Guild Wars 2

This will probably be a fairly divisive topic judging from what my guildmates had to say, but I’d like to know where everyone stands on Prismatic Understanding. Also a really long post, but if you’re not willing to read it I can’t really force you.

I personally think it is fine as is for a few reasons. Way back before several changes, 1 second of extra stealth really didn’t mean much(hell, thieves got that in a minor trait), but the boons were strong since they were all defensive. Then Swiftness and Might got thrown in, making it a lot less reliable kitten seconds of might when you’ve just entered 4 seconds of stealth is kinda…not useful. So adding Might and Swiftness to the mix was(IMO) a nerf. Increasing the duration to 100% was a good decision because now all the Chaos Grandmaster traits actually feel like build defining traits. It is actually a tough decision to pick one of them, which is how it should be for all trait lines. I’d much rather have tough choices to make instead of entire trait lines that are only really worthwhile if you’re going in for one specific trait. I think this is how all GM traits should be, build and playstyle defining, but not inherently more powerful than the others.

I understand a lot of people’s qualms with PU have to do with stealth. Mesmers, stealth, conditions and clones were all things that made for an annoying fight that didn’t require much risk on the mesmer’s part. This strategy was only really viable and common in WvW roaming(which is btw not a gamemode the game is balanced around) and was essentially useless in 2 of the 3 gamemodes(SPvP and PvE). Long duration stealth doesn’t help you kill your opponent, that’s why those mesmers relied on clone condition application. With the nerf to maim, this strategy is a lot less viable, especially now that burning has become king of dmg conditions and mesmers have almost no way to apply it, let alone stack it.

I’ve started using PU in SPvP as sort of an offpoint harasser and sidecapper. I can say from experience that while 100% duration is a lot, I almost never stay in stealth for that long. Staying in stealth for that long just gives your opponent time to regain cds and prepare. I use stealth for re-positioning, which the added duration is great for. If it were reverted to its previous iteration of 1 extra second and random picks from 5 boons, 2 of them being almost useless at that point, I’d probably never consider PU on tier with the other GM traits again. Giving my opponent a chance to recover and coming out of stealth with 2 stacks of might, some swiftness and maybe one of the defensive buffs really doesn’t seem worthy of a GM trait and if I really wanted boons that badly, I’d just go for Bountiful Disillusionment.

Also keep in mind that Anet seems to be moving towards more reveal access for certain classes. Engi’s lock-on, the spoiled guardian trap, ranger shout and WvW’s stealth trap are all good sources of reveal, so please don’t come to this thread just to complain about stealth. I want to hear opinions on Prismatic Understanding on MESMERS, not stealth in general and not cross class comparisons.

PU is really good in WvW roaming. I now feel like a thief, being able to engage and disengage at will.
The old +1 second version was never OP. But because of a whole bunch of crybabies saying that they couldn’t kill a PU condie mesmer, swiftness and might got thrown in.
IMO, the old version w/o swiftness and might is actually at a very good spot.

I agree with pretty much everything you said.

I’ll also add that the reason might and swiftness was added was because it was too defensive and was mainly used in clone death condition builds. They have now gone. It was used in power builds before the nerf too as you could reliably get aegis and protection but seeing as they are less reliable now many don’t take it for the boons but instead for the stealth duration.

It’s also now worth pointing out Mesmer stealth is unique. What do I mean by this? All other forms of stealth as far as I know stack duration. You can have 4 guards blast a smoke field and get 12s of stealth. Get 4 mesmers to use mass invis and you will only get 5s as it doesn’t stack, thus making you stagger stealth. It also bugs out the stealth effect which is annoying. <- incorrect

In my opinion the problem isn’t stealth, the problem is the game modes to a lesser extent and the fact there is at the moment only one semi counter to stealth.

Game modes: SPvP has a lot of stuff to LoS behind, jump around and hide around. Seriously, it’s completely out of whack with the rest of the game which has a lot of open spaces. So a little stealth is very strong there and a lot is over the top. In WvW where there isn’t always something to hide behind a little stealth on a slow class like Mesmer is a bad joke and generally most roamers can catch up the 3-4s gap easily.

No real counter: When someone goes into stealth that’s it usually. You can’t reveal them unless you’re an engineer and AoE and get lucky with a trait. Ranger can put reveal on someone with a shout before they go into stealth. In WvW you have a trap that does reveal stealthed targets if they run over it but it’s got a supply usage and generally the main offenders for stealth (thief) will just run away and come back later.

With guards getting a reveal trap, hopefully there will be other such changes implemented to reveal stealthed targets in order to balance it out more. More classes are also getting access to stealth too and it certainly looks like we’re heading that way. With that said and under those conditions I feel PU stealth duration is fine.

I do however think aegis is very strong and might inappropriate, replace might with troll 1s stab and aegis with 3s vigor could be a possible balance change that would be nice.

Also, veil with 2s stealth is laughably bad, 3s after having to trait it is an insult given its cool down, 4s I can live with though.

Necrotize.2974:

This strategy was only really viable and common in WvW roaming(which is btw not a gamemode the game is balanced around) and was essentially useless in 2 of the 3 gamemodes(SPvP and PvE).

That the balance in this game as a whole is a joke because Anet really only bothers to balance around tPvP (and even fails at that) is hardly a plus point, besides which they are adding stronghold, in which stealth will be as lame and imbalanced as it is in WvW.

Necrotize.2974:

I’ve started using PU in SPvP as sort of an offpoint harasser and sidecapper. I can say from experience that while 100% duration is a lot, I almost never stay in stealth for that long.

Doesn’t matter if you usually come out earlier than the full duration, the issue with having 6 sec /10 sec durations on stealth is it reduces counterplay even further because people have even less idea of when their opponent is going to reappear again / burst them from stealth, it just makes the game even more unskilled than it already is.

Necrotize.2974:

Also keep in mind that Anet seems to be moving towards more reveal access for certain classes. Engi’s lock-on, the spoiled guardian trap, ranger shout and WvW’s stealth trap are all good sources of reveal

No they aren’t good sources of reveal, the ranger shout has the same issue the engy toolbelt skill has, which is it doesn’t fit into most builds, stealth traps are a joke and are only really of any use in situations like trying to kill a d/p thief (and now mesmer) that are trying to “permastealth” inside a keep in WvW, lock on is the best of the bunch, but again it is one class, and only certain builds.

Necrotize.2974:

I want to hear opinions on Prismatic Understanding on MESMERS, not stealth in general

Tough kitten, it is relevant to why making this trait have 100% extra duration is so lame and how weak your argument is about them adding more reveal sources is. This game has the most forgiving, imbalanced (in terms of risk vs reward especially) stealth system I’ve ever played, in most MMOs damage brings you out of stealth, you are severely limited in your ability to stealth in combat, your movement speed is slower in stealth, there are normally consumables that any class can use to detect stealthed players, you can’t stealth other players and so on, the “counterplay” to stealth in GW2 is a joke.

So adding more stealth with the new PU trait just makes the game even more braindead, even more unskilled, but then I guess that is the target audience.

From a PvE perspective it’s “nice to have” since you can do quite a few skips without a Thief, but quite honestly I would like to turn back the clock to before this trait ever existed.
Not because it’s bad, useless or OP, but because the PU-specific balance whine always seems to get everything but PU nerfed instead.

First off, I must say that I haven’t played with the current version of PU. I also don’t WvW or PvE, so take into consideration that my opinion is based purely from a PvP perspective.

Based on conversations with others, I can see why people would really dislike PU. I thought it was very strong before the buff and didn’t see a need for it to be buffed. I’ve also seen it in action myself. It’s extremely powerful. I think Anet would do better at balancing Mesmer skills/utilities if they did something similar to Master of Fragmentation where they make individual changes to each separate skill. I see where they intended for it to be useful: PvE and WvW for the group Veil and Mass Invisibility.

What they got instead is Mesmer 1-2 shot-ing people out of stealth in PvP.

Right now though, it seems like they’re pushing for more revealed traits/skills, which would add more counterplay for stealthed enemies theoretically making engineers, dragonhunters and rangers more valuable in a party.

Photoloss.4817:

From a PvE perspective it’s “nice to have” since you can do quite a few skips without a Thief, but quite honestly I would like to turn back the clock to before this trait ever existed.
Not because it’s bad, useless or OP, but because the PU-specific balance whine always seems to get everything but PU nerfed instead.

lol +1 this

My problem is not anything they did to the PU build, but what they did to all the other classes. The whole play style for PU Condi was to stick your condis and use your evade skills to live long enough for the condis to do their thing. But with all the extra damage the other classes are now producing, it is now very difficult to live long enough for the condis to do their thing.

apharma.3741:

It’s also now worth pointing out Mesmer stealth is unique. What do I mean by this? All other forms of stealth as far as I know stack duration. You can have 4 guards blast a smoke field and get 12s of stealth. Get 4 mesmers to use mass invis and you will only get 5s as it doesn’t stack, thus making you stagger stealth. It also bugs out the stealth effect which is annoying.

This is false.

Mesmer stealth is simply a different buff than Thief/combo stealth. Mesmer stealth stacks with Mesmer stealth, but does not stack with Thief/combo stealth. If a character has both Mesmer and Thief/combo stealth stacked on them, both stealth buffs will tick at the same time and do not stack in duration.

Related to this note, PU stealth stacking is incredibly strong now. Able to stack around a minute of stealth at a time, PU’s former nerf of adding Swiftness to the mix has now turned it into a mobility strategy. I now routinely stack stealth on myself when roaming WvW simply for the RNG swiftness stacking when moving from point A to point B while out of combat, and this is able to serve as a relatively reliable source of Swiftness. PU stealth stacking really feels very powerful now, personally I feel it is almost too powerful.

I still believe that adding more RNG into the PU boons is a bad policy, as the more RNG there is in traits an skills, the less control the player has, which means the skill/trait is inherently less skillful to use. A good thing about the former PU boons, was that they all served a similar purpose, you could rely on stealth simply giving you defensive boons. However you could also look on the bright side of this, in that this gives Mesmer more potential types of boons, which now with the Chaos minor trait “Chaotic Persistence”, outgoing boon duration very well could be increased by having that one random Might stack on you.

Surbrus.6942:

apharma.3741:

It’s also now worth pointing out Mesmer stealth is unique. What do I mean by this? All other forms of stealth as far as I know stack duration. You can have 4 guards blast a smoke field and get 12s of stealth. Get 4 mesmers to use mass invis and you will only get 5s as it doesn’t stack, thus making you stagger stealth. It also bugs out the stealth effect which is annoying.

Related to this note, PU stealth stacking is incredibly strong now. Able to stack around a minute of stealth at a time

Not any more, they already stopped the Mesmer stealth stacking

Telly.4962:

Not any more, they already stopped the Mesmer stealth stacking

Since when? Has there been a new build since last night?… that’s last I was roaming and stealth stacking.

He’s right, i just tried it and my Mesmer can stack stealth upon itself and it increases the duration of the initial Mesmer stealth. I’m sure it didn’t at one point but I can admit when I’m wrong and will alter my post accordingly.

Telly.4962:

Not any more, they already stopped the Mesmer stealth stacking

As of when? I didn’t play last night, but Mesmer stealth was definitely stacking on Sunday, and there haven’t been any patches since then.

apharma.3741:

He’s right, i just tried it and my Mesmer can stack stealth upon itself and it increases the duration of the initial Mesmer stealth. I’m sure it didn’t at one point but I can admit when I’m wrong and will alter my post accordingly.

Back before the “feature patches” mesmer stealth wasn’t standardised. Decoy in particular had its own unique buff which iirc didn’t even interact with Revealed.

PU, as far as stealth duration, is quite strong and could use a bit of a nerf. I think Warlord of Chaos has said a 50% duration increase would be appropriate and I agree. Running Berserker or Rampager amulet with PU allows for an easy-mode reset of a 1v1 fight to cap or assault a point. I out-stealth thieves regularly waiting for them to use their cds and then just go ham.

The one thing that makes PU OP right now is the fact that we can attack while remaining stealthed. IMHO we should be automatically unstealthed when making any sort of attack or inflicting damage.

The problem with current mesmer PU is the same as problem with thieves, which is general lack of stealth counterplay in the entire game.

Well, the whole point of stealth is to attack from it…

As far as counterplay, there are maneuvers one can perform. (With the exception of the PU stealth duration) You can time attacks. Thieves, if they run DP, have a very predictable stealth duration, dodging backstabs is not unheard of. And other defenses can be prepared if you miss that. Mesmer stealth is the real problem right now because you can cross an entire map stealthed with abilities that have short cooldowns.

The counterplay is simply knowing what to expect from the stealthed class. What’s more dangerous, actually, are the classes that become stealthed by Mass Invisibility or Shadow Refuge.

The new PU is perfect for WvW roaming. I can now escape blobs and groups of “solo roamers” easily. I have a lot of fun with my shatter PU build. Finaly

The big difference between thief stealth burst and mesmer stealth burst is range. When a thief is in stealth, I know he’s somewhere around me. My autoattacks have a chance to hit him, which makes it a bit more risky for him to stand around taking time to position. The mesmer’s stealth burst can be initiated from range which is one reason why it’s more difficult to counter.

I think the breathing room PU gives to a mesmer and time to pick a correct decision feels like a little bit to much, especially if you consider decoy and torch 4 are rather convenient ways of entering stealth. It is a little kitteneap when on a mesmer you can kill somebody and than stealth for half a minute to get away.

Overall whether I play with my own mesmer or whenever I duel another mesmer on my guardian/elementalist/thief I tend to have a lot more fun than pre patch. Just the sheer duration of mesmer stealth feels annoying when you play on lets say an elementalist/warrior.

bhagwad.4281:

The big difference between thief stealth burst and mesmer stealth burst is range. When a thief is in stealth, I know he’s somewhere around me. My autoattacks have a chance to hit him, which makes it a bit more risky for him to stand around taking time to position. The mesmer’s stealth burst can be initiated from range which is one reason why it’s more difficult to counter.

A “proper” greatsword burst relies on being close to your target. You can still go 4-2-3 at range without it but that doesn’t hit nearly hard enough to one-shot anyone reliably. Mesmers can Blink in close, but that’s exactly the same as thieves using Steal.

PU isn’t broken, stealth is broken.

Before they touch this trait (or any other build/trait people are using with it) they need to change the mechanics of stealth.

If they don’t and just nerf this trait then they also need to have a complete redesign of theif.

Just get rid of PU completely and give us something else that fits Mesmer better. It is a lame trait that should never have existed. If you want long stealth, then go thief IMHO.

tobascodagama.2961:

Telly.4962:

Not any more, they already stopped the Mesmer stealth stacking

As of when? I didn’t play last night, but Mesmer stealth was definitely stacking on Sunday, and there haven’t been any patches since then.

Ah, good to know I might have been mistaken… for some reason when I tried last night in WvW, it didn’t seem to be stacking. I’ll have to pull it back out tonight and confirm.

Some very interesting points in here. Main reason I wanted to ask was because whenever I heard people call PU broken or OP, they rarely mention power builds, its usually just the super passive Staff condi clone death build(probably because its annoying to deal with and takes a while), which IMO isn’t exactly viable anymore, especially not with the maim nerf.

Stealth could use some changes in my opinion, but it needs to be a class by class thing. Just giving a blanket change in stealth will obviously affect thieves, mesmers and possibly engis differently. For example, thieves have an entire trait line based around stealth, its one of their primary sources of damage mitigation(alongside evades and blinds). For mesmers, its less of a damage mitigating tool and more of a positioning one as we have easier access to boons, crowd control, invulnerability and combat mobility to keep us alive. Obviously any class would suffer if all of a sudden their main source of damage mitigation was less effective. Like if blocks on guards only blocked a certain amount of damage or if Water attunement recharged slower than the others.

Only reason I bring this up because honestly the mesmer forums have been kinda sad lately. Lots of people calling for nerfs on things in several threads constantly. Are we really the self defeating class? Seemed like some people picked mesmer because it was the underdog and are upset that it isn’t completely so anymore.

PU is freaking Awsome. there said it.

I have a problem with mesmers who sit in stealth and just uses clones/phantasms to whittle an opponent down. Takes zero skill and accomplishes nothing in a match other than to annoy others (aka troll build).

Same goes for shattering from stealth. When you have limited access to stealth, its a risk using your stealth offensively to shatter so I can accept that type of play. When a mesmer just loads up on stealth and continuously restealths after every shatter attempt, there is no counter and/or risk to the mesmer.

A mesmer should not be able to sit in stealth and do damage. A thief shooting you with a shortbow while remaining invisible has more counterplay since you at least know roughly where the thief is.

Having said that, I really haven’t run across too many mesmers who abuse PU but because of the few who do, the skill needs to change.

When I run it, I abuse it.

Leodon.1564:

I have a problem with mesmers who sit in stealth and whittles an opponent down using clones/phantasms conditions. Takes zero skill and accomplishes nothing in a match other than to annoy others (aka troll build).

Same goes for shattering from stealth. When you have limited access to stealth, its a risk using your stealth offensively to shatter so I can accept that type of play. When a mesmer just loads up on stealth and continuously restealths after every shatter attempt, there is no counter and/or risk to the mesmer.

A mesmer should not be able to sit in stealth and do damage. A thief shooting you with a shortbow while remaining invisible has more counterplay since you at least know roughly where the thief is.

Having said that, I really haven’t run across too many mesmers who abuse PU but it really needs to go away.

Is there a mesmer thread yet you havent complain? cuz we help

Leodon.1564:

troll build

There’s nothing wrong balancewise with troll builds. If someone wants to use Nomads and load up on stealths, evades, blinds and the like, making near zero contributions then that’s just what they’re doing. Same thing as people complaining about unkillible Thieves who save all their initiative and cool downs for escape, while not actually doing anything offensively… so what?

apharma.3741:

stealth on a slow class like Mesmer is a bad joke and generally most roamers can catch up the 3-4s gap easily.

Just as an interesting side note.

Using Traveler runes, traited blink, torch, decoy, mass invis, traited staff for reverse phase retreats and Mirror for reflects, I have been able to outrun fairly large groups (which also happen to contain warriors, rangers and thieves among others) – running in straight lines as well.

Add in a bit of misdirection/changing direction with the long stealth duration and not many can keep up unless they’re seriously intent on chasing you, especially once you get out of combat and at “normal” running speed.

As someone else mentioned, PU is fine. If there is an issue, I agree it’s with stealth in general and that Thieves should be along for the ride if crap starts to fly.

Surbrus.6942:

Leodon.1564:

troll build

There’s nothing wrong balancewise with troll builds. If someone wants to use Nomads and load up on stealths, evades, blinds and the like, making near zero contributions then that’s just what they’re doing. Same thing as people complaining about unkillible Thieves who save all their initiative and cool downs for escape, while not actually doing anything offensively… so what?

Unkillable/hiding thiefs and PU mesmers are not the same thing. Theres a big difference between a thief who specs to just hide/evade but does no or poor damage and a mesmer who does good/great damage while remaining stealthed. There has to be a tradeoff and there is very little for a PU mesmer.

If a PU mesmer did no damage or damage you could shrug off, then the stealth duration would not be a problem. As it is, a PU mesmer will kill you in a very short amount of time for how unkillable they are. (High reward/low risk.)

Edit: This leads to players getting frustrated against mesmers and will lead them to call out for nerfs to our class. I’d rather Anet deal with PU than nerf other areas that don’t need to be.

Leodon.1564:

Theres a big difference between a thief who specs to just hide/evade but does poor damage and a mesmer who does good damage from stealth.

Both thief and mesmer stealth builds don’t really require neutering your damage, beyond missing out on access to a couple of awesome traits/utilities. Stealth-troll thieves can go all-in on Power/Precision/Ferocity or Condition Damage just like stealth-troll mesmers can.

ASP.8093:

Leodon.1564:

Theres a big difference between a thief who specs to just hide/evade but does poor damage and a mesmer who does good damage from stealth.

Both thief and mesmer stealth builds don’t really require neutering your damage, beyond missing out on access to a couple of awesome traits/utilities. Stealth-troll thieves can go all-in on Power/Precision/Ferocity or Condition Damage just like stealth-troll mesmers can.

Except those “stealth troll mesmers” lost a huge amount of their condition application with the change to maim and the removal of Debilitating Dissipation, meaning the only reliable condition application that can be used while stealthed is Staff Clones, which will only apply a damaging condition 66% of the time. So the two greatest strengths of what many people considered a trollish build that should be the reason of PU being nerfed aren’t even issues or even in the game anymore. And I hate to say it, but if a mesmer is killing you with staff autoattacks and stealth, then maybe you need to reconsider your build, especially in this new rising condi meta(at least as long as burning is so strong and prevalent). Power mesmers running PU are a completely different beast. They also give up quite a bit to get that stealth. Dueling obviously can’t be dropped. Illusions is also fairly mandatory as it reduces clone/phantasm cds AND shatter cds as well as providing some might. That leaves usually Domination, which can provide an insane amount of vulnerability to a proper burst. So giving up anyone of those lines for stealth isn’t exactly an easy choice.

It’s definitely a bit overpowered. I sat inside SM inner through about ten minutes of enemy sweeping, and was able to maintain like 90% stealth uptime the whole time and never got caught. Outright ridiculous, the uptime is too high!

Necrotize.2974:

Except those “stealth troll mesmers” lost a huge amount of their condition application with the change to maim and the removal of Debilitating Dissipation, meaning the only reliable condition application that can be used while stealthed is Staff Clones, which will only apply a damaging condition 66% of the time. So the two greatest strengths of what many people considered a trollish build that should be the reason of PU being nerfed aren’t even issues or even in the game anymore. And I hate to say it, but if a mesmer is killing you with staff autoattacks and stealth, then maybe you need to reconsider your build, especially in this new rising condi meta(at least as long as burning is so strong and prevalent). Power mesmers running PU are a completely different beast. They also give up quite a bit to get that stealth. Dueling obviously can’t be dropped. Illusions is also fairly mandatory as it reduces clone/phantasm cds AND shatter cds as well as providing some might. That leaves usually Domination, which can provide an insane amount of vulnerability to a proper burst. So giving up anyone of those lines for stealth isn’t exactly an easy choice.

I don’t know why you were replying to me specifically, but I think you’re kinda wrong here.

For starters, most PU power shatter mesmers shouldn’t drop Domination. Illusions is by far the more expendable line, since the big perk that PU grants you is the ability to play a bit more of a waiting game to get an ideal shatter combo: the power of each individual burst is much more important than the 20% difference in cooldowns.

Condi-burst PU is still a real thing in WvW, where access to the Perplexity rune makes it pretty easy to pile loads of Torment and Confusion on your target. Properly built, you can drop a lot of conditions on a target and escape all day. It’s hardly a game-breaking spec but I’ve played with and against them to know that they can be played much more aggressively than just the slow-as-mud clone-death attrition PU style of old.

Necrotize.2974:

Except those “stealth troll mesmers” lost a huge amount of their condition application with the change to maim and the removal of Debilitating Dissipation, meaning the only reliable condition application that can be used while stealthed is Staff Clones, which will only apply a damaging condition 66% of the time. So the two greatest strengths of what many people considered a trollish build that should be the reason of PU being nerfed aren’t even issues or even in the game anymore. And I hate to say it, but if a mesmer is killing you with staff autoattacks and stealth, then maybe you need to reconsider your build, especially in this new rising condi meta(at least as long as burning is so strong and prevalent).

I disagree with this statement. I run Inspiration with MoR for condi cleanses and its useless against clones because they stack conditions faster than you can cleanse/heal through the damage. I’d rather deal with a Torment/Power shattering PU mesmer than the staff clones since you can cleanse/avoid burst damage. Clones by themselves put so much pressure on you that you are at half health in no time and I have not found a way to counter to them. Again, this is damage you are freely doing while remaining stealthed.

If you or anyone has gone up against a condi PU and know of a reasonable way to counter this then mention it here by all means.

It doesn’t exactly help that the first Inspiration minor is bugged at the moment with MoR. It never applies the condi removal to the final charge, so if you don’t have Harmonious Mantras, you get only one cleanse. I honestly don’t roam much, but that shouldn’t be a factor as 1v1 is not a gamemode this game is balanced around. Balancing everything for 1v1 Roaming will probably be next to impossible if they’re also balancing for Zergs in WvW, small groups in TPvP and PvE. What you seem to be describing though is a mesmer just sitting in stealth the entire time and doing nothing but dodging to produce clones. Seeing how prevalent condis are now, one source of condition removal(albeit a bugged one) does not seem like a great way to combat that. Mesmer v Mesmer is also a fairly unreliable matchup in this case as stealth has always been an issue for mesmer to combat simply due to the sheer amount of skills that require targets, GS being a huge offender for this one.

But if I had to give advice on fighting it in WvW roaming, I’d say if the mesmer is just sitting in stealth, kill the clones while you’re waiting. Without DD applying bleeds and such, there’s no real penalty to killing the clones while you can’t target the mesmer. I’ll say it again though, roaming is not really a supported game mode, hence certain things are going to counter others. Stealth can counter quite a few things, but in TPvP, that’s countered by preventing point capture/contesting while stealthed, so the longer you stay stealthed, the more points your opponents get or the quicker its decapped. Nerfing stealth/PU in all aspects of the game because it is too strong when roaming hardly seems reasonable IMO.

theory.3580:

It’s definitely a bit overpowered. I sat inside SM inner through about ten minutes of enemy sweeping, and was able to maintain like 90% stealth uptime the whole time and never got caught. Outright ridiculous, the uptime is too high!

Yep, spent an hour on a reset night with 2 guards and me being a thief. I perma stealthed them in bay and kept flipping it when the enemy Zerg left. Really annoyed them for hours.

Can you do that as a mesmer? Nope, I guess you can port people in but I find portals are a death sentence if someone knows it’s coming.

@ Necrotize

Just to clarify, I use Harmonious Mantras and my comments are with sPVP in mind.

Again, I don’t run into PU mesmers that often so my experience in dealing with them is quite limited. From what I gather though, there doesn’t seem to be a counter to them and that is where I have a problem. Everything needs a counter to be considered fair play not to mention somewhat balanced in regards to risk/reward level.

Your suggestion for killing clones does not work unless you have access to AoE on a short cooldown to combat the clone generation. Ideally it would be a weapon ability that cleaves at range such as a Guardian Staff or Ranger Axe. If you don’t have access to something like this, then I don’t see you being able to keep up with the clone generation.

And to clarify, the playstyle is not to sit in stealth the whole time and generate clones. You generate clones/phantasms to pressure your enemy while ranging them with your staff. If they kill your clones, you just continue to pressure them from range and generate more clones. If they turn their attention on you, you invis up, generate more clones and pop out at range again to continue with the pressure. You sprinkle in some shatters when appropriate and you will not last long under this kind of pressure. Its not burst but you have roughly 10-15 seconds to try and kill the mesmer before you are forced to retreat.

As a mesmer, I am ok with this kind of cheese if other classes are able to deal with it and it was just us mesmers that couldn’t deal with PU. I wouldn’t be calling for a nerf to it then and I would be perfectly fine with keeping it the way it is. However, I don’t think that is the case and in order it to be fair to other classes, I do believe the skill needs to be adjusted so that there is some type of counter-play for it.

If you do not want to see the skill nerfed, I would suggest you spread the word on ways to counter it.

You are complaining about long steAlth times. In 6 seconds you cannot click on a clone and kill it? In 12 seconds you cannot target a clone and kill it? You are standing around looking for the real Mesmer while his clones chew you. Brilliant strategy no offense you deserve to die.

denis.9487:

Brilliant strategy no offense you deserve to die.

All things have a right to grow.

Snakebyte.2804:

denis.9487:

Brilliant strategy no offense you deserve to die.

All things have a right to grow.

Are you a sylvari?

denis.9487:

You are complaining about long steAlth times. In 6 seconds you cannot click on a clone and kill it? In 12 seconds you cannot target a clone and kill it? You are standing around looking for the real Mesmer while his clones chew you. Brilliant strategy no offense you deserve to die.

You bring up a good point. I have alot of PVP experience on my Mesmer and in PVP in general from other games. However, as I mentioned, I don’t have a whole lot of experience in dealing with PU mesmers or in playing other classes. My viewpoints are based on just a few random encounters with them post patch and how I think it affects class balance. If other classes have access to reasonable ways to counter the build, then I take back everything I said on the subject and apologize.

To clarify, my views on the subject are not based on me personally having a problem with it. (Yes, I think its a troll build but I can see it for what it is and don’t really have problems dealing with it.) If you support PU as is, then the best way to not get it nerfed/adjusted is to educate other classes on ways to counter it so that they can actually go out and try it for themselves.

As for Spvp and PU, then the choice is obvious. All classes can exploit PU’s weakness there. Stealthed mesmers aren’t holding points and rotating around points is what mesmer is great at. So find yourself face to face with a PU mesmer guarding a point? Decap it, then move on and outnumber his team on mid. The mesmer needs to wait till stealth is gone to even start recapping and then has to wait there while you 5v4 the rest of his team. That’s the simplest scenario. Things obviously become more complex if you factor in other rotating teammates/enemies, but the weakness is still there.

If the PU mesmer wants to negate your pressure, they have to stop contesting the point. If they’re a tanky PU condi mesmer, then they aren’t gonna offer much to teamfights, and they’re extremely vulnerable to decaps when alone. Not exactly top tier material and this has always been an inherent weakness of mesmer stealth in SPvP(since we have no real incentive to prematurely end stealth like backstab).

To those who’re saying “stealth doesn’t contest a point”, that depends on how fast the PU mesmer can kill you by superior positioning granted by long stealth duration. If it’s fast enough, then killing you + gaining the point after your death is an excellent compromise.

Also, for those saying “long stealth durations…simply avoid the burst etc”. The point is that the mesmer (or thief) can break stealth at any time. They don’t have to wait out the full duration of stealth to initiate their burst. This uncertainty means you have no idea when to blow your CDs. If you dodge too early, then you just have to pray that the mesmer has chosen that moment to burst you.

The whole point of stealth is its unpredictablity. You know what…this gives me a great idea for modification to stealth. Stealth effect:

Stealth: You cannot break stealth till the duration ends. You cannot do any damage in stealth.

I guarantee you that if this change occurs, all the complaints about stealth will end. Why? Because you have removed one key element – the unpredictability of when to come out of stealth.

What do you think?

bhagwad.4281:

To those who’re saying “stealth doesn’t contest a point”, that depends on how fast the PU mesmer can kill you by superior positioning granted by long stealth duration. If it’s fast enough, then killing you + gaining the point after your death is an excellent compromise.

Also, for those saying “long stealth durations…simply avoid the burst etc”. The point is that the mesmer (or thief) can break stealth at any time. They don’t have to wait out the full duration of stealth to initiate their burst. This uncertainty means you have no idea when to blow your CDs. If you dodge too early, then you just have to pray that the mesmer has chosen that moment to burst you.

The whole point of stealth is its unpredictablity. You know what…this gives me a great idea for modification to stealth. Stealth effect:

Stealth: You cannot break stealth till the duration ends. You cannot do any damage in stealth.

I guarantee you that if this change occurs, all the complaints about stealth will end. Why? Because you have removed one key element – the unpredictability of when to come out of stealth.

What do you think?

I doubt the complaining will end. People would still be annoyed that they can’t target the mesmer until stealth ends. And especially in PvP, these condi mesmers aren’t exactly bursting anyone from stealth yet those seem to be the builds complainers are most vocal about. Probably because PU condi is/was a problem in WvW roaming, but not so much in PvP, where Anet seems to focus a lot of their balancing time.

But that change itself would single-handedly cripple thieves’ stealth attacks and probably destroy main-hand dagger for thieves. Even if they could somehow use backstab at say the final second of stealth, it’d still mean giving your opponents a guaranteed 3 seconds to recover/prepare. People are complaining about stealth because countering it isn’t as simple as slotting a certain utility or using a certain skill at a certain time. Its application is very open ended and suits the mesmer well, meaning skilled players can do amazing things with the help of stealth. Anet seems pretty adamant about leaving stealth as is and instead giving certain classes more reveal access and uptime.

Necrotize.2974:

bhagwad.4281:

To those who’re saying “stealth doesn’t contest a point”, that depends on how fast the PU mesmer can kill you by superior positioning granted by long stealth duration. If it’s fast enough, then killing you + gaining the point after your death is an excellent compromise.

Also, for those saying “long stealth durations…simply avoid the burst etc”. The point is that the mesmer (or thief) can break stealth at any time. They don’t have to wait out the full duration of stealth to initiate their burst. This uncertainty means you have no idea when to blow your CDs. If you dodge too early, then you just have to pray that the mesmer has chosen that moment to burst you.

The whole point of stealth is its unpredictablity. You know what…this gives me a great idea for modification to stealth. Stealth effect:

Stealth: You cannot break stealth till the duration ends. You cannot do any damage in stealth.

I guarantee you that if this change occurs, all the complaints about stealth will end. Why? Because you have removed one key element – the unpredictability of when to come out of stealth.

What do you think?

I doubt the complaining will end. People would still be annoyed that they can’t target the mesmer until stealth ends. And especially in PvP, these condi mesmers aren’t exactly bursting anyone from stealth yet those seem to be the builds complainers are most vocal about. Probably because PU condi is/was a problem in WvW roaming, but not so much in PvP, where Anet seems to focus a lot of their balancing time.

But that change itself would single-handedly cripple thieves’ stealth attacks and probably destroy main-hand dagger for thieves. Even if they could somehow use backstab at say the final second of stealth, it’d still mean giving your opponents a guaranteed 3 seconds to recover/prepare. People are complaining about stealth because countering it isn’t as simple as slotting a certain utility or using a certain skill at a certain time. Its application is very open ended and suits the mesmer well, meaning skilled players can do amazing things with the help of stealth. Anet seems pretty adamant about leaving stealth as is and instead giving certain classes more reveal access and uptime.

I understand. I feel however, that if the stealthed person gets a 3 second respite, then the opponent needs to get one too. It’s not like a boon which can be removed, nor an invul which has extremely long CDs and short durations. And in invul you can see the timer, know when it’s going to expire etc. So the opponent has some information.

I feel that by making stealth durations mandatory, the opponent gets some information as well.

P.S. I just put this up as a general suggestion…

Necrotize.2974:

Power mesmers running PU are a completely different beast. They also give up quite a bit to get that stealth. Dueling obviously can’t be dropped. Illusions is also fairly mandatory as it reduces clone/phantasm cds AND shatter cds as well as providing some might. That leaves usually Domination, which can provide an insane amount of vulnerability to a proper burst. So giving up anyone of those lines for stealth isn’t exactly an easy choice.

They do not give up quite a bit to get stealth… Power shatter is highly effective no matter what 2 trees you go into in addition to Dueling. Illusions is not the least bit mandatory imo. Yes, most power shatter builds will benefit from the line, but you give up that extra power & clone management in exchange for either survivability or control. The latter is what is causing issues.

Duel/Chaos/Dom = the ability to quickly lock enemies down via CS and MoD. This is the biggest issue people are seeing. You don’t need the Shatter CDs in Illusions when it only takes 1 shatter out of stealth to down an enemy. Dwayna forbid the Mesmer is running Mental Anguish when he shatters you…

All this is to really say damage across all professions is just high right now. We’ll have to wait a while to see how things shake out and see if people are able to adjust. Maybe we’ll see tanker amulets used in response or more supportive builds being run…