Guild Wars 2

Hexxen.7216:

I still don’t understand this lack of condi cleans argument that is still EVERYWHERE on these forums.

iDisenchanter = removes 2 per bounce plus rips boons and is on a 16/20s CD
Null Field = removes 1 per second and on 40second CD
Manta of Resolve = 2 conditions per use with 2 uses per charge
Traited Torch = 1 per skill use both of which are on a ~21s CD thanks to the trait and one stealths you.
Arcane Thievery = takes away three condi and can take up to 3 boons.
Mendure’s Purity = condition removal on heal
Shattered Conditions = 1 conditon per illusions shattered can be used pretty much as fast as you can pump out more conditions since we have 4 shatters.
Temporal Curtin plus iWarden = condition cleansing bullets.

That seems like a lot of on demand condi cleansing to me. Sure don’t have a “cleans one condition every Xs skill” but three of our cleanses also cleans allies.

Well, for a start you cant take all of that. So youthink that we should take 3 Utilities, traits and weapons for ONE build? What about everything else, we might survive the first burst of conditions but we wont be surviving many more and taking all the Utilities, traits and weapons mean we are weak in pretty much every other respect.

Now if Shattered Conditions was changed up a bit, moved down the tree or even moved to another tree it could be great, currently its not worth 30 points into at best decent tree (depending on build) In my opinion:

Shattered Conditions: Remove 2 stacks of conditions per a Shatter (so 8 with IP) and replace them with Boons that last 10seconds.

The Boons: Regen, Aegis, Protection, Stability(?) and Might

The problem with the current Meta is just how easy and quick condition builds can burst conditions on to you Once you have cleared most/all of the first wave and likely <50% health they can easily just burst another set on you

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

The problem with the current Meta is just how easy and quick condition builds can burst conditions on to you Once you have cleared most/all of the first wave and likely <50% health they can easily just burst another set on you

I have to agree with this. The necro’s auto attack with scepter even applies conditions to you

As I have said before, it is not because we are a horrible profession. We have a lot of on demand burst, but atm we have to spec to survive. That sounds reasonable enough, but if we do run torch, then we are as slow as the necromancers and when we do spec for those condition cleansing traits, then we sacrifice dps.
Our role in tpvp is pretty well defined, but other classes just do it better atm. Not just because each profession do it better, but because they synergise so well with each other, and simply because they can survive.

What would you rather bring? A s/d thief that can rip boons of the other team, move fast, cleanse conditions in stealth and burst your opponent down in seconds. Or a mesmer that either has the burst, but can’t survive the condition spam or can survive, but is lower on dps?

I think the thief can simply fulfill that role (our role) better atm.
Again: this is competitive tpvp only.

I understand that we can’t take them all off but on my Condition Mesmer and Conditon Necro I run I don’t have any trouble taking out Guardians and Ele either which are the two that keep coming up as good at cleansing. An Ele and a Guard are not going to take all of there cleansing abilities either. Mesmer in particular isn’t weak against conditions due to lack of removal but all jobs are. Certain jobs like those two might have more condition removal built into builds that work a bit better than we would but really all jobs are simply super weak to them. Mesmer isn’t alone in this battle.

Hexxen.7216:

I understand that we can’t take them all off but on my Condition Mesmer and Conditon Necro I run I don’t have any trouble taking out Guardians and Ele either which are the two that keep coming up as good at cleansing. An Ele and a Guard are not going to take all of there cleansing abilities either. Mesmer in particular isn’t weak against conditions due to lack of removal but all jobs are. Certain jobs like those two might have more condition removal built into builds that work a bit better than we would but really all jobs are simply super weak to them. Mesmer isn’t alone in this battle.

You seem to be confusing condition offense with condition defense, try going against a Bursting Condition Necro or Engi with those traits and skills. You might survive the first burst you will most likely die to the second, if you dont you will either be very close or running the other way.

We do not have enough removal for how fast and how easy it is to apply. and having to build AROUND surviving Condition Burst means you wont be doing that much damage and its VERY unlikely against a good player you will beat them as a Mesmer

I would say this can be more easily balanced on a team-level. Classes should probably not be 100% identical in condition removal potential and damage-loss for it, rather a team as a whole should have solid condition removal coverage given a multitude of setups, and should gain something as a team-power in turn for giving up condition-cleansing potential.

Hexxen.7216:

Fenrir.5493:

I only agree on conditions our conditions and the lack of condi cleans, mesmer dont aply a lot of conditions and the main condition (confusion) is very underwelming.

Other than that warrior is still the free kill of the game.

I still don’t understand this lack of condi cleans argument that is still EVERYWHERE on these forums.

iDisenchanter = removes 2 per bounce plus rips boons and is on a 16/20s CD
Null Field = removes 1 per second and on 40second CD
Manta of Resolve = 2 conditions per use with 2 uses per charge
Traited Torch = 1 per skill use both of which are on a ~21s CD thanks to the trait and one stealths you.
Arcane Thievery = takes away three condi and can take up to 3 boons.
Mendure’s Purity = condition removal on heal
Shattered Conditions = 1 conditon per illusions shattered can be used pretty much as fast as you can pump out more conditions since we have 4 shatters.
Temporal Curtin plus iWarden = condition cleansing bullets.

That seems like a lot of on demand condi cleansing to me. Sure don’t have a “cleans one condition every Xs skill” but three of our cleanses also cleans allies.

actually if u play wvw most of your solutions arent viable at all, apart from nullfield. disenchanter dies instantly in zerg, mantra would have t be channelled all the time and u get interrupted all the time. temporal curtain and i warden same thing, acrane thievery has a very long cd and no range so doesent work most of the time and not everyone uses torch in wvw, most of us carry focus to pull and for swiftness to get around. the necro meta in wvw is becoming a real issue.

as for tpvp the necro meta has become a similar problem and there i can only carry the disenchanter with me and it does have a bad cd….

I’ve put my mesmer main aside few months ago. My Guardian, Thief, Elementalist, Necromancer all offer the group much more and are more interesting to play.

I am not happy with current state of Mesmer.

Shattered Conditions: Remove 2 stacks of conditions per a Shatter (so 8 with IP) and replace them with Boons that last 10seconds.

The Boons: Regen, Aegis, Protection, Stability(?) and Might

Well, this would actually be extremely OP, don’t you think? ^^

Iavra.8510:

Shattered Conditions: Remove 2 stacks of conditions per a Shatter (so 8 with IP) and replace them with Boons that last 10seconds.

The Boons: Regen, Aegis, Protection, Stability(?) and Might

Well, this would actually be extremely OP, don’t you think? ^^

It would make it worth getting, even if you keep it in the Vit/Healing Tree. I think it would be perfectly fine, You would be losing elsewhere just to get it so why shouldnt it be strong?

I mean its a 30point trait in a tree that isnt that strong. So you will be losing out on Shatter tree or losing things like DE BI or something that is also strong.

Going 30 in inspiration is rather common for mesmer builds so you aren’t “losing” elsewhere. It is an extremely powerful line. Also, with it being for your whole team, giving regen, aegis, prot, stability, or might on every clone shattered would be refreshing perma regen/protection/stability (you would obviously spec boon duration) with aegis about every 10 seconds or so. Do you really not see how that is OP?

I think Blimm has done a good job of showing why it’s worth getting. He even got a high end tpvp mesmer to try it out and he/she liked it.

Edit: Also AOE vigor >_>
Edit for grammar.

DuckDuckBOOM.4097:

Going 30 in inspiration is rather common for mesmer builds so you aren’t “losing” elsewhere. It is an extremely powerful line. Also, with it being for your whole team, giving regen, aegis, prot, stability, or might on every clone shattered would be refreshing perma regen/protection/stability (you would obviously spec boon duration) with aegis about every 10 seconds or so. Do you really not see how that is OP?

I think Blimm has done a good job of showing why it’s worth getting. He even got a high end tpvp mesmer to try it out and he/she liked it.

Edit: Also AOE vigor >_>
Edit for grammar.

Vit/Healing tree does not offer Might, thats the Illusion tree.

Inspiration:

Retal for Phantoms (only 5 seconds) = rubbish
Regen from Phantoms = decent
15% more Phantom damage = decent

Feedback while reviving = rubbish
Glamour recharge 20% quicker = good if you run that sort of build
Shatter for Vigor = Decent
Remove condition on Heal = Meh
phantom have 20% more health = Decent if you run Phantom build

10% faster per illusion = decent
200+ Cond damage/20% faster scepter recharge = Meh
Wardens Feedback = Good!
Glamour last longer = decent if you run that build
Heal on Mantra = meh

Shattered Conditions = COULD be good, to high in tree
small heal on shatter = never used it, depends on the heal per shattered

Where is this Stability coming from? if you mean the Mantra one, thats very meh. Like 2.5second isnt exactly stellar. Other then wardens and Shattered Conditions (if it was better/lower in tree) i dont see anything worth losing things like DE, BI or IP at the very least.

Not to forget the minors and other traits SI, BT, DD, CI, MR are all pretty solid as well and lets not forget the other traits that i dont even run. I’ll wait for some Videos currently i just dont see how it would be worth losing everything else.

You mentioned the stability and might in a suggestion that you claim to be “perfectly fine.” >.<

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Shattered Conditions: Remove 2 stacks of conditions per a Shatter (so 8 with IP) and replace them with Boons that last 10seconds.

The Boons: Regen, Aegis, Protection, Stability(?) and Might

Even without it, perma vigor, regen, and protection in an aoe with lots of aegis procs is still really good. In fact, without might, its even better with less RNG.

Your assessment of “meh” is the problem. It should be “decent if you need it in your build.” Even if half the traits suck, is your assessment trying to deny that it is a powerful line? If so, you failed pretty hard.

Who says you lose out on 20 in dueling? We have 5 trait lines that are all very tempting to go at least 20 if not 30 into. That is a lot better than most classes. Of course we “lose” something but that is good kind of “loss.”

The main problem of Inspiration actually aren’t the major traits. Going 30 points deep into a traitline to get a shatter trait while picking 3 minors which are basically useless because they focus on phantasms is…suboptimal.

That is problematic. I think the 15% dmg is still good for shatter builds as you might as well let your phants hit hard before you shatter them/ waiting to counter a condition burst.

Since they nerfed the retaliation, I sorta hope they make it 5 seconds of retaliation on all illusions. Would make the line a bit more “shatter friendly.”.

The proposed buff would make regen phants unnecessary.

DuckDuckBOOM.4097:

You mentioned the stability and might in a suggestion that you claim to be “perfectly fine.” >.<

“Stability(?)” Kinda signifies this was more of a question as to would be be to strong rather then this is what it should have and the fact i said “Random Boons” is also kind of important rather then 100% chance at getting Stability. Could even change it to 4 Boons so 25% chance of getting each Boon for a Condition stack removed.

DuckDuckBOOM.4097:

Even without it, perma vigor, regen, and protection in an aoe with lots of aegis procs is still really good. In fact, without might, its even better with less RNG.

That depends on how often you shatter, i am guessing its 5second-10second of Vigor per a shattered illusion? As for the Protection that requires 15points into Chaos – that is a different tree…

If you want to shatter you will want at a MIN 15 into Illusions, not for the might but for the Shatter recharge cool down, though the more points he better. 30 into Inspiration, 15 into Chaos that means 60 points spent – where would the last 10 points be spent?

DuckDuckBOOM.4097:

Your assessment of “meh” is the problem. It should be “decent if you need it in your build.” Even if half the traits suck, is your assessment trying to deny that it is a powerful line? If so, you failed pretty hard.

Except how many of them traits are suitable for a Shatter build? You got Vigor on Shatter. The rest arent exactly shatter good are they? No i am saying most of the traits bar a few are any good. You saying thakittens a “powerful line” for what? Most of the traits are more for Phantom builds, thus if you are a SHATTER build its not exactly that good.

DuckDuckBOOM.4097:

Who says you lose out on 20 in dueling? We have 5 trait lines that are all very tempting to go at least 20 if not 30 into. That is a lot better than most classes. Of course we “lose” something but that is good kind of “loss.”

I agree, we have loads of great traits spread all over the place but we also have to many average/rubbish traits as well. Loss of damage is good? lose of survivability good?

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Shattered Conditions: Remove 2 stacks of conditions per a Shatter (so 8 with IP) and replace them with Boons that last 10seconds.

The Boons: Regen, Aegis, Protection, Stability(?) and Might

You are the one that proposed the protection from this trait. Do I really need to repeat your post twice for you to remember what you wrote? Without stability/might: 10 base(14-18) seconds of regen OR aegis OR protection from EACH shatters in an AOE. 0/0/0/30/20 with 20 points to spare is getting you upwards of 24 clones shattered a minute with just F1/F2. RNG…. who cares about RNG when you are shattering like crazy. Even without any points in illusions you are still getting 24 clones shattered/minute if you use F1-F4. Signet of inspiration to then double all of those boons.

Between your proposed trait and staff #5, you will be giving out an average of 12 aegis procs a minute, perma AOE vigor, regen, and protection while effectively making your team immune to conditions. Traits/signet of illusions will up those numbers even more. That is OP.

RE: Inspiration and shatters. Who cares if most of the traits are for phantasms? You can still use 2 shatter traits with 30 inspiration. Glamours don’t care if you are shatter or phantasm. Focus reflection is still good. A shatter specs still benefit from phantasms hitting harder. The retaliation nerf sorta favors shatter builds. Get phantasms out for 1-2 waves of attacks then shatter them since the retaliation is gone. Regen from phants? Why bother if you implement your buff.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

DuckDuckBOOM.4097:

Who says you lose out on 20 in dueling? We have 5 trait lines that are all very tempting to go at least 20 if not 30 into. That is a lot better than most classes. Of course we “lose” something but that is good kind of “loss.”

I agree, we have loads of great traits spread all over the place but we also have to many average/rubbish traits as well. Loss of damage is good? lose of survivability good?

Taking this to two extremes, zero or 150 trait points to spend would be boring. Having 70 but only 1 viable build is no different than the first two cases. The fact that there are such diverse mesmer builds is an indication that we can throw our points in any line and have something that is mostly viable and balanced. When someone picks domination vs chaos or any of the choices we have, of course damage or survivability is lost. The fact that we can choose and those are meaningful choices are what make them a “good loss.”

DuckDuckBOOM.4097:

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Shattered Conditions: Remove 2 stacks of conditions per a Shatter (so 8 with IP) and replace them with Boons that last 10seconds.

The Boons: Regen, Aegis, Protection, Stability(?) and Might

You are the one that proposed the protection from this trait. Do I really need to repeat your post twice for you to remember what you wrote? Without stability/might: 10 base(14-18) seconds of regen OR aegis OR protection from EACH shatters in an AOE. 0/0/0/30/20 with 20 points to spare is getting you upwards of 24 clones shattered a minute with just F1/F2. RNG…. who cares about RNG when you are shattering like crazy. Even without any points in illusions you are still getting 24 clones shattered/minute if you use F1-F4. Signet of inspiration to then double all of those boons.

The last i checked, it hasnt been introduced. It was nothing more then an opinion, the trait as it is now is not worth 30points into a tree that has more Phantasm build traits then Shatter traits (Bar Vigor one)

DuckDuckBOOM.4097:

Between your proposed trait and staff #5, you will be giving out an average of 12 aegis procs a minute, perma AOE vigor, regen, and protection while effectively making your team immune to conditions. Traits/signet of illusions will up those numbers even more. That is OP.

How so? other then the Vigor none of the others are AoE, did i say on my opinion based change that the effects would effect a team? No, this change would be for YOU and only you. Sure you could tweak it, make it a bit weaker and have it for AoE, maybe cut down the conditions from 8 to 4 or something but the change i made was for YOU not a team and not for AoE.

They could even introduce a cool down on it, like plenty of traits do Maybe even have it so thakittens part of Distortion, which at Min is 46.5seconds cool down. So make it that the Trait makes Distortion remove the conditions Up to 8 conditions and convert them into boons every 46.5seconds or something.

So seeing as that has been sorted, is it still OP? I personally dont think so. How easy it is to burst conditions anyway you could remove 8 and before Mind Wreck is ready again you will have another set of conditions on you anyway.

DuckDuckBOOM.4097:

RE: Inspiration and shatters. Who cares if most of the traits are for phantasms? You can still use 2 shatter traits with 30 inspiration. Glamours don’t care if you are shatter or phantasm. Focus reflection is still good. A shatter specs still benefit from phantasms hitting harder. The retaliation nerf sorta favors shatter builds. Get phantasms out for 1-2 waves of attacks then shatter them since the retaliation is gone. Regen from phants? Why bother if you implement your buff.

I agree Wardens is good, in my opinion the ONLY good trait in the tree, though that is based on builds.

DuckDuckBOOM.4097:

Who says you lose out on 20 in dueling? We have 5 trait lines that are all very tempting to go at least 20 if not 30 into. That is a lot better than most classes. Of course we “lose” something but that is good kind of “loss.”

Taking this to two extremes, zero or 150 trait points to spend would be boring. Having 70 but only 1 viable build is no different than the first two cases. The fact that there are such diverse mesmer builds is an indication that we can throw our points in any line and have something that is mostly viable and balanced. When someone picks domination vs chaos or any of the choices we have, of course damage or survivability is lost. The fact that we can choose and those are meaningful choices are what make them a “good loss.”

2 extremes? i didnt mention anything about having 150 points to spend, of course we have to balance it out currently the trees are bit of a mess. Having to take points into a tree you dont want for a trait that is VERY good or very important for the build.

Even with these “choices” the fact that we are so weak in this current Meta even with out “best” builds (Shatter/Phantom) just shows some of the issues with the tree system we have.

You mention a meta… then you mention “best builds.” This is not a problem with our traits. It’s a problem with your understanding of “metas.”

20/20/0/0/30 was a best build of yesterday. It was the only build that high end mesmers ran with little to no variation. If that is your only build choice, then it isn’t any different from a game designed for 0 traits or everyone going 30/30/30/30/30. The end result is that there is no meaningful choice.

Metas give a semblance of choice. Old “best builds” fall out of play while new ones take there place. Meta-counter builds develop and the scene evolves. Ideally, as the game matures, the meta will become complex enough that all/most of our “best builds” are viable in the same meta. GW2 is rather young though and hasn’t reached that point.

Right now, blimm is doing a good job of trying to figure out the mesmer’s new best build. Specifically, the best anti-condi support/dps mesmer. Overall, I would say he is doing a good job. This is while using the trait that you deem too weak. It seems to be working well for him so I have to disagree with your opinion. It’s fine.

RE: your adjustment to the proposed trait. You didn’t state that it was AOE or not but the trait is AOE. Kind of a safe assumption. The current trait is a steady source of condition removal for a team which is what we need in this meta. Internal CDs would be a huge nerf to the steadiness. Gaining RNG protection/aegis on distortion is useless.

Meta as in how Condition heavy it is, How many Mesmers are in the top PvP teams?. I am sorry but no our “best” builds are not. The fact Mesmers are hardly in any of the TPvP teams shows that.

We currently offer very little outside Portal that another class cant – IoL ranger Spirit can do it better, high damage? Thief, movement between combat? Thief/Engi can be quite fast as well.

Yeah that is part of the problem in my opinion – we are to focused on groups that we suffer elsewhere – take our utilities and Elites we have ONE offensive (damaging) Utility and Moa could be counted as a self Elite, everything else is pretty much group play orientated. Sure we have a few others like Stuns, Stability and such but thats about it.

How so? Distortion lasts like 3-4seconds, the Boons would be for 10seconds so thats not really wasted then, Aegis wouldn’t proc during Distortion. I agree That blimm is doing some good work to try and find some new builds. Though i will wait until it has been tried before stating things like "pecifically, the best anti-condi support/dps mesmer. " we dont know exactly what the build will play like, what kind of dps it has or anything else. The problem is how would it fair 1 Vs 1 or 1 Vs x not every fight is a fair group fight.

selan.8354:

Hexxen.7216:

Fenrir.5493:

I only agree on conditions our conditions and the lack of condi cleans, mesmer dont aply a lot of conditions and the main condition (confusion) is very underwelming.

Other than that warrior is still the free kill of the game.

I still don’t understand this lack of condi cleans argument that is still EVERYWHERE on these forums.

iDisenchanter = removes 2 per bounce plus rips boons and is on a 16/20s CD
Null Field = removes 1 per second and on 40second CD
Manta of Resolve = 2 conditions per use with 2 uses per charge
Traited Torch = 1 per skill use both of which are on a ~21s CD thanks to the trait and one stealths you.
Arcane Thievery = takes away three condi and can take up to 3 boons.
Mendure’s Purity = condition removal on heal
Shattered Conditions = 1 conditon per illusions shattered can be used pretty much as fast as you can pump out more conditions since we have 4 shatters.
Temporal Curtin plus iWarden = condition cleansing bullets.

That seems like a lot of on demand condi cleansing to me. Sure don’t have a “cleans one condition every Xs skill” but three of our cleanses also cleans allies.

actually if u play wvw most of your solutions arent viable at all, apart from nullfield. disenchanter dies instantly in zerg, mantra would have t be channelled all the time and u get interrupted all the time. temporal curtain and i warden same thing, acrane thievery has a very long cd and no range so doesent work most of the time and not everyone uses torch in wvw, most of us carry focus to pull and for swiftness to get around. the necro meta in wvw is becoming a real issue.

as for tpvp the necro meta has become a similar problem and there i can only carry the disenchanter with me and it does have a bad cd….

Selena you know personally that I play WvW but don’t run in Zergs because of my lag issue. ^^ Also, in Zergs null field is amazing but other than that really it is a zerg fight trying to apply skill is rather pointless.

After facing a team of 3 Necros, a Trap Ranger and a Bunker Guardian on Mesmer, Necro, Guadian, Engineer and Ranger I can safely say that no class has enough condition removal to deal with that kind of team. It was ridiculously strong.

Mesmer is mathematically the weakest profession and requires its opponent to be a complete idiot. End of thread.

Hexxen.7216:

After facing a team of 3 Necros, a Trap Ranger and a Bunker Guardian on Mesmer, Necro, Guadian, Engineer and Ranger I can safely say that no class has enough condition removal to deal with that kind of team. It was ridiculously strong.

yep i agree. i’ve seen the necro meta in spvp and wvw and before the latest 2 patches, i felt in spvp that i was still sorta able to compete, but atm i feel a little up with the current cond. meta.

in wvw a necro group will burn through your forces like crazy. constant interrupts, fear and very high poison, burn and bleed = death. nullfield works alright, but im trying to use more cond removals also lemongrass soup helps a little. love the disenchanter though, but it needs a little tweak.