My new build
This is a fairly standard hybrid PU build. I’ll say that the hybrid part of it is not doing you any favors though. With only 515 condition damage, your conditions are going to do nothing more than tickle, at the very most. You’re really just sacrificing more damage from other sources with that bit of rabid armor and weapons. I’d recommend replacing that armor with cavaliers/knights to still give you that defense, but keeping in line with the power damage.
Will, i want to do condition and power at the same time. You think if i use condition food and utility it’ll be enough?
Will, i want to do condition and power at the same time. You think if i use condition food and utility it’ll be enough?
Nope. Just as a frame of reference I have 1500+ condition damage on my condi mes. You could go full sinister gear if you want to do a hybrid but you will be squishy and have to completely change your build.
So for a hybrid build you want to figure out a way to maintain your crit/ferority, then balance out your power/condi stats without dumping your sustain. Then to mitigate the overall reduction of either power and condi damage to their respective skills and applications, find a way to get might in there.
Finally put doom on both weapon swaps.
So a straight forward build would look like this
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fhAQRAsc7fnsISba2oGmpB3aGR1YM9L10CJDYhS2x2A-TVSHABtpVwJlg/o8oIlYws/Qhq/AmuABeCAAcSAIFAMzBA-w
But with a few additional tweaks of runes/sigils we can get some might carrying you through combat
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fhAQRAsc7flknpNtNqxMNcrNiqxY6XqpFSGwClMjtB-TVSHABtpVwJlg/o8oIlYF8EAKU9Hw0Fg2+DAcSAIFAMzBA-w
Note: I’d also drop phant fury for double traited manips. The extra range will make your life easier (allowing those AT’s to hit outside of 900) and more survive/control with a long range blink. Phant Fury is a waste on the torch, and less than favorable on the iSwordsman vs the iDuelist.
I have to chime in as the above erroneous thinking is a pet peeve of mine:
515 condi dmg, while not that much, is not different from having about 515 extra power dmg. Yes it is a little different because of coefficients on skills etc., but the point is, and everyone really needs to accept this when discussing hybrid dmg:
Damage stats scale linearly
This is according to https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Damage_calculation , which if it’s wrong I guess kitten me and apologies to all for what follows.
For less mathy types, what this means is that the difference between 1000 power and 1500 power is exactly the same as the difference going from 1500 power to 2000 power. Same goes for condition dmg.
When anyone tells you, as many do, that for example 700 condi dmg and 1600 power is useless because your conditions are weak and your power dmg is weak, they are implicitly claiming dmg is nonlinear, because what they are implying is that the dmg coming from that 700 condi dmg is less than the dmg that would come from an extra 700 power.
Your 500 condi dmg does just as much dmg above 0 condi dmg as someone with 2000 condi dmg does above having 1500.
Now, someone could get really down and dirty with exact skill coefficients if they wanted to, and yes those determine how the dmg stats actually translate into dmg, but condi and power are at least roughly equivalent, in that someone with 1000 condi dmg and 1000 power deals about the same dmg as someone with 2000 condi dmg or 2000 power alone.
If you have the variety of skills to apply both direct and condi dmg, which mesmer is certainly capable of having, the argument that neither your condis not your direct dmg will hurt the enemy is flat out wrong. Yes, alone either of them won’t do much, but because dmg scales linearly the dmg from both added together will hurt your target, very much, in fact about just as much as if you focused on one stat alone.
So, from a stats perspective, hybrid is perfectly fine. Whether or not we have the skills and traits to optimally pull it off and deliver the dmg from those hybrid stats is another discussion (I think we do).
So for a hybrid build you want to figure out a way to maintain your crit/ferority, then balance out your power/condi stats without dumping your sustain. Then to mitigate the overall reduction of either power and condi damage to their respective skills and applications, find a way to get might in there.
Finally put doom on both weapon swaps.
So a straight forward build would look like this
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fhAQRAsc7fnsISba2oGmpB3aGR1YM9L10CJDYhS2x2A-TVSHABtpVwJlg/o8oIlYws/Qhq/AmuABeCAAcSAIFAMzBA-wBut with a few additional tweaks of runes/sigils we can get some might carrying you through combat
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fhAQRAsc7flknpNtNqxMNcrNiqxY6XqpFSGwClMjtB-TVSHABtpVwJlg/o8oIlYF8EAKU9Hw0Fg2+DAcSAIFAMzBA-wNote: I’d also drop phant fury for double traited manips. The extra range will make your life easier (allowing those AT’s to hit outside of 900) and more survive/control with a long range blink. Phant Fury is a waste on the torch, and less than favorable on the iSwordsman vs the iDuelist.
Very Interesting build. Thank you, i’ll try them out
I have to chime in as the above erroneous thinking is a pet peeve of mine:
515 condi dmg, while not that much, is not different from having about 515 extra power dmg. Yes it is a little different because of coefficients on skills etc., but the point is, and everyone really needs to accept this when discussing hybrid dmg:
Damage stats scale linearly
This is according to https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Damage_calculation , which if it’s wrong I guess kitten me and apologies to all for what follows.
For less mathy types, what this means is that the difference between 1000 power and 1500 power is exactly the same as the difference going from 1500 power to 2000 power. Same goes for condition dmg.
When anyone tells you, as many do, that for example 700 condi dmg and 1600 power is useless because your conditions are weak and your power dmg is weak, they are implicitly claiming dmg is nonlinear, because what they are implying is that the dmg coming from that 700 condi dmg is less than the dmg that would come from an extra 700 power.
Your 500 condi dmg does just as much dmg above 0 condi dmg as someone with 2000 condi dmg does above having 1500.
Now, someone could get really down and dirty with exact skill coefficients if they wanted to, and yes those determine how the dmg stats actually translate into dmg, but condi and power are at least roughly equivalent, in that someone with 1000 condi dmg and 1000 power deals about the same dmg as someone with 2000 condi dmg or 2000 power alone.
If you have the variety of skills to apply both direct and condi dmg, which mesmer is certainly capable of having, the argument that neither your condis not your direct dmg will hurt the enemy is flat out wrong. Yes, alone either of them won’t do much, but because dmg scales linearly the dmg from both added together will hurt your target, very much, in fact about just as much as if you focused on one stat alone.
So, from a stats perspective, hybrid is perfectly fine. Whether or not we have the skills and traits to optimally pull it off and deliver the dmg from those hybrid stats is another discussion (I think we do).
Thanks for the explanation.
Damage stats scale linearly
-snip-
Unfortunately, this is a case of abusing math to obtain an improper result. You mention something in passing and then blow by it, lets look at it again:
Yes it is a little different because of coefficients on skills etc.
This is a BIG DEAL. You can’t just ignore this. Coefficients determine the scaling for ultimate damage output. Here’s a really quick example to illustrate it:
Lets look at the difference between 1000 and 1500 condition damage for 10 stacks of bleed and burning.
Bleed
(.05*x + 42.5)*10 = dps
x = 1000 : dps = 925
x = 1500 : dps = 1175
1175/925 = 1.27
1175-925 = 250
You can see that going from 1000 to 1500 condition damage is a 27% increase in total damage, not 50% like a direct linearly scaling stat would imply. You can also see that the 500 condition damage translated into a flat 250 dps increase.
Burning
.25*x + 328 = dps
x = 1000 : dps = 578
x = 1500 : dps = 703
703/578 = 1.216
703-578 = 125
You can see that the same increase in condition damage produces only at 21.6% increase in overall damage for burning compared to the 27% increase for 10 stacks of bleeding. You can also see that the 500 condition damage translated into a flat 125 dps increase.
So this is a really clear example showing that not all stats are created equal. Condition damage alone is worth different amounts depending on what conditions you use and how you use them. On top of that all, it’s worth noting that conditions have a flat amount added after scaling is applied. This is what causes the difference in % increase, and this difference will actually get smaller as your condition damage increases.
Suffice to say, this is not as simple of an interaction as you think. Also remember that all of this analysis is before even taking into account the effects of other stats such as condition duration, critical chance, and critical damage. Adding those in makes an already complicated analysis vastly more complex.
Additionally, you need to take into account what I like to call ‘Math-Based Diminishing Returns’ (MBDR). There’s no actual diminishing returns on stats in this game, but MBDR will strike regardless of hardcoded DR or not. Here’s how this works:
Starting with a stat of 1000, adding 500 to get you to 1500 is a 50% increase.
Starting with a stat of 2000, adding 500 to get you to 2500 is a 25% increase.
So as you get more of a stat, adding additional amounts of it is less efficient from a % standpoint. This is most effectively viewed with power and crit. Once you’ve already got 2000 power, adding more power is relatively less effective, because you could be getting a significantly higher crit chance. Tripling your chance to crit (from say 10 to 30, costing 420 precison), assuming 200% critical damage, produces a 23.8% increase in damage. Compare that to adding 420 power if you already have 2500 power — 2920/2500 = 1.168, or only a 16.8% increase in damage
On top of all of this, you have to take into account other less mathable variables such as enemy condition cleanse, the average armor of enemies you face, the effectiveness of your condition application, how effective confusion you apply will be (so how skilled are your enemies). All of these things combine to make an incredibly complex picture for determining the effectiveness of stat scaling.
Generally speaking, the effectiveness of your condition application is really the kicker for hybrid builds. What happens very often when trying to make a hybrid build is that you end up with relatively poor ways to do both power and condition damage, because you don’t specialize into either. This ends up making both of your damage stats less effective than they could be. Compare this to specializing for either condition damage or power damage, where you’re making the absolute best possible use out of your chosen stat.
To get around this, you’ll often try to pick weapons that do a good job at both. The iDuelist is pretty decent here — it does a lot of bleeds, and it does strong power damage. Scepter is pretty decent too — it has good power scaling and also does a lot of conditions. Greatsword and staff are both decent in different ways. This aspect of making a hybrid is really the most important part, far more important than the actual stats you end up with.
Damage stats scale linearly
-snip-
Unfortunately, this is a case of abusing math to obtain an improper result.
The equations you list are linear in x, just so everyone is clear. So what is my improper result? I said: “From a stats perspective” hybrid is fine. Everything you wrote supports that claim. In fact, your analysis using “Math Based Diminishing Return” implies that it is always more efficient to increase your lowest dmg stat, if you are concerned with % efficiency gain per stat point. If you want to make it, it is an argument for choosing hybrid stats.
You go on to sort of explain that choosing skills matter and how you apply them etc., which is fine, and yet look at your first post. You say 515 condi dmg is too little and that’s basically it, even though it’s a gain of over 50% over not having any in the case of bleeds for example. What’s more, your MBDR’s measure going from 0 in a stat to anything as an infinite gain in % efficiency. More concrete, going from 100 condi to 500 is a 500% gain. Putting that extra 400 into power will be much less efficient in terms of % gain in dmg. This is why talking about % gain can be misleading.
So if you want to make the claim that hybrid is ineffective based on ability to apply both types of dmg effectively in a build, go on and say that. But you didn’t, and the post after you also didn’t, which is why I made my post stating that from a stats perspective there is no argument against hybrid. In fact as I just showed, your post states that from a strictly stat perspective, it is almost always more efficient in percentage terms to allocate hybrid in dmg stats.
That’s all I’m saying: If someone posts a hybrid build, commenting and knocking it based on stats alone is incorrect.
Edit: Realized I ignored your last two paragraphs. This general statement about poor ways to do both is again some kind of implicit nonlinearity, in that having 1 or 2 condi applications and 1 or 2 power applications is less effective that 2-4 power or 2-4 condi (numbers for illustration only). Now you may be right, but to prove it you need some evidence to back up your claim. Basically saying it is impossible to build in a way that effectively applies condition and power dmg is pretty wild without providing any real arguments.
It’s kind of weird that in your last paragraph you actually start giving examples of tools we have that are in fact good at both types of dmg. So are you saying one can’t effectively build for hybrid trait wise or weapon wise? One could go scepter/torch + sword/pistol for example. Even great sword can be a good hybrid weapon, as the clones from it are the best ones at applying bleeds due to the GS auto attack. Traits I don’t see any obvious issue, but correct me if there is.
So ya, in your first post you use only stats, and in your response to mine you make some general claim about mesmers being unable to build effectively for hybrid, and also say that stats aren’t really the issue in going hybrid. You’ve done this before, and it’s misinformation, which coming from you is surprising. Given your reputation as a source of reliable info, I think you should either refine your arguments against hybrid into something coherent or stop making them.
(edited by MSFone.3026)
Damage stats scale linearly
-snip-
Unfortunately, this is a case of abusing math to obtain an improper result.
The equations you list are linear in x, just so everyone is clear. So what is my improper result?
You took the statement that all damage calculations are linear and used that to imply that they’re all linear to the same magnitude. Some have a higher linear scaling, others lower. The difference is in the skill coefficients that you dismissed at the start of your post.
I said: “From a stats perspective” hybrid is fine. Everything you wrote supports that claim. In fact, your analysis using “Math Based Diminishing Return” implies that it is always more efficient to increase your lowest dmg stat, if you are concerned with % efficiency gain per stat point. If you want to make it, it is an argument for choosing hybrid stats.
You’re absolutely right that an analysis based purely on MBDR tends to favor essentially an equalization of stats. An analysis based on that alone, however, is faulty for the other reasons I mentioned. There’s a good reason I used Power vs Precision as my example for MBDR, and that’s because MBDR doesn’t apply as directly when you’re comparing conditions and power.
MBDR is, as you noted, as % based approach. % based approaches can be highly misleading if you don’t also consider the absolute values that they produce. In the case of prec vs power, the % are both based off of the same starting value, meaning that they’re a good basis for comparison. If you try to apply MBDR with power/prec vs condition damage, you’ll find the exact opposite.
Another bit of a complication is that conditions are really easy to pull dps values out of. Something like phantasms are much harder. A pSwordsman has roughly a .5 power scaling coefficient (per second)…but that’s contingent upon it being alive and attacking, and that scaling can be potentially boosted by critical hits.
Ultimately, if you actually go through and crunch the numbers, power scaling blows condition damage scaling clear out of the water (see —> pve meta). Trying to claim that point per point, condition damage is equal in strength to power is simply brutally false. There are absolutely ways to justify running conditions (I prefer roaming as a condie build), but making a linear scaling-based argument is not one of those ways.
The reason I noted that having a small amount of condition damage is not worth it is tied to the application techniques that I mentioned. If you’re equally good at dealing both condition and power damage, then you should attempt to gain semi-even amounts of both (MBDR is more applicable in this case). However, if you’re more focused on power damage, every point of condition damage is now basically far less effective than it could be. MBDR does not apply, because due to build constraints you’re simply not getting mileage out of those condition damage points.
That is the case here—the build is primarily focused on power damage, and the condition damage application is pretty much limited to debilitating dissipation and scepter 2. That’s going to be maybe 7 stacks of torment (absolute maximum) and 3-5 stacks of bleed (again, maximum). That’s really just awful condition application, and that makes condition damage from his build, as I stated, tickle at worst. I didn’t go into a full explanation of why it would only tickle at worst, but that’s still the case of what would occur.
Edit: Response to your edit
It’s kind of weird that in your last paragraph you actually start giving examples of tools we have that are in fact good at both types of dmg. So are you saying one can’t effectively build for hybrid trait wise or weapon wise? One could go scepter/torch + sword/pistol for example. Even great sword can be a good hybrid weapon, as the clones from it are the best ones at applying bleeds due to the GS auto attack. Traits I don’t see any obvious issue, but correct me if there is.
If you look through my posts carefully, you’ll notice that I never actually said that mesmer can’t do hybrid. I just pointed out a lot of reasons why hybrid builds often aren’t very good, and then finished with recommendations as to a direction to go for a more effective hybrid build.
I didn’t provide those recommendations in the original post because the smallest modification to the shown build was a slight stat change, compared with drastically changing weapon choices.
(edited by Fay.2357)
I kinda agree with Pyro here (didn’t read all the math, it’s too early in the morning) that the condi damage doesn’t look like enough. Not really because it’s too low, but the build doesn’t look like it can apply conditions well enough.
I’ve run hybrid shatter build with around the same amount of condi damage with pretty good results. However it has high(ish) might stacks from GS and shatters and MtD applies constant condition pressure. GS clones also do pretty good bleeds if you let them live.
Unless your weapons are set in stone, you could try with GS instead of Sw+Sw,
N*** Dew Gunnar’s Hold
WvW Roaming with Mesmer
WvW Roaming with Mesmer
If you look through my posts carefully, you’ll notice that I never actually said that mesmer can’t do hybrid. I just pointed out a lot of reasons why hybrid builds often aren’t very good, and then finished with recommendations as to a direction to go for a more effective hybrid build.
I didn’t provide those recommendations in the original post because the smallest modification to the shown build was a slight stat change, compared with drastically changing weapon choices.
What did I say: You can’t make an argument against a hybrid build based on stats alone. Yes I did not provide justification of roughly equating points in condi dmg and power, of course neither did you do the opposite, for the reasons you mentioned: That when it comes down to reality there are too many variables to make anything like that precise at all. What I can say though is what I did say and what I’ll say again: Simply saying one stat is too low is not enough to make a complete comment on a build, and in fact can be misleading.
If you had said in your first post, “You don’t have enough ways to effectively apply conditions to take advantage of that 515 condi dmg, and so you should just drop it for more power focused stats instead,” then I would not have written anything honestly.
Again, my point is: One cannot make an argument based solely on stats against any hybrid build. That’s it. While all the nuance in your later posts is appreciated, I guarantee you none of that comes across implicitly to a new player like the OP in your first post. In fact from your responses to me I can tell there is no achievable amount of stat tweaking that would make the OP’s build make sense as a hybrid build to you (or anyone really) because the problem isn’t the stats, its the application as you said. So that is what you should say. If you mention stats alone it is misleading, as I said.