Guild Wars 2

so with all the invis options

elite
wall
decoy
torch 4

even if i use all those speced into PU I dont have the means to stay invs— the timers on all the invis options are too long to do so.

So how are people achieving this?

Mimic = 2x Decoy

You can’t with just 1 mesmer. At 7 mesmers and a 72s CD on Mass Invis (traited) you can keep stealth up almost permanently using just the elite skill. So, there is some number in between 2 and 6 where you can – depending on traits and weapon/utility skills chosen – keep an entire group of mesmers permanently stealthed.

Or maybe they are grouped with a Thief, who can provide much better group stealth.

Anyway we can do the calculations for a group of 5 mesmers.
over a period of 72s, 50s is through Mass Invis, leaving 22s.
Torch 4, assuming permanent stealth, has a cooldown of <30s. So you can use it twice or more in the 72s period.
Decoy as well has 32s CD (traited). Again you can use it twice, at least.
2x 6s (decoy) + 2x 6s (prestige) = 24.
24>22 so with 5 mesmers running torch and decoy you can keep up permanent stealth as well.

I’d like to add that you can do this on Thief too, although they will sometimes have to stop and blast smoke fields or stand in SR.

Edit: With Pledge trait, Torch, Illusions line (for decoy CD reduction), MI, and of course PU but no veil or mimic you can theoretically keep stealth up with a group of 4 mesmers. But only barely.

With 3 mesmers, mimic (if used with decoy) and all of the above skills except veil, you can have 70.4/72s uptime (97.8%) of stealth. You can get perma stealth if veil is used by one of the 3 mesmers.

Note that I assumed stealth was permanently up for the sake of the math, so if someone screws up it might affect torch CD reduction and cause their permanent stealth to mess up.

Mimic > Torch > Decoy > Decoy > MI > Torch > Torch/Decoy (keep alternating)

You can easily hit like a minute of stealth. I guess Veil if you want to, but I’m doing this in SPvP and don’t run it.

Edit: Make sure you take “The Pledge” in the Illusions line.

Permanent stealth is possible with 2 mesmers traited for torch, PU, and manip cooldowns using mimic with decoy, mass invis, and the prestige, no veil. 3 mesmers will make it so that you don’t need mimic for the decoy.

This comes with a caveat though. While you’re permanently stealthed, you’re not undetectable. The prestige will display visual effects even when used in stealth, so sharp-eyed scouts will spot you. You’ll need to hide in a low visibility corner or keep moving to avoid getting revealed and killed.

Edit: I’m trying to work out the math to show the 2 Mesmer permastealth, but the numbers aren’t quite adding up. I’m not sure what the discrepancy is though, as I’ve done 2 Mesmer permastealth successfully ingame. I’ll need to test this one a bit, it might be that the pledge is overperforming slightly due to a rounding error. Running some rough numbers tells me that if the pledge ticked for 2%, it would result in a rotation that matches my ingame experience. I’ll try to test this more exactly later.

ah ok thanks

I thought people were complaining about 1 mesmer able to do this.

So at least for any aspect of pvp— you have to have a mesmer spec group.

punahou.3986:

ah ok thanks

I thought people were complaining about 1 mesmer able to do this.

So at least for any aspect of pvp— you have to have a mesmer spec group.

People are ignorant and complain about lots of things that are untrue. Permastealth is a fun catchphrase that people like to throw about in complaints without any justification or intelligent thought. Don’t worry too much about it.

Fay.2357:

Permanent stealth is possible with 2 mesmers traited for torch, PU, and manip cooldowns using mimic with decoy, mass invis, and the prestige, no veil. 3 mesmers will make it so that you don’t need mimic for the decoy.

This comes with a caveat though. While you’re permanently stealthed, you’re not undetectable. The prestige will display visual effects even when used in stealth, so sharp-eyed scouts will spot you. You’ll need to hide in a low visibility corner or keep moving to avoid getting revealed and killed.

Edit: I’m trying to work out the math to show the 2 Mesmer permastealth, but the numbers aren’t quite adding up. I’m not sure what the discrepancy is though, as I’ve done 2 Mesmer permastealth successfully ingame. I’ll need to test this one a bit, it might be that the pledge is overperforming slightly due to a rounding error. Running some rough numbers tells me that if the pledge ticked for 2%, it would result in a rotation that matches my ingame experience. I’ll try to test this more exactly later.

Umm……are you counting the recharge reduction of torch?

Solori.6025:

Fay.2357:

Permanent stealth is possible with 2 mesmers traited for torch, PU, and manip cooldowns using mimic with decoy, mass invis, and the prestige, no veil. 3 mesmers will make it so that you don’t need mimic for the decoy.

This comes with a caveat though. While you’re permanently stealthed, you’re not undetectable. The prestige will display visual effects even when used in stealth, so sharp-eyed scouts will spot you. You’ll need to hide in a low visibility corner or keep moving to avoid getting revealed and killed.

Edit: I’m trying to work out the math to show the 2 Mesmer permastealth, but the numbers aren’t quite adding up. I’m not sure what the discrepancy is though, as I’ve done 2 Mesmer permastealth successfully ingame. I’ll need to test this one a bit, it might be that the pledge is overperforming slightly due to a rounding error. Running some rough numbers tells me that if the pledge ticked for 2%, it would result in a rotation that matches my ingame experience. I’ll try to test this more exactly later.

Umm……are you counting the recharge reduction of torch?

Of course I am. How else would I manage to have speculation about rounding errors on the torch recharge pulses?

2 Mesmers can perma stealth as mentioned above. I was one of the testers.

punahou.3986:

ah ok thanks

I thought people were complaining about 1 mesmer able to do this.

So at least for any aspect of pvp— you have to have a mesmer spec group.

Claims of “permanent stealth” are either yes referring to groups or are simply untrue exaggerations/ignorance of those making the claims. They’re probably just thinking it’s permanent since the mesmer has so much access to it for such a sustained period of time.

I would argue a lot of the complaints are stemming from WvW, though, as now two mesmers can bounce stealth off of each other infinitely and port a whole ton of people in, whereas the old required mixture used to require a thief and with pretty big tells from SR’s, smoke fields, etc.

Fay.2357:

Solori.6025:

Fay.2357:

Permanent stealth is possible with 2 mesmers traited for torch, PU, and manip cooldowns using mimic with decoy, mass invis, and the prestige, no veil. 3 mesmers will make it so that you don’t need mimic for the decoy.

This comes with a caveat though. While you’re permanently stealthed, you’re not undetectable. The prestige will display visual effects even when used in stealth, so sharp-eyed scouts will spot you. You’ll need to hide in a low visibility corner or keep moving to avoid getting revealed and killed.

Edit: I’m trying to work out the math to show the 2 Mesmer permastealth, but the numbers aren’t quite adding up. I’m not sure what the discrepancy is though, as I’ve done 2 Mesmer permastealth successfully ingame. I’ll need to test this one a bit, it might be that the pledge is overperforming slightly due to a rounding error. Running some rough numbers tells me that if the pledge ticked for 2%, it would result in a rotation that matches my ingame experience. I’ll try to test this more exactly later.

Umm……are you counting the recharge reduction of torch?

Of course I am. How else would I manage to have speculation about rounding errors on the torch recharge pulses?

Not even gonna lie, I read that in an asuran voice….
Your typing makes me think asuran…..

Anyway..
I dunno where your error could be then, was just suggesting things you may have missed…I’ll leave your lab now :I

Solori.6025:

Fay.2357:

Solori.6025:

Fay.2357:

Permanent stealth is possible with 2 mesmers traited for torch, PU, and manip cooldowns using mimic with decoy, mass invis, and the prestige, no veil. 3 mesmers will make it so that you don’t need mimic for the decoy.

This comes with a caveat though. While you’re permanently stealthed, you’re not undetectable. The prestige will display visual effects even when used in stealth, so sharp-eyed scouts will spot you. You’ll need to hide in a low visibility corner or keep moving to avoid getting revealed and killed.

Edit: I’m trying to work out the math to show the 2 Mesmer permastealth, but the numbers aren’t quite adding up. I’m not sure what the discrepancy is though, as I’ve done 2 Mesmer permastealth successfully ingame. I’ll need to test this one a bit, it might be that the pledge is overperforming slightly due to a rounding error. Running some rough numbers tells me that if the pledge ticked for 2%, it would result in a rotation that matches my ingame experience. I’ll try to test this more exactly later.

Umm……are you counting the recharge reduction of torch?

Of course I am. How else would I manage to have speculation about rounding errors on the torch recharge pulses?

Not even gonna lie, I read that in an asuran voice….
Your typing makes me think asuran…..

Anyway..
I dunno where your error could be then, was just suggesting things you may have missed…I’ll leave your lab now :I

Well, I’m fairly certain I didn’t err in my math, so there’s probably a discrepancy somewhere in the game. That’s why I did a bit of speculation about rounding errors in how the game calculates the reduction from the prestige.

Ha! If everyone read Pyro as an Asuran, I bet fewer people would complain about tone and demeanor!

Der Buck.5439:

Ha! If everyone read Pyro as an Asuran, I bet fewer people would complain about tone and demeanor!

This is exactly how I view him whenever he says anything. Those asuran can’t help but be snarky.

A mesmer is really able to stealth for a long time because of the adept trait in illusions trait line. While only appearing to reduce stealth for 9 seconds (1.5 seconds for each second stealthed by the torch) it actually reduces stealth while stealth ed in general. If constantly stealthed, this skill has a 12 second recharge meaning it can give 6 seconds of stealth which is half the recharge time. This means you can easily spam torch 4 almost permanently with two decoys and mass invisibility.

To clarify, (I may not describe this the best) torch 4/decoy /decoy /mass invisibility stealth amounts to 6+6+6+10=28 meaning you can cast the torch 4 two more times at 12 second CD so add 6+6 to that. Torch 4 can be cast again assuming you are casting it on demand so it is really 6+6+6 Decoy had recharged so + 6. And, oh my, one can cast torch again… soo + 6 basically err 28 +6 +6 +6 +6=52 (I might have missed a CD on mimic or decoy again) and in a bit you can cast mass invisibility again at 72 sec CD because it is a manipulation. So yes, horribly broken is the torch. Basically, you can maintain 52 seconds of stealth or maybe more if you use veil. This trait probably is the source of the issue and needs a fix to 20% reduced CD

Oh I just tested it, if you stay in stealth permanently, Prestige cools down in 12 seconds. (I think) this is a bug

The trait should cause Prestige to cooldown an additional 1.5% of 30s every second (0.015*30 = 0.45 second every second from the trait).

Therefore, if you remain in stealth permanently, Prestige should cooldown at a rate 1.45 secs every second, so the actual CD should be 30/1.45 = 20.7

But it isn’t so it’s bugged. IF it worked properly, and you used both Decoy andPrestige with PU, you would get 12 seconds of +1.5% CD reduction, which adds up to 18%. So actually, a 20% flat reduction would be better than an un-bugged state of Pledge.

Summary: Pledge is broken, cools down super fast. 20% CD is actually better than Pledge (assuming it works as listed)

Edit: Thanks word filter, you can’t type 0.45 seconds because it changes it to kitten

Sunflowers.1729:

Oh I just tested it, if you stay in stealth permanently, Prestige cools down in 12 seconds. (I think) this is a bug

The trait should cause Prestige to cooldown an additional 1.5% of 30s every second (0.015*30 = 0.45 second every second from the trait).

Therefore, if you remain in stealth permanently, Prestige should cooldown at a rate 1.45 secs every second, so the actual CD should be 30/1.45 = 20.7

But it isn’t so it’s bugged. IF it worked properly, and you used both Decoy andPrestige with PU, you would get 12 seconds of +1.5% CD reduction, which adds up to 18%. So actually, a 20% flat reduction would be better than an un-bugged state of Pledge.

Summary: Pledge is broken, cools down super fast. 20% CD is actually better than Pledge (assuming it works as listed)

Edit: Thanks word filter, you can’t type 0.45 seconds because it changes it to kitten

Correct, Me and Pyro just tested this.

It should only be 20 seconds not ~13 seconds cd.

Fay.2357:

Solori.6025:

Fay.2357:

Solori.6025:

Fay.2357:

Permanent stealth is possible with 2 mesmers traited for torch, PU, and manip cooldowns using mimic with decoy, mass invis, and the prestige, no veil. 3 mesmers will make it so that you don’t need mimic for the decoy.

This comes with a caveat though. While you’re permanently stealthed, you’re not undetectable. The prestige will display visual effects even when used in stealth, so sharp-eyed scouts will spot you. You’ll need to hide in a low visibility corner or keep moving to avoid getting revealed and killed.

Edit: I’m trying to work out the math to show the 2 Mesmer permastealth, but the numbers aren’t quite adding up. I’m not sure what the discrepancy is though, as I’ve done 2 Mesmer permastealth successfully ingame. I’ll need to test this one a bit, it might be that the pledge is overperforming slightly due to a rounding error. Running some rough numbers tells me that if the pledge ticked for 2%, it would result in a rotation that matches my ingame experience. I’ll try to test this more exactly later.

Umm……are you counting the recharge reduction of torch?

Of course I am. How else would I manage to have speculation about rounding errors on the torch recharge pulses?

Not even gonna lie, I read that in an asuran voice….
Your typing makes me think asuran…..

Anyway..
I dunno where your error could be then, was just suggesting things you may have missed…I’ll leave your lab now :I

Well, I’m fairly certain I didn’t err in my math, so there’s probably a discrepancy somewhere in the game. That’s why I did a bit of speculation about rounding errors in how the game calculates the reduction from the prestige.

Funny thing, when I was writing that response I was going to say maybe our trait was bugged, but didn’t want to second guess a mathematician ( btw I totally volunteer you to help me with my calculus HW).

Anyway, Now that we found another bugged trait, should we bring this to A-nets attention before they over nerf something for no reason?

Yes, as per testing, the pledge is operating at about 3.5x its intended effectiveness. This is well beyond the range of a simple rounding error like I had originally suspected, and definitely a bug.

…that being said, if it actually functioned as intended, the trait would be absolute garbage.

Fay.2357:

Yes, as per testing, the pledge is operating at about 3.5x its intended effectiveness. This is well beyond the range of a simple rounding error like I had originally suspected, and definitely a bug.

…that being said, if it actually functioned as intended, the trait would be absolute garbage.

That kinda pains my soul a lil bit :I

I think they just forgot a percentage sign and instead of a 1.5 percent (of total CD) reduction per second, it’s an additional 1.5 seconds each second.

Would make sense right? 30/(1+1.5) = 12s CD.

If that’s the true nature of the bug, that makes the double-stealth bug hilariously absurd.

30/(1+1.5+1.5) = 7.5s CD

That’s assuming, of course, that the poster who discovered the bug wasn’t just noticing the broken Pledge duration.

Anyone able to test that? You’ll need mesmer and thief stealth up at the same time.

If it’s 1.5s instead of 1.5%, that should be testable with the phantasmal Mage.

Base cooldown is 24 seconds. If it’s a wonky %-based cooldown, it should end up around 11s cooldown. If it’s using a flat 1.5s modifier, it will end up at 9.6s cd.

Can’t test it atm, can someone else do that?

Ok… heres the thing. Between mass invise, torch 4, decoy, veil & what ever i’m missing. You can not be perma stealth! You can stealth alote, sure. But continuously? No! due to the fact theres a stealth cooldown between them. & often clicking one invi to another cancels your stealth & keeps you revealed for a duration. Resulting in wasting your stealth. dont get me wrong, the stealth in this game is a very powerful tool in this game for all the classes that has it. but it’s not perma!

Vieux P.1238:

Ok… heres the thing. Between mass invise, torch 4, decoy, veil & what ever i’m missing. You can not be perma stealth! You can stealth alote, sure. But continuously? No! due to the fact theres a stealth cooldown between them. & often clicking one invi to another cancels your stealth & keeps you revealed for a duration. Resulting in wasting your stealth. dont get me wrong, the stealth in this game is a very powerful tool in this game for all the classes that has it. but it’s not perma!

This is a very flawed explanation.

Vieux P.1238:

due to the fact theres a stealth cooldown between them.

This doesn’t mean anything.
1. If the ability cooldowns are short enough, and the stealth duration long enough, the cooldowns don’t stop anything. The math is what matters.
2. There’s no special cooldown between stealth abilities preventing you from chaining them. For most mesmer stealth(all, now?), the stealth durations stack when you cast them in sequence.

Vieux P.1238:

often clicking one invi to another cancels your stealth

This is not true

Vieux P.1238:

keeps you revealed for a duration.

Revealed only happens when you break stealth. Casting other stealth abilities does not break stealth, unless you happen to hit an enemy with them. Which has no bearing on whether permastealth is possible, as it’s easy to find a situation where you won’t have any enemies around.

Lastly, you appear to have ignored the entire rest of this thread, which is both rude and stupid.
Rude because it shows a lack of respect for other posters and the OP to be unwilling to do the minimum work necessary to contribute.
Stupid because you may find everything you say has already been said, or refuted.

What you missed is a number of posters saying that individual permastealth doesn’t work because of the math, but that you can do it with multiple mesmers together.

Well, I was going to address that lovely paragraph of mental vomit, but I think alpha covered it appropriately already.

Yes, I agree with alpha. Please read previous responses as your point to be addressed has probably been discussed previously.

Okay, after doing some exhaustive math, the best I can come up with for 2 mesmers using the official numbers for things is 144 seconds of uninterrupted stealth.
It’s dang close though, as torch 4 was only .9s away from coming off cooldown.

And that’s making some assumptions about how veil works that may not be valid. Does Veil’s stealth stack with stealth from other Veils? Does Veil’s stealth stack with other mesmer stealth generally? If not, it’ll be a fair chunk less than 144s.

Regardless, I’m pretty confident at this point that 2 mesmers perma-stealthing can only be accomplished via a bug.
Which means The Pledge really probably is bugged.

Soo, 3/7 Mesmer weapon traits bugged, and one nerfed to near uselessness :P

If you believe some thieves, they’d have you believe thief can’t perma stealth but mesmer can all on their own while firing lightening bolts from their backsides and death lazers from their eyes.

Would be nice to see Anet look at the torch trait to see if it’s bugged.

Okay, I did some testing with The Pledge.

I activated The Prestige and then decoy, which should give exactly 12s of stealth.
I found that when I unstealthed, I had about 1s of cooldown left on The Prestige, consistently.
That’s 1.42 extra seconds of cooldown removed every second in stealth, or 4.722%.

That’s not a clean answer like 1.5 seconds would have been, nor is 4.72% any kind of recognizable percentage.
It’s bugged, but I can’t see anything that would explain in what way.

Regardless, that’s over 3x the effectiveness it’s supposed to have.

In fact, just activating The Prestige, during the 6 seconds of stealth, I gain 8 seconds off the cooldown of The Prestige, which is 26.67% cdr, which is easily outperforming flat 20%.
It’s very, very broken.

I’m gonna do some tests with and without PU next, and then test whether it affects that Phantasmal Mage or not.

Confirmed for Phantasmal Mage. Might even be higher?? Probably just estimation error on my part.

Confirmed without PU, but stealth durations being so low it actually takes some effort to get the same numbers. Which is to say, popping The Prestige and then Decoy gets me well above 20% cdr, but at the cost of a utility, and have to wait to pop The Prestige until after I pop iMage.

TBH, I think even without the bug, I think The Pledge is just a bad idea for a trait. Requiring players to stay in stealth to get the most out of their trait is giving a bad incentive, and frankly encourages players to wait to pop The Prestige until after they pop iMage, which is kind of backwards from an optimal rotation…in short, the whole concept of the trait encourages bad play, which is just bass-ackwards.

Fay.2357:

punahou.3986:

ah ok thanks

I thought people were complaining about 1 mesmer able to do this.

So at least for any aspect of pvp— you have to have a mesmer spec group.

People are ignorant and complain about lots of things that are untrue. Permastealth is a fun catchphrase that people like to throw about in complaints without any justification or intelligent thought. Don’t worry too much about it.

This. Pyro said it perfectly.

Okay, the good news: I couldn’t get perma stealth with the bugged torch.
The bad news: I got dang close. If Veil stacked with other stealth, I think I could have.
I’m still working on it, I keep making little mistakes, but I don’t think I’ll be able to hit it.

That means that at present, 2 mesmers will do it easily, which supports the experience of MailMail et al.

Somehow I got different results than Alpha :P, when using prestige alone with PU and torch trait my CD goes from 30s to 15s in full 6s stealth, meaning it is pretty much plus 1.5s instead of 1.5%. My line of thinking is something like this: The prestige originally have 30s CD, but 30s – (1.5s traited recharge + 1s actual time pulse) * 6 result in 15s.

Just tested it with another mesmer, and I messed up on my rotation order, but we were just about able to keep it up without veil anyway.

So, I think 2 mesmers with the torch bug can keep up perma invis without veil.

AlphatheWhite.9351:

Just tested it with another mesmer, and I messed up on my rotation order, but we were just about able to keep it up without veil anyway.

So, I think 2 mesmers with the torch bug can keep up perma invis without veil.

Just read what I said earlier about perma invis, I’ve already tested this quite a bit.

Ah yeah, for some reason I had thought your method relied on veil for 2 mes.