Guild Wars 2

Please nerf PU. 50% increase to stealth duration is OP, considering with my stealth skills, including double Mass Invis via Continuum Shift, I can stealth for almost 30 seconds straight. Please remove the increase to stealth duration and instead change it so that the boons you get while in stealth last longer, and maybe you get two boons per second of stealth instead of just one. But please get rid of the increase to stealth duration.

All they need to do is make sure you slow 50-70% in stealth and can’t do anything else.

Almost every class with stealth can stealth like that now.

Try to be a bit more constructive and provide some context when you create a thread.

And what a player who stays in stealth for the major part of a game contribute to his team? In stealth you don’t cap points….Anyway who the heck uses mass invisibility and for what purpose? Isn’t moa or gravity well better ?

Yeah I wanted to say, you’re about 12 months too late. It is already nerfed by 40% or so. And no, other than for-lulz 1v1 specs, no one uses it any more.

I feel nostalgic atm the good old 2014 meta

lol, mass invis and PU builds are boarderline useless in PvP. It anything, they are actually underpowered choice….

you are 1 year late PU is not useful anymore and it was nerfed into the ground another wasted trait in line thx to nerfs

Why do you think I’m talking about PvP? I’m talking about for WvW.

LionChain.7694:

Why do you think I’m talking about PvP? I’m talking about for WvW.

You’re still wrong? You know what a mesmer sitting in stealth for 30 seconds does?

Nothing. It does nothing.

Fay, have you ever fought a mantra PU burst mesmer in WvW roaming before? It is pretty cheese b/c PU is OP.

LionChain.7694:

Fay, have you ever fought a mantra PU burst mesmer in WvW roaming before? It is pretty cheese b/c PU is OP.

Yes. I dodged their opener mantra burst then killed them. It’s not like it’s that hard to predict when the burst is coming and pop a couple mitigation skills. Maybe it’s your fault for running a glass build that has no mitigation options?

LionChain.7694:

Fay, have you ever fought a mantra PU burst mesmer in WvW roaming before? It is pretty cheese b/c PU is OP.

True that PU make them quite hard to kill but so are a lot of other roaming specs. Engi, ranger, thief, ele just survive as well.

The burst is probably high because of WvW stats but it won’t change the fact that they can’t burst very often and there is little damage from mesmer in between bursts. If you have problem with PU burst mesmer, the chance is that you will have problem with other specs too.

Mesmer is way way down the list of things to worry about in the WvW roaming scene – if indeed WvW still has a “scene” because it’s just terrible right now.

PU actually does very little to facilitate a fight as the burst rotations will be exactly the same regardless. It’s mostly useful for disengaging where chaining stealth is actually beneficial.

Sounds like you’re likely having more trouble with CS and Mantra of Distraction which yes is pretty darn hard to counter at times, but – take it from someone who plays other classes in WvW – Mesmer needs everything it can get right now to be relevant at any level in WvW. Herald, Dragonhunter, Druid, Scrapper, Dagger Daredevil and condi Reaper will eat you alive in small scale roaming or larger WvW fights.

People play PU in 2016? Wait, people complain about PU in 2016?!

I beg Kormir to grant me understanding and truth.

eta after actually reading the thread:

Fay, have you ever fought a mantra PU burst mesmer in WvW roaming before? It is pretty cheese b/c PU is OP.

Balance decisions should never EVER be based around WvW Roaming. /thread

PU is not nearly as strong as it once was, I typically run it for group veils and Mass Invis in havoc when not using Gravity Well. Meanwhile scrappers have sneak gyro and elixir S stealth , thieves have stealth almost all the time if running D/P (due to Black Powder).

edit: In addition to PU being weaker than its older versions, revealed is more common due to every herald having access to it via Gaze of Darkness. Dragonhunters also have revealed (Light’s judgement); rangers have sic em but that’s not a must have utility, sneak gyro and engineers with Lock on trait.

LionChain.7694:

Fay, have you ever fought a mantra PU burst mesmer in WvW roaming before? It is pretty cheese b/c PU is OP.

Ok, in what way?

LionChain.7694:

Fay, have you ever fought a mantra PU burst mesmer in WvW roaming before? It is pretty cheese b/c PU is OP.

We all have – and it is completely unimpressive in the current environment.

It is worse than it was a year ago before we even got the full tree trait model.

It has been nerfed multiple times since the summer.

The expansion has brought in a number of new builds that does better.

That has brought in a new meta where players run at least some basic survival buffer.

Add to that, that Mesmers have always been fairly predictable to an experienced player and that their burst has a moderate to low reapplication time or pressure (without condi or condi hybrid stats) and you will not be able to convince anyone here on the Mesmer forums about how you have trouble with a backtied, outdated, gimmicky and unfit assassination build.

I’m not saying you can’t burst with a full assassination build, you can, but it is very odd to see you come here to complain about such a build in a world of CoR, gunflame, longbows, traps and buffed thieves. Not to mention certain broken condi- and hybrid builds (of which the Mesmer has its best builds currently too, and has had since last june).

LionChain.7694:

Please nerf PU. 50% increase to stealth duration is OP, considering with my stealth skills, including double Mass Invis via Continuum Shift, I can stealth for almost 30 seconds straight. Please remove the increase to stealth duration and instead change it so that the boons you get while in stealth last longer, and maybe you get two boons per second of stealth instead of just one. But please get rid of the increase to stealth duration.

*Points and laughs

Lol PU?? Lololol ni haven’t seen PU in a while, lol I would rather run chrono or something else. PU is dead son, reroll your class or l2p PU is worthless now adays. You would be better off playing straight mantra or condi mesmer. PU is n only useful for survival in wvw. Other than that gl killing any decent players worth their salt.

Narsil.6579:

LionChain.7694:

Please nerf PU. 50% increase to stealth duration is OP, considering with my stealth skills, including double Mass Invis via Continuum Shift, I can stealth for almost 30 seconds straight. Please remove the increase to stealth duration and instead change it so that the boons you get while in stealth last longer, and maybe you get two boons per second of stealth instead of just one. But please get rid of the increase to stealth duration.

*Points and laughs

Lol PU?? Lololol ni haven’t seen PU in a while, lol I would rather run chrono or something else. PU is dead son, reroll your class or l2p PU is worthless now adays. You would be better off playing straight mantra or condi mesmer. PU is n only useful for survival in wvw. Other than that gl killing any decent players worth their salt.

This post died. It died 5 days ago. And you chose to bring it back, why?

Everyone already knows and have said that this thread was laughable and passed it off. But no. You. You HAD to make everyone else know that your point is EXACTLY THE SAME as what everyone else has said. You had to. Because you’re special. You’re a special snowflake.

Fay.2357:

LionChain.7694:

Why do you think I’m talking about PvP? I’m talking about for WvW.

You’re still wrong? You know what a mesmer sitting in stealth for 30 seconds does?

Nothing. It does nothing.

It gets a free reset on its important cooldowns/shatters uninterrupted, resurrect downed players, enable portal play, deals damage from any clones or phantasms while enabling an OOC reset while the opponent can’t, stops single-target/targeting, and gains lots of boons and can stack protection and regen. In WvW stealth is king for most classes with access to it despite it not being the case in sPvP due to the simple fact a stealthed target can’t cap or decap. As it stands currently, mesmers have some of the most powerful and useful stealthing abilities and synergy in the entirety of WvW.

I understand you’re a very reputable mesmer, but I’m sorry, a large majority of top-tier roaming and guild groups will definitively state that the claim of a stealthed mesmer is a useless one is a gross oversimplification of the format and the class’s capabilities in WvW.

Frankly, a non-stealthed mesmer is much less useful and accomplishes next to nothing for the format.

DeceiverX.8361:

It gets a free reset on its important cooldowns/shatters uninterrupted,

I’ll give you this one, sitting in stealth is a great way to get cooldowns back.

DeceiverX.8361:

resurrect downed players

The moment a player is getting resurrected, the stealthed mesmer has committed suicide. Their location and current action has now been pinpointed, and they should be revealed and killed.

Additionally, the OP is obviously talking about a dueling situation, not a group fight. His ridiculous claims about assassination potential from a glassy mantra mesmer are clearly not functional in a group fight.

DeceiverX.8361:

enable portal play

You do this with shadow refuge, you don’t waste a full bar of skills and traitline on a mesmer to accomplish the same effect.

And once again, you don’t portal play in a duel. The op is complaining about being assassinated by a glassy mesmer, not that he got outplayed by a portal strategy.

DeceiverX.8361:

deals damage from any clones or phantasms while enabling an OOC reset while the opponent can’t

Yeah…that’s not how combat works. Firstly, clones and phantasms will be killed in an instant by anyone with a functioning head on their shoulders. Secondly, your illusions keep you in combat just the same as if you were smacking them personally.

DeceiverX.8361:

stops single-target/targeting, and gains lots of boons and can stack protection and regen.

Sure, but what is this accomplishing? You just wasted your entire skillset to get this long stealth, there’s no followup that’s coming from it. Any possible followup is easy to predict and counter.

DeceiverX.8361:

In WvW stealth is king for most classes with access to it despite it not being the case in sPvP due to the simple fact a stealthed target can’t cap or decap. As it stands currently, mesmers have some of the most powerful and useful stealthing abilities and synergy in the entirety of WvW.

This…is only marginally true. Having the capability to stealth is important in WvW because it allows you to survive and escape situations that would otherwise be deadly. However, it’s far from being the 1-button-win that you’re insinuating it is. Many classes have very potent anti-stealth tools these days, and that means that just hitting stealth isn’t good enough to keep yourself alive.

DeceiverX.8361:

I understand you’re a very reputable mesmer, but I’m sorry, a large majority of top-tier roaming and guild groups will definitively state that the claim of a stealthed mesmer is a useless one is a gross oversimplification of the format and the class’s capabilities in WvW.

Once again, you’re just blurring points and being incredibly disambiguous. If you’re talking about roaming and guild groups, then you have a thief or smoke blasts to stealth the mesmer, not a PU mesmer wasting all their cooldowns. It sounds to me like you have a problem with stealth and a problem with the raw utility that mesmer offers, but your complaints are 110% off topic with respect to this thread, which is complaining about PU.

Fay.2357:

DeceiverX.8361:

It gets a free reset on its important cooldowns/shatters uninterrupted,

I’ll give you this one, sitting in stealth is a great way to get cooldowns back.

DeceiverX.8361:

resurrect downed players

The moment a player is getting resurrected, the stealthed mesmer has committed suicide. Their location and current action has now been pinpointed, and they should be revealed and killed.

Additionally, the OP is obviously talking about a dueling situation, not a group fight. His ridiculous claims about assassination potential from a glassy mantra mesmer are clearly not functional in a group fight.

DeceiverX.8361:

enable portal play

You do this with shadow refuge, you don’t waste a full bar of skills and traitline on a mesmer to accomplish the same effect.

And once again, you don’t portal play in a duel. The op is complaining about being assassinated by a glassy mesmer, not that he got outplayed by a portal strategy.

DeceiverX.8361:

deals damage from any clones or phantasms while enabling an OOC reset while the opponent can’t

Yeah…that’s not how combat works. Firstly, clones and phantasms will be killed in an instant by anyone with a functioning head on their shoulders. Secondly, your illusions keep you in combat just the same as if you were smacking them personally.

DeceiverX.8361:

stops single-target/targeting, and gains lots of boons and can stack protection and regen.

Sure, but what is this accomplishing? You just wasted your entire skillset to get this long stealth, there’s no followup that’s coming from it. Any possible followup is easy to predict and counter.

DeceiverX.8361:

In WvW stealth is king for most classes with access to it despite it not being the case in sPvP due to the simple fact a stealthed target can’t cap or decap. As it stands currently, mesmers have some of the most powerful and useful stealthing abilities and synergy in the entirety of WvW.

This…is only marginally true. Having the capability to stealth is important in WvW because it allows you to survive and escape situations that would otherwise be deadly. However, it’s far from being the 1-button-win that you’re insinuating it is. Many classes have very potent anti-stealth tools these days, and that means that just hitting stealth isn’t good enough to keep yourself alive.

DeceiverX.8361:

I understand you’re a very reputable mesmer, but I’m sorry, a large majority of top-tier roaming and guild groups will definitively state that the claim of a stealthed mesmer is a useless one is a gross oversimplification of the format and the class’s capabilities in WvW.

Once again, you’re just blurring points and being incredibly disambiguous. If you’re talking about roaming and guild groups, then you have a thief or smoke blasts to stealth the mesmer, not a PU mesmer wasting all their cooldowns. It sounds to me like you have a problem with stealth and a problem with the raw utility that mesmer offers, but your complaints are 110% off topic with respect to this thread, which is complaining about PU.

The reason why stealth on the mesmer is good to begin with is because of PU. Don’t use PU and mesmer stealth is honestly pretty terrible. I have more issues with the trait being random boon application making reliable counterplay nigh impossible, which is how one beats a stealthed thief, which given practice, isn’t hard. I disagree that PU is overpowered in duration but instead the boon access being random, which is something the OP wants buffed. I simply countered your statement which stated that a stealthed mesmer is a useless one. I don’t see how that’s off topic nor incorrect, because everything I said is true and in direct response to your comment. What the OP said prior is irrelevant if you make assumptions about context and then make blanket statements about those assumptions.

For resurrecting, F4 for invuln if you’re getting bombed. Otherwise it’s a safe, hidden res. This is a big deal in skirmishes and it happens very often in WvW. It’s the safest ressing strategy possible, since PU/mesmer stealth is strictly superior to that of what the thief is able to do due to its defensive superiority.

Re-read the OP. Nowhere does he mention dueling, or even being bursted. He actually says he plays mesmer in a later post, and again, does not mention dueling. There is a lot of damage, and relative safety in that damage in WvW. While not true in sPvP, the mesmer’s innate burst damage coming from a MoP shatter defensive-trait PU build often exceeds the 30-40k margin within two or three seconds. This is powerful regardless of context, and a lot of WvW guilds are running midline chronomancer compositions due to the burst and sustain the class offers from range with bonus stealth for handling periphery.

I do know how combat works. However if you disengage and your phantasm applies a condition post-cleanse, you kill it off with leaving range or shattering it, and OOC while the opponent keeps a condition, letting you get the instant-out-of-range OOC enabled by the clone/phantasm while the opponent has to wait for condition and opponent-leaving timeout, letting the mesmer get an OOC advantage from a stealth disengage.

Portal play doesn’t hinge on SR when MI provides sufficient stealth duration for a mesmer to perform Portal → MI → Blink → Portal and let its following group handle the engage for the mesmer to re-position with attention off of it when it leaves stealth.

Arguing there’s no follow-through is weak isn’t true, and arguing that it’s predictable is also not true. Like a thief, a mesmer can leave stealth early and attack, or keep waiting. You just admitted stealth is a great way to reset cooldowns. That gives the mesmer the ability to re-engage at peak strength. The mesmer has more options for follow-though, however, in that it can use phantasms and clones to attack and enable without leaving stealth, making the follow-through trickier to predict than any other class with stealth access.

I don’t believe stealth is a free win button. It’s much more intricate, as are the mechanics of the mesmer as a whole. I disagreed with your statement saying that a stealthed mesmer is useless and that I firmly believe stealth is a very strong mechanic as a whole. PU pushes this over the edge via its boon randomness, but that’s not what I posted about.

DeceiverX.8361:

Fay.2357:

DeceiverX.8361:

It gets a free reset on its important cooldowns/shatters uninterrupted,

I’ll give you this one, sitting in stealth is a great way to get cooldowns back.

DeceiverX.8361:

resurrect downed players

The moment a player is getting resurrected, the stealthed mesmer has committed suicide. Their location and current action has now been pinpointed, and they should be revealed and killed.

Additionally, the OP is obviously talking about a dueling situation, not a group fight. His ridiculous claims about assassination potential from a glassy mantra mesmer are clearly not functional in a group fight.

DeceiverX.8361:

enable portal play

You do this with shadow refuge, you don’t waste a full bar of skills and traitline on a mesmer to accomplish the same effect.

And once again, you don’t portal play in a duel. The op is complaining about being assassinated by a glassy mesmer, not that he got outplayed by a portal strategy.

DeceiverX.8361:

deals damage from any clones or phantasms while enabling an OOC reset while the opponent can’t

Yeah…that’s not how combat works. Firstly, clones and phantasms will be killed in an instant by anyone with a functioning head on their shoulders. Secondly, your illusions keep you in combat just the same as if you were smacking them personally.

DeceiverX.8361:

stops single-target/targeting, and gains lots of boons and can stack protection and regen.

Sure, but what is this accomplishing? You just wasted your entire skillset to get this long stealth, there’s no followup that’s coming from it. Any possible followup is easy to predict and counter.

DeceiverX.8361:

In WvW stealth is king for most classes with access to it despite it not being the case in sPvP due to the simple fact a stealthed target can’t cap or decap. As it stands currently, mesmers have some of the most powerful and useful stealthing abilities and synergy in the entirety of WvW.

This…is only marginally true. Having the capability to stealth is important in WvW because it allows you to survive and escape situations that would otherwise be deadly. However, it’s far from being the 1-button-win that you’re insinuating it is. Many classes have very potent anti-stealth tools these days, and that means that just hitting stealth isn’t good enough to keep yourself alive.

DeceiverX.8361:

I understand you’re a very reputable mesmer, but I’m sorry, a large majority of top-tier roaming and guild groups will definitively state that the claim of a stealthed mesmer is a useless one is a gross oversimplification of the format and the class’s capabilities in WvW.

Once again, you’re just blurring points and being incredibly disambiguous. If you’re talking about roaming and guild groups, then you have a thief or smoke blasts to stealth the mesmer, not a PU mesmer wasting all their cooldowns. It sounds to me like you have a problem with stealth and a problem with the raw utility that mesmer offers, but your complaints are 110% off topic with respect to this thread, which is complaining about PU.

The reason why stealth on the mesmer is good to begin with is because of PU. Don’t use PU and mesmer stealth is honestly pretty terrible. I have more issues with the trait being random boon application making reliable counterplay nigh impossible, which is how one beats a stealthed thief, which given practice, isn’t hard. I disagree that PU is overpowered in duration but instead the boon access being random, which is something the OP wants buffed. I simply countered your statement which stated that a stealthed mesmer is a useless one. I don’t see how that’s off topic nor incorrect, because everything I said is true and in direct response to your comment. What the OP said prior is irrelevant if you make assumptions about context and then make blanket statements about those assumptions.

For resurrecting, F4 for invuln if you’re getting bombed. Otherwise it’s a safe, hidden res. This is a big deal in skirmishes and it happens very often in WvW. It’s the safest ressing strategy possible, since PU/mesmer stealth is strictly superior to that of what the thief is able to do due to its defensive superiority.

Re-read the OP. Nowhere does he mention dueling, or even being bursted. He actually says he plays mesmer in a later post, and again, does not mention dueling. There is a lot of damage, and relative safety in that damage in WvW. While not true in sPvP, the mesmer’s innate burst damage coming from a MoP shatter defensive-trait PU build often exceeds the 30-40k margin within two or three seconds. This is powerful regardless of context, and a lot of WvW guilds are running midline chronomancer compositions due to the burst and sustain the class offers from range with bonus stealth for handling periphery.

I do know how combat works. However if you disengage and your phantasm applies a condition post-cleanse, you kill it off with leaving range or shattering it, and OOC while the opponent keeps a condition, letting you get the instant-out-of-range OOC enabled by the clone/phantasm while the opponent has to wait for condition and opponent-leaving timeout, letting the mesmer get an OOC advantage from a stealth disengage.

Portal play doesn’t hinge on SR when MI provides sufficient stealth duration for a mesmer to perform Portal -> MI -> Blink -> Portal and let its following group handle the engage for the mesmer to re-position with attention off of it when it leaves stealth.

Arguing there’s no follow-through is weak isn’t true, and arguing that it’s predictable is also not true. Like a thief, a mesmer can leave stealth early and attack, or keep waiting. You just admitted stealth is a great way to reset cooldowns. That gives the mesmer the ability to re-engage at peak strength. The mesmer has more options for follow-though, however, in that it can use phantasms and clones to attack and enable without leaving stealth, making the follow-through trickier to predict than any other class with stealth access.

I don’t believe stealth is a free win button. It’s much more intricate, as are the mechanics of the mesmer as a whole. I disagreed with your statement saying that a stealthed mesmer is useless and that I firmly believe stealth is a very strong mechanic as a whole. PU pushes this over the edge via its boon randomness, but that’s not what I posted about.

While most of what you said is at least true given proper context, I’d love to see you try to back up your ‘30-40k within 2 to 3 seconds’ statement. This is so divorced from reality it’s not even funny.

In WvW? Not at all. I don’t have a mesmer geared for it, but I know of several mesmers who I’ve dueled extensively on my reaper who can 100-0 me through shroud and all health in one combo. Not uncommon to see shatters well above 5k per clone.

DeceiverX.8361:

In WvW? Not at all. I don’t have a mesmer geared for it, but I know of several mesmers who I’ve dueled extensively on my reaper who can 100-0 me through shroud and all health in one combo. Not uncommon to see shatters well above 5k per clone.

Ok, let’s do some math.

Necro without a drop of toughness in full ascended gear: 967 armor

Mesmer in full ascended berserker gear:
2556 power total without might
1059 ferocity: 70.6 critical damage: 220.6% critical damage modifier

Mind wrack skill coefficient for a 4 clone shatter: 3.08
Mirror blade coefficient per hit: .7
Mind stab coefficient: 1.0
Mantra of pain: scales really oddly, I’ll assume 2.5k per cast as a reasonable amount.

I’ll generously assume that the Mesmer has 10 stacks of might for this entire combo. The reality will be lower.

10 might brings total power up to 2856 power.

Average weapon damage is 1000.

Ok, now we can calculate things! I’m assuming 80% crit rate since you’ll have fury for a good amount of this combo.

Damage = skill coefficient * power * weapon damage * other modifiers / armor

Mind wrack

9096 base damage

Modifiers: 1.3 mental torment, 1.1 scholar, 1.9648 critical

25556 total damage

Mirror Blade

2067 base damage

Modifiers: Hits twice, 1.1 scholar, 1.9648 critical

8934 total damage

Mind stab

2953 base damage

Modifiers: 1.1 scholar, 1.9648 critical

6382 damage

Power spike

2500 damage

Total

43372 damage

Now let’s apply reality to this math:

Modifications for Reality

• 10 might for the entire combo won’t happen.
  • Damage modifier: .947
• 80% crit rate is a too high. More realistically you’ll have 60% due to no access to fury in a defensive trait spec
  • Damage modifier: .877
• Scholar 1.1 bonus is unlikely to actually persist for most bursts
  • Damage modifier: .909
• Using mirror images to facilitate instant 4-clone burst is almost unheard of and generally a bad idea. Bursts will contain the 1 mirror blade clone instead
  • Mind wrack total damage modifier: -7099

Total Realistic Burst: 27384 damage.

Conclusion
So to your credit, it’s possible for an absolutely flawlessly executed burst combo made by a Mesmer that is at the very extreme of glass cannon to approach 30k damage. However, it will be very rare to actually see this occur for several reasons:

• Most roamers run with a substantial amount of toughness, drastically lowering this burst
  • Just adding 300 toughness to the enemy will drop this burst to 75% of the calculated value, or 20900 damage
• Most mesmers don’t run with a build as hilariously glassy such as the one I’ve done calculations based off of
  • With this build, you could easily be killed by the little spinny charge on reaper followed by a couple of autoattacks
  • The high damage output is more than compensated by dying if anyone so much as sneezes on you
• This burst relies on starting with a cc, causing many passive cc traits to completely stop the entire burst before it even begins

So if you’re fighting a target golem, you’ll certainly be able to do damage on the scale of what you’ve claimed. Fighting your standard WvW roamer, however, is an entirely different situation and makes your claim entirely invalid.

You neglect 8 to 12% bonus damage from food likely offesetting the entirety of might gain.

As far as glassy goes, I haven’t seen a roaming player run a toughness build except for dire condi specs, but nothing bursts them because the build is just overpowered on defenses in general. The damage is so high in WvW that in most cases defensive stats are a waste in anything except group play, or on a condi build.

Berserker isn’t really that “hilariously glassy”. It’s kind of the status quo on roaming builds, just saying. Mesmer medium health pool and lots of invulns compared to most other classes keeps the class pretty resilient in terms of incoming damage so long as it’s played well. Death’s charge also has a very high coefficient if the attacks land, and its final attack also has a fairly high coefficient. But then again, a dodge roll negates the whole thing, and if you get jumped by a necro open-field, there are L2P issues there.

Most good mesmers I’ve seen maintain scholar runes bonuses, or can engage from relative safety for the gank with them via stealth/ranged advantage/blur/blink. There’s one particularly good one I know of in my current tier on an enemy server (who does happen to run full berserker gear and is one of the bases for my discussion) who repeatedly wins 1v5+ through good timing of defensive skills and really good positioning. I dueled him for around four hours one day and didn’t win a match unless he dropped Chaos and if I managed to fake him out for my own, predictable, and easily-negated 35k burst.

Add in fire/air sigils for another 3-4k expected, btw.

DeceiverX.8361:

You neglect 8 to 12% bonus damage from food likely offesetting the entirety of might gain.

As far as glassy goes, I haven’t seen a roaming player run a toughness build except for dire condi specs, but nothing bursts them because the build is just overpowered on defenses in general. The damage is so high in WvW that in most cases defensive stats are a waste in anything except group play, or on a condi build.

Berserker isn’t really that “hilariously glassy”. It’s kind of the status quo on roaming builds, just saying. Mesmer medium health pool and lots of invulns compared to most other classes keeps the class pretty resilient in terms of incoming damage so long as it’s played well. Death’s charge also has a very high coefficient if the attacks land, and its final attack also has a fairly high coefficient. But then again, a dodge roll negates the whole thing, and if you get jumped by a necro open-field, there are L2P issues there.

Most good mesmers I’ve seen maintain scholar runes bonuses, or can engage from relative safety for the gank with them via stealth/ranged advantage/blur/blink. There’s one particularly good one I know of in my current tier on an enemy server (who does happen to run full berserker gear and is one of the bases for my discussion) who repeatedly wins 1v5+ through good timing of defensive skills and really good positioning. I dueled him for around four hours one day and didn’t win a match unless he dropped Chaos and if I managed to fake him out for my own, predictable, and easily-negated 35k burst.

Add in fire/air sigils for another 3-4k expected, btw.

What does all of this have to do with the OP?

I feel like PU is held back by virtue of being in the chaos tree, which is very weak compared to other offerings for the Mesmer. The best parts about the chaos tree are all things that don’t necessarily synergize the best with invisibility.

Don’t you know? this is hide and seek wars two. There isnt enough stealth in the game as it is

Every now and then I still come back to see what’s up on the mesmer forums, and I see topics like this…

Lol nothing ever changes.

Random moron: “Nerf Mesmers”
Everyone: “Dude…”
Random Moron: “No for real”
Pyro: “Yur dumb, numbers+reasons”
Random Moron: “No you”
Thread derails into discussion by community of better ways to nerf mesmer so it will get stop getting nerfed.

The mesmer forum really is a special place.

Edit: Also the dude talking about defensive stats not being used in roaming and glass being standard made me check the date on the post, thought it was from a year ago or something.

MSFone.3026:

Edit: Also the dude talking about defensive stats not being used in roaming and glass being standard made me check the date on the post, thought it was from a year ago or something.

A year ago everything was dire perplex, mostly on P/D thief. Big reversions back to glass with people having so much innate defense now, though, both due to a combination of not needing to build defensive stats and needing the damage to simply kill people due to the craziness of defenses from elite specs. Particularly scrapper, DH, and Daredevil, with a lot of players also running railgun druid and tons pushing Fresh Air tempest and GF war with double passive defenses. Though DD’s once caught still melt faster than butter.

MSFone.3026:

Every now and then I still come back to see what’s up on the mesmer forums, and I see topics like this…

Lol nothing ever changes.

Random moron: “Nerf Mesmers”
Everyone: “Dude…”
Random Moron: “No for real”
Pyro: “Yur dumb, numbers+reasons”
Random Moron: “No you”
Thread derails into discussion by community of better ways to nerf mesmer so it will get stop getting nerfed.

The mesmer forum really is a special place.

Edit: Also the dude talking about defensive stats not being used in roaming and glass being standard made me check the date on the post, thought it was from a year ago or something.

Yep, I’ve noticed this myself. The mesmer forum seems to be an interesting mix of kitten thieves, intelligent veteran mesmers, newer self-hating mesmers and random people who see all this and troll for lulz. It’s good for entertainment, if nothing else.

I too think PU is OP, they should nerf it hard as no-one should passively (say that word in the most whiney voice you can imagine) stack might in stealth.

So yeah remove the might from it, super nerf =D

PU should never have been buffed and should have stayed what it was pre-specialization, but Chaos/PU isn’t really the issue IMO. It’s the Inspiration traitline that is broken. Either up the ICD on Mender’s Purity or remove the condi removal on Restorative Illusions…

What this entire thread really means is ahem allow me to translate:

We’re sorry we got alacrity taken away from you
We thought we had the upper hand by crying about alacrity and skill use
on the forums and saying things were broken when they were not
and attempting to make sense of things and lie about that which we know nothing

…

We didn’t think it could get worse!
We’re so sorry.
We’d do anything to take it back.
We’d love to deal with your spammy counterparts and elusive tankiness rather than invisible moa morphing condition builds!
We can’t take it any more.

Please pleeeeeeease! …Anet…Give them back alacrity so Viable HoT Chronomancer builds don’t have to resort to becoming Invisible Time-interrupt-Bending Moa Morphing Conditio-mancers.

Is basically what this and EVERY other thread that currently claims Chronomancers still need a…“debuffing” in it’s current state.

Ps: A whole lot of players better hope alacrity stays where it is. I promise sincerely a lot of Chronomancers will not be the same the second time around.

I imagine after being giving next to nothing outside of our raw class mechanic….many players have become more resourceful. Trust and believe if that percentage recharge rate goes up any gratifying amount we will see a considerable flux of more aggressive play styles in Chronomancer.

Likewise how we see a lot more double elite skill use since Alacrity nerf. More so just frequent use of C.S.

Chronomancers will likely become very unforgiving foes in game…should we be givin’ the proper slack in our class. The illusion of being overpowered will look even worse still! Not all players but you might be fighting a lot more talented Chronomancers.

Personally I would rather write PU off and replace it with something else. I understand that mesmers do rely on a bit of invisibility for survival, for a bit of team support with mass invisibility but I think it’s dumb to dedicate a grandmaster trait for such feature, though I don’t think it is OP. How about replacing it with a trait that says “inflict confusion on foes when using glamor skills”….Anyone with me ?

Inflict confusion when using glamour skills… My dream trait from last year. Loved it, hugged it, never wanted to let it go.

PU is not problematic. PU + Chrono is problematic. Core mesmer needs PU to survive. And I like the randomness of PU. I was playing PU when everyone said condi mesmer was not working and utter garbage. Condi rework made PU a lot more dangerous. And Elite spec made PU one of the best traits ever.

As a PU lover I need to ask one question; “How in the holy turtle’s green grass can we hide better than thieves?” Our invis is too much for my taste. It should be less than a thief, more than an engineer/ranger. And being forced to play only with clones bugs me. We used to have more options.

But I am totaly with you on glamour thing. That rocks.

Except confusion is worthless in pve. So no to that!

redcomyn.4651:

Except confusion is worthless in pve. So no to that!

> Implying that PU isn’t worthless in PvE

While I’d rather have PU than try and bring back the glamour trait, you’re not going to be getting an awful lot of PvE mileage out of either one of them unfortunately.

yeah I forgot to take pve into consideration when making that suggestion…..then let’s make it a DH trait: inflict daze on foes when using a glamour skill, 25s cooldown

Yeah, PU is worthless, also. My point is that I would rather not see suggestions that are bad for pve. Make suggestions that are good for both pve and pvp.

redcomyn.4651:

Yeah, PU is worthless, also. My point is that I would rather not see suggestions that are bad for pve. Make suggestions that are good for both pve and pvp.

Not all traits/mechanics need to be good in both though. The important thing is that there is an appropriate quantity good for either one in various situations, but expecting all ideas and mechanics to be good in both is unrealistic. Just the very basic concept of powerful defense is something that’s very important in both WvW and PvP but totally neglected in PvE, and there’s no real way to reconcile that.

And I would like to add something else also: we’ve got three game modes and three traits to choose per tier

Which makes balancing all that more difficult. No wonder there are so many balance problems, which is why I think separating the balancing is the answer. I think that it would greatly simplify anet’s job.

redcomyn.4651:

Which makes balancing all that more difficult. No wonder there are so many balance problems, which is why I think separating the balancing is the answer. I think that it would greatly simplify anet’s job.

it used to be. wvw and pve were the same balance and spvp was seperate. then they made wvw and spvp balance the same = warrior bacame unkillable in wvw, mesmers became veilbots in wvw, thieves 1 shot everyone in wvw, rangers were still useless in wvw, Gwen meta was the only way to play in wvw and perma interrupts, perma immob and pretty much the warrior only meta began.

yes wvw has to be seperate from spvp and also pve balance. wvw mesmers/chronos need different things balanced than the spvp mes/chronos…. we shall see how many years until anet realizes that…