Guild Wars 2

Gearing up a Mesmer for WvW roaming, both solo and small group. Is Condi PU good for both? If so, what trait set up? If not, what do y’all find to be the best solo build and best group build?

Personally, I think a lockdown build would be better. Though I did trait for traditional PU (4/4/6/0/0) during a small scale gvg once. Most skills of PU will only affect a single target. I also happened to be wearing a Dire set (at the request of my guild) at the time of the fight. In a group, I suppose it is decent. I love Chaos Storm and often use it defensively rather than offensively. On a whole, though, you’re not going to offer much support or damage.

Some things to consider when asking about builds for wvw: What tier server you belong to (Gold/Silver/Bronze); on a Bronze server you can get away with anything. The likelihood of running into another player are fairly slim. On the higher tiers you will be running into at least one player if not a whole group while crossing the map. The grade of your server will determine what build you should run and when.

I am on Yak’s Bend. My two staple roaming builds are CI lockdown (4/4/6/0/0) and PU (4/4/6/0/0). I use CI for the burst. If I am going to flip a small objective, like a camp, I’m going to need that burst to kill most of the npcs relatively quickly. This one can also offer some decent survivability depending on the weapons you use. I use PU when I am not interested in capping objectives and know I will be running into one or more enemies at a time. A good PU can bait and survive at least three players. Some people claim to have held off a 5v1 for a while, but I’m a skeptic… Until I see it I won’t believe it.

How big of a group are we talking? A squad, a guild group, or a zerg? In a zerg you want something more like shatter build; CI might work, but it is usually a game of tagging in a zerg. Depending on the size of your guild, your driver will usually determine what kind of build you will run. On the other hand, if your guild is relaxed they really won’t care what you run. As a squad of competent players, why not try it? If you’re going to run together regularly you’ll need to find something that will compliment the builds they are using.

PU condie is still very much the optimal solo roaming build. You can get away with lockdowns, shatters, and whatever you want…until you run into a competent thief/cele ele/cele engie or something and you get melted. PU condie is also the only build really capable of maintaining outnumbered fights effectively.

In a small group, PU condie still works fine, but you have more options at that point. Shatter, lockdown, even phantasm builds have a place in a small group comp.

Calliope, is your CI build power or condi?

A power build. I wear zerker armor with mesmer runes.

for roaming 1vx pu condi isnt much effective if your enemies notice you r pu
they will just disengage as it will borning slow fight
also few mtea wvw build can kill pu easily as mention above

for roaming or small group go power build like 4,4,6 pu power or shatter 4,4,0,0,6

if you wanna test something new go 4,4,0,0,6 or 0,4,4,0,6 condi shatter which can handle nice 1vx and also give great group aoe pressure

PU condi offers the best escapes and will allow you to kill almost anyone that isn’t smart enough to move out of your range.

I have a non-pu condi Mesmer build on my YouTube channel. It works nicely because some players think it’s PU but I can do a 5 clone shatter creating a 10 torment stack AOE. In the video you see me land it on a near full health guardian and he gets downed in like 4 secs.
http://youtu.be/htmaw1uSzKU

messiah.1908:

for roaming 1vx pu condi isnt much effective if your enemies notice you r pu
they will just disengage as it will borning slow fight

Only boring and slow if that’s how you fight with the build.

messiah.1908:

also few mtea wvw build can kill pu easily as mention above

There is no meta build other than the ‘meta’ of running a 3 thief gank party that can kill a PU build easily.

messiah.1908:

for roaming or small group go power build like 4,4,6 pu power or shatter 4,4,0,0,6

Small group, sure. Roaming, not unless you want to get dumped on.

messiah.1908:

if you wanna test something new go 4,4,0,0,6 or 0,4,4,0,6 condi shatter which can handle nice 1vx and also give great group aoe pressure

Condie shatter handles 1vx better than power shatter…but it still doesn’t handle it very well. I wouldn’t recommend condie shatter as a solo roaming build for the same reasons as the other ones, you just don’t have the defense and sustain for it.

Fay.2357:

messiah.1908:

for roaming 1vx pu condi isnt much effective if your enemies notice you r pu
they will just disengage as it will borning slow fight

Only boring and slow if that’s how you fight with the build.

messiah.1908:

also few mtea wvw build can kill pu easily as mention above

There is no meta build other than the ‘meta’ of running a 3 thief gank party that can kill a PU build easily.

messiah.1908:

for roaming or small group go power build like 4,4,6 pu power or shatter 4,4,0,0,6

Small group, sure. Roaming, not unless you want to get dumped on.

messiah.1908:

if you wanna test something new go 4,4,0,0,6 or 0,4,4,0,6 condi shatter which can handle nice 1vx and also give great group aoe pressure

Condie shatter handles 1vx better than power shatter…but it still doesn’t handle it very well. I wouldn’t recommend condie shatter as a solo roaming build for the same reasons as the other ones, you just don’t have the defense and sustain for it.

I’ve run most builds while roaming and condition builds are really the best for survival and 1vsX, but god it gets boring after a while, its too easy. Right now I only run Vash shatter build, it’s so much fun since you gotta be on your top all the time and beating thieves is the best feeling in the world with shatter. Oooor when you instakill a ranger or attack a group for a laugh, down one, stomp and then get away! woooaaa!

Fay.2357:

messiah.1908:

for roaming 1vx pu condi isnt much effective if your enemies notice you r pu
they will just disengage as it will borning slow fight

Only boring and slow if that’s how you fight with the build.

messiah.1908:

also few mtea wvw build can kill pu easily as mention above

There is no meta build other than the ‘meta’ of running a 3 thief gank party that can kill a PU build easily.

messiah.1908:

for roaming or small group go power build like 4,4,6 pu power or shatter 4,4,0,0,6

Small group, sure. Roaming, not unless you want to get dumped on.

messiah.1908:

if you wanna test something new go 4,4,0,0,6 or 0,4,4,0,6 condi shatter which can handle nice 1vx and also give great group aoe pressure

Condie shatter handles 1vx better than power shatter…but it still doesn’t handle it very well. I wouldn’t recommend condie shatter as a solo roaming build for the same reasons as the other ones, you just don’t have the defense and sustain for it.

yes its boring to put 3 clones go stealth and put 3 more as you only play most of the time defense (like turret engi)

any decent guardian, warrior, ele, s/d or d/p thief easily wont feel the conditions output of pu
DD trait after the patch is bit useless against -60% condi duration
i play shatter condi in wvw and can easily handle 1v2 (in tpvp its harder)

the main defense difference from pu its the aegis and protection so if play smartly you can kill in 4-5 sec kittenter condi rather as pu you will need 15-20 sec

04046 and 04226 and I don’t consider either to be lacking in defense for roaming solo WvW.

messiah.1908:

yes its boring to put 3 clones go stealth and put 3 more as you only play most of the time defense (like turret engi)

That does sound awfully boring. As I said, it’s boring if you play that way. I would never even consider playing in such a boring and passive fashion.

messiah.1908:

any decent guardian, warrior, ele, s/d or d/p thief easily wont feel the conditions output of pu

Seems to me like they just don’t feel the condition output that you make, because you play in such a boring and passive fashion.

Any build is what you make of it. If you play boring, then you’ll get boring. If you play active and aggressive, you get active and aggressive.

Fay.2357:

messiah.1908:

yes its boring to put 3 clones go stealth and put 3 more as you only play most of the time defense (like turret engi)

That does sound awfully boring. As I said, it’s boring if you play that way. I would never even consider playing in such a boring and passive fashion.

messiah.1908:

any decent guardian, warrior, ele, s/d or d/p thief easily wont feel the conditions output of pu

Seems to me like they just don’t feel the condition output that you make, because you play in such a boring and passive fashion.

Any build is what you make of it. If you play boring, then you’ll get boring. If you play active and aggressive, you get active and aggressive.

i am eager to see how you play aggressively with 4,4,6,0,0 pu condi build

messiah.1908:

Fay.2357:

messiah.1908:

yes its boring to put 3 clones go stealth and put 3 more as you only play most of the time defense (like turret engi)

That does sound awfully boring. As I said, it’s boring if you play that way. I would never even consider playing in such a boring and passive fashion.

messiah.1908:

any decent guardian, warrior, ele, s/d or d/p thief easily wont feel the conditions output of pu

Seems to me like they just don’t feel the condition output that you make, because you play in such a boring and passive fashion.

Any build is what you make of it. If you play boring, then you’ll get boring. If you play active and aggressive, you get active and aggressive.

i am eager to see how you play aggressively with 4,4,6,0,0 pu condi build

You attack them and apply pressure? Use your skillset in an aggressive manner? I’m not sure exactly how to tell you how to play aggressive. You just don’t dodge a few times to set up clones and then afk.

Step into an attack to intentionally trigger Illusionary Counter with the scepter (provided it will not cc you). Use your Confusing Images and Phantasmal Mage to stack up some confusion and tank a few hits. As a PU you’re not going to go down very easily. Slap Chaos Storm on the ground and stand in it.

Pyro, do u use iDis with PU build in WvW or Is it always The cleanse mantra?

keenlam.4753:

Pyro, do u use iDis with PU build in WvW or Is it always The cleanse mantra?

I’ll almost always use the disenchanter. Having that boon removal is almost as important as the condition removal.

Fay.2357:

messiah.1908:

Fay.2357:

messiah.1908:

yes its boring to put 3 clones go stealth and put 3 more as you only play most of the time defense (like turret engi)

That does sound awfully boring. As I said, it’s boring if you play that way. I would never even consider playing in such a boring and passive fashion.

messiah.1908:

any decent guardian, warrior, ele, s/d or d/p thief easily wont feel the conditions output of pu

Seems to me like they just don’t feel the condition output that you make, because you play in such a boring and passive fashion.

Any build is what you make of it. If you play boring, then you’ll get boring. If you play active and aggressive, you get active and aggressive.

i am eager to see how you play aggressively with 4,4,6,0,0 pu condi build

You attack them and apply pressure? Use your skillset in an aggressive manner? I’m not sure exactly how to tell you how to play aggressive. You just don’t dodge a few times to set up clones and then afk.

so yes pu is not aggerssive play style as you discribe it
to put clones which put conditions pressure – how to put clones – #2 or dodge
and you want to draw the attention from your colnes to you thus you must play more defensively while your clones do all the dmg like using viel/ torch etc to buy some time for you cd . if you get chaos armor you are easily targeted thus again pkay defensively as you cannot burst the pressure the enemy to play defensive

kittenter (condi or power) you are the one who do all the dmg thus must play more agressively and hit your shatter skills at the right moment while pu hardly use them at all (maybe F3 or F4)

messiah.1908:

so yes pu is not aggerssive play style as you discribe it
to put clones which put conditions pressure – how to put clones – #2 or dodge
and you want to draw the attention from your colnes to you thus you must play more defensively while your clones do all the dmg like using viel/ torch etc to buy some time for you cd . if you get chaos armor you are easily targeted thus again pkay defensively as you cannot burst the pressure the enemy to play defensive

kittenter (condi or power) you are the one who do all the dmg thus must play more agressively and hit your shatter skills at the right moment while pu hardly use them at all (maybe F3 or F4)

Yoohoo, I posted a couple ideas on how to be “aggressive” with PU. You use your scepter/torch. Staff is far more defensive than offensive. If you hope to kill your opponent with any sort of speed you will have to do it with scepter and torch. Just because you don’t know how to play aggressively does not mean you can put the build down as “non-aggressive.” It just means you never took the time to learn how to utilize the build.

Calliope.8675:

messiah.1908:

so yes pu is not aggerssive play style as you discribe it
to put clones which put conditions pressure – how to put clones – #2 or dodge
and you want to draw the attention from your colnes to you thus you must play more defensively while your clones do all the dmg like using viel/ torch etc to buy some time for you cd . if you get chaos armor you are easily targeted thus again pkay defensively as you cannot burst the pressure the enemy to play defensive

kittenter (condi or power) you are the one who do all the dmg thus must play more agressively and hit your shatter skills at the right moment while pu hardly use them at all (maybe F3 or F4)

Yoohoo, I posted a couple ideas on how to be “aggressive” with PU. You use your scepter/torch. Staff is far more defensive than offensive. If you hope to kill your opponent with any sort of speed you will have to do it with scepter and torch. Just because you don’t know how to play aggressively does not mean you can put the build down as “non-aggressive.” It just means you never took the time to learn how to utilize the build.

sry its seems that i just troll this issue

i played pu long time ago and here and there
using your #2 scepter doesnt make you agrressive . shatter condi also use this

the main differese is the f1-4 which pu hardly use and shatter must use and must use it right like stand close to make sure the shatters hit . if you stand close you must be carful from enemy burst etc…

for me if i compare condi shatter and pu its seems that pu is more easy going while i am eating and much longer fight with greater success while condi shatter is more fast move build also with above average success

also if i fight egainst pu build i hardly die and most of them abuse stealth as i try to use aoe to kill clones and put pressure on the mesmer then he blink and stealth away

there is a reason why ppl called it cheess build

Yes cheese is good to eat. But it is used by players constantly way pointing back to starting point. Or raging as u lie motionless.

It’s only cheese if you don’t know how to kill it, which makes the other player an idiot for not knowing their own class better. Yes, I will concede that PU is an easy build to use, but it doesn’t make you “good” at it if you use it poorly. And, as you have so graciously pointed out, you used PU a long time ago, which renders your knowledge on this topic outdated. Things have changed over the last two years and quite a lot. PU is different, still a strong build, but different none-the-less.

Killing another class requires two things: knowledge of your class plus knowledge of the class you are facing. As pointed out earlier, you can’t just pop out some clones and go afk with PU. Yes, you can play aggressively with Counter. It has a 15 second cool down, which is another 5 stacks of torment. Yes, a good PU will use their shatters more. Maybe not F1, but definitely the rest. It’s not about powering down your opponent, but wearing them down with conditions. Confusion is an immensely powerful condition that often gets little notice. Confusing Images+Phantasmal Mage+F2 could very well equal up to 10 or 11 stacks of confusion. That is more than enough to kill someone. Oh, and I would use F1 to finish off an opponent. A new player to PU may not use shatters right a way, but a veteran player would. Mesmers are all about timing.

Calliope.8675:

messiah.1908:

so yes pu is not aggerssive play style as you discribe it
to put clones which put conditions pressure – how to put clones – #2 or dodge
and you want to draw the attention from your colnes to you thus you must play more defensively while your clones do all the dmg like using viel/ torch etc to buy some time for you cd . if you get chaos armor you are easily targeted thus again pkay defensively as you cannot burst the pressure the enemy to play defensive

kittenter (condi or power) you are the one who do all the dmg thus must play more agressively and hit your shatter skills at the right moment while pu hardly use them at all (maybe F3 or F4)

Yoohoo, I posted a couple ideas on how to be “aggressive” with PU. You use your scepter/torch. Staff is far more defensive than offensive. If you hope to kill your opponent with any sort of speed you will have to do it with scepter and torch. Just because you don’t know how to play aggressively does not mean you can put the build down as “non-aggressive.” It just means you never took the time to learn how to utilize the build.

Pu Condi is not an aggressive play style. Its primary damage (Sc 2) requires that you get hit, or other player is attacking you (confusion). Trying to insist to others that they just don’t know how to play it aggressively doesn’t hold water with anyone who has played the spec extensively.

That isn’t to say that running a defensive spec is a bad thing or a knock on PU, as I still mess around with the trait from time to time. But aggressive, it is not.

Well again the players experience will decide the tempo. A sword/pistol scepter/torch pu condi build is very in you face. Pu is a good trait for roaming in wvw.

alanis.6094:

Calliope.8675:

messiah.1908:

so yes pu is not aggerssive play style as you discribe it
to put clones which put conditions pressure – how to put clones – #2 or dodge
and you want to draw the attention from your colnes to you thus you must play more defensively while your clones do all the dmg like using viel/ torch etc to buy some time for you cd . if you get chaos armor you are easily targeted thus again pkay defensively as you cannot burst the pressure the enemy to play defensive

kittenter (condi or power) you are the one who do all the dmg thus must play more agressively and hit your shatter skills at the right moment while pu hardly use them at all (maybe F3 or F4)

Yoohoo, I posted a couple ideas on how to be “aggressive” with PU. You use your scepter/torch. Staff is far more defensive than offensive. If you hope to kill your opponent with any sort of speed you will have to do it with scepter and torch. Just because you don’t know how to play aggressively does not mean you can put the build down as “non-aggressive.” It just means you never took the time to learn how to utilize the build.

Pu Condi is not an aggressive play style. Its primary damage (Sc 2) requires that you get hit, or other player is attacking you (confusion). Trying to insist to others that they just don’t know how to play it aggressively doesn’t hold water with anyone who has played the spec extensively.

That isn’t to say that running a defensive spec is a bad thing or a knock on PU, as I still mess around with the trait from time to time. But aggressive, it is not.

It can be played aggressively. I have played it extensively. I do know what I’m talking about.

Calliope.8675:

It’s only cheese if you don’t know how to kill it, which makes the other player an idiot for not knowing their own class better. Yes, I will concede that PU is an easy build to use, but it doesn’t make you “good” at it if you use it poorly. And, as you have so graciously pointed out, you used PU a long time ago, which renders your knowledge on this topic outdated. Things have changed over the last two years and quite a lot. PU is different, still a strong build, but different none-the-less.

Killing another class requires two things: knowledge of your class plus knowledge of the class you are facing. As pointed out earlier, you can’t just pop out some clones and go afk with PU. Yes, you can play aggressively with Counter. It has a 15 second cool down, which is another 5 stacks of torment. Yes, a good PU will use their shatters more. Maybe not F1, but definitely the rest. It’s not about powering down your opponent, but wearing them down with conditions. Confusion is an immensely powerful condition that often gets little notice. Confusing Images+Phantasmal Mage+F2 could very well equal up to 10 or 11 stacks of confusion. That is more than enough to kill someone. Oh, and I would use F1 to finish off an opponent. A new player to PU may not use shatters right a way, but a veteran player would. Mesmers are all about timing.

maybe i am bit missunderstood regarding my pov on passiv and aggressive

the fact that i have played pu since 2 years ago (which hardly the build got change rather nerf with pu and DD trait) makes me more knowledgeable on it

for me to be aggressive it means that i can put my enemy on defense most of the time till he dies like power shatter – go stealth use izerk sword leap and BOOM 2 shatter which kill or get your enemy on 10% hp so he must go defense
same with condi shatter he can start like pu (most enemy wont know what r u so it give you adventage)
then at the right moment you shatter 3 times making your enemy go defense

pu build put you most of the time on defense as it require you to lure the enemy to kill your clones for DD trait while you make some more and or use your own skills like scepter 2+3 and torch 5 to put 8 confusion and 5 torment at the right time usually you hit them from stealth after you use torch 4
but again your enemy must attack you to proc confusion so you must play defense

so the more you defense the more dmg you’re doing

condi shatter with 3 shatter time right can do 15 confusion and 15-20 torment with lower armor and no aegis and protection must play more agrressive as he cant stand if the enemy pressure with thier burst (not like pu can)

again i dont say pu is not effective just its slower, ppl know how to deal with it (just dont fight it) the dmg is not so overwhelming for condi build

in tpvp i see some pu build and i just ignore them while i am holding point, or killing their friends and if they do manage to put on me burning 5 bleeding and 3 confusion i just cleanse them and pressure them with torment and they stealth away and heal

Again why lure anyone? Just create clones sword imobb and summon more clones. Switch weapons summon clones and profit. By constantly making clones you by being aggressive cause aoe condition spread. If you watch and pray that someone kills your clones then yes it is very slow.

Calliope.8675:

alanis.6094:

Calliope.8675:

messiah.1908:

so yes pu is not aggerssive play style as you discribe it
to put clones which put conditions pressure – how to put clones – #2 or dodge
and you want to draw the attention from your colnes to you thus you must play more defensively while your clones do all the dmg like using viel/ torch etc to buy some time for you cd . if you get chaos armor you are easily targeted thus again pkay defensively as you cannot burst the pressure the enemy to play defensive

kittenter (condi or power) you are the one who do all the dmg thus must play more agressively and hit your shatter skills at the right moment while pu hardly use them at all (maybe F3 or F4)

Yoohoo, I posted a couple ideas on how to be “aggressive” with PU. You use your scepter/torch. Staff is far more defensive than offensive. If you hope to kill your opponent with any sort of speed you will have to do it with scepter and torch. Just because you don’t know how to play aggressively does not mean you can put the build down as “non-aggressive.” It just means you never took the time to learn how to utilize the build.

Pu Condi is not an aggressive play style. Its primary damage (Sc 2) requires that you get hit, or other player is attacking you (confusion). Trying to insist to others that they just don’t know how to play it aggressively doesn’t hold water with anyone who has played the spec extensively.

That isn’t to say that running a defensive spec is a bad thing or a knock on PU, as I still mess around with the trait from time to time. But aggressive, it is not.

It can be played aggressively. I have played it extensively. I do know what I’m talking about.

Well sure, if you want to argue that you can play it “more aggressive” than essentially sitting and doing almost nothing, then bravo. But its the most defensive weapon sets paired with the most defensive trait we have, in our most defensive trait line. With most of its damage relying on the opponent engaging/attacking you. Its a fine and powerful spec, but I can’t think of a roaming spec we’d have that would be less aggressive.

Lol can we just agree at least PU build won’t be played as aggressively as sh@tter build?

Define ‘aggressive’ in its absolute term won’t make sense since it depends how each person thinks of it.

Just a side note. When I play shatter in wvw I have to carefully pick my engagements. With pu you can look for outnumbered fights. That is hyper aggressive to me.

PU condie is not a playstyle, it is a build. You can play it however you choose. The fact that you have so much innate defense in the build actually allows you to be far more aggressive in most situations than you could be in other builds.

Aggressiveness is simply a function of how you use your skills. Do you use phase retreat just to run away, or so you use it on top of them while in chaos storm to generate chaos armor? Do you toss down chaos storm for aegis and area denial, or do you use it offensively to interrupt, chill, and poison. Do you save the block for the very biggest skill they have, or do you endeavor to activate it on every possible attack? Do you use the prestige to run away, or do you use it as an opportunity to close distance and get hefty aoe burns onto enemies?

Aggressive is all in the playstyle. You can play both passively and aggressively in every build there is, including PU condie. Complaining about a build being passive is like saying that a random glass in your cabinet can only be used for water, but not juice. The glass is simply a vessel, what you put into it is your choice alone.

messiah.1908:

so yes pu is not aggerssive play style as you discribe it

• Use all 10 buttons, at least 5 of which are attacks = aggressive.
• Use all 10 buttons, at least 5 of which are attacks = not aggressive?

I fail to see where you make the distinction.

keenlam.4753:

Lol can we just agree at least PU build won’t be played as aggressively as sh@tter build?

Again, I fail to see the difference in play.
Now if you mean that a power shatter built can die faster, then yes, usually it can. But two questions:

• Would a Nomad-equipped Power Shatter build not last significantly longer than a Sinister-equipped PU Condi build?
• What’s the downside of having more defense if the situation is one where better survival directly translates into easier wins? As in, 1v1. I know it means you take longer to kill, but assuming you’re really just out for 1v1 combat that hardly matters since you win more reliably.

So to recap and stay on topic:

PU Condi and PU Power are the best solo roaming builds despite their flaws,Power Shatter and CI Lockdown are the best for havoc groups, and Shatter Condi fits somewhere in that too. Did I miss anything? Anybody else want to add anything?

Maybe something like this for WVW group play?

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fhAQNAsdRlknpGtFqxMNcrNipxY6biJHSGQDlslxB-TlCFwANVOA4QAcVJISlcCeCAd0DkRTQt9HUp+TiTAAZAy3CA-w

I played Ranger in GW1 so I like the interrupt idea. Greatsword or staff though?

For CI Staff is strong because of Chaos Storm. You can use both weapons with that build, it is just a matter of what you like. I typically end up using sword/focus or pistol with staff. I haven’t tried it with GS/Staff though. I like sword too much to relinquish it! I think Warlord of Chaos uses gs/staff though, for CI as well kittenter.

So my logic behind Sw/F is that with Pack runes your swiftness from curtain lasts over 20 seconds. I did the math and over a 25 second sprint (the cooldown of curtain) you have an average speed of 26.something%, meaning that you don’t really need Traveler’s runes. If I did GS/Staff, I’d lose the awesomeness that is Pack runes. I’ll try both GS and Staff and see which I like better.

Carighan.6758:

messiah.1908:

so yes pu is not aggerssive play style as you discribe it

• Use all 10 buttons, at least 5 of which are attacks = aggressive.
• Use all 10 buttons, at least 5 of which are attacks = not aggressive?

I fail to see where you make the distinction.

keenlam.4753:

Lol can we just agree at least PU build won’t be played as aggressively as sh@tter build?

Again, I fail to see the difference in play.
Now if you mean that a power shatter built can die faster, then yes, usually it can. But two questions:

• Would a Nomad-equipped Power Shatter build not last significantly longer than a Sinister-equipped PU Condi build?
• What’s the downside of having more defense if the situation is one where better survival directly translates into easier wins? As in, 1v1. I know it means you take longer to kill, but assuming you’re really just out for 1v1 combat that hardly matters since you win more reliably.

pushing your buttons doesnt make you to play aggressive or passive
passive playstyle can be both the player and the build used
so an aggressive player with passive build can be seen.

so if you have more defense in your skill/utilities bar is force you to play more passive as those skills dont do dmg
if you have more control skills (like cc) it force you to a more bait playstyle eg to bait your enemy for the right moment to strike
if you have more dmg skills it force you to play more aggressive playstyle for faster kill

pu as a build used gives you the ability not dying easily and forgivable to mistakes and easy to execute while doing dmg slower than any other builds . thus make it an effective build for roaming (compare p/d condi to s/d power build as thief)

shatter builds are less forgivable as any mistakes you do can cost you your life which make you to fight harder and sometimes over commit to secure the kill , they are high risk high reward fast phase

to beat a pu build usually the enemy use an aggressive playstyle to bait the pu to focus more on defense and escape utilities

hope it make sense now

Not really. To kill any mesmer all you need to do is condition to them to death. Even a PU will run out of cleanses (depending on utilities or lack thereof). Moreover, something Pyro taught me, PU relies on the retaliation of the other player. So the more they hit you the more likely they are to kill themselves.

Right, so let me go through this post and point out how everything you said is wrong.

messiah.1908:

so if you have more defense in your skill/utilities bar is force you to play more passive as those skills dont do dmg

So this is wrong. Having defensive skills on your bar provides you with the ability to use them, but doesn’t force you to use them. Additionally, there are absolutely no skills for mesmer that have a 1-dimensional use. Every skill has multiple uses, multiple types of uses, different ways they can be used. Trying to term skills as pure defense or pure offense is just foolish.

messiah.1908:

if you have more control skills (like cc) it force you to a more bait playstyle eg to bait your enemy for the right moment to strike

No it doesn’t. Having more control skills gives you some options. It allows you to go into a baiting playstyle. It also allows you to aggressively pressure and then lockdown. It also allows you to play passively and interrupt the larger skills as they use them.

Since it allows for a type of passive play, I guess we should call all builds with control skills passive, right? No, of course not. That would be stupid.

messiah.1908:

if you have more dmg skills it force you to play more aggressive playstyle for faster kill

Alternatively, you could kite around and play defensively, waiting for your enemy to overextend, and then capitalize on that instead of pushing and pressuring yourself.

Taking certain skills doesn’t force anyone to do a kitten thing. You always have choices. You always can take any build and play it in a fashion that fits how you want to use it.

messiah.1908:

pu as a build used gives you the ability not dying easily and forgivable to mistakes

I take it back, not everything you said was wrong, this clause is actually fairly accurate.

messiah.1908:

and easy to execute while doing dmg slower than any other builds.

This clause is wrong though. PU condie has the potential to output very high damage under the correct circumstances. Incidentally, those circumstances happen to be ones that glassier builds will be outputting little to no damage.

messiah.1908:

thus make it an effective build for roaming (compare p/d condi to s/d power build as thief)

And while this conclusion is also accurate, it’s arrived at by drastically incorrect statements. I’ll classify this one as wrong as well.

messiah.1908:

shatter builds are less forgivable as any mistakes you do can cost you your life

This is such a general statement. There’s tons of mistakes you can make on shatter builds that won’t kill you. Similarly, there are tons of mistakes you can make on a PU condie build that will kill you. The difference is in the type of mistake and the circumstances you’ll tend to make it in.

messiah.1908:

which make you to fight harder and sometimes over commit to secure the kill , they are high risk high reward fast phase

Again, the qualities of the build don’t make you do anything. You can fight more aggressively and over-commit (I don’t think this means what you think it means), or you can play in other ways, baiting and then punishing.

messiah.1908:

to beat a pu build usually the enemy use an aggressive playstyle to bait the pu to focus more on defense and escape utilities

If you try to beat a PU build by playing aggressively, you’re going to have a bad time.

hope it make sense now

Several things are making sense, but your arguments aren’t one of them.

Eh. I destroy on Shatter condi faster then I ever could with PU condi. Since the patch I’m yet to lose a 1 v 1 with shatter condi against even the best players. Only chance of going down is 1 v 2 or more, 1 v 1 is a no-contest, they signed their death warrant. But it does have its limit and cant sustain on the same number of people as PU condi. But it can win 1 v 3 if you play at the top of your game, but its a lot of pressure to handle.

Are we seriously having this boring, passive, conversation again? Again playing full zerk does not make you more skillful than someone playing PU.

Being aggressive is subjective too. is Playing full zerk shatter mesmer only aggressive? I bet someone who does not play defense goes to the downstate a lot.

Kaamau.5341:

Eh. I destroy on Shatter condi faster then I ever could with PU condi. Since the patch I’m yet to lose a 1 v 1 with shatter condi against even the best players. Only chance of going down is 1 v 2 or more, 1 v 1 is a no-contest, they signed their death warrant. But it does have its limit and cant sustain on the same number of people as PU condi. But it can win 1 v 3 if you play at the top of your game, but its a lot of pressure to handle.

I would like to test your unbeaten statement with the build. Add me Ingame.

@FAY – read i what i wrote first
“passive playstyle can be both the player and the build used
so an aggressive player with passive build can be seen.”
your statement are mainly for the player playstyle while i am talking the build playstyle
so you say tomato i say tometo

also lockdown build are bait playstyle and not passive as i said above

so considering what you said above every build in the game consider aggressive which is wrong thus i think you mean the player play style which can be aggressive which is true

as it become boring with no videos to demonstrate i will say no more

p.s
so far almost every pu mesmer i see in wvw just use veil decoy torch4 too much
while if i play aggressive they just abuse stealth (even power pu sometimes)

StickerHappy.8052:

Kaamau.5341:

Eh. I destroy on Shatter condi faster then I ever could with PU condi. Since the patch I’m yet to lose a 1 v 1 with shatter condi against even the best players. Only chance of going down is 1 v 2 or more, 1 v 1 is a no-contest, they signed their death warrant. But it does have its limit and cant sustain on the same number of people as PU condi. But it can win 1 v 3 if you play at the top of your game, but its a lot of pressure to handle.

I would like to test your unbeaten statement with the build. Add me Ingame.

shatter condi is great build which ppl in tpvp hardly used to it
1v1 is harder if the enemy prepare for it

like s/d have better chance to kill you
also d/p if abuse stealth and bs
also power shatter very hard to kill
all other build are more easy to handle especially the mata build in the tpvp as they dont handle codni pressure well

warrior hambow has 1 skills which helps him berserker stance. so w8 10 sec and burst
ranger – no match. even condi ones but can be harder
d/d ele – has nice condi cleanse but your pressure can kill them as they need to spam skills and move to stay alive so confusion and torment are your best friend
s/f ele – can be harder if he catch you with his huge burst so just block
turret engi – are great guarding a point but out of it they just melting
condi engi – fair fight but condi kill them fast
guardian – if you trait right 4,4,0,0,6 they will have no boons and die
med guard – can be hard thus you need to use more clones less shatter so they wont burst you easily

this is my experience

in wvw much easier and my condi dmg is +2k with duration of 40%-80% while in tpvp its 1.5k and 15%-35% duration

messiah.1908:

@FAY – read i what i wrote first

No, you read what I wrote. You just keep repeating the same wrong and blatantly misleading opinions over and over with no logic, reasoning, or evidence to support them, as if saying them again will make them more true.

messiah.1908:

“passive playstyle can be both the player and the build used
so an aggressive player with passive build can be seen.”
your statement are mainly for the player playstyle while i am talking the build playstyle

Grossly wrong statements like this. The build playstyle? I’ve already explained how builds don’t have playstyles. Those are two separate ideas that don’t clash. You keep going on about how builds are passive, and that’s just incredibly misleading and wrong. Builds aren’t passive, players are passive.

messiah.1908:

also lockdown build are bait playstyle and not passive as i said above

And once again you completely ignore everything I said and mindlessly repeat incorrect assertions. Lockdown builds are builds, that’s all. You can choose to play them however you want; passive, aggressive, passive aggressive, whatever.

You’re stuck in this ridiculous mindset of ‘my build completely and totally defines the way I play, and neither myself nor anyone else may ever deviate from the preconceived notions that I have about these builds’. It’s almost comical really.

messiah.1908:

so considering what you said above every build in the game consider aggressive

No, I said that every build in the game is simply a build, and is considered neither passive nor aggressive.

messiah.1908:

thus i think you mean the player play style which can be aggressive which is true

I have literally said this exact thing multiple times in every post I’ve made. How are you just getting it now? Playstyles are aggressive or passive, not builds.

messiah.1908:

as it become boring with no videos to demonstrate i will say no more

wat.jpg

messiah.1908:

p.s
so far almost every pu mesmer i see in wvw just use veil decoy torch4 too much
while if i play aggressive they just abuse stealth (even power pu sometimes)

And almost every shatter Mesmer I see in wvw bashes themselves against my torment and dies in less than 15 seconds. Look, I can anecdote too!

Video examples of pu condi played aggresively:

https://www.youtube.com/user/TheWingIsPurple

Do we really care that much if it’s passive or not? Let’s just all agree that PU is sunglasses passive aggressive.

YEEEEEEAAAAAAHHHHHHHHH

Clownmug.8357:

Video examples of pu condi played aggresively:

https://www.youtube.com/user/TheWingIsPurple

i know this vids and like them all

but see how many tips are given on shatter versus condi
each move done kittenter is important rather as condi just put your illusion mage pistol while using torch stealth and use sword to secure burning poison and go stealth and all over again
you hardly use your f1-3 and AA as condi as the build dont need it

etc….

thus its true – you play aggressively as a player (and good one) (mainly because you use sword and not staff ) but the build is passive one

Fay.2357:

messiah.1908:

@FAY – read i what i wrote first

No, you read what I wrote. You just keep repeating the same wrong and blatantly misleading opinions over and over with no logic, reasoning, or evidence to support them, as if saying them again will make them more true.

messiah.1908:

“passive playstyle can be both the player and the build used
so an aggressive player with passive build can be seen.”
your statement are mainly for the player playstyle while i am talking the build playstyle

Grossly wrong statements like this. The build playstyle? I’ve already explained how builds don’t have playstyles. Those are two separate ideas that don’t clash. You keep going on about how builds are passive, and that’s just incredibly misleading and wrong. Builds aren’t passive, players are passive.

messiah.1908:

also lockdown build are bait playstyle and not passive as i said above

And once again you completely ignore everything I said and mindlessly repeat incorrect assertions. Lockdown builds are builds, that’s all. You can choose to play them however you want; passive, aggressive, passive aggressive, whatever.

You’re stuck in this ridiculous mindset of ‘my build completely and totally defines the way I play, and neither myself nor anyone else may ever deviate from the preconceived notions that I have about these builds’. It’s almost comical really.

messiah.1908:

so considering what you said above every build in the game consider aggressive

No, I said that every build in the game is simply a build, and is considered neither passive nor aggressive.

messiah.1908:

thus i think you mean the player play style which can be aggressive which is true

I have literally said this exact thing multiple times in every post I’ve made. How are you just getting it now? Playstyles are aggressive or passive, not builds.

messiah.1908:

as it become boring with no videos to demonstrate i will say no more

wat.jpg

messiah.1908:

p.s
so far almost every pu mesmer i see in wvw just use veil decoy torch4 too much
while if i play aggressive they just abuse stealth (even power pu sometimes)

And almost every shatter Mesmer I see in wvw bashes themselves against my torment and dies in less than 15 seconds. Look, I can anecdote too!

sry to disagree with you as you haven brought nothing to support your ideas

you say if i take sword over scepter which create different skills build you play the same aggressive or passive while they are both giving you different abilities

scepter use more block – bait the attack so more passive as you wait
sword – more aggressive to immobilize the player for burst

you say bunker guardian build can play his build like a med zerk guardian – NO!

i see you dont agree just look in youtube for passive/ aggressive builds and you find the differences between them as any game has them

……how is baiting somebody NOT active?

Snakebyte.2804:

……how is baiting somebody NOT active?

He’s impervious to logic, I’m done trying. I think I’ve gotten my point across to anyone that happens by this thread though.