Guild Wars 2

Hi guys,

Nowadays everything just about meta builds.
What if a mesmer for example not a meta build, but something what is rather unusal in normal groups but it can survive and play along well with others?
That kind of character would deserve a kick from other players, just because not following the trend?

I would like to hear your opinion my fellow mesmer brothers and sisters.

Let’s get creative!

Or… let’s… agree never to get creative again…

Not all non-meta builds are created equal. There’s non-meta insofar as ’I’m gonna use greatsword + sw/sw because I like that set, but still go zerker and phantasm focused’. There’s also non-meta insofar as ’I’m going to camp scepter/torch condie the entire time’. The first, while distinctly less effective than the meta build, still will at least contribute to the party. The second would not only get kicked from any party I was making, but also probably added to a list of ‘never party with ever again’.

There’s a good reason that the meta builds are meta. That reason is that they’re the most effective builds for the purpose of PvE/dungeons. Ultimately when someone is on my team, I couldn’t care less how unusual or “creative” their build is. The only thing I care about is whether or not they’re contributing to my party. If the only thing you can do is survive and “play along well with others”, then you may as well be off sniffing glue in a corner for all that you’re contributing to actually doing the dungeon.

Well, what I am talking about is not just about survivability.
Sacrificing some dps for better survivability and for some tricks this what I am talking about.
Ok, to understand I will write down what I mean.
Using sword/ pistol and a staff.
Still having zeker set with scholar runes and still using domination duelist and illusions.
Still dish out good damage with phantasms and sword melee, but when time comes be able to go defensive and teleport around the battlefield.
While I understand staff is not for power builds and goes better with condi damage, still gives a lot of boons and increases mobility a lot for me.
while I still know how to do the dungeon/ fractal etc. and contributing to the party in dps I am there to res and usually I am the last to go down.

Is this kind of gameplay will be rewarded with an “instant kick” or is this still acceptable by meta people?

Fay: There is a good reason why meta builds are meta. Most people need a build and they need something to grab. If everyone following the almighty meta, all the mesmers are the same. All the warriors, all the guardians etc. Might they are the most effective builds but I am telling you something. I have seen a year ago a hunter soloing Lupi, cos everyone was dead, and that person was so skilled, so good, he did not failed even once.

Yet the party at the beginning did not want to take him, because hunters are “not good” and they cannot contribute in the same way as for example a guardian.
That was before the reflect walls and feedback…
Numbers are not everything.

Metaton.2308:

Well, what I am talking about is not just about survivability.
Sacrificing some dps for better survivability and for some tricks this what I am talking about.
Ok, to understand I will write down what I mean.
Using sword/ pistol and a staff.
Still having zeker set with scholar runes and still using domination duelist and illusions.
Still dish out good damage with phantasms and sword melee, but when time comes be able to go defensive and teleport around the battlefield.
While I understand staff is not for power builds and goes better with condi damage, still gives a lot of boons and increases mobility a lot for me.
while I still know how to do the dungeon/ fractal etc. and contributing to the party in dps I am there to res and usually I am the last to go down.

Is this kind of gameplay will be rewarded with an “instant kick” or is this still acceptable by meta people?

Fay: There is a good reason why meta builds are meta. Most people need a build and they need something to grab. If everyone following the almighty meta, all the mesmers are the same. All the warriors, all the guardians etc. Might they are the most effective builds but I am telling you something. I have seen a year ago a hunter soloing Lupi, cos everyone was dead, and that person was so skilled, so good, he did not failed even once.

Yet the party at the beginning did not want to take him, because hunters are “not good” and they cannot contribute in the same way as for example a guardian.
That was before the reflect walls and feedback…
Numbers are not everything.

What you just described is the reason their is meta builds. Something the casual gamer can be successful with. The person who takes the time to understand all the games details can afford to have some wiggle room and with sheer skill still perform.

denis.9487:

Metaton.2308:

Well, what I am talking about is not just about survivability.
Sacrificing some dps for better survivability and for some tricks this what I am talking about.
Ok, to understand I will write down what I mean.
Using sword/ pistol and a staff.
Still having zeker set with scholar runes and still using domination duelist and illusions.
Still dish out good damage with phantasms and sword melee, but when time comes be able to go defensive and teleport around the battlefield.
While I understand staff is not for power builds and goes better with condi damage, still gives a lot of boons and increases mobility a lot for me.
while I still know how to do the dungeon/ fractal etc. and contributing to the party in dps I am there to res and usually I am the last to go down.

Is this kind of gameplay will be rewarded with an “instant kick” or is this still acceptable by meta people?

Fay: There is a good reason why meta builds are meta. Most people need a build and they need something to grab. If everyone following the almighty meta, all the mesmers are the same. All the warriors, all the guardians etc. Might they are the most effective builds but I am telling you something. I have seen a year ago a hunter soloing Lupi, cos everyone was dead, and that person was so skilled, so good, he did not failed even once.

Yet the party at the beginning did not want to take him, because hunters are “not good” and they cannot contribute in the same way as for example a guardian.
That was before the reflect walls and feedback…
Numbers are not everything.

What you just described is the reason their is meta builds. Something the casual gamer can be successful with. The person who takes the time to understand all the games details can afford to have some wiggle room and with sheer skill still perform.

Well, meta builds aren’t always the easiest builds to play. Pure zerker armor makes you squishy, and that’s not the most forgiving style to play with.

At any rate…

Metaton.2308:

Using sword/ pistol and a staff.
Still having zeker set with scholar runes and still using domination duelist and illusions.
Still dish out good damage with phantasms and sword melee, but when time comes be able to go defensive and teleport around the battlefield.

This would fall into the ‘not really the best choice, but not kick-worthy either’ category. The question of course is why do you need to be teleporting around the battlefield? This is PvE, walking works just about as well.

Your anecdote about ranger is pretty useless though. Soloing lupicus has less than nothing to do with how useful a particular class is in a dungeon, and everything to do with whether or not you know how to dodge. Regardless, intelligent rangers have been accepted in meta groups for a long time now. They do decent damage and bring spotter and frost spirit to significantly boost everyone else. Bearbows, on the other hand, still deserve an instant kick for being completely useless.

Ultimately, you’re completely wrong. Numbers are everything, once you get past controllable variables like player skill. Obviously, an incredibly skilled ranger will be better to have than an elementalist that just started the class yesterday, but using that as an example to say that rangers are just as good as elementalists is pure lunacy.

I only run creative builds. And it’s fun. And it’s possible to play it very well. But you will have a difficult time fighting against most meta builds, even if you’re a better play than they are.

I ran a really awesome build during the last beta event. Of course, I got whispers telling me that my build sucks. It’s funny how society stresses individuality but really what people want is conformity, and ostracize you for not doing the norm.

Have fun. Use that creative build. Expect to have a hard time. Maybe in a future build your build will be the new meta. Who knows. Just have fun.

(only join groups with people who are chill for the best experience)

This would fall into the ‘not really the best choice, but not kick-worthy either’ category. The question of course is why do you need to be teleporting around the battlefield? This is PvE, walking works just about as well.

Reason: Teleport always gets you out of hot situations quickly when you ran out of dodges, or want to res an ally before he/she dies. Also comes handy at Mai when cannons unleashed. Also looks cool, but this is not important at the moment.
With the staff there is an extra one.

Basically I am concentrating damage when go melee with sword, and then teleport back with the staff when the situation is out of control, then put down the field, get maybe a shield, then switch back to swords, summon duelist, blind the enemy start fighting melee again. Also I have blink ready.
I found this very useful as I can go anywhere on the battlefield any time, do damage and get out quickly too.
If it is not that bad, I still can just stick to the sword and stay there melee range.
I am using mantra of resolve which still gives extra damage if I activate it. (trait)

The only thing which is really sucks is ranged. But if I need to face with a boss which need ranged, there is a GS in my bag, OOC I can switch anytime.
Is this that bad?

Your anecdote about ranger is pretty useless though. Soloing lupicus has less than nothing to do with how useful a particular class is in a dungeon, and everything to do with whether or not you know how to dodge. Regardless, intelligent rangers have been accepted in meta groups for a long time now. They do decent damage and bring spotter and frost spirit to significantly boost everyone else. Bearbows, on the other hand, still deserve an instant kick for being completely useless.

Ultimately, you’re completely wrong. Numbers are everything, once you get past controllable variables like player skill. Obviously, an incredibly skilled ranger will be better to have than an elementalist that just started the class yesterday, but using that as an example to say that rangers are just as good as elementalists is pure lunacy.

Ok, I realized what I said is not ok, as if everybody equally skilled meta wins. Yes, you right.

aaaaand where is the fun with these builds?
If I will meet a mesmer I will know he will have exactly the same skill/weaponset traits like me. I would like to stay at the borderline where you still doing good, but you can be a bit “unique and unusal”

Is +3-5% damage will make a huge difference?

Hot Boy.7138:

I only run creative builds. And it’s fun. And it’s possible to play it very well. But you will have a difficult time fighting against most meta builds, even if you’re a better play than they are.

I ran a really awesome build during the last beta event. Of course, I got whispers telling me that my build sucks. It’s funny how society stresses individuality but really what people want is conformity, and ostracize you for not doing the norm.

Have fun. Use that creative build. Expect to have a hard time. Maybe in a future build your build will be the new meta. Who knows. Just have fun.

(only join groups with people who are chill for the best experience)

Thanks. I think this is what brings us, humans forward. Dare to experiment. The first one who invented the Meta build was experimented with it too. This is how others can have it now.

Metaton.2308:

Hi guys,

Nowadays everything just about meta builds.
What if a mesmer for example not a meta build, but something what is rather unusal in normal groups but it can survive and play along well with others?
That kind of character would deserve a kick from other players, just because not following the trend?

I would like to hear your opinion my fellow mesmer brothers and sisters.

Depends on your audience. As with every mmo 90% of players will have no idea about the meta and everyone talking on forums fails to realise it.

Metaton.2308:

Hot Boy.7138:

I only run creative builds. And it’s fun. And it’s possible to play it very well. But you will have a difficult time fighting against most meta builds, even if you’re a better play than they are.

I ran a really awesome build during the last beta event. Of course, I got whispers telling me that my build sucks. It’s funny how society stresses individuality but really what people want is conformity, and ostracize you for not doing the norm.

Have fun. Use that creative build. Expect to have a hard time. Maybe in a future build your build will be the new meta. Who knows. Just have fun.

(only join groups with people who are chill for the best experience)

Thanks. I think this is what brings us, humans forward. Dare to experiment. The first one who invented the Meta build was experimented with it too. This is how others can have it now.

While true, just make sure to not stagnate on your build just because it’s your build. If it’s fun, have fun. If it’s not optional (it’s not) don’t try to argue that is optimal.

If you do better than a scrub that blindly follows the meta, it’s not your build that’s doing this.

I think the easy answer is do it if your party is ok with it (friends or warned PUG).

This being said, I think there is not so much place to be creative in current PvE. HoT will probably change that. The reason is that most mechanics are either redundant (defensive mechanics) or negated by the current design (confusion/torment, interrupts, etc…).

I think the best place to play with builds is PvP. There is still a meta there, but it is meant for coordinated groups. If you just PUG PvP, you can (and often will) actually be more successful with non-meta builds. For example, I have been playing bunker/support mesmer build in PvP, something you barely even hear of, and I found it to be the most efficient in PUGs. This is mostly because everyone just forget about the concept of keeping points; everyone tend to go full offensive so by going very defensive and bunker a point + support heavily my team, I offset that quite a bit.

I would not listen to much being said – meta is not needed unless you are doing speed runs or playing with jerks, most builds will do just fine and if not change your style or build as needed – have fun and enjoy the game.

I wouldn’t kick someone unless what they were playing caused a run or match to be nonviable or take far to long. Otherwise whats the point of doing it. If I’m only in it for gold there are other ways to get gold.

Meta is creative. Somebody actually took some thought to come up with an optimal build, it didn’t just happen by magic. People were creative enough to experiment with synergies.

i dont know about meta.
i played a carrion guard long before the meta. always ppl told me even on forum that it suck. i tried to explain why its not and the most and same reason was that guard has 1 condition so its easy to cleanse it.
now suddenly anet “nerf”/“buff” the conditions and burns and a top player test it in the ESL and BOOM everyone runs it.
so sometimes the community is act like a sheep. the follow the top players not the meta.
another example signet cele necro. or PU power mesmer. before the meta if you use pu you were a scrub but now because you have ip and good dmg so why not to use pu than if you dont use pu you are scrub.

messiah.1908:

i dont know about meta.
i played a carrion guard long before the meta. always ppl told me even on forum that it suck. i tried to explain why its not and the most and same reason was that guard has 1 condition so its easy to cleanse it.
now suddenly anet “nerf”/“buff” the conditions and burns and a top player test it in the ESL and BOOM everyone runs it.
so sometimes the community is act like a sheep. the follow the top players not the meta.
another example signet cele necro. or PU power mesmer. before the meta if you use pu you were a scrub but now because you have ip and good dmg so why not to use pu than if you dont use pu you are scrub.

This is ridiculous. Yeah, before anet buffed conditions and burning, carrion guard was absolute garbage. After they buffed the conditions and burning, carrion guard became an offensive powerhouse. Using carrion guard before the condition buff doesn’t make you some sort of visionary, it just makes you bad…

Fay.2357:

messiah.1908:

i dont know about meta.
i played a carrion guard long before the meta. always ppl told me even on forum that it suck. i tried to explain why its not and the most and same reason was that guard has 1 condition so its easy to cleanse it.
now suddenly anet “nerf”/“buff” the conditions and burns and a top player test it in the ESL and BOOM everyone runs it.
so sometimes the community is act like a sheep. the follow the top players not the meta.
another example signet cele necro. or PU power mesmer. before the meta if you use pu you were a scrub but now because you have ip and good dmg so why not to use pu than if you dont use pu you are scrub.

This is ridiculous. Yeah, before anet buffed conditions and burning, carrion guard was absolute garbage. After they buffed the conditions and burning, carrion guard became an offensive powerhouse. Using carrion guard before the condition buff doesn’t make you some sort of visionary, it just makes you bad…

sry to say on the guard they buff the stack *3 and nerf burning dmg to 15%. before the patch i could do 5 stacks of burning and do some 2.5k dps which equal to 9 stacks after the patch. so basically carrion guard didnt change much rather the ele, engi who now can do more celestial dmg. and anet didnt buff the conditions on scale which matter on pvp. you cant see much above 25 bleed, poison, burning stacks.
what has change is the fact you will see 2 carrion guards and ele running together. together it makes a difference. but if before the patch 2 guards trying it it would have almost the same impact.

maybe i am bad but ppl who dont try new things and wait for elite players to play those builds….

messiah.1908:

sry to say on the guard they buff the stack *3 and nerf burning dmg to 15%. before the patch i could do 5 stacks of burning and do some 2.5k dps which equal to 9 stacks after the patch.

This is a flat out lie. You could do 5 stacks of burning before the patch? I’m curious as to how you managed that, since burning stacked in duration, not intensity.

Let me tell you how it actually was instead of this interesting revisionist history. Condie guard maxed out around 1000-1100 per tick of burning. They could have pretty solid uptime on it without cleansing being considered, but the maximum dps would be 1k-1.1k, full stop.

On the other hand, condie guard can now easily burst high enough stacks of burning to tick for 2.5k or higher.

As you can easily see, condie guard dps was buffed by a factor of 2.5 or more in terms of their maximum damage output.

messiah.1908:

so basically carrion guard didnt change much

I think it’s rather obvious that this is false.

Again, you seem to be just a little bit fuzzy on your history. Let me just make this real clear so you don’t get confused again. Poison and burning stacked duration. Confusion, torment, and bleeding stacked intensity up to 25.

Dungeons are so trivial in this game that it really doesn’t matter as long as you’re with a mostly competent group that are like-minded.

However, if you’re with a group that expects efficiency and meta template use, then it would be kind of rude to not play along.

Fay.2357:

messiah.1908:

sry to say on the guard they buff the stack *3 and nerf burning dmg to 15%. before the patch i could do 5 stacks of burning and do some 2.5k dps which equal to 9 stacks after the patch.

This is a flat out lie. You could do 5 stacks of burning before the patch? I’m curious as to how you managed that, since burning stacked in duration, not intensity.

Let me tell you how it actually was instead of this interesting revisionist history. Condie guard maxed out around 1000-1100 per tick of burning. They could have pretty solid uptime on it without cleansing being considered, but the maximum dps would be 1k-1.1k, full stop.

On the other hand, condie guard can now easily burst high enough stacks of burning to tick for 2.5k or higher.

As you can easily see, condie guard dps was buffed by a factor of 2.5 or more in terms of their maximum damage output.

messiah.1908:

so basically carrion guard didnt change much

I think it’s rather obvious that this is false.

Again, you seem to be just a little bit fuzzy on your history. Let me just make this real clear so you don’t get confused again. Poison and burning stacked duration. Confusion, torment, and bleeding stacked intensity up to 25.

you right
i meant by duration but the total dmg almost is the same (if you play right). i took some bleed and poison sigils so i got some 1.6k dps. i compare it to the actual fights not the theoretical.
usually guards on team fight burst me with 3-5 stacks of burning which is equal to 1.5-1.8k dps. this is why i said hardly change. but take 2 guards or 1 dd ele and then is become significant with 10 burning stacks if they burst you.

Really have to judge from the actual gameplay.

Sometimes it is just obvious the person is not contributing, e.g. mesmer camping scepter or staff.

But even there, as long as the party is doing okay and the person is not doing detrimental contributions. I won’t want to kick. If the party is full of that kinda of ‘creative’ builds. I will just leave myself.

If you really know a profession and you sit down to create a build that plays to the strengths of that profession then you will end up with something very close to the almighty “meta”.

Metaton.2308:

Hi guys,

Nowadays everything just about meta builds.
What if a mesmer for example not a meta build, but something what is rather unusal in normal groups but it can survive and play along well with others?
That kind of character would deserve a kick from other players, just because not following the trend?

I would like to hear your opinion my fellow mesmer brothers and sisters.

Starting with meta as starter / noob builds is a good way to go, then differentiate from there.

For example, I ran the standard Rabid / PU / Dueling / Condi shatter for starters in SPVP. Nowadays I run Carrion / PU / Inspiration / Chaos / Illusions condi bunker which is freagin awesome and I dont have most issues that meta builds have, such as dealing with DD / Cele eles.

In WvW I used to run your standard sword + focus + veil (or portal or both) power based set-up. Nowadays I run staff, scepter, torch + mixed set of gear varying from dire to carrion to sinister and with all different runes, depending on my mood and I love it. I’m never going back to being a veilbot / portalbot, would rather quit the game entirely 1st.

I quit my mesmer almost entirely in PVE except Silverwastes farming, because so sick and tired of power builds for3+ years and condi mes sucks in dungeons and fractals.

The meta evolves over time but it can also be incredibly blind when it comes to acknowledging entirely valid alternatives.

The best rule is play what you find fun. If you enjoy staff and don’t particularly enjoy greatsword then run staff, you’ll most likely play better with a weapon that you enjoy than with one you don’t. Most of the meta stuff is picked around best case scenarios with the idea that if you find yourself in a situation that isn’t the best case scenario then you’re doing something wrong, but this kind of designing in a vacuum is kind of short sighted in my opinion.

Meta builds are only as good as the players using them. I run a non-meta (or at least I assume so since I’ve yet to fight anyone with the same spec) hybrid and I absolutely love coming across the standard issue power shatter in WvW if for no other reason than how easy they are to kill.

While Pyro has a point, I don’t judge anyone by what they run but how effective they are with it. Doesn’t matter how strong your glassy build is if you are all thumbs with it. Any meta build is really mostly a potful of soil out of which you can grow what you work best with and what you enjoy.

msalakka.4653:

Meta builds are only as good as the players using them. I run a non-meta (or at least I assume so since I’ve yet to fight anyone with the same spec) hybrid and I absolutely love coming across the standard issue power shatter in WvW if for no other reason than how easy they are to kill.

While Pyro has a point, I don’t judge anyone by what they run but how effective they are with it. Doesn’t matter how strong your glassy build is if you are all thumbs with it. Any meta build is really mostly a potful of soil out of which you can grow what you work best with and what you enjoy.

This is certainly true. I’ve kicked people running meta builds that didn’t do anything other than sample the dirt for the majority of a couple of fights. However, regardless of the skill behind the keyboard, some builds simply are going to have a maximum potential that’s still bad, and that’s the type of thing I tend to kick.