Guild Wars 2

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nearlight.3064:

Based on this and your other thread Angel, I’d say you’re the PU condi mesmer WvW roaming poster child.

Still I think malicious sorcery is pretty good where it stands. The 15% attack speed increase is amazing fro getting stomps and the like, and is an offensive condition option compared to the defensive ineptitude.

I’d say you’re totally wrong, i dont play in WvW, and not use the famous build PU, i play only with scepter (is my favourite weapon for mesmer), and I would say please, if you do not like what you read, do not read it, but do not miss my respect, i am not at all typical child PU.

I just threw ideas for a possible different way of playing with the scepter, and the mesmer condition, especially confusion, i just threw ideas for a possible different way of playing with the scepter, build condition only to use scepter / any weapon, without actually using the staff (the staff is very bored) and please, if you do not like, do not look at the post.

well in your other thread you basically said, “Now that PU is nerfed we have to buff the pledge so we can have more stealth, because withou PU the pledge isn’t good enough”.

That was the reasoning behind my remark, not that it really means anything rude or offensive. It was just a casual observation, no harm intended.

nearlight.3064:

well in your other thread you basically said, “Now that PU is nerfed we have to buff the pledge so we can have more stealth, because withou PU the pledge isn’t good enough”.

That was the reasoning behind my remark, not that it really means anything rude or offensive. It was just a casual observation, no harm intended.

A ok, sorry for my misunderstanding, if it is true, but basically focused to build scepter / torch or sword / torch in pve, I did not mean to WvW, but if this is how you say, and that in WVW abuse, then you better be left as is.

Robert Gee.9246:

Scepter is difficult to balance because of the clone generation on AA. As a mesmer player I’d like it if the last attack wasn’t so slow too, but increasing the speed of the final attack risks imbalancing mesmer DPS by increasing clone generation speed.

In PvE Mesmer DPS is entirely reliant on 3 Phants, so bringing out Clones is a DPS loss (and the primary reason Sceptre is not used in PvE). Even if it weren’t Mind Wrack is the only Shatter that deals damage (Mesmer Condi is useless in PvE because of the conditions we deal) on a 10s CD, any old build can churn out 3 Illusions in that time. Ether Clone adds nothing.

Chronomancy shouldn’t factor in here because it’s an Elite spec, this is a base Mesmer problem.

In PvP DPS is completely meaningless, it’s all about burst; and Sceptre again is completely irrelevant. There’s zero builds that rely on Ether Clone for illusion generation, even the old Mantra build that doesn’t use DE ignores the Sceptre.

.

Most importantly can the “bug” where Ether Bolt will not progress to the next skill in the chain until the previous Ether Bolt projectile has hit the target/disappeared be fixed? It makes Sceptre’s rate of fire much, much lower than it should be at range.

Embolism.8106:

In PvE Mesmer DPS is entirely reliant on 3 Phants, so bringing out Clones is a DPS loss (and the primary reason Sceptre is not used in PvE).

But then we have a much deeper problem at hand already and I’d prefer the devs to work on that.

If DPS via Phantasms is intended, then it should be the same in PvP, too.

Carighan.6758:

Embolism.8106:

In PvE Mesmer DPS is entirely reliant on 3 Phants, so bringing out Clones is a DPS loss (and the primary reason Sceptre is not used in PvE).

But then we have a much deeper problem at hand already and I’d prefer the devs to work on that.

If DPS via Phantasms is intended, then it should be the same in PvP, too.

Yes but even if it weren’t, Shatter DPS is limited by Shatter CD, not Illusion generation. So the non-issue with Ether Clone and DPS stands.

Embolism.8106:

Most importantly can the “bug” where Ether Bolt will not progress to the next skill in the chain until the previous Ether Bolt projectile has hit the target/disappeared be fixed? It makes Sceptre’s rate of fire much, much lower than it should be at range.

Waaaaait….I just tested it now in HotM. I was able to do the first 2 AA attacks without a target and then I target a golem for the 3rd. Ether clone hits it and summons a clone. I watch the skill chain animation progress once I swing my scepter. I can see that autoattacking in melee range cause the skill chain to go faster, yes, but I’m confused what this “bug” is. :S

Phloww.1048:

Embolism.8106:

Most importantly can the “bug” where Ether Bolt will not progress to the next skill in the chain until the previous Ether Bolt projectile has hit the target/disappeared be fixed? It makes Sceptre’s rate of fire much, much lower than it should be at range.

Waaaaait….I just tested it now in HotM. I was able to do the first 2 AA attacks without a target and then I target a golem for the 3rd. Ether clone hits it and summons a clone. I watch the skill chain animation progress once I swing my scepter. I can see that autoattacking in melee range cause the skill chain to go faster, yes, but I’m confused what this “bug” is. :S

When you cast Ether Bolt, after the cast time is finished it won’t flip into Ether Blast until Ether Bolt’s projectile has disappeared, i.e. until it reaches its maximum range or hits a target.

This means the actual cast time + “aftercast” of Ether Bolt (and Blast and Clone) is longer the further away you are from your target. In melee range when the projectile doesn’t get created at all, the aftercast doesn’t exist so the rate of fire of the entire chain is much faster. But as soon as you have even a tiny bit of range, enough so the projectile is created, the rate of fire plummets.

Fix this, and all problems with Ether Bolt’s rate of fire disappears. It really isn’t slow at all (and it seems Rob might not be aware of this issue, hence why I keep bringing it up in hopes he’ll see it), it’s just plagued with a very weird bug that I believe is to accomodate Ether Clone.

If it can’t be fixed because of Ether Clone, I’d much, much rather Ether Clone be completely axed. For three years it has held the Sceptre back, please no more.

Embolism.8106:

When you cast Ether Bolt, after the cast time is finished it won’t flip into Ether Blast until Ether Bolt’s projectile has disappeared, i.e. until it reaches its maximum range or hits a target.

This means the actual cast time + “aftercast” of Ether Bolt (and Blast and Clone) is longer the further away you are from your target. In melee range when the projectile doesn’t get created at all, the aftercast doesn’t exist so the rate of fire of the entire chain is much faster. But as soon as you have even a tiny bit of range, enough so the projectile is created, the rate of fire plummets.

Fix this, and all problems with Ether Bolt’s rate of fire disappears. It really isn’t slow at all (and it seems Rob might not be aware of this issue, hence why I keep bringing it up in hopes he’ll see it), it’s just plagued with a very weird bug that I believe is to accomodate Ether Clone.

If it can’t be fixed because of Ether Clone, I’d much, much rather Ether Clone be completely axed. For three years it has held the Sceptre back, please no more.

Oooh, you’re talking about the projectile velocity of Ether Bolt and distance upon contact or until bolt is gone. I misunderstood and thought you’re talking about the autoattack skill chain not working when you use it. My bad. >_<

Sadly the best counter to a scepter using mesmer is indeed staying ranged. It’s an obvious bug that really should have your priority Robert, since it’s holding the weapon and several builds back a lot.

As far as the dps argument goes: it just doesn’t hold compared to other classes. If you talk about bursts you got a fair point, but not in dps (sustain). Over a 30 second fight a mesmer won’t get close to an ele for example not even with the shatter bursts. That being said: the bursts coming from shatters are massive and can be an issue if we can have full shatters more often, which would happen with faster clone creation. What people forget is that shatters ain’t just about dps, but you can create havoc with them as well as a relative long invulnerability. For that reason alone speeding scepter more up then it is, would be a balance issue. Key here is: I’m talking about a correctly working scepter with the creation speed in melee range. Speeding that up would become a nightmare.

Request: So please Robert, can you take a deep look into it and fix the scepter so that staying ranged isn’t punishing it? Just make the hit instant or increase the velocity of the projectile with 100% so that range ain’t a counter anymore. Another option would be to simply continue the cycle instead of waiting for the first projectile to hit/get out of range. It shouldn’t be a hard fix and would sure help the scepter a lot.

Besides that big QoL change: The scepter could do with some more potency in conditions just like other classes got more potency on their scepters. The clones are nice, but for 90% of the situations won’t do a lot of good since they spawn in melee range and thus are cleaved instantly instead of being shatter food. Add more torment (2 stacks/hit instead of 1 to bring it in line with necro/rev?) or confusion to it (to match the traitline where scepter is a gm in).

AlphatheWhite.9351:

Math to the rescue!

Assuming:
1. This Meta build: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vhAQNAscRnknBtfitqBmfCUrhFWjiMBCggrOZb2oFNLmuqD-ThRBABXt/o8DP9B5dKAA4JAQp6PmpEMAwBwv9tv/G48zP/8zPvf/93f/93yAoPGA-e
2. Permanent 25 stacks of vulnerability on the target
3. Permanent 25 stacks of might
4. Night time
5. Always over 90% health
6. 100% fury uptime (no dueling, so it’s not easy)
7. You manage to get Compounding Power full bonus on Mind Wrack (probably not feasible)
8. You manage to do a 3-illusion shatter every. single. time.
9. 100% alacrity uptime.

In short, assuming essentially perfect conditions for shattering.

The potential damage of a single Mind Wrack = 16,690 damage.
Without alacrity, 16,690/10.5 = 1,589 dps.
With alacrity, at the experimentally-verified effective cdr of 33.3%, 16,690/7 = 2384 dps.

Robert, this is pitiful.
By comparison, an elementalist spamming lava fonts with alacrity in the same conditions deals around 14,500 dps, and that’s before the target falls below 50% health!
In order to match that same dps, Mind Wrack would need a base cooldown of 2 seconds, and also be able to generate 3 illusions in those 2 seconds!

Given that using Scepter to generate those extra clones would cut down your dps even further because you’re not using Phantasms (or other attacks, lol), your worry that the clone generation of the scepter could be a problem with increasing scepter attack speed just doesn’t line up with the math.

But just in case you aren’t convinced based on the already-weak dps of shatters,
Consider the difference in dps between constant 3-illusion and constant 2-illusion shatters.
That is, assuming we can get 2-illusion shatters every time MW is on cooldown already, what is the dps increase if scepter suddenly made it possible to always get 3?

Dmg(2 illusions) = 13,464
13,464/7 = 1923
2384 – 1923 = 461

So the difference in dps between shattering 2 illusions and shattering 3 off cooldown in perfect PVE conditions is 461 dps.
Be still, my beating heart.

I’m sorry Robert, but your logic doesn’t hold up, because shatters are just not good dps, and unless you severely redesign the system, they never will be.

Ok, so…I’m going to assume you’re talking 100% about PvE DPS for a number of reasons, but mostly because you are (in terms of calculating DPS) assuming that the target is literally standing in lava font for the entire duration every time. No player would do that unless heavily cced/immob/etc., which a staff ele is not going to manage. Ok, so that’s established, we’re talking ONLY about PvE.

1. Scepter is a primarily condi weapon (yes, the attacks scale well with power, but it is still primarily condi-based), so it really doesn’t apply to the shatter point you’re making.

2. Are you talking about open world PvE or dungeons/fractals? If you’re talking dungeons/fractals, uh…that’s not the meta. The meta would be more like this which is a sustained DPS build using phantasms. If you’re talking about open world, single player dps largely doesn’t matter. For bosses/farming, there are tons of people and for something like map completion you’re rarely going to need very high damage to succeed.

3. Regardless of whether you are talking dungeon or open world, shatter builds have NEVER been the way to go for PvE DPS, because they are BURST-focused rather than sustained damage-focused. You want sustained damage in PvE on a mesmer? Run phantasms. You want to talk about burst? Tell me the next time you fight a staff ele who hits you for 10k+ with an instant-cast and (if well positioned) nearly instant-hit skill. No staff ele will BURST you for that much (hit you for that much at once). And no, you standing in meteor shower and getting hit 5 times by it doesn’t count.

4. You can argue that this is a problem, but mesmer has never been PvE-focused, whether in GW2 or GW1. The best mesmer builds for PvE (read: phantasm builds) still suffer compared to other builds (ele staff, gs warrior, etc.) largely because of how quickly your phantasms die. Mesmer has always been more player fights oriented, and actually, yes, they have a very strong place in organized WvW fights. Many, if not most, fights-oriented guilds bring at least 1-2 mesmers for utility, kill group dps, and the dreaded moa.

The overarching problem here is that you’re trying to make an argument about sustained DPS by comparing a mechanic that wasn’t designed for it (shatters) to those that were (near-constant AoE). Is ele damage incredibly high? Yes. Should mesmer sustain be buffed? Possibly. But shatters are not what should be buffed for that (neither is scepter, for that matter), and talking about shatters in that regard doesn’t help your point at all.

Robert Gee.9246:

Azure.8670:

Dont expect any word on scepter until a few months after HoT. due to the amount of clones scepter produces, pretty sure the devs are keeping a close eye on chronomancer to see what crazy builds people come up with. Scepter may become much more popular than it is

Scepter is difficult to balance because of the clone generation on AA. As a mesmer player I’d like it if the last attack wasn’t so slow too, but increasing the speed of the final attack risks imbalancing mesmer DPS by increasing clone generation speed.

Leaving the issue of Clones still replacing Phantasms aside:

There are actually two quite simple ways to deal with the Scepter AA.

1. Remove the projectiles and make it work like Necro Scepter

I’m aware that you guys are very careful with those kind of skills. You just mentioned it in another thread. But it would solve two issues at once: The AA would actually progress without projectiles just getting ‘lost’ on their way to the target and the speed bonus on Malicious Sorcery would also work much better. Also no more unwanted Clones produced by reflection.

2. Remove the Clone generation from AA. Add a second Clone to Sc#2.

This could result in some interesting gameplay and should be quite easy too balance. Wouldn’t solve the Malicious Sorcery issue but also no more Clones by reflection.

Wouldn’t be too sexy for condition Phantasm builds as long as Phantasms still are replaced by Clones. But I personally would rather have it this way. Scepter favours shatter builds anyway.

Dump the clone generation and restore torment stacks back.

Turkadactyl.5308:

Ok, so…I’m going to assume you’re talking 100% about PvE DPS for a number of reasons, but mostly because you are (in terms of calculating DPS) assuming that the target is literally standing in lava font for the entire duration every time. No player would do that unless heavily cced/immob/etc., which a staff ele is not going to manage. Ok, so that’s established, we’re talking ONLY about PvE.

Correct, we are talking about PvE. This is, of course, because dps is irrelevant in PvP, and because there is no attack rate that Robert et al would set the scepter to that would make it a superior way to produce clones for mesmer damage in PvP.

Turkadactyl.5308:

1. Scepter is a primarily condi weapon (yes, the attacks scale well with power, but it is still primarily condi-based), so it really doesn’t apply to the shatter point you’re making.

Since I’m responding to Robert Gee’s point about extra clones dangerously increasing shatter dps, and dps from condis is not a problem in any game mode, especially not PvE (where dps actually matters), then it does apply.

Turkadactyl.5308:

2. Are you talking about open world PvE or dungeons/fractals? If you’re talking dungeons/fractals, uh…that’s not the meta. The meta would be more like this which is a sustained DPS build using phantasms. If you’re talking about open world, single player dps largely doesn’t matter. For bosses/farming, there are tons of people and for something like map completion you’re rarely going to need very high damage to succeed.

Dude, that’s my point!
Robert is talking about dps from shatters as holding scepter back, and I’m giving math to show that dps from shatters is so terrible that it’s not a good reason to hold anything back!

Turkadactyl.5308:

3. Regardless of whether you are talking dungeon or open world, shatter builds have NEVER been the way to go for PvE DPS, because they are BURST-focused rather than sustained damage-focused. You want sustained damage in PvE on a mesmer? Run phantasms. You want to talk about burst? Tell me the next time you fight a staff ele who hits you for 10k+ with an instant-cast and (if well positioned) nearly instant-hit skill. No staff ele will BURST you for that much (hit you for that much at once). And no, you standing in meteor shower and getting hit 5 times by it doesn’t count.

Seriously, look at my last point.
Did you even read what I was responding to? He’s talking about shatter dps as if that’s even a thing, and all I’m doing is proving that it’s not.

Turkadactyl.5308:

4. You can argue that this is a problem, but mesmer has never been PvE-focused, whether in GW2 or GW1. The best mesmer builds for PvE (read: phantasm builds) still suffer compared to other builds (ele staff, gs warrior, etc.) largely because of how quickly your phantasms die. Mesmer has always been more player fights oriented, and actually, yes, they have a very strong place in organized WvW fights. Many, if not most, fights-oriented guilds bring at least 1-2 mesmers for utility, kill group dps, and the dreaded moa.

Just because something has not been true, does not mean that it should not be true.
No class should be left behind in PvE.
In fact, I tend to refer to the attitude that mesmers shouldn’t be viable in PvE as elitist bullkitten.
It’s the most worthless claptrap that you could bring to the discussion, because 90%+ of the content produced in Guild Wars 2 is PvE content, not PvP.
I have convinced many friends and family to come play the game, and exactly 0 of them came because of the PvP. I didn’t start the game because of the PvP, and I know of very few people who did. And locking out the most fun class from PvE success is total bullkitten.

Turkadactyl.5308:

The overarching problem here is that you’re trying to make an argument about sustained DPS by comparing a mechanic that wasn’t designed for it (shatters) to those that were (near-constant AoE). Is ele damage incredibly high? Yes. Should mesmer sustain be buffed? Possibly. But shatters are not what should be buffed for that (neither is scepter, for that matter), and talking about shatters in that regard doesn’t help your point at all.

No, the overarching problem here is that you didn’t pay any attention to what I was responding to.
Robert Gee said that shatter dps is a reason not to buff scepter AA, and I provided math to show that he is wrong.

AlphatheWhite.9351:

snip

I paid attention to exactly what you said, and what Robert Gee said. Nowhere in his post does he explicitly mention shatter (as opposed to general) DPS, and as others have pointed out, even if you infer that it’s in regards to BURST, not damage over time, which is what you ended up comparing to. If you think about in terms of general DPS (at least for a condi build), a faster scepter AA also leads to a DPS boost (assuming your clones are not surviving perfectly) because more clones = more torment (the actual attack doesn’t do basically anything for damage from them, but it DOES apply the torment stack). I’m under the assumption that THAT is what Robert is referring to, and NOT shatter damage necessarily because as folks have noted shatter DPS (as opposed to burst) is limited by cooldowns.

Keep in mind that I’m not saying at all that mesmer shouldn’t be viable in PvE (it is very viable in PvE), but rather than that isn’t the focus of the class and that shatter skills (and therefore builds) in particular aren’t oriented towards sustained DPS. Thief is also not very PvE-oriented, but both classes are viable with appropriate builds. Mesmer has options outside of shatter builds for that. Now, if I’m wrong about what Robert is concerned about (and it’s certainly possible), then my post probably misses the mark, but he (at least in this thread) did not specify shatter damage.

It is not very viable in PvE. It is a glorified portal bot for speed clears (the mesmer doesn’t even fight, he just runs portal to the next location) and come HoT all you will do is a gimmick quickness/alacrity sharing build that will do even less DPS than the current meta build (which is horrendous DPS already).

Thief is plenty PvE oriented, it has one of the highest single target damage builds, has the best stealth skips/stealth rezzing and the highest blind uptime of all classes along with being the best interrupt class thanks to head shot.

Turkadactyl.5308:

I paid attention to exactly what you said, and what Robert Gee said. Nowhere in his post does he explicitly mention shatter (as opposed to general) DPS, and as others have pointed out, even if you infer that it’s in regards to BURST, not damage over time, which is what you ended up comparing to. If you think about in terms of general DPS (at least for a condi build), a faster scepter AA also leads to a DPS boost (assuming your clones are not surviving perfectly) because more clones = more torment (the actual attack doesn’t do basically anything for damage from them, but it DOES apply the torment stack). I’m under the assumption that THAT is what Robert is referring to, and NOT shatter damage necessarily because as folks have noted shatter DPS (as opposed to burst) is limited by cooldowns.

What Robert said (emphasis mine):
“Scepter is difficult to balance because of the clone generation on AA. As a mesmer player I’d like it if the last attack wasn’t so slow too, but increasing the speed of the final attack risks imbalancing mesmer DPS by increasing clone generation speed.”
Taken in pieces:
1. “risks imbalancing mesmer DPS” = making mesmer DPS too high. This is only possible if the increase in DPS is significant, especially given how terrible our DPS is already.
2. “by increasing clone generation speed” = causing the imbalance by getting clones too fast.

There is no other viable interpretation of what he said that does not put words in his mouth, or assume that he misspoke. I do not believe he misspoke, I believe he was wrong.

So what does he mean by clones causing too much dps?

• Clones do no physical damage, so it can’t be that.
• Scepter clones do pitiful condi dps, even in pvp where torment actually means something, so it can’t be condi damage. Edit: I should add, getting clones faster does nothing for the torment dps, it just means you start getting it sooner. Since you’re capped at 3 clones anyway, All you need is a dodge+Mirror Images or dodge+scepter2+scepter auto, and then your clones are merrily swinging away…and no amount of attack speed adjustment on the final scepter AA will make the clones themselves apply any more torment, since they’re based on Ether Bolt.
• Even if they did decent condi damage, condi dps is so easily countered that condi mes has no place in the PVP meta, so it doubly can’t be condi damage.
• The only damage purpose for clones left is shatters.

Now, that leaves us questioning whether he meant condi shatters in PvP. That’s a good question, but the condi Mesmer inviability in PVP already answers that question: condi dps is underpowered, and so it’s not actually a problem to increase condi dps via clones.

So the only remaining option is that he must believe getting more clones could make mesmer physical DPS to high by amping up Mind Wrack. I proved that this is not the case.
If Robert comes back and suggests that he actually was talking about condi, I already have abundant math on that subject as well.

Now, what you said boils down to “Robert must not have been actually talking about DPS, or at least not about clones adding to dps”. But a careful reading of what Robert said, as I did above, shows that’s not what he said.
He didn’t leave room to say that scepter dps might end up too high, he said that clones could cause Mesmer dps to be too high. My math disproves that, showing that shatter DPS is so low that even major increases like cutting mind wrack’s cooldown by a 3rd (via alacrity) isn’t adding much at all on the scale of what classes in Guild Wars 2 tend to be capable of.
Furthermore, I went on to demonstrate that the specific gains from having an extra clone don’t actually amount to much, either!

Lastly, his very statement contradicts your suggestion that he’s talking about the scepter attack dps itself, as he says directly that “as a mesmer player”, he’d like it to attack faster, BUT, that the clones are the reason he’s concerned!

I’m not saying that he meant the attack itself. I never said that, and I never said that he isn’t talking about clones adding to DPS. If you’re going to talk about doing a “careful reading” then you should be carefully reading what other people are saying, too. He was talking about clones adding to DPS, but you’re taking DPS as meaning just shatters, and it’s more than that. What I’m saying is that the condi damage added by having more scepter clones (those that apply torment) more often IN ADDITION to more easily fueling shatters could be the problem, since he’s saying it is hard to balance the AA chain because of clone production. Condi damage isn’t generally underpowered, especially since the condi changes (in PvE, yes, it definitely is, but not in small-scale player fights in WvW in particular). What I am trying to get at is that producing more clones doing more condition stacks may be the problem. Clones in particular die very quickly (basically any hit) even with buffs, and if you increase the attack speed of the auto-attack, you produce more clones, which means more condi output. Faster auto-attack means more active clones more often (assuming, again, that some of your clones are dying to either shatters or damage; if you have no clones ever dying, you’re a pretty special player), which means more condition damage, NOT physical damage (as I said in my last post, the actually ATTACK from the clone is nothing). Each clone on its own doesn’t do a large amount of added dps from the torment, but more active more often means not only that you can more easily fuel shatters, but that you also have a base increase in damage due to more conditions.

At the end of the day, regardless of what he meant, you’re comparing a profession mechanic that is designed for high burst, low sustained dps (shatters) to skills for low burst, high sustained dps (lava font) and trying to make a case around that. Your specific gains were, again, focused on using them for shatters. I’m talking about the benefit (with scepter clones in particular because of their added condi damage) of not only shatters but also having more damaging illusions active more often. Is mesmer damage in PvE situations still lower than an ele? Oh yeah, there really is no doubt there no matter the build. But my point is that you’re not going to get anywhere talking about DPS (sustained) using shatters as your benchmark.

The thing is that I largely agree with you – the scepter AA being buffed would almost certainly NOT cause a problem, but I didn’t assume he was talking about shatters only (since there’s only so many ways to increase that DPS due to cds). I often avoid shatter-oriented builds specifically because of low sustained DPS, and I’m not at all trying to contest THAT point (that shatter DPS in the long run is terrible). Rather, I’m trying to get the point across that talking about bad shatter sustain likely isn’t going to get the point across to the devs, whether Robert was or was not talking about shatters specifically.

@Turkadactyl: You’re making the insane assumption that scepter clones do significant condition dps.

They don’t.

I always thought the proper fix for anything that is slow – add more damage.
Hammers are slow to swing and in most games I play. The balance for this is that they make up for it by hitting harder than a faster weapon.

When it comes to scepter I don’t want to see it changed into a “condi weapon” only. This would be too limiting seeing as we only have 2 1 hand weapons.

It doesn’t need to be faster. The speed can be workable. It’s the damage that’s applied with scepter that feels the issue for me. When I am swinging slow there is no payoff. Clones don’t make up for my slow DPS, and phantasms are destroyed by the clones making my DPS even lower.

What I would like to see happen is that MS be changed to still include the speed increase but also damage increase as well. It would feel more comfortable to have a slow weapon be slow for a reason. Clones are not enough of a reason when the shatter they would be used for ALSO doesn’t make up for the lack of DPS regardless the mode.

@Fay, that’s not what I’m trying to imply, but rather that that may be what is driving the devs’ desire to not buff scepter. They don’t do high damage (you get more out of sharper images than you do from their torment), but when has that stopped ANet?

Before we even talk about increasing Ether Bolt’s RoF or damage or whatever, first we need to know…

.

Is the fluctuating attack rate of Ether Bolt with range fixable?

.

Because as long as this bug exists the players and the Devs cannot be on the same page when we’re discussing Sceptre DPS.

Turkadactyl.5308:

@Fay, that’s not what I’m trying to imply, but rather that that may be what is driving the devs’ desire to not buff scepter. They don’t do high damage (you get more out of sharper images than you do from their torment), but when has that stopped ANet?

So you’re defending Robert against my assertion that he’s wrong in one way, because you think he’s wrong in a totally different way?

I’m not defending him, I’m saying that your point isn’t going to get across by going about it that way. Talking about what I think is driving them is not the same as defending them. I never meant it to come across as defending them.

Turkadactyl.5308:

I’m not defending him, I’m saying that your point isn’t going to get across by going about it that way. Talking about what I think is driving them is not the same as defending them. I never meant it to come across as defending them.

If Math (a.k.a. facts) isn’t going to drive the point home, what will?

Read what I said. The problem isn’t using math, the problem is that it’s like comparing apples and oranges. One mechanic is designed for burst and low sustain, and the other is for high sustain and low burst. A better choice for comparison for shatters would be backstab/heartseeker thieves or something else aimed at high burst. You may well end up with the same result, but then you’re comparing similar mechanics and so the point holds more stock.

Turkadactyl.5308:

Read what I said. The problem isn’t using math, the problem is that it’s like comparing apples and oranges. One mechanic is designed for burst and low sustain, and the other is for high sustain and low burst. A better choice for comparison for shatters would be backstab/heartseeker thieves or something else aimed at high burst. You may well end up with the same result, but then you’re comparing similar mechanics and so the point holds more stock.

If he meant burst, he would have said burst.
He said dps, so I have to assume he meant dps.

Turkadactyl.5308:

Read what I said. The problem isn’t using math, the problem is that it’s like comparing apples and oranges. One mechanic is designed for burst and low sustain, and the other is for high sustain and low burst. A better choice for comparison for shatters would be backstab/heartseeker thieves or something else aimed at high burst. You may well end up with the same result, but then you’re comparing similar mechanics and so the point holds more stock.

Except backstab is a core PvE rotation of thief PvE sustained DPS lol.

PvE thief rotation is CnD>Backstab>Auto till reveal wears off>CnD>Backstab>Repeat.

And it does tons more sustained DPS than any mesmer rotation.

MESMER IS THE ONLY CLASS WHOSE MECHANIC ACTIVELY GIMPS ITS OWN SUSTAINED DPS.

Scepter is difficult to balance because of the clone generation on AA. As a mesmer player I’d like it if the last attack wasn’t so slow too, but increasing the speed of the final attack risks imbalancing mesmer DPS by increasing clone generation speed.

Wouldn’t be better just to take the AA Clone off completely and give us a faster projectile and an extra stack of Torment on AA?

Really, what exactly is Ether Clone achieving currently (or ever)?

.

• It conjures Clones in cleave range.

• It conjures the weakest Clone.

• DE completely outclasses it to the point where it’s effectively meaningless.

• It gives Ether Bolt the bug where its rate of fire plummets with range (speculation but I’m pretty sure this is the cause).

• It replaces Phantasms.

.

Ether Clone is toxic for the Sceptre. Unless the Devs actually have plans for Ether Clone specifically, I say axe it. It does far more harm than good (if any).

So … why not increase the chain from 3 to 5 attacks and increase the kitten attack speed? Or even simpler: In-crease-the-damage?

Really people: there is more to clones and mesmers then just dps. For those that tried the bwe’s for HoT you’ll have noticed pve becomes a notch harder (is it enough? not sure) and raids should be a lot harder for sure. We don’t just got mindwrack to consider here. More clones=more shatter options.

If you calculate our clone generation (@ TS you love math, so go ahead) and use an optimal traited shatter sequence you will see that a quicker clone generation will lead to a shift in that department. Ow and I do mean optimal including HoT (alacrity), so chronomancer, since that’s where we are going afterall and what the devs will be looking at dps wise. If that was just for mindwrack it would be ok, but interrupts (f3) can hurt (powerblock, quickness, bountifull, mistrust and come HoT: slow), confusion ain’t bad (f2) and the dreaded f4 when traited to share with your party can simply be a party lifesaver and thus a gamechanger. Add f5 to that and it would be shatter as soon as you can all the time. i also didn’t take the other shatter effects we can add to them into account (blind + ineptitude or torment)

Yes scepter as I mentioned before needs a buff, more clone creation at close range ain’t the solution for that. Fix the cast time when ranged (which often will be the starting point in pve also) would fix 1 part. Do something with the main output besides that. But really: Don’t take the clones away. Though limited in use they got their place in roaming and even pvp.

What is wrong with your example is that you took a power build and judge it based on that alone. Since shatters can be used for so many variations that’s not enough data to make a statement about something working or not. If you do the math on any possible build it might make sense, but just “another zerk” doesn’t do justice to the condition potential scepter and shatters has. Example: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vhAQNAraWlsnh20YrawBNQtGLCHlZB0ABQ9mOqpKaLMRpGA-TxBBABAcKAmW9nqV+58TAQ69HeWfgaKBDAcAMexL+4BGf8xHf8xb8xHf8xHvUAPK2C-e try to do the same math (incl quickness uptime) with that build, or probably a rampager one would be even higher in dps. Also don’t forget that for balance you can’t just look at pve alone.

HypnoticEyes.2683:

More clones=more shatter options.

While you are technically correct, the current clone production from all sources is already so high that the main limit to shattering are the shatter cooldowns, not the number of clones. You can alreayd easily achieve a full shatter whenever one is of cooldown. I very much doubt that increased attack speed on scepter will have more than a negligible effect on the shatter mechanic.