Guild Wars 2

I’ve seen crazy suggestions for nerfing this ability, and frankly, I think its unwarranted (Clickbait title 101), but if it is really necessary, I believe that instead of changing the duration, cooldown, or other whatnots, why not add a sixth ability, similar to other transforms, which allow one to break out of the form. Chuck it on with a 2.5 second rooted cast time etc, and it may help people to peel for allies who have been Moa’d in PVP teamfights.

Just my 2 cents.

Personally I just think, if it is possible on technical level, to tie the duration of moa up to the number of phantasm or illusion at the end of the cast. It could be something like this: one phantasm/illusion of the caster=3 seconds of moa, 2=6 seconds and three= 9 seconds. No illusion/phantasm on the field= no moa transformation

flog.3485:

Personally I just think, if it is possible on technical level, to tie the duration of moa up to the number of phantasm or illusion at the end of the cast. It could be something like this: one phantasm/illusion of the caster=3 seconds of moa, 2=6 seconds and three= 9 seconds. No illusion/phantasm on the field= no moa transformation

I was ok until you said no illusions no Moa. If youre going to tie it to illusions you might as well treat it like a shatter. I mean, even signet of the ether gives regen for having no illusions out and then scales up from there’s.
But I don’t think Moa is the problem here either. It’s blockable, you’re in a team match so your team should be pulling to help you etc. split balance between PvE and PvP so that you can balance CS for Pvp without messing up PvE and you’re golden. Then Anet can go further and work out the rest of the kinks because seriously, we should have tourney ready power, condi, support, and hybrid builds for most of not all classes Mesmer especially without having to have portal. But we don’t, we only have one build. Moa is a tiny fish in a big pond filled with a couple huge kitten fish that everyone is overlooking because they are too focused on the little fish.

@Jace al Thor yeah you are right I overlook on the numbers: maybe a moa transformation of 2.5 seconds base and +2.5 seconds added for each illusion present on the field at the end of cast?…But at the end of the day, +1 suggestion to just split balance for pve/pvp

Still a bad suggestion. That would merely add Moa to the long list of useless Mesmer utilities. It would be badly outperformed by both TW and GW.

Moa has been a signature ability of the Mesmer from day 1, and almost no one was using it even post HoT & CS for many weeks, until Power Mesmer was nerfed literally into near extinction. Suddenly everyone is using Moa again for the simple reason that —-even though it is hugely unreliable and on a very long CD-- it does bring something meaningful to a team fight when it does land.

Personally, I think if we would have seen a Moa nerf it would have been done with the recent patch. It would require huge improvements to other Mesmer builds to ensure you’re not nerfing Mesmers out of the meta entirely. We have one viable team build at the moment, and Moa is no small part of what makes it viable. By the looks of that patch, they’re not really out to destroy builds or make new ones viable, and thus I think they will not nerf Moa. (At least not significantly.)

So as Mesmers have said since the very beginning, get over it, that’s Moa…always been there and it’s always been strong when it does land. QQ more, L2P, tyvm, kk thx bai!

I proposed a solution only because I am scared of seeing Anet nerfing it hard in the next patch due to the amount of complaints in pvp forum. I really don’t QQ over it, deep down I am fine with the skill as it is: like Jace al Thor, they are counters to it, and if I ever get frustrated because of moa in pvp, then I will simply blame my personal skill or blame others ^^

Moa is fine.. in fact it needs a buff.

why is it ok to double moa (up to two people) for 6 seconds each? or whatever the duration is.

I thought it would be a good solution because people complained how long the duration of moa is: the fact is we have a good sustain with the shield, with illusionary persona and with the signet. In the end, it feels a bit dumb (to me) to benefit from these advantages and then be able to double-cast a moa, without worrying too much about the number of illusions up, for such a duration. Edit: I do think these changes should only apply to the chronomancer line, if it is possible on a technical level

mistsim.2748:

why is it ok to double moa (up to two people) for 6 seconds each? or whatever the duration is.

Considering how much you actually lose doing double Moa to separate players, by that time and if you can do that the fight has already been decided.

I have never had any problem with Moa since the launch of the game using any class.

As many people have mentioned you can LOS,Block,Dodge,Blind, etc it.

If you are ever get hit, you can use 5, I will emphasize this point Most people I see when Moa’ed hit 5 Immediately, 5 is an EVADE, you have to time to use it when the CC or burst comes, not just mindlessly use it because of a panic attack.

Another thing, when someone or you get Moa’ed, your team has to peel for you via, heals, another mes can port you out, timing rebound, share distortion, sanctuary, etc. This is the big difference in solo q as no one will help you out.

I would also say yes CS is very strong but moa is FINE its been here since the start of the game, and people still can’t think of better ways to deal with it?

Wow.

Frankly, if I were part of ANet or the balance team (I’m neither, and for good reason) and I thought that Moa needed tuning, my first thought would be to see if I could get someone to add a reasonable Moa heal skill, maybe including a condi cleanse with the heal. I could be way off base, but that would be my first thought.

That being said, I agree with the majority of the responses here: SoH is a powerful skill with significant trade-offs (Elite, huge CD, easily blocked/dodged/invulned/anything else) and is probably fine. If I have any concerns, it’s how the current viability of Mesmer rests more heavily than ever on two skills (portal/moa).

AtomsOrSystems.9420:

Frankly, if I were part of ANet or the balance team (I’m neither, and for good reason) and I thought that Moa needed tuning, my first thought would be to see if I could get someone to add a reasonable Moa heal skill, maybe including a condi cleanse with the heal. I could be way off base, but that would be my first thought.

That being said, I agree with the majority of the responses here: SoH is a powerful skill with significant trade-offs (Elite, huge CD, easily blocked/dodged/invulned/anything else) and is probably fine. If I have any concerns, it’s how the current viability of Mesmer rests more heavily than ever on two skills (portal/moa).

If I was the dev in question I’d keep 5 as the evade/dash, but change 1-4 to the chicken dance. That way all the scrubs who qq over Moa can just stand there and hit any of those buttons, stand there dancing, and die.

They were defeated well before the signet was cast. Well before the match even started. Well before they even logged in XD

Ross Biddle.2367:

AtomsOrSystems.9420:

Frankly, if I were part of ANet or the balance team (I’m neither, and for good reason) and I thought that Moa needed tuning, my first thought would be to see if I could get someone to add a reasonable Moa heal skill, maybe including a condi cleanse with the heal. I could be way off base, but that would be my first thought.

That being said, I agree with the majority of the responses here: SoH is a powerful skill with significant trade-offs (Elite, huge CD, easily blocked/dodged/invulned/anything else) and is probably fine. If I have any concerns, it’s how the current viability of Mesmer rests more heavily than ever on two skills (portal/moa).

If I was the dev in question I’d keep 5 as the evade/dash, but change 1-4 to the chicken dance. That way all the scrubs who qq over Moa can just stand there and hit any of those buttons, stand there dancing, and die.

They were defeated well before the signet was cast. Well before the match even started. Well before they even logged in XD

Ross I don’t know whose comments I find more entertaining, yours or Pyros. I look forward to reading both whenever I see them.

And I was PvP’ing earlier on my S/S Staff power shatter Mesmer and got Moa’ed GASP
I was fighting on my home point against a condi mesmer( go figure) and it wasn’t going his way so he Moa’ed me and guess what? I dodged and used the 5 skill to avoid his burst and then killed him! It was such a miracle! I don’t think anyone will be able to do something like that again! /s
This same Mesmer was moa’ing my teammates as well, keep in mind this was all PuGs too, and each time somehow we managed to win the match quite handily against this OP menace.

I’d rather see a lower cd and a nice cast time so one can react like you can against gravity well.

Xyonon.3987:

I’d rather see a lower cd and a nice cast time so one can react like you can against gravity well.

Only if they then cut the CD in half or more. If you make it too easy to avoid, then clearly the CD is ridiculously long. It’s already an unreliable tool in most cases, as in 1v1 it’s already pretty easy to see it coming, and in group fights you have so much random stuff denying it that it’s barely…ever so barely…viable in the current meta.

How can I say that? Almost no one was using it even post HoT/CS before Mesmers were nerfed so hard they were basically forced to start using it regardless of its unreliability and long CD. It’s always been a potential fight changer, and has had the CS synergy for many months now, but was only recently “re-discovered” for the current meta.

I’m no negative Nancy when saying that even a relatively minor nerf to Moa will most likely result in it going back to being underused just as it was for years before the current meta. (If for no other reason than the fact that both GW and TW are also pretty strong Elites, but are far more reliable than Moa.) The main reason why Mesmers are now running Moa is that it provides us —and our teams-- a strong (albeit unreliable) counter to various clearly OPd post HoT Elite professions that for some unknown reason Anet won’t nerf down to earth.

Also, it is CS that makes Moa viable in the first place! The CD is otherwise way too long for it’s lacking reliability, which is proven by the fact that prior to CS/HoT it was a very underused Elite compared to even MI. (Does anyone even use that anymore? Oh how times a change!)

Look we were already hit harder by a post HoT/Elites nerf-bat then anyone else, and with both Alacrity and Wells being pretty much a non-factor in PvP anymore, the really only nice thing left in our “Elite” Chronomancy is CS, passive speed, and Chronophants.

When Chronomancy was first revealed and later patched in, I was the first to say that CS needed to exclude our Elites. It’s clearly a balance issue. The problem is, that in good ole Anet fashion they have nerfed literally everything else in Chronomancy that was meaningful, so if they now nerf CS the Chrono line is for all practical purposes a dead trait line.

Unlike almost everyone else’s Elites, ours provides no DPS boosts (aka power creep), aside from using CS to double-up on shatters. Which as the current meta proves, mostly is useful for Condition builds. (Which promptly resulted in the MtD gutting, that was again a misguided/misplaced nerf, because if CS hadn’t existed, the MtD nerf would never have happened. Ring around the rosey, pocket full of bad traits/utilities.)

Bah, nvm….

I vote remove Moa and replace it with consume plasma.

Levetty.1279:

I vote remove Moa and replace it with consume plasma.

Can we have it on a 15 second CD too?

My suggestion would be to buff the Moa form. Add a stunbreaker and 5s superspeed to moa 5 and reduce cast time of the shriek.

Another suggestion for moa: tie the duration of the first moa transformation with CS up to the number illusion that were shattered for it. 2 seconds per illusion.

flog.3485:

Another suggestion for moa: tie the duration of the first moa transformation with CS up to the number illusion that were shattered for it. 2 seconds per illusion.

All bad suggestions.

@phokus thx for sharing…..Would you at least care elaborating a bit more, please?

Rather than making Signet of Humility less effective, I’dd rather see it more telegraphed. I personally think a 1,5 or 1,25s cast time would be more appropiate. But more importantly it should be more visible. There are already some signet skills in game, that when you activate it, the signet is shown above the head (Signet of domination if I’m not mistaking). This would already help alot, and still keep it worthwhile to use.

PS. Allow us to jump in moa form…I can’t remember how many times I died somewhere because I couldn’t jump…

Jace al Thor.6745:

Ross Biddle.2367:

AtomsOrSystems.9420:

Frankly, if I were part of ANet or the balance team (I’m neither, and for good reason) and I thought that Moa needed tuning, my first thought would be to see if I could get someone to add a reasonable Moa heal skill, maybe including a condi cleanse with the heal. I could be way off base, but that would be my first thought.

That being said, I agree with the majority of the responses here: SoH is a powerful skill with significant trade-offs (Elite, huge CD, easily blocked/dodged/invulned/anything else) and is probably fine. If I have any concerns, it’s how the current viability of Mesmer rests more heavily than ever on two skills (portal/moa).

If I was the dev in question I’d keep 5 as the evade/dash, but change 1-4 to the chicken dance. That way all the scrubs who qq over Moa can just stand there and hit any of those buttons, stand there dancing, and die.

They were defeated well before the signet was cast. Well before the match even started. Well before they even logged in XD

Ross I don’t know whose comments I find more entertaining, yours or Pyros. I look forward to reading both whenever I see them.

;D

I think Moa should turn you into random animals. Not just birds. I’m tired of being turned into a bird and then stunlocked. Frog, lizard, something else…

Moa and all mesmer elites still should not work with CS. Chronomancer is probably the biggest offender when it comes to elite specs from HoT that make core builds completely irrelevant. There’s so much power creep just from alacrity alone that even if you couldn’t CS elites, chronos would still be beasts.

This class needs a heavy nerf to Chrono along with some reasonable buffs to core spec specializations so that it both takes this class off the godly OP tier in PvP and also makes effective outside of Chrono.

A good example of this would be to buff DPS from core traits so that a mesmer could run something beyond Chrono support in a raid and be useful since the personal DPS of mesmer is just so terrible.

Dahkeus.8243:

Moa and all mesmer elites still should not work with CS. Chronomancer is probably the biggest offender when it comes to elite specs from HoT that make core builds completely irrelevant. There’s so much power creep just from alacrity alone that even if you couldn’t CS elites, chronos would still be beasts.

This class needs a heavy nerf to Chrono along with some reasonable buffs to core spec specializations so that it both takes this class off the godly OP tier in PvP and also makes effective outside of Chrono.

A good example of this would be to buff DPS from core traits so that a mesmer could run something beyond Chrono support in a raid and be useful since the personal DPS of mesmer is just so terrible.

I’ve seen this same thing parroted over and over again. Get used to it, the elite epcs aren’t going to be hard nerfed like you want, nor are the core specs going to recieve a buff, even then all it would do is make chrono unplayable. They already got a 40% nerf to alacrity. Any more and it will be totally useless with no reason to take them in raid.

I think the best option would be to just get rid of the moa and replace it with a completly new skill.

Levetty.1279:

I vote remove Moa and replace it with consume plasma.

You know, I’d actually take this. Providing it is on a very low cooldown for an elite.

The one to Rule.2593:

Dahkeus.8243:

Moa and all mesmer elites still should not work with CS. Chronomancer is probably the biggest offender when it comes to elite specs from HoT that make core builds completely irrelevant. There’s so much power creep just from alacrity alone that even if you couldn’t CS elites, chronos would still be beasts.

This class needs a heavy nerf to Chrono along with some reasonable buffs to core spec specializations so that it both takes this class off the godly OP tier in PvP and also makes effective outside of Chrono.

A good example of this would be to buff DPS from core traits so that a mesmer could run something beyond Chrono support in a raid and be useful since the personal DPS of mesmer is just so terrible.

I’ve seen this same thing parroted over and over again. Get used to it, the elite epcs aren’t going to be hard nerfed like you want, nor are the core specs going to recieve a buff, even then all it would do is make chrono unplayable. They already got a 40% nerf to alacrity. Any more and it will be totally useless with no reason to take them in raid.

But they have been. Look at Scrapper. Look at Dragon Hunter.

And if you read my post you’d see that I’m advocating buffs to core lines along with nerfs to the elite line, so no, they wouldn’t be useless in a raid or anything like that.

Want an example of how to do this as simply as possible?

Remove the ability to CS elite skills and then reduce the cooldown of Time Warp to be equal to CS.

Voila! Chronos are just as strong in raids as before and no longer OP moa spammers in PvP.

@ People suggesting moa get removed: I totally disagree with this. I think Moa is a unique skill that makes for some awesome clutch plays. However, without enough cooldown, it just becomes ridiculous. Before HoT, moa was a solid, balanced elite.

Dahkeus.8243:

The one to Rule.2593:

Dahkeus.8243:

Moa and all mesmer elites still should not work with CS. Chronomancer is probably the biggest offender when it comes to elite specs from HoT that make core builds completely irrelevant. There’s so much power creep just from alacrity alone that even if you couldn’t CS elites, chronos would still be beasts.

This class needs a heavy nerf to Chrono along with some reasonable buffs to core spec specializations so that it both takes this class off the godly OP tier in PvP and also makes effective outside of Chrono.

A good example of this would be to buff DPS from core traits so that a mesmer could run something beyond Chrono support in a raid and be useful since the personal DPS of mesmer is just so terrible.

I’ve seen this same thing parroted over and over again. Get used to it, the elite epcs aren’t going to be hard nerfed like you want, nor are the core specs going to recieve a buff, even then all it would do is make chrono unplayable. They already got a 40% nerf to alacrity. Any more and it will be totally useless with no reason to take them in raid.

But they have been. Look at Scrapper. Look at Dragon Hunter.

And if you read my post you’d see that I’m advocating buffs to core lines along with nerfs to the elite line, so no, they wouldn’t be useless in a raid or anything like that.

Want an example of how to do this as simply as possible?

Remove the ability to CS elite skills and then reduce the cooldown of Time Warp to be equal to CS.

Voila! Chronos are just as strong in raids as before and no longer OP moa spammers in PvP.

@ People suggesting moa get removed: I totally disagree with this. I think Moa is a unique skill that makes for some awesome clutch plays. However, without enough cooldown, it just becomes ridiculous. Before HoT, moa was a solid, balanced elite.

That last sentence. Before hot moa was a solid balanced elite. The cooldowm made this elite not worth it. Either tw for group damage or mass for personal defense. But moa did not see game play like you assert.

denis.9487:

Dahkeus.8243:

The one to Rule.2593:

Dahkeus.8243:

Moa and all mesmer elites still should not work with CS. Chronomancer is probably the biggest offender when it comes to elite specs from HoT that make core builds completely irrelevant. There’s so much power creep just from alacrity alone that even if you couldn’t CS elites, chronos would still be beasts.

This class needs a heavy nerf to Chrono along with some reasonable buffs to core spec specializations so that it both takes this class off the godly OP tier in PvP and also makes effective outside of Chrono.

A good example of this would be to buff DPS from core traits so that a mesmer could run something beyond Chrono support in a raid and be useful since the personal DPS of mesmer is just so terrible.

I’ve seen this same thing parroted over and over again. Get used to it, the elite epcs aren’t going to be hard nerfed like you want, nor are the core specs going to recieve a buff, even then all it would do is make chrono unplayable. They already got a 40% nerf to alacrity. Any more and it will be totally useless with no reason to take them in raid.

But they have been. Look at Scrapper. Look at Dragon Hunter.

And if you read my post you’d see that I’m advocating buffs to core lines along with nerfs to the elite line, so no, they wouldn’t be useless in a raid or anything like that.

Want an example of how to do this as simply as possible?

Remove the ability to CS elite skills and then reduce the cooldown of Time Warp to be equal to CS.

Voila! Chronos are just as strong in raids as before and no longer OP moa spammers in PvP.

@ People suggesting moa get removed: I totally disagree with this. I think Moa is a unique skill that makes for some awesome clutch plays. However, without enough cooldown, it just becomes ridiculous. Before HoT, moa was a solid, balanced elite.

That last sentence. Before hot moa was a solid balanced elite. The cooldowm made this elite not worth it. Either tw for group damage or mass for personal defense. But moa did not see game play like you assert.

God…I can’t believe I’m actually linking a Helseth video (well, besides his epic portal to his own lord, lol), but it’ll help prove my point. Here are several videos of pro league players using Moa long before HoT:

Helseth:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=opvrWKXY6Qo
Supcutie:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11uakNEQvMM
Misha (from Tournament of Legends Grand Finals):
https://youtu.be/V4U8ucGCipU?t=53

So yes, Moa was still plenty powerful before Chronomancer.

edit I couldn’t help myself. Here’s Helseth’s epic fail linked just because I’m not mature enough to not link it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F0HCg63Dvyw

Moa nerf idea number 2, change it into Engies version of Moa, watch as people still say its OP but don’t mention the engie skill.

Levetty.1279:

Moa nerf idea number 2, change it into Engies version of Moa, watch as people still say its OP but don’t mention the engie skill.

Honestly, if mesmer moa worked like engi moa, it would be fine. The duration of mesmer moa makes a huge difference. Engi moa is more of a simple counter to transform skills (lich, rampage, etc.), but the short duration makes it more like a stun in terms of actual CC.

Everyone thought engi moa would be ridiculously OP when they first heard about it, but since it’s been released and people have seen what a difference it is, there’s not really much complaint about it.

Dahkeus.8243:

Levetty.1279:

Moa nerf idea number 2, change it into Engies version of Moa, watch as people still say its OP but don’t mention the engie skill.

Honestly, if mesmer moa worked like engi moa, it would be fine. The duration of mesmer moa makes a huge difference. Engi moa is more of a simple counter to transform skills (lich, rampage, etc.), but the short duration makes it more like a stun in terms of actual CC.

Everyone thought engi moa would be ridiculously OP when they first heard about it, but since it’s been released and people have seen what a difference it is, there’s not really much complaint about it.

No, mesmer moa should be at least double what elixir X does, otherwise it’s a worthless elite (it’s an elite after all).

I’ve been spouting these changes to my peeps for awhile now, but increase visual animation a bit, because let’s face it, it’s VERY difficult to see it in a chaotic team fight, decrease CD (to better balance core spec) and decrease duration of moa to 6 or 7 seconds and I think it’d be fine. Most people complain the most about the last 3-4 seconds of the current transform duration anyway.

You could go further to change some of the moa specific skills to polish it off if need be, but all this talk of nerfing ability of elites working with CS is rubbish.

skcamow.3527:

Dahkeus.8243:

Levetty.1279:

Moa nerf idea number 2, change it into Engies version of Moa, watch as people still say its OP but don’t mention the engie skill.

Honestly, if mesmer moa worked like engi moa, it would be fine. The duration of mesmer moa makes a huge difference. Engi moa is more of a simple counter to transform skills (lich, rampage, etc.), but the short duration makes it more like a stun in terms of actual CC.

Everyone thought engi moa would be ridiculously OP when they first heard about it, but since it’s been released and people have seen what a difference it is, there’s not really much complaint about it.

No, mesmer moa should be at least double what elixir X does, otherwise it’s a worthless elite (it’s an elite after all).

I’ve been spouting these changes to my peeps for awhile now, but increase visual animation a bit, because let’s face it, it’s VERY difficult to see it in a chaotic team fight, decrease CD (to better balance core spec) and decrease duration of moa to 6 or 7 seconds and I think it’d be fine. Most people complain the most about the last 3-4 seconds of the current transform duration anyway.

You could go further to change some of the moa specific skills to polish it off if need be, but all this talk of nerfing ability of elites working with CS is rubbish.

I don’t know if this is just me, but there’s something about the animation that always makes me think it’s going to take a little longer than it does. So I’ll see it but something in my head tells me to dodge a moment later than I need to XD

It’s a 1s channel, but I always think it’s going to take at least 1 1/4. Don’t know why that is.

Same. I see it but for some reason I always dodge too late…

I’ll blame my aussie ping :p

If people want more time to react to Moa Morph, they could just make it like Magnet on Engi. 1.25 second channel with an obvious channel animation on the target not just the caster. Target starts to glow in a Mesmery way whilst Moa is being channelled so they can react to it even when a fight has become crazy hectic and it’s no longer possible to tell what the Mesmer is doing.

People are really overthinking this. Nerf CS to not work with elites and reduce Time Warp to be a cd of about 60-70 seconds to keep mesmer strong in PvE.

That’s it. That’s all that needs to be done.

Dahkeus.8243:

People are really overthinking this. Nerf CS to not work with elites and reduce Time Warp to be a cd of about 60-70 seconds to keep mesmer strong in PvE.

That’s it. That’s all that needs to be done.

So make the class mechanic like mimic? No thanks. This is the laziest way to fix it.

Simonoly.4352:

If people want more time to react to Moa Morph, they could just make it like Magnet on Engi. 1.25 second channel with an obvious channel animation on the target not just the caster. Target starts to glow in a Mesmery way whilst Moa is being channelled so they can react to it even when a fight has become crazy hectic and it’s no longer possible to tell what the Mesmer is doing.

Isn’t that the whole point. Having an icon on your bar and watching the Mesmer. I mean it’s hard enough to land as it is. We shouldn’t dumb down play or penalize for creative uses through positioning flanking or just by taking advantage of the chaos.

StickerHappy.8052:

Dahkeus.8243:

People are really overthinking this. Nerf CS to not work with elites and reduce Time Warp to be a cd of about 60-70 seconds to keep mesmer strong in PvE.

That’s it. That’s all that needs to be done.

So make the class mechanic like mimic? No thanks. This is the laziest way to fix it.

Not sure where you’re drawing the lines on your comparison to mimic, but your logic doesn’t hold up. CS already is like mimic in that allows a double use skills, but is different in that it’s much, much larger in scale and doesn’t force a cooldown on anything but CS itself.

Even if you cut out elites from use with CS, CS still works with more than just utilities.

And call it lazy if you want, but at it’s heart, it’s efficient since there’s no need to do anything more ambitious.