What they should have done is simply buffed Veil to 7s and MI to 10 and not buffed PU at all.
@denis
How is that being a troll? I disclosed that I’m lobbying to reduce the PU stealth bonus, which I am in this thread, while suggesting the broader concerns about mesmers being raised in that thread should probably be left to ride for a bit.
How could I be any more transparent and sympathetic to mesmers there?
(edited by Choppy.4183)
I know I am late to this post, but I feel PU needs to be nerfed so hard that no one ever uses it again.
Ahhh the 25/90 treatment. Because it worked so well the first time around.
It killed a skill that needed killing, in a very nonsubtle way. Anyways, PU doesn’t deserve that treatment, stealth in general needs it.
It didn’t need killing. Thats the point. The effective removal of smiter’s boon from GW1 pvp didn’t stop smiteway groups in team arenas. They just dropped a smite monk for a WoH healer until cumulative balance patches made the whole concept unviable.
Since every player and their mother was no longer packing Smite Hex and Smite Condition in team arena, guess what: the flavour of the month went back to hex/condition pressure (later with eles instead of rangers). That eventually turned into MBway which dominated TA and RA – eles spamming distortion, liquid flame and immolate for free because mind blast + aura of restoration meant you always had more energy than you could ever realistically spend.
So people started asking for immolate, mind blast and distortion to get the s-boon treatment except that never happened because TA got replaced by codex arena instead, about a year after boon gate.
When you nerf a skill to uselessness, all you do is reduce complexity. That doesn’t mean PU’s functionality cannot change but the whole idea of deliberately making PU or stealth completely useless is such a stupid idea, you should feel terrible for even thinking it. If you remember s-boon you were there. You have seen this before and it didn’t work.
Its like people want mesmer to be less new player friendly by raising the skill level required to perform, but at the same time want to reduce build diversity and lower the skill ceiling so that good mesmers have a harder time avoiding damage the way they were intended to. Mesmers should have a higher skill cap to dissuade new players, but also a lower skill cap so experienced players can’t pull off the feats they do currently. And then some just want to nuke PU from orbit because they don’t like fighting it so obviously it shouldn’t even be a viable choice.
I honestly see a very healthy mix of mesmer builds in SPvP, whereas prior to the patch it was almost all zerker shatter builds with maybe a few Maim builds here and there.
I know I am late to this post, but I feel PU needs to be nerfed so hard that no one ever uses it again.
Ahhh the 25/90 treatment. Because it worked so well the first time around.
It killed a skill that needed killing, in a very nonsubtle way. Anyways, PU doesn’t deserve that treatment, stealth in general needs it.
It didn’t need killing. Thats the point. The effective removal of smiter’s boon from GW1 pvp didn’t stop smiteway groups in team arenas. They just dropped a smite monk for a WoH healer until cumulative balance patches made the whole concept unviable.
Since every player and their mother was no longer packing Smite Hex and Smite Condition in team arena, guess what: the flavour of the month went back to hex/condition pressure (later with eles instead of rangers). That eventually turned into MBway which dominated TA and RA – eles spamming distortion, liquid flame and immolate for free because mind blast + aura of restoration meant you always had more energy than you could ever realistically spend.
So people started asking for immolate, mind blast and distortion to get the s-boon treatment except that never happened because TA got replaced by codex arena instead, about a year after boon gate.
When you nerf a skill to uselessness, all you do is reduce complexity. That doesn’t mean PU’s functionality cannot change but the whole idea of deliberately making PU or stealth completely useless is such a stupid idea, you should feel terrible for even thinking it. If you remember s-boon you were there. You have seen this before and it didn’t work.
What you’re describing are meta changes, not reducing complexity. Sboon was so strong it negated too many other options. The way it was handled was kinda trollmode but it did open up several other options, whether those options were as “toxic”/“stale” or not is another question. Also, GvG (and to a lesser extent HA) were the main sources of PvP balance changes, and for those removing Sboon was a step in the right direction. Nerfing stealth to a degree that it’s mainly a mechanic used for a “first strike” and not so prevalent in combat as a “waiting out on their cooldowns” would be an interesting first step.
EDIT:
Altho in the end, I don’t think GW2 PvP in general can be balanced as GW1 PvP was simply because the main game modes are so different. Objective based gameplay of GvG and the push and pull between holding your base, attacking the opponents’ and keeping morale boost/preventing theirs, created far more opportunities than a simple cap and hold mode like conquest.
(edited by Elorna.5329)
Catch my warrior? Probably not.
Catch a waarior that isn’t running the spediest comp possible? Sure, no problem.
Escape from my speedy warrior build? Yup, can do that too.More counters to stealth? Yeah, that’d be great. It’s a much bigger ask in terms of work though, and it hardly seems reasonable to use that as a reason to keep the excessive stealth buff on PU. Even with out PU, mesmers have the second most access to stealth in the game. Is the argument seriously, “Stealth is broken and needs more counterplay now! In the meantime, meaner stealth should be greater even though nobody ever asked for that.”?
I already said 1-2 secs would probably be fine, it would just require testing. 1s because it was working before, 2s because I don’t think it would be a huge problem but don’t know. I also said I’d support a buff to Veil unttaited.
Most warriors I come across have either a sword main hand or GS, put simply as a Mesmer there’s no way in hell I can catch them (without traveler) if they decide to run and use those leaps/gap openers. They aren’t even built for speed, I know, I’ve run it with strength runes, just whirl and rush outta there, only thieves would be able to chase. I couldn’t even catch most other classes as they have better swiftness.
Actually now is the perfect time to be asking for counters to stealth. Trapper runes will allow guards to stealth, Rangers and engineers can already stack it nicely for some surprises, we’re in no shortage of QQ over thief stealth and now mesmers. However we should have had this from day flippin 1 not day 1000+ and maybe thief might have been balanced instead of what it is today.
Stealth needed counterplay when the game launched. Which is why I say, there’s no issue with PU, the issue is with something that should have been here from the beginning but never was. This isn’t new, it’s just made more relevant now not just thieves can easily stealth for longer than 5s.
As for the 2s argument, Anet metrics or something said people weren’t using PU in a way they wanted. Someone at Anet obviously felt it was a poor trait before the patch and I agree, however reverting the boons would make PU grossly overpowered. Seriously, we’ve been there, it was incredibly defensive in its first iteration. So they buffed the other aspect, stealth duration. Putting it back to 1s puts us back to bad trait land, we shouldn’t go back to that and it certainly doesn’t make it a build defining trait. It would have to be at least +2s otherwise it would never be used.
(edited by apharma.3741)
Stealth’s counterplay in SPvP is the fact that you can’t hold points or greatly support your team’s damage while in it. When the objective is get the most points as fast as possible, doesn’t matter if you never die, if it takes you 2 minutes to get a cap and then takes the enemy 10 seconds of fighting you to decap it, you lost.
In WvW, stealth disruptor traps are a thing, and a thing that will pretty much guarantee that anyone caught in range won’t be stealthing to escape. But I can see it now, “That doesn’t count because no one can use the traps while roaming or in 1v1’s”. That’s because WvW isn’t for roaming or small group fights. What more could you ask for? 1200 range AoE reveal that can hit up to 20 targets and reveal for 30 seconds. Heck, the person in stealth doesn’t even have to be the one to trigger it. Phantasm rolls over trap? Guess you just hard countered a Grandmaster trait for 30 seconds. Ta da~
@denis
How is that being a troll? I disclosed that I’m lobbying to reduce the PU stealth bonus, which I am in this thread, while suggesting the broader concerns about mesmers being raised in that thread should probably be left to ride for a bit.How could I be any more transparent and sympathetic to mesmers there?
Choppy please look back. When I said leave it and let it settle you accused me of being an engineer lobbying for grenade damage to leave it, and called me a troll. I find it amusing you say 1 thing over there and another over here.
I play PU condi mesmer is pvp/wvw.
and it is extemely op and more strong stealth than thief.
difrerent between thief and mesmer stealth = mesmer can instant stealth and stealth duration also stacks whicb means i can stay stealth whenever i want faster and stay almost forever. But as a thief we need to either land that cnd or hs bp combo to get in stealth. (ofc we can instant stealth too but which means we have to sacrifice our long cd UTILITY SKILL which is used for escape/life saver utility.) And basically do not forget mesmer gets clones+stealth with lot of boons and lot more hp+defensive skills and btw stealth is basically thief’s mechanic not mesmer’s. Mesmer’s more like clone phantasm type of mechanic. Giving mesmer better stealth than thief is just not right.
(edited by MidoriMarch.8067)
@Denis
I’m at a loss to explain your inability to comprehend those posts. What I’ve written is a matter of public record, same as you. I’ll leave it to others to make up their own minds, but clearly you need to read more carefully.
denis.9487
Because it doesn’t effect any game mode. Roaming is not supported. Why shouldn’t the Mesmer have access to a longer escape stealth. Pay attention to the Mesmer burst set ups and counter. If the Mesmer runs so what. Your mad because you cannot kill the Mesmer as easily. The patch has been here 2 weeks. There will be many counters let it shape up. Just nerfing skills because you or anyone has problems is not a reason to nerf something.
Yesterday, 15:19
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@Denis
You’re contradicting yourself. If it doesn’t affect any game mode that matters, as far as you’re concerned, then it shouldn’t matter to you if it gets rolled back.But then you ask why mesmers shouldn’t have long escape, suggesting that it matters on some level. And to that I say they already have it, which is why mesmers without PU are perfectly viable.
The long PU stealth makes that escape, and even mid-fight breathing room, OP relative to the rest of the game. You want long stealth like a thief? Would you be willing to shorten the range and increase the CD on Blink for it? Lower your health pool, perhaps? Increase the shatter skill CD and have it shared across all of them as a global cooldown? I wouldn’t, because it would gut mesmers, but that’s the sort of price thieves pay for their stealth.
Honestly, you sound like the Engineers that claimed Grenadier was balanced while glitched.
Just to set the record straight.
@apharma
it sounds like you’re talking about the way things were. You should be able to catch a fleeing warrior with just blink and a greatsword now, if the warrior is low on health and only packing a sword or a gs. If he has both, you likely won’t catch him without travelers, but blink plus stealth (even just one skill) should be more than enough to escape from him if you need to.
In case you didn’t know, speed buffs don’t affect movement skills anymore, and it also appears that run skills (so, every skill but sword 2) took an additional speed nerf. Combine that with the baseline buff to blink range and you actually cover pretty comparable ground. If you can give yourself swiftness, a warrior gs 5 skill won’t even close the gap in combat.
In the old days, a gs plus a speed buff and bulls charge made it really tough for a mesmer to escape, now, not so much. Warrior mobility is significantly downgraded atm and you don’t need PU to escape them or most other classes.
So enjoy the new found freedom, mesmers are no longer a pokey class! Necros are pretty boned there though.
@Necrotize
Stealth traps… lol. Perhaps open field acs too, eh? Actually, wait, if we can use acs against mesmers, we’d better buff mesmers now!! Amirite? C’mon man, you’re proposing stealth traps as counter play to a trait that didn’t need to be buffed in the first place and that many members don’t even use. Lmao
(edited by Choppy.4183)
This thread has become nothing but a crusading ground for whiny Warriors and others. You might as well rename the thread “Come Here To Cry About Mesmers”. Or better yet, just lock it.
Mesmer stealth is where it should be, and where it should’ve been all along. The stated design philosophy of Mesmer defense is “avoid getting hit in the first place”. Stealth ties perfectly into that philosophy on a mechanical level, and stealth also fits Mesmers on a thematic level. We are a light armor class, and from a balance standpoint there is no good reason we should take more damage than other classes unless we have capabilities that make up for it.
In short, the current state of Mesmer stealth makes perfect sense from a design standpoint, and there is a reason Anet’s game designers are paid professionals and you, forum anecdote warriors, are not.
What’s the basis for your claim that mesmer stealth is balanced?
What’s the basis for your claim that mesmer stealth is balanced?
I literally just gave reasons. Real ones from a design standpoint, not “a Mesmer beat me in PvP, nerf pls!”. Apart from that, I have no intention of engaging with you, Warrior. Go back to your own board. Anet’s game designers know better than you. Deal with it.
What’s the basis for your claim that mesmer stealth is balanced?
Honestly if you came into this forum looking for help you would have received a much better welcome. By posting your sour experiences then concluding to nerf instead of learn you sort of shot yourself in the foot. Your posts are nothing but hate trying to mobilize a movement. When caught you ignore the facts and continue to try and stir the pot.
By my count, more people have acknowledged PU stealth is excessive than not. I also didn’t post sour experiences, I identified the balance issue both as an opponent and as someone running the trait. That you interpret that as “hate trying to mobilize a movement” to nerf the class says more about you than me.
Stating stealth fits mesmers thematically is not a demonstration that it’s balanced, and we’re just taking about a specific trait here, not the class as a whole. Thanks for coming out though.
(edited by Choppy.4183)
I play PU condi mesmer is pvp/wvw.
and it is extemely op and more strong stealth than thief.
difrerent between thief and mesmer stealth = mesmer can instant stealth and stealth duration also stacks whicb means i can stay stealth whenever i want faster and stay almost forever. But as a thief we need to either land that cnd or hs bp combo to get in stealth. (ofc we can instant stealth too but which means we have to sacrifice our long cd UTILITY SKILL which is used for escape/life saver utility.) And basically do not forget mesmer gets clones+stealth with lot of boons and lot more hp+defensive skills and btw stealth is basically thief’s mechanic not mesmer’s. Mesmer’s more like clone phantasm type of mechanic. Giving mesmer better stealth than thief is just not right.
… you do realize MI is a long cooldown utility skill … right? O_o
I play PU condi mesmer is pvp/wvw.
and it is extemely op and more strong stealth than thief.
difrerent between thief and mesmer stealth = mesmer can instant stealth and stealth duration also stacks whicb means i can stay stealth whenever i want faster and stay almost forever. But as a thief we need to either land that cnd or hs bp combo to get in stealth. (ofc we can instant stealth too but which means we have to sacrifice our long cd UTILITY SKILL which is used for escape/life saver utility.) And basically do not forget mesmer gets clones+stealth with lot of boons and lot more hp+defensive skills and btw stealth is basically thief’s mechanic not mesmer’s. Mesmer’s more like clone phantasm type of mechanic. Giving mesmer better stealth than thief is just not right.… you do realize MI is a long cooldown utility skill … right? O_o
Stealth on torch + decoy is more than enough
By my count, more people have acknowledged PU stealth is excessive than not. I also didn’t post sour experiences, I identified the balance issue both as an opponent and as someone running the trait. That you interpret that as “hate trying to mobilize a movement” to nerf the class says more about you than me.
Stating stealth fits mesmers thematically is not a demonstration that it’s balanced, and we’re just taking about a specific trait here, not the class as a whole. Thanks for coming out though.
You keep posting then editing or taking down words. Your magical claim to nerf a trait is because you ran it in wvw and your party died and you survived. I have been around and around this bush with you. The constant changing of posts, posting contradicting posts in different forums just proves that you are grasping at anything to justify nerfing a defensive trait. All this time can you imagine if you just went into a dueling arena and actually fought a Mesmer might just figure out that tough nut.
You keep posting then editing or taking down words. Your magical claim to nerf a trait is because you ran it in wvw and your party died and you survived. I have been around and around this bush with you. The constant changing of posts, posting contradicting posts in different forums just proves that you are grasping at anything to justify nerfing a defensive trait. All this time can you imagine if you just went into a dueling arena and actually fought a Mesmer might just figure out that tough nut.
I haven’t changed anything you’ve been commenting on. I just added a bit to my comment to apharma about warrior mobility, basically saying “have fun”. I’m a monster, I know.
My posts aren’t contradictory, you just lack the requisite comprehension skills to understand them.
As a point of clarification, I’m talking about reverting a trait back to where it was two weeks ago, with no complaints then of being underpowered by anybody, or possibly increasing the stealth from where it was then but less than where it is now. I’ve also supported a stealth buff to Veil. That’s not a call to nerf the class, and the very post of mine you quoted from the warrior forum specifically said it’d be better to not nerf the class despite the appearance of mesmers being a bit OP at the moment.
Some of the justifications for the PU reduction include:
None of the above is in balance with other classes… any of them. Other classes have their own issues, for sure, but clinging to an obviously unbalanced trait buff because other classes might have their own things that need to be adjusted is incredibly short sighted. Rolling back on that trait isn’t a nerf to the core of the mesmer class either, nor does it impede build diversity.
(edited by Choppy.4183)
You keep posting then editing or taking down words. Your magical claim to nerf a trait is because you ran it in wvw and your party died and you survived. I have been around and around this bush with you. The constant changing of posts, posting contradicting posts in different forums just proves that you are grasping at anything to justify nerfing a defensive trait. All this time can you imagine if you just went into a dueling arena and actually fought a Mesmer might just figure out that tough nut.
I haven’t changed anything you’ve been commenting on. I just added a bit to my comment to apharma about warrior mobility, basically saying “have fun”. I’m a monster, I know.
My posts aren’t contradictory, you just lack the requisite comprehension skills to understand them.
As a point of clarification, I’m talking about reverting a trait back to where it was two weeks ago, sitting with no complaints of being underpowered by anybody, or possibly increasing the stealth from where it was still than where it is now. I’ve also supported a stealth buff to Veil. That’s not a call to nerf the class, and the very post of mine you quoted from the warrior forum specifically said it’d be better to not nerf the class despite the appearance of mesmers being a bit OP at the moment.
Some of the justifications for the PU reduction include:
- the amount of stealth a mesmer can generate by simply activating skills (i.e. no hit has to be landed; almost no counterplay) outclasses every other stealth class by a country mile
- this stealth is stackable
- the aoe party stealth (MI) has a 1200 radius, affects 10 people, and provides the effective stealth duration of a full Shadow Refuge without the need to stack in an identifiable small area (no counterplay)
- put 5 mesmers in a havoc, and they can provide almost a full minute worth of stealth to their entire party plus another havoc, creating an insane advantage in combat
- that same havoc could, in principle remain permanently stealthed without giving any indication whatsoever of their presence on the battlefield or in a structure
- even one 10s MI is an incredible advantage on the battlefield matched by no other elite (or any other skill) in the game
- terrible mesmers (like me) can survive total party wipes of actually capable people because the stealth combined with escape is so good
- the combination of this enhanced stealth plus the regular mesmer defensive advantages (clones, cc, defensive buffs, evades, etc) make running full zerk shatter insanely easy, whereas other classes actually have to put themselves at risk to go glass
None of the above is in balance with other classes… any of them. Other classes have their own issues, for sure, but clinging to an obviously unbalanced trait buff because other classes might have their own things that need to be adjusted is incredibly short sighted. Rolling back on that trait isn’t a nerf to the core of the mesmer class either, nor does it impede build diversity.
Have you read your warrior post? There are more mesmers something is up. When another Mesmer enters it gets tough how about when any other class comes it gets tough hence the random nature of wvw. Most mesmers don’t use pu they burst harder without it. Then you come here and share a lovely story how a trait let you escape while your havoc party died. Maybe if you traited another line you could actually helped. The trait worked it let you survive.
So nerf a working trait even though Mesmer can burst harder with another line and can still stealth burst?
Just to shed some light. Warrior run sword sword longbow condition. U will own Mesmer or force a draw. Warrior has good passive healing and sword offers gap or escape options. Immobilize torment bleeds burns. Destroys clones and phantasms so really hard to burst. Fought one for 15 minutes was a draw. He killed me at a camp because stealth does nothing when taking objectives so I was caught out in the open.
Warrior own Mesmer?!? Seriously!? It’s the other way around; the Warriors say it and live it and so do the Mesmers.
Anyway, +100% stealth duration is insanely powerful. +33%, no stacking, but undo the way-back nerf and get rid of the swiftness and might from the buff list. That seems fair.
I play PU condi mesmer is pvp/wvw.
and it is extemely op and more strong stealth than thief.
difrerent between thief and mesmer stealth = mesmer can instant stealth and stealth duration also stacks whicb means i can stay stealth whenever i want faster and stay almost forever. But as a thief we need to either land that cnd or hs bp combo to get in stealth. (ofc we can instant stealth too but which means we have to sacrifice our long cd UTILITY SKILL which is used for escape/life saver utility.) And basically do not forget mesmer gets clones+stealth with lot of boons and lot more hp+defensive skills and btw stealth is basically thief’s mechanic not mesmer’s. Mesmer’s more like clone phantasm type of mechanic. Giving mesmer better stealth than thief is just not right.
Yeah, it’s not like one of the mesmers stealth skills does an AoE blast which will reveal you…oh wait it does, silly me. Oh and they need to use a precious utility slot as well for that other instant 3-6s stealth, shucks, seems that isn’t so great. Hey, they got 5-10s of stealth for up to 10 people in a large range, yeah it’s OP, we’ll forget about the extremely telegraphed 1.75s cast which is so easy to interrupt.
Anyone saying mesmer has better stealth than thief is just plain wrong. Thieves get it as part of their weapons, unless you’re running S/P but that’s the only exception. You can stealth whenever for 3s base, 4s traited and stack duration by repeating to get 5-7s or even up to 12s. Your burst has no cool down as its a normal attack from stealth. You have as many low cool down gap openers if not more as mesmer, one of which is your class ability. SR is also a heal, sure you have to sit in it when you enter but by now that isn’t much of a problem for most competent thieves.
PU condi builds got nuked from orbit. Only people your killing are bad people. No more clone death, maim the disillusioned nerfed, quite frankly as long as they have a decent condition cleanse for what I’ll assume is your perplexity runes they can mow down your clones and laugh. No decent player gets confused by clones for more than 1s. People love to say it’s a defence of Mesmer but it’s not.
However I will say this, thief got some very unnecessary nerfs or slight nerfs this time, shadows embrace for one.
I play PU condi mesmer is pvp/wvw.
and it is extemely op and more strong stealth than thief.
difrerent between thief and mesmer stealth = mesmer can instant stealth and stealth duration also stacks whicb means i can stay stealth whenever i want faster and stay almost forever. But as a thief we need to either land that cnd or hs bp combo to get in stealth. (ofc we can instant stealth too but which means we have to sacrifice our long cd UTILITY SKILL which is used for escape/life saver utility.) And basically do not forget mesmer gets clones+stealth with lot of boons and lot more hp+defensive skills and btw stealth is basically thief’s mechanic not mesmer’s. Mesmer’s more like clone phantasm type of mechanic. Giving mesmer better stealth than thief is just not right.… you do realize MI is a long cooldown utility skill … right? O_o
its not a real mesmer player its a crying thief main that pretends to be a mesmer and hopes to get mesmers nerfed.
mesmers should stick to clones and phantasms is what this person is saying..lol. we always and always had stealth and there is no reason to slot all stealth utility. one of these needs to be blink anyways. and u will sacrifice speedbuff for torch offhand too… but oh well thieves are kittenhurt because now that we can actually fight them they are so so sad that they can 222222 for the win anymore.
As a point of clarification, I’m talking about reverting a trait back to where it was two weeks ago, with no complaints then of being underpowered by anybody, or possibly increasing the stealth from where it was then but less than where it is now.
No complaints have happened because they happened months ago when PU was initially nerfed so that one condi clone death build wasn’t as strong. Since then clone death condi has been removed and condi nerfed a fair bit for mesmer, this includes the nerf to all condis to allow stacking over 25 etc.
- the amount of stealth a mesmer can generate by simply activating skills (i.e. no hit has to be landed; almost no counterplay) outclasses every other stealth class by a country mile
A thief, engineer, ranger (trapper) and soon to be guardian can do this, no hits needed for 3s of stealth which feeds directly into…
- this stealth is stackable
So is the above mentioned classes. Additionally because engineers and thieves can produce smoke fields they can even grant stealth to others who have some clue of the combo system. Additionally smoke fields can give 15s of stealth if everyone blasts it and happens within 1s.
- the aoe party stealth (MI) has a 1200 radius, affects 10 people, and provides the effective stealth duration of a full Shadow Refuge without the need to stack in an identifiable small area (no counterplay)
SR base stealth is about 12s iirc, with trait you end up with 16s as it pulses. SR is also on a much lower cooldown AND heals people for healing signet levels of health while inside. Additionally MI has counter play or are you saying thrusting a giant sword into the sky with a big glowey aura for 1.75s is not obvious enough?
- put 5 mesmers in a havoc, and they can provide almost a full minute worth of stealth to their entire party plus another havoc, creating an insane advantage in combat
2 thieves, 1 in each team accomplished the same before and after patch and guess what? You don’t need to dedicate half the mini zerg to one class. Put 5 of anything up and you can find one aspect where you completely dominate.
- that same havoc could, in principle remain permanently stealthed without giving any indication whatsoever of their presence on the battlefield or in a structure
Again with this? I have done this with 1 thief and 2 guards pre patch, can do it after patch. Additionally 1 mesmer cannot hide multiple people long, you would have to dedicate as you say 5 people (and at least an adept and GM major trait on all 5) to that. You would have been better off with a thief.
- even one 10s MI is an incredible advantage on the battlefield matched by no other elite (or any other skill) in the game
SR and blinding powder for thieves. Rampage and that adept major physical trait. Necro lich form or DPS with lifeblast. Warrior warbanner (HUGE game changer matched by nothing else) Guard quickness shout, Timewarp, Supply crate (dependant on group size though)
All the above are as big a game changer if not more so than MI, some have longer CDs but most are about the same or less. Other classes are game changers by there mere presence, like celementalists.
- terrible mesmers (like me) can survive total party wipes of actually capable people because the stealth combined with escape is so good
Ever thought they wiped because you were playing the stealth game on a class you weren’t good at instead of your function? Maybe if you had been using portal and timewarp instead of stealth tricks it would have gone the other way?
Needless to say I do the same on my thief (though I am an ok thief, not great but not pants) and can get out of situations that wipe entire zergs not just party. Same for my zerk ele.
- the combination of this enhanced stealth plus the regular mesmer defensive advantages (clones, cc, defensive buffs, evades, etc) makes running full zerk shatter insanely easy, whereas other classes actually have to put themselves at risk to go glass
Clones don’t fool anyone and the penalties to killing them got removed. Evades are the same as most other classes with the exception of blurred frenzy but you ain’t moving when doing that and is a risk in and of itself. People running the mantra of distraction usually have little to no condi cleanse, without that they don’t have a whole lot of dazes or stuns outside of non torch builds which would make the PU problem less. Make em burn, this is a learn to play issue.
(edited by apharma.3741)
None of the above is in balance with other classes… any of them. Other classes have their own issues, for sure, but clinging to an obviously unbalanced trait buff because other classes might have their own things that need to be adjusted is incredibly short sighted. Rolling back on that trait isn’t a nerf to the core of the mesmer class either, nor does it impede build diversity.
It does impede it. Tell me how many mesmer builds outside that PU clone death build were running PU before the buff? I’ll tell you, almost non. Nerfing the stealth back to where it was pre patch is not the answer as I keep saying.
Make it +2s and MI (the source of a lot of your concerns despite there being bigger game changing elites) has much reduced effect. I’ll tell you what will happen though, people will still complain, people will still ask for it to become 1s, people will still go around saying it’s “broken” OP because at the very core of it all is this one singular fact.
There is and never has been a true counter to stealth
I guess I’ve been using reveal wrong. I’ve been using the lock on trait and Utility Goggles(the perfect mesmer stopper with reveal, vuln, fury, and immunity to blinds) to focus mesmers casting MI, thieves dropping SF, or even just mesmers I know are running decoy right before I CC them. But I guess reveal doesn’t count as a counter to stealth and I must be misunderstanding how reveal interacts with stealth. Heck, if you lost sight of a thief or mesmer, since their best burst requires them to be right on top of you, just keep dropping grenade auto attacks at your feet. Odds are if they try to burst you they’ll become revealed for 6 seconds.
I guess I’ve been using reveal wrong. I’ve been using the lock on trait and Utility Goggles(the perfect mesmer stopper with reveal, vuln, fury, and immunity to blinds) to focus mesmers casting MI, thieves dropping SF, or even just mesmers I know are running decoy right before I CC them. But I guess reveal doesn’t count as a counter to stealth and I must be misunderstanding how reveal interacts with stealth. Heck, if you lost sight of a thief or mesmer, since their best burst requires them to be right on top of you, just keep dropping grenade auto attacks at your feet. Odds are if they try to burst you they’ll become revealed for 6 seconds.
Which is for engineer only, there isn’t much for other classes. Lock on trait still requires that you hit thin (or in the case of charr, fat) air. I know, sick em for rangers and stealth traps in WvW. Stealth traps in WvW need a much lower cost though and sick em is not that great outside of its reveal. We need skills and traits that are generally useful with and without the reveal effect.
I main mesmer and mainly play WvW and sPvP. I feel PU is way too strong at the moment whereas the last iteration of it was OK. The stealth condi mesmer playstyle was already very strong and hard to counter (you can just run away ofc, there’s little to no chase going on in those builds) but now with the added duration and condi changes I feel like it has spun out of control. Even with the removal of clone death builds there’s not enough risk going on for the reward it gives.
I main mesmer and mainly play WvW and sPvP. I feel PU is way too strong at the moment whereas the last iteration of it was OK. The stealth condi mesmer playstyle was already very strong and hard to counter (you can just run away ofc, there’s little to no chase going on in those builds) but now with the added duration and condi changes I feel like it has spun out of control. Even with the removal of clone death builds there’s not enough risk going on for the reward it gives.
Your using pu in pvp? Are you sure you main Mesmer?
i dont see ppl state awhat are the reason mesmer need stealth at all
is it to do burst from stealth?
is it to disengage more freely ?
is it to have you untargeted and reposition better?
is it to engage better?
if its to burst thue all any measure of dmg skills needs to proc revealed (phantasm yes , clones not) – like any thieves skills
if its for disengage than you need to nerf the duration as the duration now gives you free jail card 99%
same if it to reposition (also for thieves but that for other thread)
and same for engage – to be able to come across the map stealth is worng
as other said here all the above give the reason to nerf more the mesmer other skills dmg just because we have more time to engage, disengage and burst freely. instead to invest time in good game play style
I main mesmer and mainly play WvW and sPvP. I feel PU is way too strong at the moment whereas the last iteration of it was OK. The stealth condi mesmer playstyle was already very strong and hard to counter (you can just run away ofc, there’s little to no chase going on in those builds) but now with the added duration and condi changes I feel like it has spun out of control. Even with the removal of clone death builds there’s not enough risk going on for the reward it gives.
Your using pu in pvp? Are you sure you main Mesmer?
IMO, PU is pretty useless except for Courtyard. But right around the corner with Stronghold coming, holy crap. We need to be forward thinking of the future game state since ANet sure doesn’t appear to have it on the radar.
PU for WvW, it’s just meta (most powerful option after Engin/Guard nerfs, probably for any class right now especially paired with burst/glass cannon – which you can set up again and again because of invisibility and no reveal). Anyone claiming otherwise is kidding themselves. Solo/havoc, unbelievably good. Zerg is zerg and better left for the tag-a-lot builds.
IMO, the biggest balance issue with what PU does is when opponents actually play correctly by counter/avoiding the Mesmer’s initial burst incoming by blowing utilities (usually multiple) plus evading/using endurance and you just wait it out with stealth for the next cycle burst while continuing to apply illusions pressure without being revealed. If the illusions are spread apart or if the fail to kill off the phantasms, they are screwed.
@apharma
In the interests of not having an ever-longer post, I’ll try to speak generally about some of your posts instead of responding point for point.
On other classes’ stealth
Yes, other classes have stealth on demand but not for nearly the duration. A PU mesmer could effectively exit any fight at any point now, instantly. Shadow Refuge and any stealth that requires smoke fields give a tell to identify where the character is and where opponents should apply damage pressure, that they’re still in the area, etc.
With PU mesmers, this isn’t the case at all. They can completely remove themselves from a fight or gain significant tactical advantage easily and without a tell as to where they are. This makes a big difference from a counterplay point of view. Sure, thieves are slippery and tough to deal with (especially when traited), but the tells on most of their stealths allows an opponent to know where they are and know when to expect an attack (and where) if it’s going to happen. That’s massive.
Fair point on SR. I should have compared it with an SA thief. Still, MI is more valuable in a fight without question, providing an instant stealth for 10 people no matter where they are.
On me being a crappy selfish mesmer
Crappy, yes. Selfish, no. If I hadn’t gone PU I would have dead (because of the crappy part) and, therefore, contributing little damage pressure. The 10s MI also helped several times, sometimes allowing us to turn around fights immediately. Even mid-fight, my ability to shake aggro was so strong (and easy) that I could mostly focus on applying steady pressure and regular bursts in a way that would have been impossible even with my main (warrior), on which I actually do have some skill.
On mesmer clones and defense
You (and others) have downplayed the value of clones in combat and the overall defensive options mesmers have, and I have no idea why. Mesmers have plenty of great tricks that contribute to the fun of playing the class.
The fact that most mesmers aren’t running PU and are still one of the more dominant classes in wvw outside of zergs atm should make that clear to anyone. To be clear, I don’t think it’s a problem in and of itself that they’re more dominant now, but clearly they aren’t defense-poor without long PU stealths or else they’d be dead in this much deadlier post-patch world.
That’s a good thing, so why be coy and downplay these defensive advantages? Just to keep a buff to stealth that most mesmers pass up in favour of other advantages?
And, remember, I’ve already said changing PU to +2 would probably be alright, but would have to be tested, and agreed that more stealth counterplay across the classes is a good idea.
(edited by Choppy.4183)
IMO, the biggest balance issue with what PU does is when opponents actually play correctly by counter/avoiding the Mesmer’s initial burst incoming by blowing utilities (usually multiple) plus evading/using endurance and you just wait it out with stealth for the next cycle burst while continuing to apply illusions pressure without being revealed. If the illusions are spread apart or if the fail to kill off the phantasms, they are screwed.
You nailed it right here for me. It is very frustrating knowing you did all you could without a single mistake and yet the mesmer, who has tons of get out of jail free cards, easily overcome you despite all that. The feeling of powerlessness is real.
On other classes’ stealth
Yes, other classes have stealth on demand but not for nearly the duration. A PU mesmer could effectively exit any fight at any point now, instantly. Shadow Refuge and any stealth that requires smoke fields give a tell to identify where the character is and where opponents should apply damage pressure, that they’re still in the area, etc.
Not entirely true. Assuming equal traiting, elixer engy can toss elixer X for 6s stealth on 5 people with 40s CD. A thief gets 4s however has the means to keep applying it depending on situation for minimal real cost as well as having PU equivalent for the class benefits from the GM and that’s without mentioning the minor. I find the need of a smoke field generally doesn’t hamper the “get stealth and run” aspect.
With PU mesmers, this isn’t the case at all. They can completely remove themselves from a fight or gain significant tactical advantage easily and without a tell as to where they are. This makes a big difference from a counterplay point of view. Sure, thieves are slippery and tough to deal with (especially when traited), but the tells on most of their stealths allows an opponent to know where they are and know when to expect an attack (and where) if it’s going to happen. That’s massive.
Again not true, torch has an enter and exit animation, both very obvious with the exit being an AoE damage. MI has a massive tell followed by a big white expanding circle, very easy to interrupt. The only one it is true of is decoy.
Still, MI is more valuable in a fight without question, providing an instant stealth for 10 people no matter where they are.
Not instant, 1.75s cast time with obvious animation.
On mesmer clones and defense
You (and others) have downplayed the value of clones in combat and the overall defensive options mesmers have, and I have no idea why. Mesmers have plenty of great tricks that contribute to the fun of playing the class.
Good players aren’t confused by clones outside of decoy and indeed now actively cleave them out knowing they’re neutering your burst. Incidentally you can call target on the mesmer and unless they stealth they can’t remove it even with clones afaik.
The fact that most mesmers aren’t running PU and are still one of the more dominant classes in wvw outside of zergs atm should make that clear to anyone. To be clear, I don’t think it’s a problem in and of itself that they’re more dominant now, but clearly they aren’t defense-poor without long PU stealths or else they’d be dead in this much deadlier post-patch world.
So why are we discussing nerfing a trait people aren’t running to be effective or are more effective without? Perhaps the problem is burst without investment or possibly the creep of stat points and damage.
If a nerf has to come, we both agree 2s seems about right. Any less and we’re back to old PU which I certainly don’t feel competes with other GMs in the line let alone things like master of fragmentation or inspiration as a whole.
Mesmer lost defence with clone death traits, people haven’t adjusted to the fact they can cleave out clones with no repercussion, when they figure it out, fotm mesmers will have a much harder time bursting and the fotm mesmers will leave.
Play mesmer without any stealth and you will see how hard it is to escape and why clones are not very defensive.
The problem is other light armor characters (scholars) have other kinds of defenses that the mesmer doesn’t have; the mesmer’s defense is more slight-of-hand than the other two scholars, and clones and stealth is a big part of that.
And the problem with clones is, while they can confuse the issue somewhat, they are fairly easy to distinguish and fairly easy to neutralize by themselves. Since clones are also used for shatters, it puts them in a this-or-that situation.
That doesn’t entirely leave the mesmer without options; they have a couple blocks, their mainhand sword evade, distortion (which relies on either clones or signets), but to my eye their defense requires more thought than the other two scholarly classes if they dont have stealth.
As before, I don’t think the problem is PU; lots of people rage at thieves when they are cloaking as much as they sometimes do. The problem is the stealth mechanic, which to a certain extent I like, but I do see it’s problems.
You know what might be fun? Make clones more durable, nerf mesmer’s invisibility to much shorter durations, but everytime he comes out of cloak he shuffles positions with one of his clones. A shell game. Now that could be fun (but clones have to be able to survive to make that work)
Afaik, nobody has proposed taking stealth away from mesmers. It remains an integral component of their defense.
Also, this thread is just about PU. If people want to expand that to mesmer balancing as a whole (where to buff, where to nerf) a new thread is probably in order because it’s a way more complex question.
(edited by Choppy.4183)
Afaik, nobody has proposed taking stealth away from mesmers. It remains an integral component of their defense.
Also, this thread is just about PU. If people want to expand that to mesmer balancing as a whole (where to buff, where to nerf) a new thread is probably in order because it’s a way more complex question.
You keep talking in circles. When it is brought up that pu is not needed to burst then why is it q big deal to leave a fight? By staying in stealth(decal) or running away isn’t that a win?
Afaik, nobody has proposed taking stealth away from mesmers. It remains an integral component of their defense.
Also, this thread is just about PU. If people want to expand that to mesmer balancing as a whole (where to buff, where to nerf) a new thread is probably in order because it’s a way more complex question.
You keep talking in circles. When it is brought up that pu is not needed to burst then why is it q big deal to leave a fight? By staying in stealth(decal) or running away isn’t that a win?
If you choose to track a pu Mesmer with the intentions to kill and rage it’s the same thing as a thief. I’m sure there are better things to do in wvw and pvp.
I have no idea why people keep bringing up WvW as grounds for nerfing PU. Not only was the biggest offender(condi PU) neutered with the patch, but a majority of the time all they’re talking about is 1v1 and small group roaming which should have zero impact on balancing. Mesmer wants to sit in stealth forever? Run away. They probably only have blink for catching up to you and if they’re not running traveler runes, you shouldn’t have too much trouble escaping them, especially not if you have your own good movement skills(depends on class and build).
If the latter doesn’t matter, then you should have no objection to cutting the stealth buff because it’s irrelevant in any place that does matter, by your logic.
(edited by Choppy.4183)
- Because long stealth doesn’t bring a benefit in PvP.
- Because nobody is negatively affected by long stealth in pve.
- Because zergs are immune to long stealth mesmers and will want time warp (or moa for driver ganking lulz)
- Because small to mid scale Wvw is the only place it matters either way (though it could be utilized to cheaply undo serf ppt gains pretty easily too).
If the latter doesn’t matter, then you should have no objection to cutting the stealth buff because it’s irrelevant in any place that does matter, by your logic.
By that same logic it should be left alone hence what we have been saying. L2p learn to adapt or keep dieing.
@Denis
I don’t know how to make a post easier for you to understand. But, swing and a miss, buddy.
@Denis
I don’t know how to make a post easier for you to understand. But, swing and a miss, buddy.
He’s actually right. It isn’t causing any glaring issues in any game mode, but we should nerf it just because people don’t like stealth? Its finally a reliable trait choice in SPvP despite the obvious limitations and heavy competition with other GM traits in the line. The increased stealth duration lets mesmers position themselves(which is pretty much life or death for mesmers) without having to waste blink and allows them to disengage from outnumbered scenarios once they’re focused. Prior to the patch, an extra second of stealth wasn’t going to really make or break much of anything(especially with Might and Swiftness in the boon pool). It wasn’t long enough to properly disengage without blink, but it was long enough to make it a bad idea if you need to deal with a capped point. Now at least it allows mesmer to mitigate damage the way they were meant to(by avoiding it altogether) while still supporting their team.
Nerf the duration and its right back to where it was before. Long enough to have issues in SPvP, not long enough to disengage from most classes or reposition yourself mid fight without the use of Blink.
Lol, he’s not right when he tries to claim your logic as mine as proof of your point.
As for the usefulness of PU in PvP, you can fight with the other people who’ve said the opposite in this thread in an effort to diminish the importance of the buff and to claim no nerf is needed.
Are you saying you’re using PU in pvp and that you have trouble positioning without it? For realz?
(edited by Choppy.4183)
Helseth used PU today in the ESL Monthly Final.
Good players can use PU very well in pvp. If they’re in stealth the entire match, they aren’t a good player…
I have no idea why people keep bringing up WvW as grounds for nerfing PU. Not only was the biggest offender(condi PU) neutered with the patch, but a majority of the time all they’re talking about is 1v1 and small group roaming which should have zero impact on balancing. Mesmer wants to sit in stealth forever? Run away. They probably only have blink for catching up to you and if they’re not running traveler runes, you shouldn’t have too much trouble escaping them, especially not if you have your own good movement skills(depends on class and build).
1) Many play wvw as their main end game mode and are affected by such things.
2) wvw is where the level of absurd reaches levels that can be just stupid some times.
3) Because regardless of A-Net saying they didn’t care for balance in wvw there are limits to that line of thinking. They still have some responsibilities toward that game mode and had no obligation to make a known problem worse.
4) Running away is not only no fun, it’s simply not always an option.
PU rly sux for almost all in wvw atm and the defense for the huge buff that a build that needed none received is at best lame no matter the game mode. This build is up there with all the no risk all reward hall of fame.
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