Guild Wars 2

I’ve tried making shatter condi builds a couple times, but the lack of mobility just made it less fun for me than my current build.

With the doubling of torment stacks on maim the disillusioned, I’m wondering if something like this will be effective enough that I can use the travelers runes which aren’t optimal for a condi build and keep blink as a utility.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fhQQNAW7fl0npMtNqxTNcrNytBdyZcDUHkikySGggB-TFyCABAcBA2b/BA1N4p6PJqEMLlfU8EAk4gAEAABYmzMZWmBDdoDdoDdoNzZOzZOzZWIgFrBA-w

Anyone already running something like this in WvW?

Yes, though I use a slightly different set up for my condi build. It’ll be nice to have a slight buff to it for sure. For reference I use Trav runes and always have blink as a utility, so you should be fine.

Shatter isn’t easy to play in wvw since illusions can be killed before they hit a target, but once you get into the flow of how it works it’s devastating.

Thanks. It’s good to hear there’s someone doing shatter-condi with travelers and blink.

I’ve been playing my current build so long in WvW, that whenever I try something new, I have trouble deciding if my ineffectiveness is just lack of skill and fit with my style or a problem with the build.

It’s the lack of mobility that has always made me give up on condi-shatter previously

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fhQQNAW7flknpRttpxMNcrNitBZyOcBUPkjsySGghB-T1RHABFq+Ta7P4muh7UCCwFBQgnAwRK/CAgAMzZmMLzghO0hO0hO0m5Mn5Mn5MLEwi1A-w

Ill be using this for wvw and 4/4/0/06 for spvp (aoe boon rip > all)

The most anyone can say until the patch is actually released is…maybe. Maybe it won’t be crap afterwards. Maybe it will be, but maybe not. It’s pretty much impossible to judge whether the buff will give it enough pressure to not be horrible as it is now. We’ll just have to wait and see.

If nothing else, it logically can’t manage to be worse, given that at least one damage source will increase. Now, if we could only improve the c/d on Cry of Frustration …

As for build, I’ll probably dust off my 0/4/4/0/6 or 2/4/2/0/6 setups.

Seeking advice because I’m too lazy to do the math/hard to theorycraft for confusion damage anyway, but would torment runes be a better choice than perplexity? It’s much cheaper since last time I bought/sold it, I’m tempted to buy it again before it proves to be useful and everyone’s getting it.

I’d go Tormenting over (current) Perplexity. More duration on Torment from all sources, and extra procs thereof. Not to mention, you can still (if desired) at least crank Confusion Duration via Master of Misdirection Trait.

In my previous tests, I didn’t play condi shatter long enough to understand how the damage really played out in real WvW fights. I started with the assumption that Tormenting or Perplexity would be necessary, but the lack of mobility was too much.

I’m thinking with the build I linked, it would be possible to do a rotation like this:
> Start with Staff
Dodge forward
Phase Retreat
Dodge forward
F3 Shatter (staggered distance for better interrupt chance)
Weapon swap: scepter
Dodge forward
Scepter block (hope for block and clone)
Cast iMage
(Maybe) auto-attack chain (if needed for clone)
F2 shatter (stack confusion)
Confusing images (stack confusion)
Scepter block
If needed use prestige first, otherwise just weapon swap: staff

Without using any cooldowns, it seems like that rotation could produce up to:
24 stacks of torment
17 stacks of confusion
and probably a bit of burning, bleeding, poison and vulnerability

But I have no idea what happens with real players (maybe half of that?)

Still, I’m hopeful that it could be high enough to create real damage and still let me keep using travelers runes

Thanks for the suggestions! Master of misdirection and food duration should be able to boost it up to 73% so I’m contempt about it. I think the trick for condition shatter is not to dish out too many shatters before your opponent use their cleanse, but that is some scary stack number. It’ll be pretty hard to stack confusion though, with shatter confusion usually doesn’t last more than 6s etc.

The question is will it be a dps loss to shatter staff clones like it is now? If not then this could work; you kite with staff and let IE clones cause cleanses and your burst is the shatter.

I think in PvP maim will still be kitten . In wvw maybe running full dire it could have the survivability and pressure to outlast/overwhelm cleanses to land a killing shatter.

The question of torment runes or not is interesting. The whole idea is to condi burst so I don’t see the need for 95% torment duration. Even unbuffed, say you take the 40% and the target has -40%, a full shatter is still 6 stacks for 6 seconds, which is over 6k damage. You could take undead runes this way or something else.

All theory at this point. At any rate I think at best the change will make maim sorta viable. At worst it is still kitten. My bet is it will still suck.

Here is another way of putting it: With this buff will maim be any stronger/better at roaming than standard condi PU?

MSFone.3026:

Here is another way of putting it: With this buff will maim be any stronger/better at roaming than standard condi PU?

I think something to keep in mind is that condie shatter builds will always be condie shatter. This means a build that’s somewhat more fragile, but has higher burst potential as a reward for that fragility. Now, I don’t know if this buff will fulfill that higher burst potential, but the higher fragility is absolutely there.

This means that you need to play it like any other shatter build when roaming. In other words…call up your guardian/thief/whoever buddy and go duo/small group roaming. PU condie will always be superior from a solo roam standpoint because of the defense it has, but the condie shatter has the potential to be fantastic in a small group.

Fay.2357:

MSFone.3026:

Here is another way of putting it: With this buff will maim be any stronger/better at roaming than standard condi PU?

I think something to keep in mind is that condie shatter builds will always be condie shatter. This means a build that’s somewhat more fragile, but has higher burst potential as a reward for that fragility. Now, I don’t know if this buff will fulfill that higher burst potential, but the higher fragility is absolutely there.

This means that you need to play it like any other shatter build when roaming. In other words…call up your guardian/thief/whoever buddy and go duo/small group roaming. PU condie will always be superior from a solo roam standpoint because of the defense it has, but the condie shatter has the potential to be fantastic in a small group.

This makes sense. But then the question is: Why go Maim over traditional shatter for roaming in a small group? I’m pretty sure most people are considering condi shatter as a tanky sort of alternative to standard shatter. Look at the build at the top of the thread: full dire gear. So this is a shatter build you can go full dire with.

It seems to me that in a good group standard shatter will always be stronger than condi shatter, and like you say solo you are just going to be a slow killing shatter that is also slower to die, but I think you’re going to die at least as often as standard shatter nonetheless.

I just don’t get why Anet chose maim of all things to buff. They have some condi vision for mesmers with the scepter AA and maim, but there are so many other things they could work on/give us.

Try to fix that lack of rooting in Scepter+torch/staff with sylvari power
What do you guys think about grasping vines? Should I change it to signet of domination? Or should I forget about rooting and add condition cleanse to free up traits?

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fhUQNArfWl0npRtlpxbOcrNyqBdqlg6s0lgW6LktAA-TFyCABAcEAwS5Hz7Pcp6PS8AA0TfAFnCgxUCSKAImGB-w

Grasping vines work wonders against range opponents or opponents who doesn’t look below them. And 2s to longer immobilize isn’t too much compromised when compare to domination.

NICENIKESHOE.7128:

Try to fix that lack of rooting in Scepter+torch/staff with sylvari power
What do you guys think about grasping vines? Should I change it to signet of domination? Or should I forget about rooting and add condition cleanse to free up traits?

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fhUQNArfWl0npRtlpxbOcrNyqBdqlg6s0lgW6LktAA-TFyCABAcEAwS5Hz7Pcp6PS8AA0TfAFnCgxUCSKAImGB-w

Grasping vines work wonders against range opponents or opponents who doesn’t look below them. And 2s to longer immobilize isn’t too much compromised when compare to domination.

2 years in playing sylvari and had never thought of using that skill. Yeah it could definitely work similar to iLeap immob. Nice!

NICENIKESHOE.7128:

Try to fix that lack of rooting in Scepter+torch/staff with sylvari power
What do you guys think about grasping vines? Should I change it to signet of domination? Or should I forget about rooting and add condition cleanse to free up traits?

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fhUQNArfWl0npRtlpxbOcrNyqBdqlg6s0lgW6LktAA-TFyCABAcEAwS5Hz7Pcp6PS8AA0TfAFnCgxUCSKAImGB-w

Grasping vines work wonders against range opponents or opponents who doesn’t look below them. And 2s to longer immobilize isn’t too much compromised when compare to domination.

Nah, the skill is pretty bad to anyone that isn’t absolutely awful. It’s on a kitten cooldown, so have fun bursting once every 45 seconds I guess. Additionally, the vines can be cleaved down in an instant even by condie classes. It’s just…not good at all.

Fay.2357:

NICENIKESHOE.7128:

Try to fix that lack of rooting in Scepter+torch/staff with sylvari power
What do you guys think about grasping vines? Should I change it to signet of domination? Or should I forget about rooting and add condition cleanse to free up traits?

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fhUQNArfWl0npRtlpxbOcrNyqBdqlg6s0lgW6LktAA-TFyCABAcEAwS5Hz7Pcp6PS8AA0TfAFnCgxUCSKAImGB-w

Grasping vines work wonders against range opponents or opponents who doesn’t look below them. And 2s to longer immobilize isn’t too much compromised when compare to domination.

Nah, the skill is pretty bad to anyone that isn’t absolutely awful. It’s on a kitten cooldown, so have fun bursting once every 45 seconds I guess. Additionally, the vines can be cleaved down in an instant even by condie classes. It’s just…not good at all.

Well, maybe it’s not so good, but might give it a shot anyway.

yeah the main problem I have with that skill is CD, but signet of domination also has 45 seconds CD with 3s stun only. So I’m not entirely sure which one is better. Guess that’s the limitations with Staff/Scepter+torch. I usually try roam with someone who can immobilize so the vine was just something to fill the gap when his immobilize is on CD.

condi shatter had its problems
power shatter is far way better as you can take someone health in 1-2 combos while in condi shatter you are playing dot so you have to play defensively

another problems your illusion dmg get to be cleanse pretty easy so you have to time it right when your enemy used all his cleanse and then shatter. which make you play like pu or any standard condi build
also it doesnt work in zerg play only is 1v1 or 5v5
the torment stacks on smart player is pretty much equal to regular build without maim trait (although thieves will hate that build and can take 15 stacks of torment)

i tried perplexity/torment/krait runes – all are good

I did a little testing of the build I posted in WvW tonight. Not quite that quality of gear, but reasonably close.

I definitely feel like I don’t have the playstyle down yet. I fought a shatter Mesmer who I could get low but never quite take down. I was doing pretty well on an engi who was running with 8 stacks of torment, but got help from friends.

Testing on a camp supervisor, I was able to get 16 stacks of torment but it only lasted for a couple seconds. I would guess with the improvement to maim, I could have had 22 stacks.

Mantra for healing feels weak (even when I’m used to using ether signet). Deceptive evasion seems a bit inconsistent in creating clones (sad that I’ve played the class almost 2 years and haven’t really ever tested this trait much). Do you have to be in combat for the clone to generate? Or have a target and be in some range?

MtD Buff – Try Condition Shattering again – It’s got to work this time right?

I’ll just leave this here…

GET DAT SONG OUTTA MY HEAD
*cough

Anyways DE works as long as you are in combat, and you can generate clones with that even when opponents are in stealth or far away.

Just a change of mind sets a bit, can’t say this is perfect but maybe it’ll make Miam users feel better….

I think everyone knows that mind wrack won’t be the primary damage source in Miam build. Perhaps we should think of it as a sustain pressure source where you use it to bait out opponent’s dodge or cleanse. Particularly in WvW where it is easy for Miam to last 12s, deals 14k damage if left unattended and last through mind wrack CD. Maybe mind wrack is spam-able (not that spam-able but requires less coordination than zerk mind wrack combo) when the mesmer is wielding scepter+torch? Scepter block is also an easy torment that will most likely bait out the cleanse. Then swap to staff and use IE as an alternative source of sustain pressure to bait out any last cleanse/dodge. Then deliver the “actual” burst with cry of frustration, where stuns/immobilize from teammate or yourself will come in real handy.

This is all hypothetical so I can’t say if that rotation will work. Knowing how much cleanse your opponent got is not hard, but opponent dodging or how you survive will be the key in staff/scepter+torch. Alternatively you can run both scepter and sword weapons like fluxit mentioned in the other thread. Then torment shatter will be the main damage source when you’re holding sword.

condi shatter tutorial
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vi-5sY32_cg&list=UUcWnMDLv7r7EikeaBypE8tQ

messiah.1908:

condi shatter tutorial
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vi-5sY32_cg&list=UUcWnMDLv7r7EikeaBypE8tQ

No offense intended, and I appreciate your effort, but I was looking for a video to show maim potentialities (I am curios about incoming maim buff too). Instead, what I got is a reminder why I am not running it… dragging slow fights, low damage and no mobility. No thanks, I think I will stick to IP unless the buff will turn out to be a huge boost to shatter condi.

my point exactly
in real situation you probably wont get the 16 stacks intended

you could see some fight with 10 stacks – so after the update maybe 15 stacks

but player got 1-2 cleanse skills so… you wont get the effect as power shatter ever

messiah.1908:

you wont get the effect as power shatter ever

Perhaps, but that’s an Apples vs. Oranges comparison.

Torment is not only about damage, it’s about control. The whole thing that makes Torment balanced is that you do not absolutely need a cleanse to counter it, you only need to stop moving to cut it’s damage in half. This aspect can not be overlooked!

This is why Torment fits Mesmers very well, and recent changes make it pretty clear that Torment is intended to be the new Confusion for Mesmers; it’s both more balanced from a maximum potential damage point of view, and far more reliable then Confusion for the Mesmer too. (Worst case is 50% damage, not 0% as it is for Confusion.)

Any way you slice it, after this change you will easily be able to put 10+ stacks of Torment on a target, repeatedly and in short succession, thus making cleanses fairly pointless. With 10 stacks on you, you will take easily over 1.7k damage per second if moving, which is over 10k potential damage for the base 6 seconds duration. Unlike MW though, you can apply this with every single one of your 4 shatters as long as you have illusions up.

There is no doubt MtD was rather underwhelming before this change, but with the recent adjustment to 6s duration it actually became kinda “OK”, but simply still not remotely competitive to IP. However, this upcoming buff will boost it’s damage output by 100%! While this will likely not propel Condie Shatter over Power Shatter in popularity, which isn’t and shouldn’t be the goal, it will have a significant impact in the right direction for a viable alternative with a completely different role in group combat.

Again, your goal isn’t and shouldn’t be to out-spike Power Shatter! Your goal is a combined package of added survivability, control, and sustained damage output! Try holding a point with Power Shatter in sPvP against 2 attackers, then compare it to Condie Shatter and you’ll clearly see why it’s an Apples vs. Oranges comparison.

I’m pretty sure we’re going to see a lot of crying INC over this change. ;-)

I think the main difference is that Maim provided 3 shatter damage source as oppose to 1-2 shatter damage source from zerk shatter. It may work if we decide to burst opponent with all shatters but Maim has more flexibly than that. Keep that in mind with scepter block and you can have quite a decent sustain of torment stacks over time. I’m not asking for 10+ torment in one go (though that certainly is an option) but constant 5-6 stacks of torment is already quite painful.

ofc then we need to look at opponent’s familiarity with dodging shatter and managing cleanse. If we did decide not to burst maim in one go then opponent needs to dodge more frequently to avoid accumulating torment. In a way you can probably take it as more control than zerk shatter. Although they can mitigate it with condition cleanse, not many builds can cleanse torment faster than mind wrack application. Unless we’re talking about ele, some ranger builds, cleansing ire warrior, shout guard, SA thieves etc. Maybe Maim soft countered engi? idk really.

As for the root problem, i run with sword pistol in my build that i posted. Sword for the root and pistol for bleed stacks- with illusionary duelist and sigil of the earth pkus other clones stacking bleed i got up to 14 stacks of bleed on a target last night while wvw roaming. Torment is our main source of damage but we need other tjings like bleed damage and confusion to help kill our target fastrr.

Oh and technically its 4 shatter damage sources since triggerring distortion also applies torment and confus to nearby targets.

Meh distortion is my panic button lol

i play my condi build in tpvp and hot joins
build
0,4,4,2,4
i just spread my staff clones out side the hold point and they do all the dmg with IE
i handle fine 1v3 so my group could easily turn the fight to our favor even if i died at the end after 2 min
the staff with IE can put 10-15 stack of bleed on 2 enemies with bounce combine with burning its about 2k dps

so if i shattered i would had stayed alone easily targeted and probably used stealth…

so build like 0,4,2,2,6 with mtd will have hard time to handle a point in 1v2 if they shattered (or maybe the torment dmg will be so huge it will push the enemies to play defense)
but in 2v2 etc the condi shatter will be able to put nice aoe dmg on a point and maybe this will be the main difference

Windwalker.7421:

messiah.1908:

you wont get the effect as power shatter ever

Perhaps, but that’s an Apples vs. Oranges comparison.

Torment is not only about damage, it’s about control. The whole thing that makes Torment balanced is that you do not absolutely need a cleanse to counter it, you only need to stop moving to cut it’s damage in half. This aspect can not be overlooked!

torment is unti movement skill which start to do dmg after staking above 5 stacks
confusion is unti skill/dodge use which start to do nice dmg above 8-10 stacks

so warrior with shout can turn the tide if he just use 1 skills which give him 8 sec immunity to condi and have 2 skills which cleanse every 20 sec (if i am right)
so in pvp area you wont be any threat to him on 1v1 and he could hold point better then you
thief d/p easily cleanse your conditions
guardian with good aoe will kill your clones and cleanse easily
etc

my point is that
if i manage to put 8 stack of torment without shatter it means my enemy is bad or used all his cleanse so i will win . so 15 stack of torment with no clones wont do any different

the only difference is in 2v2 3v3 where the shatter can do nice aoe dmg on a point but then must go stealth away to regen clones

maybe after the buff IE= mtd but as for now IE >> mtd