Guild Wars 2

This topic will only deal with Mesmer in PVE. Unfortunately Anet somehow lost there sanity and didn’t split pvp and pve(same principle as GW1). That is why every nerf/buff for Mesmer in PVP has grave consequences in PVE. Anet should go back to the GW1 model because every sane person knows that u cant balance booth modes with the same skill set simply because they are so vastly different from one another.
Now back on topic. I was playing the PVE story line with my Mesmer, and i like the Mesmer even though he seemed really weak throughout the game. However it wasn’t until the mission “The battle of claw island” ( Massive hordes of undead atk lion arch) that I realized just how bad ( i mean really bad) Mesmer deals with large groups of enemies. The whole time I was just auto atk and running away from mobs, casting “Chaos storm” then again running around away from mobs and waiting till “Chaos storm” was back up. Ofc i used my GS as well, mainly to cast beserker, but once you are getting chased by so many mob most of the GS skills are not usable while the enemies are chasing u. Yeah i know what u are thinking but we have “shatters”, well they were useless every time i tried to stack my illusion they
1) would get one shoted
2) they would not deal AOE dmg ( i mean the radius on those thing is really small )
3) their dmg was low to basically even bother to macro it all properly

I really like the Mesmer, but the whole illusion thing doesn’t seems to have been though out properly ( I would rather have hexes back from gw1) . For instance, it is really hard to predict how mobs tend to react to your illusion. Sometimes they ignore them completely and rush strait for u. Other times they just stop atk u all of a sudden and start atk the illusions . Also the AOE from Phantasms is unpredictable ( mainly berserk). Sometimes as soon as u cast your spell, " Berserker" will spin around. Sometimes when u cast the spell he will wait, then atk when the mobs have spread out making him only hit 1 mob.

Here is a quote from someone later down the topic that explain well why the mission was so annoying

On Claw Island, enemies spawn out of thin air. You’re in a fort with a line of cannons but.. it’s all useless. Enemies spawn right behind you, on top of you, no matter where you are. Why don’t they just spawn behind the Queen and end the war?
With Mesmer, this is even worse because on Claw Island enemies completely ignore your illusions. Every time they go after you and you alone.
Ianervan

sword, greatsword, staff, focus all have good aoe.

I agree, but then again I was playing that quest as a level 47. I didnt realize I have trait skill until I was level 53. It was hard, I did lose a few silver for dying. I basically playing a mesmer on a level 50 quest as a level 47 with 5 points in illusions. Mesmers are not that bad. You just learn how to survive. I do not mean run. I mean survive. Mesmers have plenty of survival ability that allows it to last in battle and flank the enemy. Use it. Mesmer are weak on close quarters but surprisingly good at picking away enemies

I have to agree, they should make shatter skills a little better. They are kidda useless.

Lol Mesmer is fine. If you want aoe run GS/Staff. Zerker/Mirror Blade and Chaos Storm are fine, and quickly popping out some illusions to mind wrack around a tightly packed group is good. Deceptive Evasion and Mirror Images work wonders for this.

I mean personally speaking, I love my illusions and the current AoE I have. Kiting is extremely important for the class to do for survival. But I like how much control we have. It makes the fragile balance between life and death in game all the more scary because one mistake could get you downed.

I am amazed at how many truly bad players there are. Mesmer is obviously not for you. You should probably roll a different class. May I suggest warrior or ranger with a bear pet?

Make sure you keep your weapons and armor up to date as well. Makes a difference in damage output and survival.

If your dying a lot scepter (main hand) 2 is a block.
Sword ( offhand ) 4 is also a block.
Sword (main hand) 2 makes you immune for 2 seconds ( 10 second timer)
Focus (offhand) 4 is a ground target that cripples foes and give you a speed boon. 5 phantasm substantially reduces ranged damage.

There are plenty of defensive skills at your disposal, just have to put them to use.

edit: @passive agressive…wow…there is making a troll post and then there is making a troll post. gg.

As others pointed, keeping your gear up to date is important. Personally every 10 levels or so I’d hit the TP and buy a full body new set of gear (don’t forget rings and amulets), oft times for less than 20 silver total.

Your complaints are valid, but you spoil it by mentioning you dislike Shattering. I dislike Shattering too, but there is a time and place for everything. Saying you dislike Shattering is like saying you like Rangers but dislike having a pet, so you never use one. You can play like that but it is a cornerstone of the class and if such distaste is so well ingrained then maybe the class is not for you.

That said you have a few utilities which will really help. Decoy sheds agro and gets you another clone, Mirror Images rocks until we get the clone-on-dodge. The class’ idea is that they do have AoE. On demand even, but if you refuse to it then you cannot complain about its lack.

As a non Shatter believer myself I hear you though. But lets say you agro three mobs. Staff (or greatsword) clone, Mirror Image, Shatter. Staff (or greatsword) phantasm followed by its clone and Decoy. Shatter again. Now both damage Shatters are down. Chaos Storm if you have it up and mop up. This was my standard procedure against three or more mobs.

I leveled with the Staff and with a distaste for the Greastsword, and only at 80, with all traits in place and all. did I made it my main weapon. Now that I know what to aim for I would have used it since much earlier.

10 points in Domination, for example, nets you a cripple-on-death trait. Since all GS clones spawn in melee that means you are sure to be keeping mobs slowed as the combat starts. Add another 10 points and you can have a Greatsword cooldown reduction.

20 in Dueling and you have the fabled clone-on-dodge. You can remove Mirror Images at this point in life.

With five points in Illusion and you have a 20% CD reduction on all illusions, traits and weapon skills. With this base core I mentioned you’re a mass producer of illusions with things dragging their leg as they try to catch up.

As for gear try to aim for power + crit. Nothing else is really needed.

The shatter build being mentioned by kanto has an achilles heel:

if you encounter more than one ranged in the packs you deal with, or any mobs which cause even moderate numbers of conditions, you will go down, FAST, due to having no points in inspiriation.

there’s a reason 10(x)/20/x/20(x)/x build with the focus trait is so heavily favored

Has anyone wondered why this posts pop up about Mesmer and not the rest of the classes?NO?How silly.

Kanto.1659:

As others pointed, keeping your gear up to date is important. Personally every 10 levels or so I’d hit the TP and buy a full body new set of gear (don’t forget rings and amulets), oft times for less than 20 silver total.

Your complaints are valid, but you spoil it by mentioning you dislike Shattering. I dislike Shattering too, but there is a time and place for everything. Saying you dislike Shattering is like saying you like Rangers but dislike having a pet, so you never use one. You can play like that but it is a cornerstone of the class and if such distaste is so well ingrained then maybe the class is not for you.

That said you have a few utilities which will really help. Decoy sheds agro and gets you another clone, Mirror Images rocks until we get the clone-on-dodge. The class’ idea is that they do have AoE. On demand even, but if you refuse to it then you cannot complain about its lack.

As a non Shatter believer myself I hear you though. But lets say you agro three mobs. Staff (or greatsword) clone, Mirror Image, Shatter. Staff (or greatsword) phantasm followed by its clone and Decoy. Shatter again. Now both damage Shatters are down. Chaos Storm if you have it up and mop up. This was my standard procedure against three or more mobs.

I leveled with the Staff and with a distaste for the Greastsword, and only at 80, with all traits in place and all. did I made it my main weapon. Now that I know what to aim for I would have used it since much earlier.

10 points in Domination, for example, nets you a cripple-on-death trait. Since all GS clones spawn in melee that means you are sure to be keeping mobs slowed as the combat starts. Add another 10 points and you can have a Greatsword cooldown reduction.

20 in Dueling and you have the fabled clone-on-dodge. You can remove Mirror Images at this point in life.

With five points in Illusion and you have a 20% CD reduction on all illusions, traits and weapon skills. With this base core I mentioned you’re a mass producer of illusions with things dragging their leg as they try to catch up.

As for gear try to aim for power + crit. Nothing else is really needed.

Yes i have up to date Gear. I have the best gear u could get at my lvl. I have a lvl 80 eng so money isn’t a prob for my mesm at that lvl. Did that same mission with grenade kit eng, I was wreaking faces.That said, I didn’t say mesm doesn’t have enough dmg. The mesmer just lacks AOE. Also during the whole mission, I didn’t die once. Mesmer has good kiting. . I run GW/Staff ( as far as I am concerned other weapons are bad in pve) .

1)Staff: Staff has one AOE and that is Chaos storm ( 1st skill doesn’t bounce, is unreliable)
2)GW: has one AOE, and that is “beserker”, again unreliable. 2nd skill also not that good ( bounces are limited) , 3rd skill really low radius.

Now U suggested to cast phantasms and then shatter them. What is the use of phantasms then?? Why not make all illusion clones and lower the cool downs. I would rather have that, since I benefit more from shattered illusions( traits) .
Didn’t U read my post where I was saying that Illusions sometime tend to get one shotted ?

Now lets talk about Utilities. We have mantras which no uses ( that like 5 utilities gone), we signets that are useless(3-4 Utilities gone). What is left is a limited pool of utility skills left making variation limited.

To conclude, Mesmers don’t have a RELIABLE way of dealing AOE dmg.

So they excel at Single Target damage!Good!

I don’t have these PVE problems that other people are complaining about on the forums.

In WvW, I regularly solo supply camps, which I constantly see other classes struggle at.

GS with 10 points in dom has a ton of ways to deal with melee and kiting – aoe snare (berserker), aoe knockback, aoe snare on clone death and all your damage is ranged. You can kite packs of melee all day.

To deal with ranged, you can use focus reflection, feedback, warden, reflect-on-heal.

In a pinch, you’ve got a aggro dump / escape in decoy and portal.

The staff is not a kiting weapon. It’s a tanking weapon. While you should be using kiting methods wherever possible/applicable, it’s not as sustainable as GS. If you’re getting killed with staff, analyze whether your stats are matching your playstyle, adapt, and resolve the problem.

Sorry about the double post, but I’d like to address these points individually:

Miyakuzi.2964:

…

1)Staff: Staff has one AOE and that is Chaos storm ( 1st skill doesn’t bounce, is unreliable)
2)GW: has one AOE, and that is “beserker”, again unreliable. 2nd skill also not that good ( bounces are limited) , 3rd skill really low radius.

Staff: Your basic attack hits several targets. Chaos storm hits several targets. Chaos armor hits as many targets as are hitting you and gives very good defensive buffs. The only single-target attack is warlock.

All of greatsword attacks are AoE, except for the autoattack.

- Berserker always snares your target and anything else in its path. It’s hardly unreliable.
– Mirror blade is great – it puts a clone ON your target and it always bounces several times on targets within range. You can bounce it off yourself if you’re close enough.
– Yes, the aoe on mind stab (?) / gs 3 is small; that means YOU have to learn to aim it better.
– GS 5 is an aoe knockback.

Miyakuzi.2964:

Now U suggested to cast phantasms and then shatter them. What is the use of phantasms then?? Why not make all illusion clones and lower the cool downs. I would rather have that, since I benefit more from shattered illusions( traits) .
Didn’t U read my post where I was saying that Illusions sometime tend to get one shotted ?

If your illusions die a lot, perhaps you should consider the on-illusion death traits. Illusions aren’t tanks, they’re distractions / “living hexes”. The mesmer is NOT a pet class.

Miyakuzi.2964:

Now lets talk about Utilities. We have mantras which no uses ( that like 5 utilities gone), we signets that are useless(3-4 Utilities gone). What is left is a limited pool of utility skills left making variation limited.

To conclude, Mesmers don’t have a RELIABLE way of dealing AOE dmg.

Mesmers have plenty of AoE – your problem is that you need to learn to utilize it better.

You realize – since you’re also harping on about the CS nerf – that it takes over 3 minutes to actually “lose” a cast?

That’s how crippling the nerf was.

evocati.8712:

Sorry about the double post, but I’d like to address these points individually:

Miyakuzi.2964:

…

1)Staff: Staff has one AOE and that is Chaos storm ( 1st skill doesn’t bounce, is unreliable)
2)GW: has one AOE, and that is “beserker”, again unreliable. 2nd skill also not that good ( bounces are limited) , 3rd skill really low radius.

Staff: Your basic attack hits several targets. Chaos storm hits several targets. Chaos armor hits as many targets as are hitting you and gives very good defensive buffs. The only single-target attack is warlock.

All of greatsword attacks are AoE, except for the autoattack.

- Berserker always snares your target and anything else in its path. It’s hardly unreliable.
– Mirror blade is great – it puts a clone ON your target and it always bounces several times on targets within range. You can bounce it off yourself if you’re close enough.
– Yes, the aoe on mind stab (?) / gs 3 is small; that means YOU have to learn to aim it better.
– GS 5 is an aoe knockback.

Miyakuzi.2964:

Now U suggested to cast phantasms and then shatter them. What is the use of phantasms then?? Why not make all illusion clones and lower the cool downs. I would rather have that, since I benefit more from shattered illusions( traits) .
Didn’t U read my post where I was saying that Illusions sometime tend to get one shotted ?

If your illusions die a lot, perhaps you should consider the on-illusion death traits. Illusions aren’t tanks, they’re distractions / “living hexes”. The mesmer is NOT a pet class.

Miyakuzi.2964:

Now lets talk about Utilities. We have mantras which no uses ( that like 5 utilities gone), we signets that are useless(3-4 Utilities gone). What is left is a limited pool of utility skills left making variation limited.

To conclude, Mesmers don’t have a RELIABLE way of dealing AOE dmg.

Mesmers have plenty of AoE – your problem is that you need to learn to utilize it better.

NO is disagree

Staff:
Basic atk don’t hit several targets, you can hit 2-3 if u are lucky. Most of the time it will ony hit one target.
GS:
Beserker= Unreliable AOE
Mirror blade =small bounce range
Mind stab= cant be cast while moving
And GS5= good knock back, but its just a SITUATIONAL cc skill

I don’t think u understood anything i was saying. Mesmer has some AOE, but it is UNRELIABLE!!! Meaning Cheaos storm is the only reliable form of AOE dmg.

My problem with Mesmer is the aoe, there’s classes that can auto attack and hit 4+ mobs from ranged and have Aoe abilities with 0-5 second cooldown, we get a 35 second aoe on staff. Dynamic events is all about Aoe tagging as many mobs as you can before they die so you get xp and loot. I get far less loot in dynamic events on my Mesmer then any other class I’ve played. We need a weapon that’s specialist in AoE like the warriors Longbow, Rangers axe, thieves shortbow, the list goes on and on.

We also have multi-attacks on the Sword, a very low-CD chain attack on the GS (which also has a longer CD CAE knockback dealing damage) and on the Focus. We’re not completely helpless in AEing, and that’s before I get to our actual AE tools, which are sadly mostly PvP-only.

Since you mention WArrior Longbow, just use GS and use #2. Quite comparable really.

As I mentioned in another thread, this is not requesting advice, it is just stating an opinion and the refusal to budge from it.

I say it works, you say it does not. I am happy, you are not. Maybe we are playing different Mesmers.

Regarding the one who mentioned my ‘shatter’ build. I only Shatter when I need AoE, otherwise I prefer leaving my illusions up since they serve as distractions. Ranged mobs? Please. Kill them first, the melee mob will join you and you’re AoEing both. Conditions? Vhe haf dis leetle zhing vhe call Null Field. Eet eez very good, ja. Are you swimming in conditions? Add Desinchanter too. I’m level 80 now and Null Field has been more than enough.

Well Kanto since u are oh soo wise. I challenge u to do the mission i mentioned in my first post with your Mesmer. Then do the same thing with an Ele, Necro, Eng… and then compare those two runs.

You forget I already am level 80. I did it with both a warrior and a mesmer. Your refusal to deviate from your chosen playstyle (never Shatter, keep illusions up at all costs, only use Staff) is what made the difference.

But I will not change your mind, will I? Lament.

The insistence for all classes performing in the same way makes no sense. Do you like an engineer’s superb AoE, varied kits allowing for a multitude of playstyles and steampunk vibe? Why, play one. Do you like purple papillons, soloing champions, being very hard to kill and a playstyle revolving around quick lived illusions? Stick with the mesmer.

I’m digressing from your question but I feel I’ve squeezed that one dry. Shatters are part of your AoE and how the class is balanced. A ranger without pets, a engineer without kits or a mesmer without shattering boil down to the same. And this, I repeat, from someone who dislikes shattering. I much prefer keeping them up and serving as distractions while I kill the mobs, but when I have 3+ group I know I have AoE available to me.

My first character was an elementalist, I am now leveling up a mesmer as my second.

It is a cakewalk compared to what I went through with my elementalist.

My mesmer does just fine with her latest 2 additions (exotic – GS and staff). I have her spec for condition damage and traited for the additional bounce. In my staff I have the sigil that stacks condition damage per kill and on the sword is the sigil for flame blast on crit. I relish when each thrown sword bounce crits and explosions wrack multiple foes in the aoe. The chaos storm is awesome in the damage it puts out. I also spec’d it so each time a mob enters/exits my glamor spells boundaries they are blinded. The only time my mesmer has trouble is when you have multiple mobs that root you then it gets hairy.

Keep illusions up to distract. In many dungeons the illusions keep trash mobs and even bosses busy from hitting on your party.

Although I hate the latest patch increase CDs on our spells, that really hurts.

I play pve on low level. GS is unrealizable because the damage does not warrant the skill set. Swords/swords are better. The extra block and temp immunity is very helpful. You can spam the second clones. Switch weapon sets to recharge. Staff is good because #2 is a dodge skill, but it doesnt work sometimes. and #5 is a powerful defense.

OP, why so much mesmer bashing? I’ve played (still playing) all three scholars, necro (52), ele (44), and mesmer (40) so although I’m not level 80, I think I can put in some input. Out of all three, mesmer was the last one I started because everyone said they were subpar in PVE and that is all I do, but after playing I fail to see how people can say this. I find mesmer the most fun to play and much more effective in PVE that my other scholars. The problem I think many people have however is the learning curve necessary to use mesmers efficiently.

1.) shatter shatter shatter. Shattering is our class mechanic and imo if your not using it in PVE then you are missing out. I run a phantasm/power build and while I don’t shatter as often kittenter mesmers, there are still times when you are missing out if you are not using it. When you have 2 clones out that are you about to rewrite in order to start summoning more phantasms, why not shatter? If you see a mob running to your illusion and will probably kill them, why not shatter? If the mob you are targetted on is about to die which means your illusions will go poof, why not shatter? Shattering is just a necessary/highly recommended if you want to play efficiently and there is no getting over that fact.

2.) Survivability. Mesmers are like roaches, they are terribly hard to kill and this is without even putting one point into toughness. Even when your downed, the #2 skill is a godsend. You can usually get yourself safely rallied or revived by using #2 to get away, #3 to have your rogue distract or kill the mob, and then #4 of course. The GS #5 is also a great skill for sticky situations, push mob(s) back and give you crucial time to form a plan of action. Decoy is in no way a necessity, but I rely on that skill so much. Whenever you see a mob(s) aggro you. You can just pop out a decoy and the mobs will generally run and attack one of your clones…or another player, but they aren’t attacking you but this leads to the next point.

3.) Mesmers (imo) are not a pet class. Are illusions are just that, illusions. It sounds mean, but our illusions are basically meatshields. Yes, phantasms are a major source of mesmer damage so you want to keep them alive if possible, but don’t rage and complain that they keep dying. Guess what? You can just keep popping out more. Clones as you have come to realize deal basically no damage, clones are for shattering/distracting nothing more (except for staff clones which are very useful on a condition build). My illusions have saved me so many times due to their distracting nature and I love them.

Also I understand that you don’t like the GS, that is your choice, but I don’t understand how you say it aoe isn’t good. Yes, we aren’t as aoe-y as the other scholars, but our aoe is not bad. I generally run GS/Staff or GS/Sword-Focus. If you utilize shatter, the GS #2 can be a little aoe. Use the skill and then shatter the clone immediately. GS #3 just needs to be used efficiently. Then #4, I read what you said about #4 and just…yeah. I love the berserker. Berserker is one of our best aoe imo. Each swing can hit 5 targets so as a result is can hit a high amount of mobs. The most efficient way I see that there is to use the berserker is to set in on the mob furthest away from you. To me that just seems to hit the most amount of mobs. Also my berserker tends to be survive the long out of my phantasms due to the fact he is constantly moving rather than the other phantasms which tend to stay in one place. Also berserker kiting is possible. You can circle kite while your berserker keeps spinning into the group you are kiting. Its not the fastest way, but when you are in a dungeon being chased by a crapload of mob, it buys some time while still doing some dps.

Basically I’m just saying that mesmers aren’t bad in pve. One must just used to playing one and realize how to play one efficiently for the best results.

Mesmer sucks in PvE. COMPARATIVELY SPEAKING! I cannot stress this point enough.

Some people, usually those who played precious little of other classes, will come and say they have plenty of AoE with shatters and whatnot. But comparatively speaking, other classes have TONS more AoE. This is really not even debatable. Since I leveled my Mesmer to 80, I already got an Engi to 80 and a slew of other classes about halfway or more. And simple truth is, classes like Guard (Retal, AoE), Warrior (insane AoE), Engi (insane AoE + blind chain in lieu of tanking), Thief (insane AoE + conditions + invulnerability while doing it) have considerably more AoE damage.

I have never been in a situation or seen anyone else playing a Mesmer that could outpace those 4 classes in kill speed. Both single target and AoE. I saw it playing my Mesmer. I saw it while playing other classes alongside other Mesmer. I have never seen anything to disprove this.

There’s tons of videos, like “mesmer is fine in orr”, showing well geared shatter build soloing multiple risen in Orr. Well, on my Engi I can kill more and in about half the time, wearing “I just turned 80” gear. How’s that for damage? More reliably too, because on occasion illusions get 1-shot, preventing a shatter, which drags out the engagement.

I’m sorry, but comparatively speaking Mesmer sucks in PvE. Is it the worst class? Probably not. Frankly I dislike both Necro and Ele more. But Mesmer is fine in PvE? That’s bunk. Compared to at least 4 other classes Mesmer is a joke in PvE.

smh

This might be the first time I have truly encountered a learn to play issue I felt was actually L2P. Despite all that is said about other classes these are builds not classes. Everyone muddles their way through PvE but we all do it differently. Not all Guards run retal or warriors GS/LB or engis run grenade/bomb or thieves run SB/DB etc. My point is AoE is not the making of a good PvE player just survive the content. Right now Mesmer has the most amount of builds that can be tossed together and work. You have so many tools at your disposal that its ridiculous. If any player cant get it to work that’s on them. While it requires a delicate touch its one of the easiest classes to play if not the easiest. If your mesmers sucks in PvE its you. If your mesmer sucks in PvP its you. If your mesmer sucks at any aspect of this game guess what its you.

Miyakuzi.2964:

Well Kanto since u are oh soo wise. I challenge u to do the mission i mentioned in my first post with your Mesmer. Then do the same thing with an Ele, Necro, Eng… and then compare those two runs.

I think what you are forgetting is that many of us care <nothing> how “easy” or “difficult” (considering this is about tagging, it is difficult to even call it difficult :P ) it is to get gold in a DE, as long as we reliably get gold.

Likewise, as long as I got tons of money, I don’t care whether someone else tags faster or kills a bit faster. So what, let them have their fun, too. It’s not like I lose anything as a result, and I certainly don’t feel like I underperform in PvE in any way.

I’ve stated before that PvE and PvP need to be seperately adjusted entities. As far as Mesmer’s high level preformance compared to other classes. People rate preformance based off of timeliness, which to me is a bad standard to have period.

Now, I’m all for buffs to Mesmer to make it better for PvE, that’s fine by me. But when you got people wanting severe nerfs for PvP, and people wanting buffs for PvE, you begin to realize just how bad it was to tether the two sections together.

TheGuy.3568:

smh

This might be the first time I have truly encountered a learn to play issue I felt was actually L2P. Despite all that is said about other classes these are builds not classes. Everyone muddles their way through PvE but we all do it differently. Not all Guards run retal or warriors GS/LB or engis run grenade/bomb or thieves run SB/DB etc. My point is AoE is not the making of a good PvE player just survive the content. Right now Mesmer has the most amount of builds that can be tossed together and work. You have so many tools at your disposal that its ridiculous. If any player cant get it to work that’s on them. While it requires a delicate touch its one of the easiest classes to play if not the easiest. If your mesmers sucks in PvE its you. If your mesmer sucks in PvP its you. If your mesmer sucks at any aspect of this game guess what its you.

In a very limited way, you are right. But at the same time, very, very wrong. I specifically picked my Engineer to be the same race/background as my Mesmer, just to re-play the same content/story and compare. And frankly, there’s no comparison.

There’s been lots of missions where my Mesmer would get absolutely swamped with 8-12 frenzied Risen. Was it impossible or a L2P issue? No, I killed them all. It just involved a very long time (comparatively speaking) and a boatload of kiting. On Engineer it involved pistol, grenade kit and bomb kit, and was done in about 1/4 of the time without ever even having to dodge. Simply put, superior AoE damage plus defense via stacking blinds made content that was challenging and time-consuming on a Mesmer into a total cakewalk on Engineer. Hence the whole “My god Mesmer is bad in PvE” argument. Because it’s true. Comparatively speaking.

Same with a Warrior or Guardian. And I’m sorry, while not every Guardian is retal, you can hardly break wind with that class without accidentally gaining retaliation. And coupled with all the passive defenses (regen, aegis, etc.), on top of heavy armor and offense/defense combo abilities, the content that you HAVE to kite/CC/evade a lot with (which IS slower than standing still and spamming damage), you can just stand and annihilate in seconds.

Let me give you a very simple example. You get to 40 on a Mesmer. You get clone-on-dodge trait, which most here feel is a game-changer. And it is pretty nice. But it is still a clone. It can be 1-shot, it does little/no damage, etc. What do you get on the same level as Engineer? You drop a bomb on dodge. This bomb cannot be destroyed, it will almost certainly (90%+) hit whatever enem(y/ies) you dodged, plus it’ll apply conditions. And the damage is guaranteed and virtually immediate. Two classes, but one is vastly superior at dealing with multiple hostiles, and much more reliable.

So, as much as I’d like to toot the same horn as you with the whole “L2P” and “it’s you” routine so many pull on this forum, I have yet to see any proof, in game or on video, of Mesmer being superior to at least 50% of other classes in PvE. I simply haven’t seen it or experienced it myself. Regardless of the class I play.

Conncept.7638:

My first character was an elementalist, I am now leveling up a mesmer as my second.

It is a cakewalk compared to what I went through with my elementalist.

I’m finding the exact opposite to be true. What sort of builds/loadouts were you using? I can’t get my mesmer to do anywhere near as much damage as my ele, and it splatters twice as fast despite all the tricks and blocks it has.

Sabbathius.1465:

Let me give you a very simple example. You get to 40 on a Mesmer. You get clone-on-dodge trait, which most here feel is a game-changer. And it is pretty nice. But it is still a clone. It can be 1-shot, it does little/no damage, etc. What do you get on the same level as Engineer? You drop a bomb on dodge.

Please don’t, those bombs are really bad. A scrap of damage is nothing compared to something that can eat an attack for you, or turn into damage, conditions, or a moment of invulnerability.

I think a lot of people are getting tied up in the whole “if you’re not first, you’re last” mentality. The reality is that we aren’t bad at PvE, we’re just not good at it. A well geared, skillful mesmer will hold his own without issue, but will also be easily matched by most other classes playing mediocrely in a PvE setting.

Exactly that, FlyingK. In the minds of many people crying here, there seems to be exactly 2 states your balance can be in:
- #1
- useless

Mesmers are amazing.. I am having literally 0 issues killing 4-5 mobs at 1 time with my staff / sword/focus . I can pump out endless illusions with my staff.

Let’s put it like this: when I play my other classes in DEs I’m very pleased to see mesmers – they give me buffs and don’t take away from my chance to gain lots of loot.

I don’t get why people seem to think there is no difference between PvE and PvP. For an example, just look at the Confusion condition. It does HALF damage in PvP. I’m sure there are other examples, but being a mesmer, that’s the most obvious one to me.

Anyway, to the real point of this thread: If you’re playing a mesmer in the manner in which you would play an elementalist, necromancer, or any other profession, then you lack a real understanding of how the mesmer works. Mesmers are NOT the “super destruction AOE-stomp everything into paste” machines, nor are they the “cut the target in half with the first attack” type.

Mesmer strengths are not in dealing direct damage or destroying an entire zone with one aoe skill. Their strengths lie in controlling the situation in ways that other classes can’t even conceive, and most players simply can’t (or won’t) understand. Using various trait builds that draw from the subtle strengths of mesmers, I’ve single-handedly taken down champions that can -and most often do- destroy any other class, and I barely take a hit in the process.

Many aspects are backward for mesmers, such as weapon choices and how they might best be utilized. For example, while the staff has a long range attack (1200 range), it does best if you’re attacking from close up, so Winds of Chaos can make use of its bounce, and Chaos Storm is not meant to be a purely offensive area attack. It bestows extremely useful boons to allies in the area, making it almost absurdly powerful in melee clusters. The greatsword is another favorite, and the use is contrary to “conventional” wisdom. Other classes are required to be up close and personal with a greatsword, but mesmers use them quite well from a distance. My point here is that to be a decent mesmer, you have to think outside the box and break from traditional views on combat.

Also consider the various uses of certain utility skills. My personal favorite is Feedback, and I use it more often against targets for reasons other than reflecting projectiles. It sets up a huge combo field for myself, illusions and allies (and even some enemies, to their detriment) to make use of, and when traited properly, it can blind, and even add two stacks of confusion to EVERY enemy within.

I hope the points people take from this long, long post are:

1. Mesmers are fine the way they are. They just need some minor fixes to their existing state.
2. Mesmers require significant skill and planning to play well.
3. Mesmers often require backward, out-of-the-box thinking when it comes to combat.
4. Playing a mesmer may not be for everyone. I’m sorry, but it’s true.

I really don’t like to say “learn to play” but that’s what it amounts to. To put it in perspective, I only just learned that the Phantasmal Defender applies its damage redirect to allies (and not just me), so now I’m devising ways to use it in my regular builds.

lollie.5816:

Let’s put it like this: when I play my other classes in DEs I’m very pleased to see mesmers – they give me buffs and don’t take away from my chance to gain lots of loot.

Not that you can kill-/lootsteal in GW2. :P

@Supervillain,

Intrigued by your commentary. Would you mind talking to me a little bit about how you believe Greatsword should be used, and how it’s contrary to “conventional” wisdom? I’ve been tinkering with Greatsword myself, and I’d like another perspective.

Carighan.6758:

lollie.5816:

Let’s put it like this: when I play my other classes in DEs I’m very pleased to see mesmers – they give me buffs and don’t take away from my chance to gain lots of loot.

Not that you can kill-/lootsteal in GW2. :P

If I had to explain it to anyone it would have to be you.

It means zzzz that if a group has a mesmer in it, my chances for getting loot aren’t diminished – other classes take away from your chance to gain loot by doing decent aoe damage.

Mesmers are very unthreatening like this, and happily just buff me.

different classes excel at different things. sure engis might kill a pack of 10 mobs faster, but can he solo veteran mobs without taking any hits, or a champion elite solo? i’ve even soloed group event bosses when no one was around. while barely taking any damage? plus the single target damage from a gs mesmer can be on par with thiefs, but mesmers have MUCH more utility to bring to the table.

@Eveningstar,

I really just mean that mesmers generally use the greatsword opposite the manner other professions use it. Spatial Surge does more damage the farther away the target is, Illusionary Wave is meant to push people back, and Phantasmal Berserker seems intended to keep people away. As I understand other classes with greatsword options, they’re required to be up close and personal to be effective.

lollie, that is not lootstealing, that is simply killing an enemy before you even laid hands on it. Comparatively speaking when someone in a FPS snipes an enemy you weren’t even aiming at, did he killsteal that from you?

Who said anything about loot stealing? I’m talking about mesmers providing no competition for doing the most aoe damage, amounting to more chance for me to get more loot.

If you don’t understand this, then you don’t understand anything about doing DEs.

Haette.2701:

Please don’t, those bombs are really bad. A scrap of damage is nothing compared to something that can eat an attack for you, or turn into damage, conditions, or a moment of invulnerability.

Damage is considerable. And they too apply conditions. And getting +1 second of invulnerability is nice, but is predicated on 60 sec cooldown ability. Which you will not have every fight, so it’s a clutch ability at best.

Eating an attack will buy you a tiny bit of time – but that also means it’ll drag out an engagement. Slower to kill -> less efficient. Simplest example is, you have 100 health, enemy has 100 health, you roll, mine goes off, he dies. On a Mesmer, same scenario, you roll, a clone appears, clone gets aggro (or not, 50/50 chance it seems), gets 1-shot, condition gets applied, wait, condition ticks, then he dies. Either way, immediate AoE damage + condition of the bomb is superior.

Clone just gives potential flexibility. I say “potential” because if your shatters are on cooldown, that clone is useless. If he doesn’t pull aggro/get killed, he is again useless, he won’t eat an attack for you. It’s a potential resource, but it is far from guaranteed that you’ll be able to get any use out of it. But a mine, it WILL go off. You know when, you know what the radius will be, and then depending on spec and whether it crits or not, you get conditions to boot. I mean, with my spec, you get 5 sec of vulnerability no matter what, just because it hits. Doesn’t do much good against ranged opponents, but with a mine kit the whole idea is to get on top of someone and shove a pack of mines down their throat, so it rarely happens, and Engi is a short/medium range class.

In theory, the clone is great. In practice, on average, a guaranteed to go off predictable effect is better. If I want invulnerability, I’ll pop Elixir S. If I want conditions, I’ll drop condition mines. It’s a lot more controlled, compared to a Mesmer. When it works, it’s great. When it doesn’t, it sucks. And it’s totally random.

Not that you can kill-/lootsteal in GW2. :P

Yes, you totally can.

You can force a state where enemy dies to your damage before someone else can apply sufficient damage to get a “tap” and thus get loot rights. You don’t benefit anything from it, of course, as everyone gets their own copy of loot. But you CAN totally cripple someone else’s profit margins.

This is especially obvious in heavily camped DEs in Orr, where targets die before they’re fully phased in to no-target-needed AoE damage. It is very common for classes like Engineer to get 90%+ tap rate, while classes like Mesmer are lucky to get 30%, if that.

Simplest example I can give you is, 5 Engis on the same spawn, spamming grenades on spawn point. Mob begins to phase in, and before he is even fully visible/targetable, gets hit with 5 grenade salvos at the same time (and oftentimes 5-10 turrets) and dies. Not much a Mesmer can do.

It’s not kill-stealing per se, but it is griefing of sorts. Just poor design, that’s all. The “it’s not killstealing if you are not even aiming at it” analogy doesn’t really work. They’re not aiming at it either, they’re aiming at the ground where it will appear. Only they get loot, and you don’t.

@Supervillain

Ah, I see. Thanks for the clarification. I’ve been enjoying my Mesmer a lot after two Guardians taken to level cap; it’s a challenging and complex class, and I get the general sense that it operates by creating a controlled disorder, if that makes any sense. Right now I’m working on figuring out how to get the most out of the weapons, because their use seems counterintuitive, and changes dramatically with Traits. Guardians don’t really have that quality. We’re very much a “what you see is what you get” profession.

No, Mesmer is not bad in pve. Bad would mean we struggle to kill mobs, which we don’t, or we die to one same leveled mob, which we don’t. Maybe you prefer some other class. It works better for you. Fantastic! Go play that. kittening on the Mesmer forums is a waste of electrons.

The battle of claw island was a cake walk for a Mesmer. I used a GS to kite, staff for AoE conditions and self buffs. Very honestly, if you are having trouble getting through story missions, look at your build or your play style. I promise you it’s not the profession. You’re just mesmering wrong.

Is Mesmer best, fastest, toughest, and most efficient? No, doubtfully. For any class to be best at everything is a bad idea anyhow. But bad at pve? Not remotely. I group plenty, and more often than not, they say they want to try Mesmer and ask about my build. Yeah, even engineers.

you should have arcane thievery, null field and decoy on your bar for this. condition damage is nasty in here, and decoy provided you aren’t using a staff as it’s bounce will immediately cancel , will have you drop all aggro.

i had an easier time on the claw island events wiht my mesmer than my ranger.

I would love if there was a trait to make shatters have a bigger aoe (or if they just changed them to be). And maybe just make Greatsword the “AoE” weapon, since for other classes their 2handed long ranged weapon is usually all about AoE.

Maybe changing the GS auto to basically chain/bounce (chain lightning effect) with reduced (or increased) dmg per bounce.

Or even sexier, change the laser beam to slinging purple crescent blades.

GS should be single target but with line/cone effect. The aoe weap should be the staff (makes more sense visually, pounding the staff into the ground to cause aoe tremors, while greatsword affects things in a line from it).