Guild Wars 2

Honestly I must start running this build since it is so hated. All I can say is I hope I see you all in game so I can stealth away and away and away. Hell according to you all you won’t even see me in the map yet alone standing in a circle. But be warned I am watching from my infinite stealth!!

Choppy.4183:

Lol, he’s not right when he tries to claim your logic as mine as proof of your point.

As for the usefulness of PU in PvP, you can fight with the other people who’ve said the opposite in this thread in an effort to diminish the importance of the buff and to claim no nerf is needed.

Are you saying you’re using PU in pvp and that you have trouble positioning without it? For realz?

I personally don’t run PU at the moment(playing with glamours because condi meta too stronk), but I have zero problems fighting those who do use it. PU is finally usable in SPvP in comparison to the other traits, which is saying something since Chaotic Interruption basically got fused with a great master tier trait. It makes PU the obvious choice when it comes to off point pressure and point to point engagements. PU aids in positioning, which is vital to the mesmer playstyle. You sacrifice party support/coordinated bursting for more self sustain. The buff was indeed important IMO for the reason I stated earlier. So instead of being some weird middle ground when it comes to duration, it now has a very clear focus that isn’t too oppressive nor too niche to be used.

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

Necrotize.2974:

I have no idea why people keep bringing up WvW as grounds for nerfing PU. Not only was the biggest offender(condi PU) neutered with the patch, but a majority of the time all they’re talking about is 1v1 and small group roaming which should have zero impact on balancing. Mesmer wants to sit in stealth forever? Run away. They probably only have blink for catching up to you and if they’re not running traveler runes, you shouldn’t have too much trouble escaping them, especially not if you have your own good movement skills(depends on class and build).

1) Many play wvw as their main end game mode and are affected by such things.

2) wvw is where the level of absurd reaches levels that can be just stupid some times.

3) Because regardless of A-Net saying they didn’t care for balance in wvw there are limits to that line of thinking. They still have some responsibilities toward that game mode and had no obligation to make a known problem worse.

4) Running away is not only no fun, it’s simply not always an option.

PU rly sux for almost all in wvw atm and the defense for the huge buff that a build that needed none received is at best lame no matter the game mode. This build is up there with all the no risk all reward hall of fame.

All those points apply almost exclusively to roaming, which as stated before is not a supported game mode. PU is not oppressive at all when it comes to zerg v zerg(the main purpose of WvW) due to the huge amount of AoE. Doesn’t matter if you have stealth, you’re not gonna survive frontlining it without sacrificing most or all of your damage.

If players spent all their time gearing up for roaming, I’m sorry but that’s not really Anet’s problem as roaming was never a game mode they balanced around in the first place.

As a point of correction, zerg is not the purpose of Wvw, it’s the long standing tactic that has emerged within Wvw for obvious reasons.

The game is not balanced at a 1v1 level. So again that story that you experienced when your havoc party died and you survived using pu, pu seems to be working as intended.

You know, I’m getting tired of the arguments going around in circles and getting nowhere, so here’s a quick summary. Hopefully we can all agree on this.

1) PU is too strong.

-Very few people use it in sPvP, so we can conclude that it’s either not too strong there, or that other traits are even more OP. No conclusion can be drawn.

2) PU is too strong, in WvW.

-Only when escaping when roaming, or when attempting to escape a zerg.

3) PU is too strong in WvW in the situations mentioned above.

Yes, it is very strong for these purposes. I don’t think anyone will disagree. What is being pointed out is that Thieves can also do the same thing but better. Seriously, do you think that WvW has so many roaming Thieves because they are hard to play or high risk? Really? Even now I see more roaming Thieves than Mesmers. Hop on your Thief, practice for a bit and you can do it too. It’s really easy to run away.

Furthermore, Anet does not balance around being able to escape when roaming. I know you want them to, and so do I (because being able to reset a fight as many times as you want is silly), but they don’t. Proof: Necro and Guardian are terrible at running away.

TLDR: Yes it’s broken, but only in an area where (a) Thief is more broken and (b) Anet doesn’t care about, for whatever reason.

Okay? I hope that was a good summary.

Edit: It’s super strong for dueling too, but that’s probably even less of a concern for Anet.

So yes, I don’t care if PU is nerfed. But it would be rather unfair if Thieves maintained their ridiculous escape capabilities.

I kinda agree with Sunflowers summery.

Today we had a PU full on stealth as much as possible, portal, veil, traveler runes mesmer in our outer bay. Took a long time to hunt them down and murderise them. Was it annoying? Yes. Was it also fun sneaking up on them and turning them into a giant chicken? Oh yes, words don’t describe that feeling.

It was annoying but it was no more so than a thief. I guess the potential to port 20+ people through outer is there but honestly, once I went for interrupts and moa it wasn’t hard even on my slow mesmer. 100% a learn to play issue.

This is why I’m so against nerfing it while everything is in such a raw state. There’s a lot of things that are learn to play and learn to adapt issues and areas where we just haven’t been able to fully see the possibilities.

With six pages running, everything I’m going to say has probably already been said – but let me chime in.

To discuss PU you need to look at it from a couple of different angles and in the context of current stat-balance.

Yes, the trait is incredibly strong as far as traits go and it has given the class another dimension in certain modes or aspects of the game.

At the same time, Mesmer stealth was an issue before and in high-end gameplay of modes like sPvP or WvW the Mesmer would be outstealthed and sidelined.

It’s possible that it would have been better to reduce stealth on other classes than improve it on the Mesmer, but time will tell as the changes have not settled in, stats are all over the place and further defensive changes will come with HoT.

That leads us to the next argument. Many of the issues people have with PU as a trait or Mesmers as a class at the moment stem from the fact that everyone has been given more offensive stats. That will be adressed somehow and the current situation with burst issues will damp down. Hopefully, too many traits have not been neutered by then.

In an environment where burst is more powerful, a bursty class (like the Mesmer) stand to gain alot.

That ties into the final comment: the human factor.

Good Mesmers have since long learnt how to use burst effectively since they’ve had few other options. It’s been an all-out class, so it’s players are also more likely to do well in a bursty environment.

Alot of the issues other classes seem to have with Mesmers now, for a few weeks, Mesmers have had to endure for years. They’ve developed anticipation and counter-burst strategies because they had to. As a Mesmer you’d counter a Thief by anticipation rather than reaction – and that issue had nothing to do with plasma steals.

For a Mesmer, anticipating other Mesmers’ burst is not too difficult and not very different to anticipating other classes. It seems more like other classes are not used to the Mesmer being able to do the same thing – same as they don’t expect such tremendous surprise-burst from Medi Guards or similar yet either.

So, provided you can sneak up on a PU mesmer and have a way to deny them their skill bar, all good? C’mon, that’s not a l2p issue… that’s back in “use a stealth trap whenever you see one” land.

As for sunflower’s list, add havoc and small group Wvw, which applies to all Wvw tiers. Packs of 5 plus mesmers are becoming increasingly common, not all to do with PU, mind you, but at least a couple will trait it to great effect (all could if more stealth is needed, kinda like how a lot of mesmers only equip portal when they need it). I agree that mesmers as a class, no matter how OP they appear to some, should not receive core nerfs while things are in flux. But holding off on making a specific change to a specific trait, that will have no core impact on the class but will alleviate problems in at least some aspects of the game, is silly.

Further, the notion that one OP trait should be left alone because another class has something OP is nonsense. This is a thread about PU specifically, other things needing a fix has no bearing on whether this thing should be fixed.

@subversion
You make it sound like mesmer is a challenging class to play. While it certainly used to be, and it probably has a higher skill ceiling than some classes in regards to optimal mechanics, it really isn’t that hard. Burst delivery is easy peasy, at least in anything beyond 1v1.

It’s a great class with fun mechanics, but assuming people who main mesmers have some sort of special personal ability, to anticipate and mitigate bursts, that other players lack is just fantasy.

Somebody already gave the example of using short CD mesmer bursts to bait long CD mitigations in other classes, interspersed with long stealths that prevent counter bursts. That’s not an l2p issue, that’s an imbalanced counterplay problem. Sure, fighting stealthy thieves sucks, but they’re mostly on a tether that allows more counter play.

Choppy.4183:

So, provided you can sneak up on a PU mesmer and have a way to deny them their skill bar, all good? C’mon, that’s not a l2p issue… that’s back in “use a stealth trap whenever you see one” land.

As for sunflower’s list, add havoc and small group Wvw, which applies to all Wvw tiers. Packs of 5 plus mesmers are becoming increasingly common, not all to do with PU, mind you, but at least a couple will trait it to great effect (all could if more stealth is needed, kinda like how a lot of mesmers only equip portal when they need it). I agree that mesmers as a class, no matter how OP they appear to some, should not receive core nerfs while things are in flux. But holding off on making a specific change to a specific trait, that will have no core impact on the class but will alleviate problems in at least some aspects of the game, is silly.

Further, the notion that one OP trait should be left alone because another class has something OP is nonsense. This is a thread about PU specifically, other things needing a fix has no bearing on whether this thing should be fixed.

@subversion
You make it sound like mesmer is a challenging class to play. While it certainly used to be, and it probably has a higher skill ceiling than some classes in regards to optimal mechanics, it really isn’t that hard. Burst delivery is easy peasy, at least in anything beyond 1v1.

It’s a great class with fun mechanics, but assuming people who main mesmers have some sort of special personal ability, to anticipate and mitigate bursts, that other players lack is just fantasy.

Somebody already gave the example of using short CD mesmer bursts to bait long CD motivations in other classes, interspersed with long stealths that prevent counter bursts. That’s not an l2p issue, that’s an imbalanced counterplay problem. Sure, fighting stealthy thieves sucks, but they’re mostly on a tether that allows more counter play.

If Mesmer burst is so easy why did you slot pu and go all defensive in your havoc group? Again you took a highly defensive trait with great sustain like your main the warrior. Now the tables have turned. It is a simple learn to play issue.

Because it was obscenely easy with PU? Because being easy to land bursts doesn’t mean I’m going to if I’m dead, which would be expected when I’m still learning tricks? Lol, why ask questions with obvious answers?

You’re fooling yourself if you think warriors have better sustain than mesmers in Wvw. Shoutbow in PvP, certainly prepatch and possibly now, sure. But Wvw? Lol, not a chance.

And you’ll note that, despite that, I’ve specifically advocated leaving mesmer core advantages alone, both here and in the warrior thread you cited.

Choppy.4183:

Because it was obscenely easy with PU? Because being easy to land bursts doesn’t mean I’m going to if I’m dead, which would be expected when I’m still learning tricks? Lol, why ask questions with obvious answers?

You’re fooling yourself if you think warriors have better sustain than mesmers in Wvw. Shoutbow in PvP, certainly prepatch and possibly now, sure. But Wvw? Lol, not a chance.

And you’ll note that, despite that, I’ve specifically advocated leaving mesmer core advantages alone, both here and in the warrior thread you cited.

Leaving what out? Warriors have phenomenal sustain. Just by being a warrior. So ur cries to nerf pu on a light armor class that doesn’t have the sustain. Your answer in itself states without pu Mesmer is dead yet you want to nerf it. Hence the l2p comment. Suck it up learn adapt or keep coming here and clicking waypoints.

Choppy.4183:

snip
Somebody already gave the example of using short CD mesmer bursts to bait long CD mitigations in other classes, interspersed with long stealths that prevent counter bursts. That’s not an l2p issue, that’s an imbalanced counterplay problem. Sure, fighting stealthy thieves sucks, but they’re mostly on a tether that allows more counter play.

You were going so well on the logic train until you went straight into a wall.

Short CD Mesmer bursts> bait long CD mitigation> interspersed with long stealths

ooooooooooooh snap. Where the hell did those long stealths come from? From long CD mitigation. You described how all combat works in the game, and you accuse it of being broken because it doesn’t go in your favour.

Solution, burst the Mesmer with short CD skills to bait a long CD mitigation (stealth). Then intersperse with your own mitigations to prevent counter responses. Hopefully no one from our community comes to your forums to call you OP.

@Denis
Lol, really? Where does the amazing sustain come from in a Wvw setup? I mean, it’s not really on topic here but I’m positive you have no idea what goes into playing a warrior with a comment like that. And don’t confuse me challenging you on this point as me saying “poor warriors, mesmers are so OP” because I don’t think I can say much more than I have here and on the warrior thread to show that’s not my position.

@Daniel
You misunderstand me. Baiting out defenses is part of the game, and a really important one. The unbalanced counter play was the important part there, and recognizing that I was responding to, “you just need to learn how to anticipate bursts”.

Also, the torch and utility stealths on mesmer aren’t on particularly long CD, and they aren’t the only defenses. I’m not complaining about that, but let’s keep things in perspective here.

Choppy.4183:

@Denis
Lol, really? Where does the amazing sustain come from in a Wvw setup? I mean, it’s not really on topic here but I’m positive you have no idea what goes into playing a warrior with a comment like that. And don’t confuse me challenging you on this point as me saying “poor warriors, mesmers are so OP” because I don’t think I can say much more than I have here and on the warrior thread to show that’s not my position.

@Daniel
You misunderstand me. Baiting out defenses is part of the game, and a really important one. The unbalanced counter play was the important part there, and recognizing that I was responding to, “you just need to learn how to anticipate bursts”.

Also, the torch and utility stealths on mesmer aren’t on particularly long CD, and they aren’t the only defenses. I’m not complaining about that, but let’s keep things in perspective here.

Sadly because I watch warriors face tank stun kill shot run use weapon skills as gap closers and escapes. Their healing signet is so strong better than some active heals just for slotting it. Wait you mean I sound like you discussing Mesmer.

Lol, ok. How about you run a warrior in Wvw exactly how you think it works and see if your results are as good a mine with PU mesmer. Best of luck.

Choppy.4183:

@Denis
Lol, really? Where does the amazing sustain come from in a Wvw setup? I mean, it’s not really on topic here but I’m positive you have no idea what goes into playing a warrior with a comment like that. And don’t confuse me challenging you on this point as me saying “poor warriors, mesmers are so OP” because I don’t think I can say much more than I have here and on the warrior thread to show that’s not my position.

@Daniel
You misunderstand me. Baiting out defenses is part of the game, and a really important one. The unbalanced counter play was the important part there, and recognizing that I was responding to, “you just need to learn how to anticipate bursts”.

Also, the torch and utility stealths on mesmer aren’t on particularly long CD, and they aren’t the only defenses. I’m not complaining about that, but let’s keep things in perspective here.

Torch is 30 seconds. The trait is not a flat increase. Decoy is 40/32 base veil is 90 mi is 90/72. Desperate decoy competes in the dueling line plus prolly would cause reveal since hard to use/time. So how are these not long?

denis.9487:

Choppy.4183:

@Denis
Lol, really? Where does the amazing sustain come from in a Wvw setup? I mean, it’s not really on topic here but I’m positive you have no idea what goes into playing a warrior with a comment like that. And don’t confuse me challenging you on this point as me saying “poor warriors, mesmers are so OP” because I don’t think I can say much more than I have here and on the warrior thread to show that’s not my position.

@Daniel
You misunderstand me. Baiting out defenses is part of the game, and a really important one. The unbalanced counter play was the important part there, and recognizing that I was responding to, “you just need to learn how to anticipate bursts”.

Also, the torch and utility stealths on mesmer aren’t on particularly long CD, and they aren’t the only defenses. I’m not complaining about that, but let’s keep things in perspective here.

Torch is 30 seconds. The trait is not a flat increase. Decoy is 40/32 base veil is 90 mi is 90/72. Desperate decoy competes in the dueling line plus prolly would cause reveal since hard to use/time. So how are these not long?

people just keep whining and whining, yes pu is strong and yes we have long cooldowns on most of our stealth skills and pu makes it easier to rotate. but pu is not THE trait everyone and his mother is runnign right now. i tried it and i play wvw ONLY. honestly i rather take chaotic interruption. pu is great if u zergbust as u actually can get away whereas before u would just be stunlocked and then unable to escape the zerg. its strong in a 1v1 situation, but then again, thieves have been permastealthing since culling and sometimes are only visible for 1 second while they deal like twice the dmg a wvw mesmer deals as in wvw a mesmer usually doesnt run full glass. so no pu is not overpowerd in wvw but its strong and annoying. and about the stupid argument omg u can reset the fight whenever u want by stealthing away. erm thieves have been doing this for years!!!!! before they fixed shadow step thieves would be able to poof back to spawn when it got too risky. also warriors would just run away easily outrun our lame slow mesmer swiftness with their gs leaps etc. thieves are kittenhurt right now because mesmers can stealth along with them and its not only them going poof then u go invis and pop up before the thieves stealth runs out and thief backstabs u for 8-11k. they are kittenhurt because they are not the only stealthclass anymore. well guess what u guys were laughing at mesmers when perplexity runes came out and u guys were able to stack 25 stacks of confusion on an an enemy with half the effort a mesmer had to put in to get even a few confusion stacks after their nerf. now u know how it feels!

Watched the EU ESL monthly today.
Helseth was running PU.
Did PU help him survive better? Surely! Did PU help him win 1v1?No. Did PU make his mesmer facerolling over others?Hell No!.

apharma.3741:

Choppy.4183:

None of the above is in balance with other classes… any of them. Other classes have their own issues, for sure, but clinging to an obviously unbalanced trait buff because other classes might have their own things that need to be adjusted is incredibly short sighted. Rolling back on that trait isn’t a nerf to the core of the mesmer class either, nor does it impede build diversity.

It does impede it. Tell me how many mesmer builds outside that PU clone death build were running PU before the buff? I’ll tell you, almost non. Nerfing the stealth back to where it was pre patch is not the answer as I keep saying.

Make it +2s and MI (the source of a lot of your concerns despite there being bigger game changing elites) has much reduced effect. I’ll tell you what will happen though, people will still complain, people will still ask for it to become 1s, people will still go around saying it’s “broken” OP because at the very core of it all is this one singular fact.

There is and never has been a true counter to stealth

No one used PU before the buff because it was completely unreachable. You HAD to lose either IP or DE, both of which are absolutely necessary for shatter builds. Now, you hardly even need DE! I think this could go back to where it was just fine and people would still take it.

I think the problem here is that all the Mesmer mains aren’t running the fabled 6/6/6/6/6 build (currently 123/123/123,123/123/123,123/123/123,123/123/123,123/123/123) which allows the usage of Decoy -> Mind Wrack -> Time Warp (traited to remove Reveal) -> Mass Invis (instant cast because of traited Time Warp) -> Mimic (traited to reset cooldown of previous 3 abilities) -> double traited DE roll (1 clone 2 Phants up no cast time) -> Mind Wrack -> Time Warp -> Mass Invis -> iZerker -> Signet of the Ether -> iZerker.

If you’re scared, just throw in a Mirror and don’t forget you can always use your back-up Mantra of Distraction (AoE map-wide interrupt), Mantra of Pain (15k nukes, oh boy!), and even use Mantra of Recovery (instant cast Signet of Courage, totally underpowered, amirite?).

And then if somehow the enemy is still alive, you just press F4 for 17 seconds of Stealth and Distortion to stomp them. Meanwhile your DPS is 15k without using any attacks (since iZerker while you stealth is op and if they hit a clone they get a ton of conditions applied to them).

Oh, did I mention that you can do all of this with a single button? The game automatically casts them all in order with no aftercast delay and instantly animation cancelling. All you have to do is sit back and watch Netflix the monitor.

And if that’s not enough, you can even equip gear that has STATS to make yourself stronger.

Choppy.4183:

Lol, ok. How about you run a warrior in Wvw exactly how you think it works and see if your results are as good a mine with PU mesmer. Best of luck.

I play all classes and I definitely feel your pain. .Pre-patch I ran a GS/H warrior and I had so much fun roaming. Post-patch is a nightmare for warriors. Movement nerf alone hits warriors hard. GS/H is hardly viable as b4 cuz before patch I can run a rather tanky spec with very decent dmg but that doesn’t work anymore because of the trait line changes. I have yet to find a viable roaming build for warrior so yay back to my PU mesmer.

neptunechild.4831:

I play all classes and I definitely feel your pain. .Pre-patch I ran a GS/H warrior and I had so much fun roaming. Post-patch is a nightmare for warriors. Movement nerf alone hits warriors hard. GS/H is hardly viable as b4 cuz before patch I can run a rather tanky spec with very decent dmg but that doesn’t work anymore because of the trait line changes. I have yet to find a viable roaming build for warrior so yay back to my PU mesmer.

I ran my PU all this evening and killed a competent warrior running h/gs followed by another using h/lb without breaking a sweat. Both used Rampage on me, and both died. Then an engi, ranger, etc, etc. One guardian manhandled me pretty well though.

I’m still trash on my mesmer, but this build is faceroll easy to play. The amount of work required to kill people is tiny compared to what I’m used to, and escape is instant and perfect.

If changes aren’t made, I predict a lot more mesmers running around the battlefield soon, and there are already way more than before.

The Gates Assassin.9827:

No one used PU before the buff because it was completely unreachable. You HAD to lose either IP or DE, both of which are absolutely necessary for shatter builds. Now, you hardly even need DE! I think this could go back to where it was just fine and people would still take it.

I’d tend to agree. It probably wouldn’t get a build named after it (i.e. “The PU Mesmer”), but it’d still be a reasonably good trait that would work for some builds and playstyles.

denis.9487:

Torch is 30 seconds. The trait is not a flat increase. Decoy is 40/32 base veil is 90 mi is 90/72. Desperate decoy competes in the dueling line plus prolly would cause reveal since hard to use/time. So how are these not long?

Um, because they aren’t. Compare that with the OP super-sustain warriors you were mentioning… a stance warrior is mostly looking at 60s CDs (with no reduction trait), and that’s largely what you’ll find in wvw, at least small scale. Oh, and not only are you visible the whole time, a little icon (plus the attack effect) tells your opponent, “hey, just wait a few seconds and this mofo’s out of utility for a minute!”

Honestly, when I was rolling tonight there was almost no time that I didn’t have a stealth, an evade, a port, a stun break, or a dodge at my disposal. That’s amazing.

Damage output was also strong and consistent, and escape was always an option. I had shatters and high damage skills available pretty much at all times and they were way easier to deliver, so add low cd burst to the mix and you get a damage pumping machine that has enormous defense going for it. Frankly, I’m surprised you aren’t saying, “sure, we’ll take the nerf on PU, just don’t look at this other stuff”.

Choppy.4183:

neptunechild.4831:

I play all classes and I definitely feel your pain. .Pre-patch I ran a GS/H warrior and I had so much fun roaming. Post-patch is a nightmare for warriors. Movement nerf alone hits warriors hard. GS/H is hardly viable as b4 cuz before patch I can run a rather tanky spec with very decent dmg but that doesn’t work anymore because of the trait line changes. I have yet to find a viable roaming build for warrior so yay back to my PU mesmer.

I ran my PU all this evening and killed a competent warrior running h/gs followed by another using h/lb without breaking a sweat. Both used Rampage on me, and both died. Then an engi, ranger, etc, etc. One guardian manhandled me pretty well though.

I’m still trash on my mesmer, but this build is faceroll easy to play. The amount of work required to kill people is tiny compared to what I’m used to, and escape is instant and perfect.

If changes aren’t made, I predict a lot more mesmers running around the battlefield soon, and there are already way more than before.

Yeah, PU mesmer in most cases will own warriors/rangers/engis/necros. Been running PU shatter for a while and I found medi guars/burn guars/celes/condi thieves/power lock mesmers more challenging than other builds/classes.

The Gates Assassin.9827:

apharma.3741:

Choppy.4183:

None of the above is in balance with other classes… any of them. Other classes have their own issues, for sure, but clinging to an obviously unbalanced trait buff because other classes might have their own things that need to be adjusted is incredibly short sighted. Rolling back on that trait isn’t a nerf to the core of the mesmer class either, nor does it impede build diversity.

It does impede it. Tell me how many mesmer builds outside that PU clone death build were running PU before the buff? I’ll tell you, almost non. Nerfing the stealth back to where it was pre patch is not the answer as I keep saying.

Make it +2s and MI (the source of a lot of your concerns despite there being bigger game changing elites) has much reduced effect. I’ll tell you what will happen though, people will still complain, people will still ask for it to become 1s, people will still go around saying it’s “broken” OP because at the very core of it all is this one singular fact.

There is and never has been a true counter to stealth

No one used PU before the buff because it was completely unreachable. You HAD to lose either IP or DE, both of which are absolutely necessary for shatter builds. Now, you hardly even need DE! I think this could go back to where it was just fine and people would still take it.

I respectfully disagree. The following is a build someone used to use before the PU nerf that added might and swiftness.

He didn’t run IP as he didn’t feel he needed it for a 3 clone shatter and watching the video, he didn’t. Once PU was nerfed to what it was before the specializations his build was unplayable, he just couldn’t rely on the boons for defence any more and I did ask him. At the same time 1 extra second of stealth is not worth going for a GM, not when it shares the same slot now as chaotic interruption and other lines have many defensive options.

People could pick up and some did pick up PU before it was nerfed as it was a solid defence trait. Almost no-one but “that one condi build” did so after the nerf as it just wasn’t worth it where as for the condi build they wanted the GM minor (toughness to condi I believe) so 1 extra point for PU usually was the only defence available.

PU pre patch is not defensive enough to pick up sticking at +1s since the boons were watered down. I’d rather go inspiration for the extra condi clears and heals as they massively outweigh PU in combat, especially as burn is still so lethal.

apharma.3741:

I respectfully disagree. The following is a build someone used to use before the PU nerf that added might and swiftness.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10-Xty8wP24

He didn’t run IP as he didn’t feel he needed it for a 3 clone shatter and watching the video, he didn’t. Once PU was nerfed to what it was before the specializations his build was unplayable, he just couldn’t rely on the boons for defence any more and I did ask him. At the same time 1 extra second of stealth is not worth going for a GM, not when it shares the same slot now as chaotic interruption and other lines have many defensive options.

People could pick up and some did pick up PU before it was nerfed as it was a solid defence trait. Almost no-one but “that one condi build” did so after the nerf as it just wasn’t worth it where as for the condi build they wanted the GM minor (toughness to condi I believe) so 1 extra point for PU usually was the only defence available.

PU pre patch is not defensive enough to pick up sticking at +1s since the boons were watered down. I’d rather go inspiration for the extra condi clears and heals as they massively outweigh PU in combat, especially as burn is still so lethal.

Before, taking PU was sacrificing a lot of damage and utility. Now you get to keep that damage and utility (and more) and still have PU.

The Gates Assassin.9827:

Before, taking PU was sacrificing a lot of damage and utility. Now you get to keep that damage and utility (and more) and still have PU.

To me that says that the problem lies in that there isn’t as much of a cost to it, not that the trait is too strong. I certainly know you can do good shatter damage without even going into domination and using just DE for making sure you do have the shatter when you need it.

The removal of stats was a good step but I don’t think they properly balanced the costs of choosing the power vs the survivability. I don’t think the survivability of PU is as high as people think, especially in PvP, however as I said to Choppy and I’ll say to you (even though you quoted it and ignored it), what if we keep the spirit of the buff and instead of asking for a reversion to old PU we have +2s?

This brings down outliers like MI substantially, makes veil what it really should be and trims down the decoy and torch a tad. With the added effect of reducing the torch cool down trait’s effectiveness which also seems to be one of the contributors to high uptime of stealth.

Additionally it didn’t cost that much in the old system, the mental torment (20% mind wrack damage) was an adept trait, you could pick that up with DE (a master), PU and still pick up another trait in domination, dueling or an adept in another line.

Edit: I don’t need to quote myself lol.

The Gates Assassin.9827:

apharma.3741:

I respectfully disagree. The following is a build someone used to use before the PU nerf that added might and swiftness.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10-Xty8wP24

He didn’t run IP as he didn’t feel he needed it for a 3 clone shatter and watching the video, he didn’t. Once PU was nerfed to what it was before the specializations his build was unplayable, he just couldn’t rely on the boons for defence any more and I did ask him. At the same time 1 extra second of stealth is not worth going for a GM, not when it shares the same slot now as chaotic interruption and other lines have many defensive options.

People could pick up and some did pick up PU before it was nerfed as it was a solid defence trait. Almost no-one but “that one condi build” did so after the nerf as it just wasn’t worth it where as for the condi build they wanted the GM minor (toughness to condi I believe) so 1 extra point for PU usually was the only defence available.

PU pre patch is not defensive enough to pick up sticking at +1s since the boons were watered down. I’d rather go inspiration for the extra condi clears and heals as they massively outweigh PU in combat, especially as burn is still so lethal.

Before, taking PU was sacrificing a lot of damage and utility. Now you get to keep that damage and utility (and more) and still have PU.

But you lose other things. Still in the chaos line, you lose one of mesmer’s few sources of Stability+some other boons, or you lose the ability to call and take down one target with an organized attack. Doesn’t really matter if you live forever with PU if you’re not doing anything to support your team other than summoning phantasms. Sure you can devote your other two lines to dps, but that also means you aren’t running Inspiration and thus probably have no more than the Torch trait(which from my experience only really works well on The Prestige anyway) and a single utility slot to deal with conditions. If you want to build to have high damage and PU, you’re not gonna have much in the ways of condi removal and you certainly won’t have any supplemental healing effects should you get caught by an engi or ranger running reveal skills. Especially with all these burn builds, running Inspiration is not only great for your survivability, but also helps your team as most of the traits apply in an AoE.

My opinion on Prismatic Understanding, reading all the back and forth:

• Remove all current functionality.
• Play more directly on the name.
• Prismatic Understanding: You can see and attack stealthed targets.

There, done. And Thieves get nerfed quite hard in the process, which is always a good thing. :P

Necrotize.2974:

But you lose other things. Still in the chaos line, you lose one of mesmer’s few sources of Stability+some other boons, or you lose the ability to call and take down one target with an organized attack. Doesn’t really matter if you live forever with PU if you’re not doing anything to support your team other than summoning phantasms. Sure you can devote your other two lines to dps, but that also means you aren’t running Inspiration and thus probably have no more than the Torch trait(which from my experience only really works well on The Prestige anyway) and a single utility slot to deal with conditions. If you want to build to have high damage and PU, you’re not gonna have much in the ways of condi removal and you certainly won’t have any supplemental healing effects should you get caught by an engi or ranger running reveal skills. Especially with all these burn builds, running Inspiration is not only great for your survivability, but also helps your team as most of the traits apply in an AoE.

I think you should play it again because you seem to have a distorted sense of how it is (maybe it’s different than it was before, I don’t know). It’s definitely not a selfish bunker build that just stays alive for it’s own sake.

First, it’s a shatter build, not a phantasm build. My shatters were doing about 2.8-3.2k aoe fairly frequently. In addition, I was still doing quite a bit of damage using the other skills on gs and sw, including constant ranged pressure from the gs when I wasn’t prepared to enter melee. That’s a fair bit of damage contribution for the party, not as high as capable mesmers more tricked out for damage, but reasonably high compared to other classes. Then the 10s party stealth through MI is a massive contribution if used at clutch times (plus it’s traited for me, so only a 72s cd).

The build definitely doesn’t need stability with two stun breaks on reasonably good cd on the bar, plus the other defensive tools. As I mentioned, I beat back-to-back hammer warriors with ease and their skill levels with their class was higher than mine (they weren’t amazing warriors, but competent for sure). Both also used Rampage, the cc-rich elite that’s generally considered too OP to use in duels (which these weren’t) and even has some warriors calling for it to be nerfed (it’s actually not that OP imo, and I don’t run it on my warrior even though I have it traited).

For conditions, I had the traited torch as well as a traited Arcane Thievery. I’ve not once had to use AT (I always forget about it) and have yet to die to conditions. The ability to shake aggro (in a group fight) was the primary line of defense, with food and torch being sufficient to manage condis otherwise. Having AT on the bar if I actually did get hit hit with a condi bomb would help tremendously.

I hate the current PU in WvW.

I’ll tell you why I hate it.

Because people ask you to run it.

Mesmer’s at kind of a high point for interesting options you can exercise in play. But, noooo, they want you to:
1. Take the two most boring trait lines, just for PU and the torch recharge.
2. Flip your utilities into nothing but stealth right when it looks like there’s going to be a tough fight.
3. Spend half your time hiding in keeps doing a rotation instead of fighting.

I want mesmer “perma-stealth” to go away because maybe then folks will stop looking at sneaky-capping with portals as easy mode and insisting it’s the best use of a mesmer. (It should be a fun, risky thing you can do sometimes. Not a go-to strategy for every time you bust through into something you can’t capture or can’t hold.)

There are far, far better things than obscene stealth duration that can be done with PU.

ASP.8093:

I hate the current PU in WvW.

I’ll tell you why I hate it.

Because people ask you to run it.

Mesmer’s at kind of a high point for interesting options you can exercise in play. But, noooo, they want you to:
1. Take the two most boring trait lines, just for PU and the torch recharge.
2. Flip your utilities into nothing but stealth right when it looks like there’s going to be a tough fight.
3. Spend half your time hiding in keeps doing a rotation instead of fighting.

I want mesmer “perma-stealth” to go away because maybe then folks will stop looking at sneaky-capping with portals as easy mode and insisting it’s the best use of a mesmer.

There are far, far better things than obscene stealth duration that can be done with PU.

I definitely agree with that last part.

Here’s a post by someone who was testing different builds in WvW for his guild group.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/A-tale-of-testing-WvW-builds/

Pre patch I know, but it shows what can be done with mesmer besides being a veil/portal bot. He does use them when needed but he also provides heals, support and I can see a recreation of this build being incredibly supporting while able to pick out stragglers for a kill.

And mantra mesmer is becoming an invaluable part of organized havoc. Mesmers have a lot of options as far as fun and useful builds go, which is an enviable and awesome thing.

@ASP
You need to run with a better class of people for all the reasons you mention.

Change PU back to adding 1 additional second to stealth abilities. THEN buff Veil to last for 5s and Mass Invisibility for 7. Maybe more or less depending on what they want…

In my head, I imagine Anet buffed PU for WvW Mesmers. What they forgot, however, is that the skills that benefit most from the PU buff was Torch 4 and Decoy… They simply should have buffed Veil/MI and left PU entirely alone.

Choppy.4183:

@ASP
You need to run with a better class of people for all the reasons you mention.

Permastealth — especially on a mesmer, who has access to Portals — is a perverse incentive that needs to be removed.

You can hate rat wells all day and still run ‘em because that’s what you recognize to be effective. PU is like that, right now. I wouldn’t blame anyone for employing for it or asking for it, especially on a night when you’re perpetually Outnumbered and trying to do the best with what you’ve got. It’s made for some terrible gameplay, though.

I would make PU 50% and remove aegis from the available boons. I think having aegis a close to guaranteed boon from stealth diminishes counter play to heavy stealth because I can easily perma stealth since the opponent would have to get me targeted for range or be right on me to surely land something that could stop me from going stealth again (and here I speak from experience). If you’re smart with your stealth rotation, you literally can perma stealth it currently and shatter burst reset whenever you want and personally I found that is the biggest issue with it. Surely it’s the same issue with a SA thief but I feel SA thief just doesn’t get the same defense that a mesmer can get.

Is perma stealth PU OP in sPvP/PvE? Nope, but there is a point where anet can’t say they want to keep the game balanced across all game modes and try to tie them together while ignoring completely OP stuff in one game mode.
/2cents

I still find PU to be more of an issue with a condition-based Mesmer than a power one. This is, perhaps, coming from the fact that I came across a duo of two PU condition mesmers in SPvP yesterday and trying to survive was absolutely brutal and impossible. Especially with zero cleanse.

Then I teamed up with Dondagora to try a similar setup and we won every game. There IS something to PU. And the amount of stealth that comes from that trait and The Pledge allows a mesmers a lot of control and manipulation will being unseen.

The boons from PU aren’t the problem. It’s the duration. Don’t get me wrong: It’s a ton of fun chain-stealthing and getting swiftness procs all across the map and using decoy/mimic/blink to execute control over points and steal and cap and surprise and escape. But I think all of that stealth allows us to do more than we’re supposed to.

Is PU with decoy OP? I don’t think so.
Is PU with traited decoy OP? Not really, especially in PvP.
Is PU with decoy and torch OP? It’s a strong combo, no more than on other classes equivalent.
Is PU with traited decoy, traited torch and MI OP? This is where the majority of people have issues.
Is PU with veil OP?LOL no, no chance, not at all with the way veil works.

A lot of people just want it flat out nerfed but aren’t thinking about what components and combinations are too strong and what actually feels OK considering the GM investment.

For me the biggest outliers are MI but mainly PU when used with the torch trait. I’m not really happy with that trait as it does promote sitting in stealth instead of being aggressive with the torch.

Changing the torch trait to a reduction per burns you apply or per enemies hit by torch skills I feel would be a step forward. Then looking at the duration of PU and changing it to a static +2s would effectively sort out all the QQ. Perhaps change might to vigor, resistance or stab.

apharma.3741:

Is PU with traited decoy, traited torch and MI OP? This is where the majority of people have issues.

<snip>

A lot of people just want it flat out nerfed but aren’t thinking about what components and combinations are too strong and what actually feels OK considering the GM investment.

<snip>

Changing the torch trait to a reduction per burns you apply or per enemies hit by torch skills I feel would be a step forward. Then looking at the duration of PU and changing it to a static +2s would effectively sort out all the QQ.

Sounds good to me. Veil gets the short end of the stick from the current PU, while MI arguably benefits way too much. At the same time, the flat +1s that used to be on PU was really underwhelming. Changing the trait to a flat +2s instead seems pretty fair to me.

As for whether PU should lose some of its offensive boons for defensive ones, I wonder if it should go the other way. Stealth is defensive enough as it is, what’s the need to stack Protection or Aegis on top of it? But, on the other hand, allowing Mesmers to stack Might while hiding in stealth only reinforces the problem with stealth burst…

tobascodagama.2961:

g. Changing the trait to a flat +2s instead seems pretty fair to me.

/agree
If this will calm the masses of QQ.
But it wont.
People hate stealth, and wont be satisfied until every class is a killshot war.

As for whether PU should lose some of its offensive boons for defensive ones, I wonder if it should go the other way. Stealth is defensive enough as it is, what’s the need to stack Protection or Aegis on top of it? But, on the other hand, allowing Mesmers to stack Might while hiding in stealth only reinforces the problem with stealth burst…

I agree on the aegis. I think this should be a guardian thing.
I disagree on the prot and might.
It’s a defensive trait. and only stacks 1 stack of a short duration might at that.

I think instead of Aegis, it should have a chance to proc resistance or stability.

Lets face it, ANet knew what they were doing when they boosted PU. Everybody complains that ANet does not care about WvW, but the PU is prime example of their care. They wanted to make the lives of Mesmers hiding in keeps and towers easier.
(Sleepy so excuse my poor sense of humor.)

Regarding Mass Invisibility: It actually feels like an “elite” skill when paired with PU. And it feels so even without Master of Manipulation to reduce to cooldown. The frequency it provides with MoM is nice, and maybe makes it easier to exploit.

However, without PU, Mass Invisibility just feels like a 5-second stealth that I need to cast.

The stealth “problem” comes from how frequently we can disappear, coupled with the duration. But I think it’s fine with MI. It’s a true elite reset when traited. Otherwise Time Warp or Signet Moa may be more beneficial (even the signet passive — anyone else excited to couple that with ‘Time Marches On’ come Chronomancers?).

Tealots.6095:

Regarding Mass Invisibility: It actually feels like an “elite” skill when paired with PU. And it feels so even without Master of Manipulation to reduce to cooldown. The frequency it provides with MoM is nice, and maybe makes it easier to exploit.

However, without PU, Mass Invisibility just feels like a 5-second stealth that I need to cast.

The stealth “problem” comes from how frequently we can disappear, coupled with the duration. But I think it’s fine with MI. It’s a true elite reset when traited. Otherwise Time Warp or Signet Moa may be more beneficial (even the signet passive — anyone else excited to couple that with ‘Time Marches On’ come Chronomancers?).

5-second Mass Invis is plenty of time to res someone, reposition your whole team, or pull off a pretty decisive ambush.

It was my hands-down favorite before the PU change and it’s still my hands-down favorite even though I’m not running PU now.

ASP.8093:

5-second Mass Invis is plenty of time to res someone, reposition your whole team, or pull off a pretty decisive ambush.

It was my hands-down favorite before the PU change and it’s still my hands-down favorite even though I’m not running PU now.

Yeah, exactly. 5s is plenty of Stealth uptime, and 7s would be a noticeable improvement without being over the top.

tobascodagama.2961:

ASP.8093:

5-second Mass Invis is plenty of time to res someone, reposition your whole team, or pull off a pretty decisive ambush.

It was my hands-down favorite before the PU change and it’s still my hands-down favorite even though I’m not running PU now.

Yeah, exactly. 5s is plenty of Stealth uptime, and 7s would be a noticeable improvement without being over the top.

5s of uptime for our ELITE slot at that. And then getting it doubled requires going down a line and picking that as our grandmaster. If its a problem in WvW, then maybe reducing the targets would be more reasonable. Otherwise I still see the trait as fine and glad anet hasn’t knee jerked it into the ground.

Loxsus.3841:

5s of uptime for our ELITE slot at that.

As far as I’m concerned, elite skills in GW2 are just a way to force everyone to take one kind-of-long-cooldown utility from a particular subset.

In my experience, vanilla Mass Invis is more versatile than Moa or Time Warp and just as potent in a lot of circumstances. Pretty good for a skill with half the cooldown.

ASP.8093:

Loxsus.3841:

5s of uptime for our ELITE slot at that.

As far as I’m concerned, elite skills in GW2 are just a way to force everyone to take one kind-of-long-cooldown utility from a particular subset.

In my experience, vanilla Mass Invis is more versatile than Moa or Time Warp and just as potent in a lot of circumstances. Pretty good for a skill with half the cooldown.

The other elites could use to have their cooldowns reduced a bit for the mesmers. I think timewarp could be on a similar cooldown. Moa has a passive now which isn’t the worst while the active is pretty backbreaking.

Mass Invis is considered the best option when playing with an unorganized team mostly because it allows you to escape outnumbered fights and has a shorter cd than the others. In a more organized setting though, Time Warp can turn a 2v2 or 3v3 on point into a massacre and Moa can stop a Lich or Rampager before they can crack your bunker. Mass Invis is kind of a reactive measure to when those things already happen while Time Warp is proactive and Moa shuts them down before they’re an issue in the first place.

Tealots.6095:

I still find PU to be more of an issue with a condition-based Mesmer than a power one. This is, perhaps, coming from the fact that I came across a duo of two PU condition mesmers in SPvP yesterday and trying to survive was absolutely brutal and impossible. Especially with zero cleanse.

So you tried a no-cleanse approach to conditions and died? What did you expect? If you don’t have any cleanses, their actual damage output just doesn’t matter. Period. They will kill you, as you cannot do anything about it.

It’s the equivalent of not dodging, pretty much.

Tealots.6095:

I still find PU to be more of an issue with a condition-based Mesmer than a power one. This is, perhaps, coming from the fact that I came across a duo of two PU condition mesmers in SPvP yesterday and trying to survive was absolutely brutal and impossible. Especially with zero cleanse.

Having zero condi cleanse means you also have zero chance of beating a condi PU mesmer 1v1 or surviving against their condi AoE in group fights so this is not really a good example of how powerful they are. You should have slotted Inspiration and focused more on exploiting their weaknesses and trying to win the match to better gauge how effective they are.

Not to say they aren’t powerful but your example is a very lobsided match in their favor which can bias your opinion. I run Inspiration and generally ignore condi PU mesmers in group fights while providing my teammates with situational condi cleanses. Trying to 1v1 them is playing to their strengths and something I largely avoid.

They need to revert PU back to what it used to be before the watered down boons and simply buff Veil to last for 6s and Mass Invisibility to last for 8s.

The issue with PU is Torch/Decoy, which benefits the most from the buffed PU change.