring_Devastation which made their support skill hurt people.

Versus 1 well of calamity + 1 gravity well – 1 original design of gravity well (which gave allies stability) = net 1 skill that can’t help allies

0 if you include the trait https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/All's_Well_That_Ends_Well which made our offensive skills help people.

Get the difference?

The helpfulness of Chronomancer was everywhere.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Master_of_Fragmentation
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bountiful_Disillusionment

Our shatter gave resistance and applied a debuff on enemy dps.

Next time the shatter should give allies retaliation and put a damage condition on enemies.

0 boons that arent might/fury/retaliation. 0 conditions that aren’t damage conditions. We can’t always be the helpers.

tobascodagama.2961:

Mixchimmer.7230:

At least from a PvE perspective – yes, their role is mostly Support, but there’s nothing inherently wrong with that.

Our unique support (Alacrity) got nerfed pretty heavily, though. And our other forms of support (Quickness, reflects) are things that other classes can provide along with with better personal DPS.

Chronos still have a permanent slot in organised content, but it’s mainly because our DPS is so minimal to begin with that a group loses almost nothing by having us swap out Zerker pieces for toughness gear.

No other class can provide quickness like we can, sure they can give the occasionally 10 seconds but we can give 100% quickness uptime on 7-8~ people along with alacrity even in it’s nerfed state. We also help spread fury from a rev and any other boons we gain.

We are certainly not taken because we can throw on some toughness gear and not have much dps impact. We are taken for our unique ability to be able to vastly increase party dps through constant quickness uptime on 80% of a 10 player squad. Along with that we also bring other great utility such as one of the best pulls in the game for bunching up mobs, the reflects and a life saving distortion (body blocking all the projectiles from slothasor’s shake anyone?)

Fay.2357:

Current mesmer requires an entire build with a complex and difficult rotation to maintain buffs as an absolutely essential part of any party.

This resonates with me a lot. Chrono is easily the most fulfilling class to play in high-end PvE content that I’ve tried, it’s engaging and isn’t just spamming skills as they come off CD. And when you do it right people will notice and they will also notice when you’re clueless, like when you replace a pug chrono in your friends raid and some of the first things they say to you is awful the other chrono was and how much more damage the group does with all your boon share.

Personally I love playing support, if I wanted to see big numbers I’d be playing an elementalist.

For the most part Mesmer is just support. It is a unique support, but still just support with not much else offered. PvE wise probably the worst solo. Can be survivable but damage mechanics (shatter and phantasms) are pretty terrible. PvP and WvW things are a bit better, but again one viable build that relies on moa and portal while bing a strong solo.

Compared to pre hot I think mesmer after the 6/23/15 update was in decent spot, but with hot most other classes gained major damage upgrade, while Mesmer damage did not improve much.

Mixchimmer.7230:

At least from a PvE perspective – yes, their role is mostly Support, but there’s nothing inherently wrong with that.

Exactly, I don’t see why this is all of a sudden a bad thing. Druids are quite clearly intended to be healers, with Chrono’s ability to manipulate cooldowns and double up on buffs/abilities, obviously boon-support was written all over it. :o

I think the reason it’s a perceived problem is that “support class” wasn’t really part of our pre-HoT identity. Which is actually something that affected Rangers as well.

It’s not really a bad thing in itself, just an matter of perception.

tobascodagama.2961:

I think the reason it’s a perceived problem is that “support class” wasn’t really part of our pre-HoT identity. Which is actually something that affected Rangers as well.

It’s not really a bad thing in itself, just an matter of perception.

Ranger has always had support because of its spirits. And its healing spring.

Mesmer was more complicated. It fits the definition of both support and control.
https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Team_roles#Support

• Mesmer had the second best hex removal. With only the dedicated healer(Monk) surpassing them. https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/List_of_hex_removal_skills
• But also some of the best control. https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Blackout

The issue is that Mesmer is foremost control, then support, then dps.

I hate facing Mesmers in PvP. Stealth, clones, phantasms, condis, boons, CC, ranged. Pain in the butt. I run thief and warrior.

I don’t know how they fare in other game modes.

I wouldn’t underestimate those qualities.
Playing fractals at 90+ is vastly more straight forward and quick with a competent mesmer providing boons and alacrity.

There was a saying in gw1;
“An average warrior is average
An average ele is average
An average mesmer is bad.”

They can do a lot that makes life easier when they play to their team.

Mesmers are for control and sneaky tactics.

When PvE is designed for DPS checks and outright buttonmashing then it is always going to be subpar without pumping alacrity to other classes that can actually do damage.

For WvW and PvP, there really isn’t an argument against mesmers being terrible.
For PvP mesmers can still portal, shatter, invis, apply quickness, etc. It’s just that invis causes you to lose the cap and that the amulets don’t allow for mesmers to build as offensive so all the other classes’ defensive traits stop it from spiking with power builds as easily.
For WvW mesmers can still portal, veil, shatter, invis, apply quickness,apply distortion, gravity well, copy boons, etc.

So then I think its settled.

Mesmers want some sort of build like Reaper that allows them to frontline.

Daniel Handler.4816:

So then I think its settled.

Mesmers want some sort of build like Reaper that allows them to frontline.

No, you don’t get it at all. We want a “build” that doesn’t make PvE a chore because of kitten damage.

I do have to say that since I hit 80 and geared out. My damage is subpar to my necro, druid, and my rev. But I still enjoy playing. I just had to come to the hard realization that I am there to spread boons, keep people hasted and alacrity up as much as possible.

But my damage, yeah its meh.

Newsin.1945:

I do have to say that since I hit 80 and geared out. My damage is subpar to my necro, druid, and my rev. But I still enjoy playing. I just had to come to the hard realization that I am there to spread boons, keep people hasted and alacrity up as much as possible.

But my damage, yeah its meh.

Yea, i’m likening it to a Bard class sadly. As you mentioned, fun as but just not a dps beast, which I am slowly getting used to. Actually am owning the mobs in Bloodstone pretty well which is where I thought I would struggle.
Time will tell……..lol, oh no I didn’t!

OriOri.8724:

Daniel Handler.4816:

So then I think its settled.

Mesmers want some sort of build like Reaper that allows them to frontline.

No, you don’t get it at all. We want a “build” that doesn’t make PvE a chore because of kitten damage.

por que no los dos

Mesmers can already build enough active defence and self-healing to frontline if we really, really wanted to. We don’t need more bunkering ability, we need something that turns open world content into something other than a miserable chore.

tobascodagama.2961:

Mesmers can already build enough active defence and self-healing to frontline if we really, really wanted to. We don’t need more bunkering ability, we need something that turns open world content into something other than a miserable chore.

I believe the power button comes pre-installed on your PC.

~I’m helpful :D

I’ve been playing open world stuff on my Thief and Ranger for the past few months. It’s actually possible to have fun in the open world! I swear! (Just, you know, not on Mesmer…)

tobascodagama.2961:

I’ve been playing open world stuff on my Thief and Ranger for the past few months. It’s actually possible to have fun in the open world! I swear! (Just, you know, not on Mesmer…)

Yeah just load up your white mantel portal device onto them and you’ll never know the difference!

tobascodagama.2961:

Mesmers can already build enough active defence and self-healing to frontline if we really, really wanted to. We don’t need more bunkering ability, we need something that turns open world content into something other than a miserable chore.

Frontline also implies doing damage.

Frontline reaper, guards, warriors can do much more damage than a frontline mesmer.

Its also a pve problem. The same issues mesmer has with tagging enemies , and sustaining damage, prevent it from being an adequate frontliner.

Daniel Handler.4816:

tobascodagama.2961:

Mesmers can already build enough active defence and self-healing to frontline if we really, really wanted to. We don’t need more bunkering ability, we need something that turns open world content into something other than a miserable chore.

Frontline also implies doing damage.

Frontline reaper, guards, warriors can do much more damage than a frontline mesmer.

Its also a pve problem. The same issues mesmer has with tagging enemies , and sustaining damage, prevent it from being an adequate frontliner.

Frontline is being on the frontline. Any class with a bit of sustain can frontline, they just might not be that great at it. Besides with the current boonspam meta going on most classes are “frontline” anyway. Even without huge personal damage, Mesmer can make a huge difference on frontline with their unique mechanics (giving out distortion to allies when they need it, moaing a commander, keeping the boonshare up, quickness/slow, limited stability and aegis if needed with their well. Its not like they can’t already frontline, they just can’t be the main DPS

Also most classes can frontline, because they have to just to be able to adequately buff their allies and benefit from buffs themselves. The frontline role is the same as the tank role, not the dps role (just have to be in range for dps, not on the frontline).

Pretty much every class has a solid frontline build. Thieves a bit less so, though Venomshare is still strong. Rangers…well, we have a good Druid in my WvW guild, but I wouldn’t make a habit of bringing frontline rangers.