Guild Wars 2

Choppy.4183:

People have complained about thieves, a lot, and they pay a heavy price for their stealth.

The 12k backstabs, the constant target lock breaks or the spammable teleport? Which one exactly?

Sorry, but Thieves do what people mind about PU Mesmers much better.

Loxsus.3841:

Sunflowers.1729:

Choppy.4183:

A weird argument is emerging that basically says,

1. Long stealth doesn’t help you in PvP
2. The stealth buff doesn’t matter in zergs
3. 1v1 and small scale Wvw don’t matter
4. (Therefore) the stealth shouldn’t be reduced

If the long stealth doesn’t matter in some areas in the game, that isn’t a reason to keep it, it’s a reason to take those areas out of consideration because they’ll be fine either way. It matters in some areas of the game, and reducing the stealth addresses that while keeping mesmers viable and not impacting other areas of the game.

Well…

There’s also the argument that “Thieves have been able to do this since forever, so why is everyone fine with them doing it but not Mesmers?”

That’s basically it, yes.

It’s cheesy, like you said previously, but this is NOT new. What’s new is that mesmers can do it now and not just thieves and that’s WEIRD (for some reason). The duration is fine. The buffs it give are fine.

What needs to change, as has also been said, are there needs to be more ways to REVEAL a target. The length of stealth isn’t the problem it’s the lack of counter play which has been echoed a lot by a few people. But if they nerf PU’s duration they should be fair and gut the thief while they’re at it.

I can also think its fair that casting a phantasm SHOULD count as revealed … unless it misses like the thief blind thing.

It’s also kittening false that “everyone was fine with them (thieves) doing it”. Tons of ppl were definitely NOT fine with it at all. I sure never was and I still am not. Now, it’s no longer just thieves but kittening Mesmers too with all the consequences that goes along.

That thief argument is pure BS squared.

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

Loxsus.3841:

Sunflowers.1729:

Choppy.4183:

A weird argument is emerging that basically says,

1. Long stealth doesn’t help you in PvP
2. The stealth buff doesn’t matter in zergs
3. 1v1 and small scale Wvw don’t matter
4. (Therefore) the stealth shouldn’t be reduced

If the long stealth doesn’t matter in some areas in the game, that isn’t a reason to keep it, it’s a reason to take those areas out of consideration because they’ll be fine either way. It matters in some areas of the game, and reducing the stealth addresses that while keeping mesmers viable and not impacting other areas of the game.

Well…

There’s also the argument that “Thieves have been able to do this since forever, so why is everyone fine with them doing it but not Mesmers?”

That’s basically it, yes.

It’s cheesy, like you said previously, but this is NOT new. What’s new is that mesmers can do it now and not just thieves and that’s WEIRD (for some reason). The duration is fine. The buffs it give are fine.

What needs to change, as has also been said, are there needs to be more ways to REVEAL a target. The length of stealth isn’t the problem it’s the lack of counter play which has been echoed a lot by a few people. But if they nerf PU’s duration they should be fair and gut the thief while they’re at it.

I can also think its fair that casting a phantasm SHOULD count as revealed … unless it misses like the thief blind thing.

It’s also kittening false that “everyone was fine with them (thieves) doing it”. Tons of ppl were definitely NOT fine with it at all. I sure never was and I still am not. Now, it’s no longer just thieves but kittening Mesmers too with all the consequences that goes along.

That thief argument is pure BS squared.

Let me rephrase then; unless stealth itself is re-evaluated, it would be complete BS and hypocrisy if thieves are left untouched but PU is nerfed in duration. Or BS squared.

But let me be clear that I don’t think we’re too far off from one another. The whole “thief resetting a fight and you should feel like you won if they left” argument has been a bit sour to me as well for awhile. I just want fairness. If they don’t see it’s a problem for a thief then it shouldn’t be for a mesmer.

Maybe have certain weapon skills APPLY the revealed status so if you hit with one, it tags them. There are a number of possibilities and I’d like to think A-NET would look at some but their record doesn’t show much faith on the matter.

Loxsus.3841:

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

Loxsus.3841:

Sunflowers.1729:

Choppy.4183:

A weird argument is emerging that basically says,

1. Long stealth doesn’t help you in PvP
2. The stealth buff doesn’t matter in zergs
3. 1v1 and small scale Wvw don’t matter
4. (Therefore) the stealth shouldn’t be reduced

If the long stealth doesn’t matter in some areas in the game, that isn’t a reason to keep it, it’s a reason to take those areas out of consideration because they’ll be fine either way. It matters in some areas of the game, and reducing the stealth addresses that while keeping mesmers viable and not impacting other areas of the game.

Well…

There’s also the argument that “Thieves have been able to do this since forever, so why is everyone fine with them doing it but not Mesmers?”

That’s basically it, yes.

It’s cheesy, like you said previously, but this is NOT new. What’s new is that mesmers can do it now and not just thieves and that’s WEIRD (for some reason). The duration is fine. The buffs it give are fine.

What needs to change, as has also been said, are there needs to be more ways to REVEAL a target. The length of stealth isn’t the problem it’s the lack of counter play which has been echoed a lot by a few people. But if they nerf PU’s duration they should be fair and gut the thief while they’re at it.

I can also think its fair that casting a phantasm SHOULD count as revealed … unless it misses like the thief blind thing.

It’s also kittening false that “everyone was fine with them (thieves) doing it”. Tons of ppl were definitely NOT fine with it at all. I sure never was and I still am not. Now, it’s no longer just thieves but kittening Mesmers too with all the consequences that goes along.

That thief argument is pure BS squared.

Let me rephrase then; unless stealth itself is re-evaluated, it would be complete BS and hypocrisy if thieves are left untouched but PU is nerfed in duration. Or BS squared.

But let me be clear that I don’t think we’re too far off from one another. The whole “thief resetting a fight and you should feel like you won if they left” argument has been a bit sour to me as well for awhile. I just want fairness. If they don’t see it’s a problem for a thief then it shouldn’t be for a mesmer.

Maybe have certain weapon skills APPLY the revealed status so if you hit with one, it tags them. There are a number of possibilities and I’d like to think A-NET would look at some but their record doesn’t show much faith on the matter.

Stop playing with words.

Currently PU power spec is 10 times harder to deal with than the current SA thief.
Period. There’s no comparison, not even close.

Thief is so easy to kill compare to Mesmer, Period. They don’t get invulnerable, evade (if they play perma-stealth, they have to go D/P, so no evade), their stealth time shorter, they can’t harm you when in stealth compare to mesmer, they don’t have easy access to reflection, their blind will cause them to sacrifice dps, their burst is easier to counter.
All they can do now is to land that first back-stab, if they fail they’re usually busted. This does not apply to Mesmer, since they have so many tools to cover their mistakes.

Also Mesmer’s stealth apply to more targets and bigger radius, that a small team of 5~10 can easily abuse PU and easily kill anyone in WvW with no consequences. of being chased or being tracked.

This is my experience against Mesmer and Thief. Period.

Sunflowers.1729:

Ya PU is a bit over the top right now but your comparison is so biased it isn’t even funny.

Umm… I play my mesmer more than I play my thief, am currently specced to PU in Wvw, and I main a warrior.

Thieves have counterplay. Even as a warrior, I know where SR is, I know roughly when their regular stealths end and where they need to be to burst, they’re easier to catch if they screw up, and they’re more confined by the initiative system for burst than are mesmers and their clones.

Sure, they have crazy burst coupled with engage/disengage, that’s their schtick. But it’s a fairly unforgiving class if you want to be bursty, especially compared to mesmers.

Landing warrior bursts requires more finesse than PU mesmers right now, and that seems so wrong. Couple that with the nutso survivability enhanced by PU and it should be obvious that rolling back the stealth bonus is a pretty non-disruptive fix.

Aomine.5012:

Loxsus.3841:

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

Loxsus.3841:

Sunflowers.1729:

Choppy.4183:

A weird argument is emerging that basically says,

1. Long stealth doesn’t help you in PvP
2. The stealth buff doesn’t matter in zergs
3. 1v1 and small scale Wvw don’t matter
4. (Therefore) the stealth shouldn’t be reduced

If the long stealth doesn’t matter in some areas in the game, that isn’t a reason to keep it, it’s a reason to take those areas out of consideration because they’ll be fine either way. It matters in some areas of the game, and reducing the stealth addresses that while keeping mesmers viable and not impacting other areas of the game.

Well…

There’s also the argument that “Thieves have been able to do this since forever, so why is everyone fine with them doing it but not Mesmers?”

That’s basically it, yes.

It’s cheesy, like you said previously, but this is NOT new. What’s new is that mesmers can do it now and not just thieves and that’s WEIRD (for some reason). The duration is fine. The buffs it give are fine.

What needs to change, as has also been said, are there needs to be more ways to REVEAL a target. The length of stealth isn’t the problem it’s the lack of counter play which has been echoed a lot by a few people. But if they nerf PU’s duration they should be fair and gut the thief while they’re at it.

I can also think its fair that casting a phantasm SHOULD count as revealed … unless it misses like the thief blind thing.

It’s also kittening false that “everyone was fine with them (thieves) doing it”. Tons of ppl were definitely NOT fine with it at all. I sure never was and I still am not. Now, it’s no longer just thieves but kittening Mesmers too with all the consequences that goes along.

That thief argument is pure BS squared.

Let me rephrase then; unless stealth itself is re-evaluated, it would be complete BS and hypocrisy if thieves are left untouched but PU is nerfed in duration. Or BS squared.

But let me be clear that I don’t think we’re too far off from one another. The whole “thief resetting a fight and you should feel like you won if they left” argument has been a bit sour to me as well for awhile. I just want fairness. If they don’t see it’s a problem for a thief then it shouldn’t be for a mesmer.

Maybe have certain weapon skills APPLY the revealed status so if you hit with one, it tags them. There are a number of possibilities and I’d like to think A-NET would look at some but their record doesn’t show much faith on the matter.

Stop playing with words.

Currently PU power spec is 10 times harder to deal with than the current SA thief.
Period. There’s no comparison, not even close.

Thief is so easy to kill compare to Mesmer, Period. They don’t get invulnerable, evade (if they play perma-stealth, they have to go D/P, so no evade), their stealth time shorter, they can’t harm you when in stealth compare to mesmer, they don’t have easy access to reflection, their blind will cause them to sacrifice dps, their burst is easier to counter.
All they can do now is to land that first back-stab, if they fail they’re usually busted. This does not apply to Mesmer, since they have so many tools to cover their mistakes.

Also Mesmer’s stealth apply to more targets and bigger radius, that a small team of 5~10 can easily abuse PU and easily kill anyone in WvW with no consequences. of being chased or being tracked.

This is my experience against Mesmer and Thief. Period.

I can’t play with words but you can abuse them? Silly forums …

Choppy.4183:

Sunflowers.1729:

Ya PU is a bit over the top right now but your comparison is so biased it isn’t even funny.

Umm… I play my mesmer more than I play my thief, am currently specced to PU in Wvw, and I main a warrior.

Thieves have counterplay. Even as a warrior, I know where SR is, I know roughly when their regular stealths end and where they need to be to burst, they’re easier to catch if they screw up, and they’re more confined by the initiative system for burst than are mesmers and their clones.

Sure, they have crazy burst coupled with engage/disengage, that’s their schtick. But it’s a fairly unforgiving class if you want to be bursty, especially compared to mesmers.

Landing warrior bursts requires more finesse than PU mesmers right now, and that seems so wrong. Couple that with the nutso survivability enhanced by PU and it should be obvious that rolling back the stealth bonus is a pretty non-disruptive fix.

So that’s it right there. These complainers are upset that Mesmer isn’t on the bottom of the food chain. All this nonsense about thief burst all u need is one button. Mesmer you see our greatsword blade there is counter play. All I’m asking is let it settle. And no I’m not like an engineer asking for there 1 skill I win button. Plenty of counter play with Mesmer stealth.

PU condi builds have become an imitation of the PU condi thief: massive stealth-camping trolls with one trick up their sleeves. I think this is, self-evidently, the wrong direction for the trait.

I think PU was pretty great in its original form before they nerfed it by adding do-nothing conditions (like Swiftness and that single Might stack) to the mix. Back then, it was part of an overall package that allowed glassy mesmers some of the durability of necros and eles thanks to high Protection uptime and a bit of Regen and Aegis.

Nowadays, I think it could do more than that, but just straight-up increases stealth duration forever wasn’t the right move. I’d have much preferred to see a reinvention of the trait to interact with illusions or teammates in some way (while still being a stealth trait that gives some buffs, ideally).

Not to mention it seems clear that Anet is moving in a direction where reveal is more applicable and available to several classes. With engis now having 2 skills for it and guards getting a pulsing anti-stealth trap, who knows what other specs might get to apply reveal.

Also feel I should point out that in this condi meta(at least so long as burn is king), PU mesmer is at a pretty big advantage as they will likely have only one utility slot and torch trait devoted to condition clears. If they take Inspiration line to offset this, they probably won’t be dealing any meaningful damage to you and can just be ignored honestly as that leaves only 1 trait line for damage based effects and it will almost always be dueling at that point.

Mesmers are almost always a challenge for newer players due to issues with auto targeting. Unfortunately, many people got over this by getting used to just nuking the area from orbit and just face tanking bursts and attacking in circles like a crazy person. Now people actually get punished for not knowing how mesmers work and they don’t like it.

denis.9487:

So that’s it right there. These complainers are upset that Mesmer isn’t on the bottom of the food chain. All this nonsense about thief burst all u need is one button. Mesmer you see our greatsword blade there is counter play. All I’m asking is let it settle. And no I’m not like an engineer asking for there 1 skill I win button. Plenty of counter play with Mesmer stealth.

How in the world would reducing the stealth bonus on PU put mesmers on the bottom of the food chain? It wouldn’t and that’s not the point at all.

I already said I played a PU mesmer last night and it was dead easy to both deliver solid damage pressure and not die even with a party wipe, even though I’m not very skilled as a mes. Do you disagree that it’s a relatively easy and potent build to play with little risk for the reward?

If you do, then you have no idea what’s required of other classes. The point is to bring them all in balance with each other so they’re all fun to play and to play against.

I suppose it’s also time to bring up, again, that you haven’t actually made a case for why the buff is needed. We’re taking about one buff on one trait that nobody asked for in the first place and is clearly not needed for mesmers to be a strong and balanced class.

Choppy.4183:

denis.9487:

So that’s it right there. These complainers are upset that Mesmer isn’t on the bottom of the food chain. All this nonsense about thief burst all u need is one button. Mesmer you see our greatsword blade there is counter play. All I’m asking is let it settle. And no I’m not like an engineer asking for there 1 skill I win button. Plenty of counter play with Mesmer stealth.

How in the world would reducing the stealth bonus on PU put mesmers on the bottom of the food chain? It wouldn’t and that’s not the point at all.

Buddy, I already said I played a PU meaner last night and it was dead easy to both deliver solid damage pressure and not die even with a party wipe.. Do you disagree that it’s a relatively easy and potent build to play with little risk for reward?

If you do, then you have no idea what’s required of other classes. The point is to bring them in balance with each other.

I suppose it’s also time to bring up, again, that you haven’t actually made a case for why the buff is needed.

Ok buddy. It was buffed because that’s what they wanted.
The extra stealth means nothing except survival. The Mesmer can still do his stealth burts without pu. So u want to nerf a trait just because some extra time?? What happens when dueling/inspiration catches on, much more sustain with condition clearing? I know nerf that. How about learn to combat the Mesmer.

Choppy.4183:

denis.9487:

So that’s it right there. These complainers are upset that Mesmer isn’t on the bottom of the food chain. All this nonsense about thief burst all u need is one button. Mesmer you see our greatsword blade there is counter play. All I’m asking is let it settle. And no I’m not like an engineer asking for there 1 skill I win button. Plenty of counter play with Mesmer stealth.

How in the world would reducing the stealth bonus on PU put mesmers on the bottom of the food chain? It wouldn’t and that’s not the point at all.

I already said I played a PU mesmer last night and it was dead easy to both deliver solid damage pressure and not die even with a party wipe, even though I’m not very skilled as a mes. Do you disagree that it’s a relatively easy and potent build to play with little risk for the reward?

If you do, then you have no idea what’s required of other classes. The point is to bring them all in balance with each other so they’re all fun to play and to play against.

I suppose it’s also time to bring up, again, that you haven’t actually made a case for why the buff is needed. We’re taking about one buff on one trait that nobody asked for in the first place and is clearly not needed for mesmers to be a strong and balanced class.

Buddy your one experience with pu requires nerfing a trait? You can give the slip without pu. Decoy blink torch (now mimic) mass invisibility. These are common utilities a burst Mesmer is using. Let’s nerf it all then buddy. Let’s keep the Mesmer under the boot of all you good buddies.

Buddy, you’re hysterical. Do you see me demanding the undoing of a baseline IP or saying, “OMFG mesmers OP need NOW!!1!11!”? No.

Mesmer is a great class and fun to play. They should remain that way and, even based on things you’ve said,
reducing the stealth buff on PU won’t change that.

Mesmers haven’t had much experience with the Nerfbat, but I can assure you it usually hits hard and it hits a lot of the wrong stuff in the process. It should be obvious to anyone that plays or plays against a PU build that its stealth buff is excessive. You’d do well to accept that and advocate it be reduced before you actually get a “Mesmer OP” chant going and the Nerfbat comes to breaks things it shouldn’t, as has happened to other classes more than once.

Your continued failure to justify this buff that nobody asked for beyond “Anet wanted it”, and vague claims of counterplay and pleas to “wait till everything settles” speaks volumes.

It’s a troll trait and a crutch for unskilled mesmers like me and, almost certainly, like you too given how tightly you’re trying to hold onto it.

Choppy.4183:

Buddy, you’re hysterical. Do you see me demanding the undoing of a baseline IP or saying, “OMFG mesmers OP need NOW!!1!11!”? No.

Mesmers are a great class and fun to play. They should remain that way and, even based on things you’ve said,
reducing the stealth buff on PU won’t change that.

Mesmers haven’t had much experience with the Nerfbat, but I can assure you it usually hits hard and it hits a lot of the wrong stuff in the process. It should be obvious to anyone that plays or plays against a PU build that its stealth buff is excessive. You’d do well to accept that and advocate it be reduced before you actually get a “Mesmer OP” chant going and the Nerfbat comes to breaks things it shouldn’t, as has happened to other classes more than once.

Your continued failure to justify this buff that nobody asked for beyond “Anet wanted it”, and vague claims of counterplay and pleas to “wait till everything settles” speaks volumes.

It’s a troll trait and a crutch for unskilled mesmers like me and, almost certainly, like you too given how tightly you’re trying to hold onto it.

So if nerfing it won’t change anything why call for the nerf? I do not run chaos line. I have found dueling/inspiration far superior with the listed escape skills.

You’ll have to read more carefully. I said it won’t do anything to reduce the fun or viability of the class.

Dueling/Inspiration is superior for burst, which is why most shatter members run it and to great effect. Ergo, the cheesy stealth buff isn’t needed for the class to be powerful, and you continue to make my point. Thanks.

Choppy.4183:

You’ll have to read more carefully. I said it won’t do anything to reduce the fun or viability of the class.

Dueling/Inspiration is superior for burst, which is why most shatter members run it and to great effect. Ergo, the cheesy stealth buff isn’t needed for the class to be powerful, and you continue to make my point. Thanks.

Ok so let me get this. Your experience with pu let you escape while your party was killed. That is what pu is for a trait that lets you be slippery even more so than normal. Although with mimic that is debatable since the stealth uptime can be maintained close to pu numbers. So your assumption is nerf pu because it worked? Maybe if you used that exceptional dueling/inspiration you could have changed that outcome because pu trait is selfish. I am the troll,buddy yet I have listed utilities that enable the Mesmer to burst with or without pu equally well. Yet your experience with a defensive trait lead you to believe it needs a nerf? Not sure where the troll is but you used the trait how it was designed.

Choppy.4183:

You’ll have to read more carefully. I said it won’t do anything to reduce the fun or viability of the class.

Dueling/Inspiration is superior for burst, which is why most shatter members run it and to great effect. Ergo, the cheesy stealth buff isn’t needed for the class to be powerful, and you continue to make my point. Thanks.

Apart from PU, inspiration is actually better for survival than chaos (assuming the other two trees are domination and duelling in a power build) in pvp thanks to amazing condition cleanse and other traits giving excellent sustain.

Chaos offers better damage utility in both power and condition to boon traits like CI and Chaotic Persistence/Transference as well as the solid master of manipulation, as well as I believe offering the best/easiest method of surviving 1vX in wvw (where X is a huge group chasing you) thanks to the existence of PU. So I’d say chaos is superior to supplement burst damage whereas inspiration is superior for survival in small scale fights (ie in pvp).

Anyway, for the record I agree with you that the stealth durations of PU is excessive (I would like to see it reverted to +1 second and remove aegis, but then buff base veil, MI and The Pledge) – I don’t like using it but if for example I take Bountiful Dissipation in wvw and run into a Mesmer using PU I find myself at a serious and huge disadvantage – so I feel forced into taking it if taking Chaos and not inspiration.

In pvp I stick with bountiful dissipation which together with CI I believe are far more useful in conquest.

I’d also support a buff to veil if the stealth bonus from PU was reduced.

I don’t like stealth. I don’t like PU. However, I don’t want to see PU just nerfed with nothing in return. I’d love it if mesmers didn’t use stealth at all and just had other strengths to play without it. The second part is key, just nerfing stealth without buffing something else would be dumb. For now I use stealth (without PU) because if I don’t I’m gimping myself. I’d like this to change.

MSFone.3026:

I don’t like stealth. I don’t like PU. However, I don’t want to see PU just nerfed with nothing in return. I’d love it if mesmers didn’t use stealth at all and just had other strengths to play without it. The second part is key, just nerfing stealth without buffing something else would be dumb. For now I use stealth (without PU) because if I don’t I’m gimping myself. I’d like this to change.

That’s another subject entirely. If we play the, “everything I have is legit and you’ll have to pay to take something away” game , then the salty tears will flow through all classes that cling desperately to their broken traits too. we’re talking about undoing a two-week old buff that nobody asked for.

I don’t have any objection to stealth personally, even though I find myself fighting people using it more often than using it myself. But if you want it purged from the game, or want something buffed on mesmers in exchange for removing stealth from the class altogether, that’s a separate topic.

I’d be surprised if anyone wanted to go there with you though. Stealth on mesmers seems fine to me outside of PU.

Stealth on Mesmer’s is at an idiotic level right now, idiotic. If the Dev’s played WvW or cared about it in the slightest, they’d never had given so much stealth to Mesmer’s.

So rather than take anecdotal evidence from someone who quiet possibly could be playing against complete er lets just say people who get confused by clones. Let’s look at high level play, where we can be sure that both the Mesmer and the other person know how to dodge and time skills.

Check out the last 2 weeks of ESL go4. 1 mesmer in a lot of teams, sometimes none. Azanii from MiM I believe ran PU and was against either TCG or oRNG who had inspiration. Neither was completely domination the other players.

They played smart but PU didn’t give Azanii the edge, just meant escaping from a 1v1 was easier while the other could last longer in the fight and spent less time out of it. PU also didn’t allow for any real game changing burst or anything. When I look at competent players using them I don’t see a problem.

Mesmer is in a better place because they spend less time running away but PU isn’t used a lot because guess what’s? It doesn’t help you stay on the point and if you’re bursting someone down, the thief Mesmer combo is superior in which case, thief, stealth, go figure.

If you complain about WvW, well that things got massive balance issues all over the shop. I wouldn’t call for a nerf because of that as there are much bigger things that need balancing.

DeWolfe.2174:

Stealth on Mesmer’s is at an idiotic level right now, idiotic. If the Dev’s played WvW or cared about it in the slightest, they’d never had given so much stealth to Mesmer’s.

More like if 1v1 roaming was a game mode they wouldn’t have given this amount of stealth to mesmers. But it isn’t, and they did.

denis.9487:

Ok so let me get this. Your experience with pu let you escape while your party was killed. That is what pu is for a trait that lets you be slippery even more so than normal. Although with mimic that is debatable since the stealth uptime can be maintained close to pu numbers. So your assumption is nerf pu because it worked?

This is something I don’t understand, either.
“Hey, this works! Quick, nerf it!”

Yes, I understand Mesmers are a scary concept, with their clones and stealth and all. But how is being able to opt out of fight contribution in favor of dying less a bad thing? Especially on a GM trait. These are supposed to change how the class plays, and hey, this one does! Significantly less contribution for significantly more survivability.

DeWolfe.2174:

Stealth on Mesmer’s is at an idiotic level right now, idiotic. If the Dev’s played WvW or cared about it in the slightest, they’d never had given so much stealth to Mesmer’s.

Maybe overpowered in 1v1, but 1v1 isn’t a supported combat format so w/e, plus it doesn’t affect 1v1 situations in sPvP much because you can’t cap points while steathed.

All forms of stealth should be nerfed so that revealed is applied immediately when you use a non movement skill while stealthed, regardless of whether or not you’re in combat. PU is just the last in the list of overly forgiving stealth mechanics.

@apharma
If the extra stealth duration isn’t particularly helpful except in a couple of places (e.g. 1v1), to the point that many mesmers choose not to run it, what is the basis for your argument to leave PU as it is? Also, you do realize that “there are more OP things in wvw so we should leave this OP thing alone” isn’t a very good argument, right?

@Carighan
As you pointed out, running such long stealth effectively pulls you out of the match, which is why most mesmers rightly don’t choose PU in pvp at the cost of better sustain or damage options. We also know that many (possibly most) mesmers don’t run it in wvw, so what is the basis for keeping it? Do you believe mesmer survivability potential is less than other classes unless you have the stealth buff? Seriously?

Other people, myself included, don’t agree with your assessments so we’re calling for a rollback to where PU was a couple of weeks ago, or at least less than it is now because we’re finding it disruptive. Nothing of what either of you have said here make a case for not rolling back the stealth buff.

Further, if we were afraid of “scary mesmers and their clones”, wouldn’t we be advocating for nerfing something a little more core to the class than part of a buff from one trait that many or most mesmers don’t even take? You know, maybe something to do with their “scary clones”?

As long as they nerf thief-permastealth and repeated stealth-spam while they’re at it, fine with me. :P

Choppy.4183:

@apharma
If the extra stealth duration isn’t particularly helpful except in a couple of places (e.g. 1v1), to the point that many mesmers choose not to run it, what is the basis for your argument to leave PU as it is?

@Carighan
Why in the hell would anyone run PU in pvp? As, I think, you pointed out, running such long stealth effectively pulls you out of the match. Why would a mesmer need any more stealth than they have out of the box, especially when it comes at the cost of extra damage or sustain?

Other people, myself included, don’t agree with either of your assessments so we’re calling for a rollback to where it was a couple of weeks ago, or at least less than it is now because they are finding it disruptive. Nothing of what either of you have said here make a case for not rolling back the stealth buff.

That isn’t what I said, what I said is that it didn’t help in the team fights. All it did was help the guy escape from a bad situation, as in people going down and a near team wipe.

My argument for the last 4 pages, in the last PU thread and in every blooming thief nerf thread is this.

Stealth needs a viable counter, a way to reveal someone who is in stealth

Is that clear enough for you? The problem isn’t stealth, the problem is the lack of a real counter which any decent game puts in. Seriously, think of all the good games with stealth in, they always have a way to unstealth people.

Nerfing PU back to pre patch will only nerf Mesmer escapes to the point they will no longer be able to escape without using MI in WvW. In PvP it’ll just make people run inspiration or illusions line for power shatters as the boons are terrible, removing yet more build diversity.

Edit: Another reason you don’t need PU in PvP is that there’s so much stuff in the landscape, look at any PvP map and there’s an unnatural amount of stuff to LoS behind or blink up etc. Not so much in WvW.

Adding stealth as a possible outcome of a combo+finisher mechanic was also a big mistake on Anet’s part. Thing is, people are so used to it at this point that removing would cause more problems than keeping.

denis.9487:

Choppy.4183:

You’ll have to read more carefully. I said it won’t do anything to reduce the fun or viability of the class.

Dueling/Inspiration is superior for burst, which is why most shatter members run it and to great effect. Ergo, the cheesy stealth buff isn’t needed for the class to be powerful, and you continue to make my point. Thanks.

Ok so let me get this. Your experience with pu let you escape while your party was killed. That is what pu is for a trait that lets you be slippery even more so than normal. Although with mimic that is debatable since the stealth uptime can be maintained close to pu numbers. So your assumption is nerf pu because it worked? Maybe if you used that exceptional dueling/inspiration you could have changed that outcome because pu trait is selfish. I am the troll,buddy yet I have listed utilities that enable the Mesmer to burst with or without pu equally well. Yet your experience with a defensive trait lead you to believe it needs a nerf? Not sure where the troll is but you used the trait how it was designed.

You keep asking for reasons to support pu. The post I am referencing is how you played pu in wvw and when your party wiped you didn’t. Hence my response.

I know I am late to this post, but I feel PU needs to be nerfed so hard that no one ever uses it again. The trait right now is pure cancer and is breaking mesmer. I can basically stealth as long as a thief and instakill you if you are out of stealth for even a second. I know mesmer burst will probably get nerfed, but it doesnt matter if PU allows me to burst over and over again without any retaliation.

apharma.3741:

He’s right, i just tried it and my Mesmer can stack stealth upon itself and it increases the duration of the initial Mesmer stealth. I’m sure it didn’t at one point but I can admit when I’m wrong and will alter my post accordingly.

I could be wrong but it appears veil doesn’t stack with veil. I used mimic-veil then casted veil again as the first one started to fail, ran through the second and stealth dropped anyway.

Not a big deal, I can just mimic-veil-mass invisible-veil instead but it surprised me v and fit me killed running through arah :-)

apharma.3741:

Stealth needs a viable counter, a way to reveal someone who is in stealth

Is that clear enough for you? The problem isn’t stealth, the problem is the lack of a real counter which any decent game puts in. Seriously, think of all the good games with stealth in, they always have a way to unstealth people.

Nerfing PU back to pre patch will only nerf Mesmer escapes to the point they will no longer be able to escape without using MI in WvW. In PvP it’ll just make people run inspiration or illusions line for power shatters as the boons are terrible, removing yet more build diversity.

Mesmers already have more escape/disengage than many other classes without PU, possibly including warrior at this point (I’ve been running gs/s+sh, bulls, full cd reduction, and warriors sprint and I can barely escape from mesmers running Blink and Traveller’s runes, and that’s the fastest comp a warrior has).

Despite that, I’m not calling for thief stealth nerfs. Sure, they have some deadly burst from stealth, but it seems to be less of a problem.

Even still, your argument to leave PU as it is would only hold up if most mesmers were traiting it. If they don’t trait it, they aren’t getting the benefit, and evidently they aren’t finding the thief threat sufficient to meet that threat.

If you want stealth completely overhauled, fine, but you aren’t making much of an argument in support of the PU stealth buff. The issue of “build diversity” isn’t solved by keeping a stealth buff on a trait that apparently most mesmers aren’t taking now, and a buff they apparently don’t need anyway.

Warlord of Chaos.7845:

I know I am late to this post, but I feel PU needs to be nerfed so hard that no one ever uses it again. The trait right now is pure cancer and is breaking mesmer. I can basically stealth as long as a thief and instakill you if you are out of stealth for even a second. I know mesmer burst will probably get nerfed, but it doesnt matter if PU allows me to burst over and over again without any retaliation.

As long as all classes get their damage reduced/looked at. Mesmer are far from the only classes lighting up the health bars.

Choppy.4183:

apharma.3741:

Stealth needs a viable counter, a way to reveal someone who is in stealth

Is that clear enough for you? The problem isn’t stealth, the problem is the lack of a real counter which any decent game puts in. Seriously, think of all the good games with stealth in, they always have a way to unstealth people.

Nerfing PU back to pre patch will only nerf Mesmer escapes to the point they will no longer be able to escape without using MI in WvW. In PvP it’ll just make people run inspiration or illusions line for power shatters as the boons are terrible, removing yet more build diversity.

Mesmers already have more escape/disengage than many other classes without PU, possibly including warrior at this point (I’ve been running gs/s+sh, bulls, full cd reduction, and warriors sprint and I can barely escape from mesmers running Blink and Traveller’s runes, and that’s the fastest comp a warrior has).

Despite that, I’m not calling for thief stealth nerfs. Sure, they have some deadly burst from stealth, but it seems to be less of a problem.

Even still, your argument to leave PU as it is would only hold up if most mesmers were traiting it. If they don’t trait it, they aren’t getting the benefit, and evidently they aren’t finding the thief threat sufficient to meet that threat.

If you want stealth completely overhauled, fine, but you aren’t making much of an argument in support of the PU stealth buff. The issue of “build diversity” isn’t solved by keeping a stealth buff on a trait that apparently most mesmers aren’t taking now, and a buff they apparently don’t need anyway.

So just because most don’t need it means it shouldn’t exist in buffed form? That’s silly. There’s a lot of abilities that got buffed so if a class isn’t really using it, revert it? The problem, as has been said a few times, is not stealth. It’s lack of stealth counterplay. If everyone had some access to reveal, this wouldn’t be nearly an issue. The length wouldn’t mean near as much anymore since you can see them.

You give more access to reveal and it doesn’t affect PVE usage (limited as it might be, but still there) while also encouraging counterplay. But instead of looking for these solutions, it’s the desire to push it back down.

I understand this entire thing is meaningless. Us debating it means next to nothing. Neither side is moving really. All I can hope is that A-net leaves the skill mostly alone (tapping it by a second or two wouldn’t hurt much I’m sure) and looks at ways to fix stealth as a skill. If that patch is today then we’ll see which way A-net is leaning.

Choppy.4183:

apharma.3741:

Stealth needs a viable counter, a way to reveal someone who is in stealth

Is that clear enough for you? The problem isn’t stealth, the problem is the lack of a real counter which any decent game puts in. Seriously, think of all the good games with stealth in, they always have a way to unstealth people.

Nerfing PU back to pre patch will only nerf Mesmer escapes to the point they will no longer be able to escape without using MI in WvW. In PvP it’ll just make people run inspiration or illusions line for power shatters as the boons are terrible, removing yet more build diversity.

Mesmers already have more escape/disengage than many other classes without PU, possibly including warrior at this point (I’ve been running gs/s+sh, bulls, full cd reduction, and warriors sprint and I can barely escape from mesmers running Blink and Traveller’s runes, and that’s the fastest comp a warrior has).

Despite that, I’m not calling for thief stealth nerfs. Sure, they have some deadly burst from stealth, but it seems to be less of a problem.

Even still, your argument to leave PU as it is would only hold up if most mesmers were traiting it. If they don’t trait it, they aren’t getting the benefit, and evidently they aren’t finding the thief threat sufficient to meet that threat.

If you want stealth completely overhauled, fine, but you aren’t making much of an argument in support of the PU stealth buff. The issue of “build diversity” isn’t solved by keeping a stealth buff on a trait that apparently most mesmers aren’t taking now, and a buff they apparently don’t need anyway.

How can thief stealth be a no issue yet with a Mesmer they are so many problems? We have to set up our burst. All allowing counter play. If slotting mirror images then that’s a utility spot lost. Thief press 1 button over and over along with amazing gap closers and stealth. Honestly imo Mesmer has been such a non issue except running into the rare mega player that people are raging over everything. Being able to keep up with a Nike warrior!!! Unbelievable!! The horror. This cannot be!!

Choppy.4183:

apharma.3741:

Stealth needs a viable counter, a way to reveal someone who is in stealth

Is that clear enough for you? The problem isn’t stealth, the problem is the lack of a real counter which any decent game puts in. Seriously, think of all the good games with stealth in, they always have a way to unstealth people.

Nerfing PU back to pre patch will only nerf Mesmer escapes to the point they will no longer be able to escape without using MI in WvW. In PvP it’ll just make people run inspiration or illusions line for power shatters as the boons are terrible, removing yet more build diversity.

Mesmers already have more escape/disengage than many other classes without PU, possibly including warrior at this point (I’ve been running gs/s+sh, bulls, full cd reduction, and warriors sprint and I can barely escape from mesmers running Blink and Traveller’s runes, and that’s the fastest comp a warrior has).

Despite that, I’m not calling for thief stealth nerfs. Sure, they have some deadly burst from stealth, but it seems to be less of a problem.

Even still, your argument to leave PU as it is would only hold up if most mesmers were traiting it. If they don’t trait it, they aren’t getting the benefit, and evidently they aren’t finding the thief threat sufficient to meet that threat.

If you want stealth completely overhauled, fine, but you aren’t making much of an argument in support of the PU stealth buff. The issue of “build diversity” isn’t solved by keeping a stealth buff on a trait that apparently most mesmers aren’t taking now, and a buff they apparently don’t need anyway.

With traveler runes, not all mesmers run traveler and I’m sorry but forcing a class to use a specific rune set is the epitome of reducing build diversity. Can a Mesmer catch your warrior without traveler runes? No chance, not one chance at all, I mean absolute 0 unless you literally are asleep at the wheel.

It’s obvious why PU was buffed initially, because no-one was using it outside one build in one game mode. There is only one build I frequently came across that did and that was the clone death condition build which was useless outside of WvW. Now clone deaths are gone, guess how useful the old PU would be right now? Yep not at all, hence the buff.

As a Mesmer that doesn’t run traveler runes, I could never hope to escape in WvW before PU was buffed without using MI or blink+decoy+prayer, now I can with decoy which means I no longer feel I have to run MI to survive, I can afford time warp if I pick up torch and decoy with PU.

If people feel MI is too long, I already made a suggestion of making PU +2 seconds but evidently it seems everyone is on an agenda to make PU as useless now as it was before.

@warlord of chaos, what is cancerous to this game are comments like yours that just want to see traits, skills and classes nerfed to the point they aren’t worth using. That is what got mesmer (and other classes) into the poor state they were in.

Man, you guys sure like to squirrel a lot. Nowhere did I say mesmers should have to run Travellers runes, I said I could barely escape one as a warrior with a full run comp. With regular stealth and that same mobility, I expect those same mesmers could escape me. Besides, aren’t mesmers getting a speed buff trait as a minor when HoT drops?

My mesmer also doesn’t have travellers, and as a noob I survived every party wipe and thief gank without breaking a sweat, while still contributing solid damage pressure throughout fights. That seems right to you?

Choppy.4183:

Man, you guys sure like to squirrel a lot. Nowhere did I say mesmers should have to run Travellers runes, I said I could barely escape one as a warrior with a full run comp. With regular stealth and that same mobility, I expect those same mesmers could escape me. Besides, aren’t mesmers getting a speed buff trait as a minor when HoT drops?

My mesmer also doesn’t have travellers, and as a noob I survived every party wipe and thief gank without breaking a sweat, while still contributing solid damage pressure throughout fights. That seems right to you?

They get it as part of the elite specialisation, which means you have to give up a trait line for it, you’d have to run chaos, chrono and something else. In my opinion it would be quite a bit trade off as other traits and lines would synergies better with chrono than PU.

Squirrelling, you’ve done plenty of that, so answer my questions.

Would any Mesmer without traveler runes have a hope of catching your warrior? What about thief, ele (DD, FGS), ranger, necro, engy and all their large amounts of swiftness?

Would you like to see more actual counters to stealth in the form of 30-40s CD aoe reveal skills so we can have meaningful stealth play?

Does +2 duration sound like an ok compromise? As it would significantly shave off MI, keep veil function and reduce decoy and torch by 1s as well as reduce the effectiveness of the torch trait.

Choppy.4183:

My mesmer also doesn’t have travellers, and as a noob I survived every party wipe and thief gank without breaking a sweat, while still contributing solid damage pressure throughout fights. That seems right to you?

I was able to do that the same day I reached 80 on my Thief. So…yes? If you, like mentioned above, have trouble escaping on a Thief, you’re doing something very very wrong. (Edit: Apart from being 100-0-ed instantly of course, but PU won’t save you there either)

Ele with Fiery GS can escape well too. Anyway, for further proof that Anet just doesn’t care about people escaping when roaming, look no further than the Necromancer.

Mostly just a bunch of bug fixes this patch. Woot! We’re still good

Tealots.6095:

Well, the whole point of stealth is to attack from it…

As far as counterplay, there are maneuvers one can perform. (With the exception of the PU stealth duration) You can time attacks. Thieves, if they run DP, have a very predictable stealth duration, dodging backstabs is not unheard of. And other defenses can be prepared if you miss that. Mesmer stealth is the real problem right now because you can cross an entire map stealthed with abilities that have short cooldowns.

The counterplay is simply knowing what to expect from the stealthed class. What’s more dangerous, actually, are the classes that become stealthed by Mass Invisibility or Shadow Refuge.

I’m aware, I play at both ends since I play everything except ranger. But I was talking about more generalized terms, especially as compared to other games within the genre, the stealth counterplay here is low to non existent.

Morfedel.4165:

apharma.3741:

He’s right, i just tried it and my Mesmer can stack stealth upon itself and it increases the duration of the initial Mesmer stealth. I’m sure it didn’t at one point but I can admit when I’m wrong and will alter my post accordingly.

I could be wrong but it appears veil doesn’t stack with veil. I used mimic-veil then casted veil again as the first one started to fail, ran through the second and stealth dropped anyway.

Not a big deal, I can just mimic-veil-mass invisible-veil instead but it surprised me v and fit me killed running through arah :-)

So I realize several people here are enjoying the argument that’s ensuing, but has anyone else observed the above observation I made, or is this something everyone else has known about for some time and I just now picked it up? LOL

Guess I did because I hadnt had two mesmers try to throw down veils close to each other, and it’s only with mimic that I could do it myself. Just wanted to make sure my observation was accurate.

apharma.3741:

Squirrelling, you’ve done plenty of that, so answer my questions.

Would any Mesmer without traveler runes have a hope of catching your warrior? What about thief, ele (DD, FGS), ranger, necro, engy and all their large amounts of swiftness?

Would you like to see more actual counters to stealth in the form of 30-40s CD aoe reveal skills so we can have meaningful stealth play?

Does +2 duration sound like an ok compromise? As it would significantly shave off MI, keep veil function and reduce decoy and torch by 1s as well as reduce the effectiveness of the torch trait.

Catch my warrior? Probably not.
Catch a waarior that isn’t running the spediest comp possible? Sure, no problem.
Escape from my speedy warrior build? Yup, can do that too.

More counters to stealth? Yeah, that’d be great. It’s a much bigger ask in terms of work though, and it hardly seems reasonable to use that as a reason to keep the excessive stealth buff on PU. Even with out PU, mesmers have the second most access to stealth in the game. Is the argument seriously, “Stealth is broken and needs more counterplay now! In the meantime, meaner stealth should be greater even though nobody ever asked for that.”?

I already said 1-2 secs would probably be fine, it would just require testing. 1s because it was working before, 2s because I don’t think it would be a huge problem but don’t know. I also said I’d support a buff to Veil unttaited.

Regarding whether PU is OP or not, I don’t think its any more OP than any other stealth practiced by the thief.

I remember one match in pvp where a thief one-shotted me with 16k backstabs three times that match. I’d never been hit so hard by another player and was shocked. 16K? Well, I was running zerker or assassin amulet, something like that, switched to something less glassy, ran into the same thief and did better.

I think the real problem with fighting someone who is all stealthy and smashy is when you yourself are running full offensive gear; it allows them to hit you hard from a place of safety.

That leaves me with a few thoughts:

1. don’t run full offensive gear. I was dueling a thief who was incredibly bursty, when I was glassy as well, even with full cloak, he got the better of me. I switched to celestial gear with traveller runes, and I beat him every time. I could survive his burst, and cloak/defend enough to get him off me until I put him on his back.

Watched a warrior do the same thing to the same thief, switched to slightly less offensive gear and used lots of AOE huge distance spanning weapon swings and took the thief out. If he was in his zerker gear, bang, dead. This isnt the only example, but its the most recent one.

2. Really Strong AOEs: especially with CC components, if it’s somewhat spammable then you can put down the cloaker without ever seeing him. Reasonable? Maybe. Its hard to know if you are hitting the thief/mesmer, and it can be frustrating to be swinging blind wondering if you are hitting anything.

3. Incredibly strong condi with defensive play. I’ve put down thieves I didnt see but once. He came out of cloak, I pounded him with condis then went full defensive … about 15 seconds later he dropped onto his back, from cloak. And this was before the patch.

4. Cloak needs more Counterplay? Perhaps saying “dont run full offensive gear” isn’t really a fair response. If so, not much we, the players, can do about it except to ask for some counterplay measure. But we can’t have too much of that or it makes stealth worthless. We can make suggestions until we turn blue in the face, though, and so far all we have is a couple classes with reveal options. Better than nothing but still.

I can’t say which is the correct paradigm in this. I have been mainlining mesmer since day one and I love it. But I can understand how a non-cloaking character can find it frustrating. Hell, fighting thieves has always been frustrating for me, and with PU updated I feel I can do it better now, though I had two builds that did it decently beforehand (condi shatter and PU phantasm). I think I did ok with my necro a few times, it was built to be really tanky and the thieves I fought found it hard to put me down, though I never really could nail them either.

Incidentally, I may make a new build just to irritate/troll people in wvw roaming, heh. Take PU and as many of the on dodge/block traits, making clones, phantasmal defender, mirror/reflection, etc, on a full bunker set with doylak runes and the mesmer healing signet. I know, it won’t accomplish anything, just for fun to tweak people’s noses.

Actually my dolyak runes are currently on a PVT set, maybe i’ll just leave it on that and keep some offensive options. Still…

So just for the heck of it, my troll irritation build:

http://intothemists.com/calc/?build=VR;4k2lz067sU-71;9;4TUV;0148137256;9;119cV19cV;0kvVJFYv;2meo9ret9wey9S

Its not complete, btw. Some possible variations I could see might include:

1) Switch healing signet to reflection heal and then change Chaos II to Chaos III and mirror images to arcane thievery
2) switch weapon set to Sw/Sw + GS (I went with the current set both for more stealth and more blocking/evasion)
3) Switch Mirror Image to null field and mass invis to time warp, then change Inspiration VII to Inspiration IX (but then you are kinda getting away from using stealth, which defeats the purpose )
4) switch to pure bunker gear, but then you really arent going to be contributing much at all heh

Warlord of Chaos.7845:

I know I am late to this post, but I feel PU needs to be nerfed so hard that no one ever uses it again.

Ahhh the 25/90 treatment. Because it worked so well the first time around.

Besetment.9187:

Warlord of Chaos.7845:

I know I am late to this post, but I feel PU needs to be nerfed so hard that no one ever uses it again.

Ahhh the 25/90 treatment. Because it worked so well the first time around.

It killed a skill that needed killing, in a very nonsubtle way. Anyways, PU doesn’t deserve that treatment, stealth in general needs it.

There’s also that vindictive side of people as seen with Warlord of Chaos’ comment that sometimes makes me wonder if people actually think something is deserving of a nerf, or they just don’t like it and want to see it nerfed because of that. I get annoyed when a necro chain fears me or saves DS fear for my heal(since the cds sync almost perfectly), but that doesn’t mean its broken and needs to be nerfed.

It seems no matter the game or balancing, there are always people who hate stealth or mechanics that make it impossible to see your opponent. It makes them feel powerless and instead of getting better at predicting or learning the ins and outs of the class, its a lot easier to just hope that mechanic gets nerfed into uselessness.

Obviously not all of you are like this and some have specific reasons for why you think it should be changed, but judging from mesmer’s history with nerfs, when tons of people cry out for nerfs to everything mesmer, it usually leaves mesmers very unhappy with the state of the class and the whining people no wiser about how to combat mesmers than when they started.

Choppy.4183
They could use a tweak or two, yeah. I’m currently lobbying to have the stealth buff on PU reverted to what it was, but they’re overall more deadly without it (most quality mesmers don’t run it in favour of more burst).
I’ve come across large groups of mesmers lately, which is an indication that something may not be right. I don’t know if it’s a matter of them (or others) needing changes or just a matter of figuring out a counter for them. I think I’m currently on the side of letting it ride until HoT drops unless it becomes unbearable.
I don’t have a great warrior build to counter mesmers 1v1 at the moment (I can kill them, but generally not vs equal skill), but it gets worse pretty quickly as you add other mesmers into the mix.
(edited Yesterday, 21:59 by Choppy.4183)
Yesterday, 21:38
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This was posted in the warrior forums. I find it funny he says rice it out. The same thing I said yet was called a troll. The real troll shows his face.