(edited by Zoe.8310)
Patch is significatly worse then I expected
To be fair, Boonshare Mesmers and Revenants were an absolute plague in WvW, and directly impacted other classes who couldn’t provide as much boons as them by not being allowed a spot on the meta.
The SoI changes are totally acceptable in my book, I’m finally hoping my mesmer will not be pigeonholed into Boonsharing
To be fair, Boonshare Mesmers and Revenants were an absolute plague in WvW, and directly impacted other classes who couldn’t provide as much boons as them by not being allowed a spot on the meta.
The SoI changes are totally acceptable in my book, I’m finally hoping my mesmer will not be pigeonholed into Boonsharing
Maybe, but because they couldn’t split that balance between WvW and PvE, the way they did this balance patch, it took away any reason at all for a raid to take a revenant and possibly even a chrono.
I get that WvW needed to have this addressed, but they stole from Peter to pay Paul in a bad way.
I don’t know how you could possibly have expected it to be better then this. We knew the skill was being nerfed and we know Anet has a habit of going over the top when it nerfs something.
Too answer your question from my thread, I expected a 5% increase to sword auto. SoI to carry on not giving the boons to the Mesmer, big nerfs to our quickness generation and to Bountiful Disillusionment and I expected SoI to end up like Well of Precog.
Really the 6% increase to sword autos first 2 attacks is worse then the 5% to all 3 I was expecting but the blurred frenzy buff and the QoL changes are a lot better then it could have been.
Ultimately though it would be nice if we got the actual changes and reworks we need for the class so that our useful builds in the various modes aren’t just based around gimmicks or one strong skill, our class mechanics isn’t useless in PvE, for shattering to be a viable dps option and just a generally easier time in the Living World story.
To be fair, Boonshare Mesmers and Revenants were an absolute plague in WvW, and directly impacted other classes who couldn’t provide as much boons as them by not being allowed a spot on the meta.
The SoI changes are totally acceptable in my book, I’m finally hoping my mesmer will not be pigeonholed into BoonsharingMaybe, but because they couldn’t split that balance between WvW and PvE, the way they did this balance patch, it took away any reason at all for a raid to take a revenant and possibly even a chrono.
I get that WvW needed to have this addressed, but they stole from Peter to pay Paul in a bad way.
Agreed. The whole point of them making tech to split game modes is to prevent this kind of issue.
it is not impossible to split mode, since retaliation in WvW functions like PvP instead of PvE.
I think trouble is with the mentality rather than mechanics
We got off easy on this patch let it go
We got off easy on this patch let it go
Nerf missed us, hit thief/rev/guard/necro instead. Instead, now double chrono is required.
Honestly I’m impressed. It’s sorta ironic that the nerf removing thief/rev/guard from the meta is actually a nerf to mesmer, not to those classes specifically.
We got off easy on this patch let it go
Nerf missed us, hit thief/rev/guard/necro instead. Instead, now double chrono is required.
Honestly I’m impressed. It’s sorta ironic that the nerf removing thief/rev/guard from the meta is actually a nerf to mesmer, not to those classes specifically.
It amazes me how people fail to see glaring problems with this game and can only tunnel vision onto 1 class…..
It amazes me how people fail to see glaring problems with this game and can only tunnel vision onto 1 class…..
Yeah but ANet never touches underlying problems anyhow, so there’s little point in trying to bring attention to them.
If they would, they would have gone back to the drawing board with their boon system in general, and the boons Protection, Resistance, Quickness and Stability in particular.
But they didn’t, they instead first nerf class skills. To be fair, not bad as a quick fix while you work on the actual issue. However, with their quarterly “balance patch” (I dread to call it that, with how few changes it actually had) being the quick fix, the only larger type of patch which could bring a reward would be a pre-expansion patch.
In other words, yes, game issues should always be fixed before class issues. But the dev team doesn’t do that, probably a result of manpower + outdated engine.
The strength of heart to face oneself has been made manifest. The persona Carighan has appeared.
Is W v W even still a thing?
Is W v W even still a thing?
Surprisingly enough, yes! It’s really fun, too.
Thing is though, the population is for all I can tell dwarfed by PvE to an absurd degree. Even if it isn’t as kittenPvP, it’s still tiny.
The question then is, why is PvE never taken into account during the design stages of balance changes? It’s not that difficult to build classes which can transfer their role to a similar one on changing game modes, other games did that plenty before. Hell GW1 did that!
The strength of heart to face oneself has been made manifest. The persona Carighan has appeared.
We got off easy on this patch let it go
Nerf missed us, hit thief/rev/guard/necro instead. Instead, now double chrono is required.
Honestly I’m impressed. It’s sorta ironic that the nerf removing thief/rev/guard from the meta is actually a nerf to mesmer, not to those classes specifically.
It amazes me how people fail to see glaring problems with this game and can only tunnel vision onto 1 class…..
Except a lot of people did see the glaring problems around what the potential nerf was and it turns out the nerf wasn’t too far from predictions.
I believe Brazil put up a very nice video about it on his channel and there were multiple threads on reddit about how this SoI change was only going to make mirror comp take prescedence. They also said how it would push out other classes from the raid meta because they won’t benefit as much from alacrity or what they bring isn’t worth it.
What were people expecting with the changes to Mesmer? Because it seems like you wanted Mesmer to maintain its current course which we all knew was being nerfed.
I post from a phone so please excuse any references to ducks or any other auto corrections.
What were people expecting with the changes to Mesmer? Because it seems like you wanted Mesmer to maintain its current course which we all knew was being nerfed.
Expecting? Something along these lines. Hoping for? A well thought out change that wasn’t a kneejerk reaction to a separate problem. SoI was fine as it was, boon generation needed to be toned down (and it wasn’t on any class from what I can tell), as well as boon duration (including from stats and from food, not just the herald passive), Illusionary Inspiration was indeed somewhat broken and should have been nerfed. However, ANet didn’t nerf Illusionary Inspiration, instead they chose to gut SoI without addressing the boon generation or the majority of the access to boon duration. Which means that overall this was an undeserved nerf for mesmers because its just a patchwork way around the issue without truly addressing it, and now we will have to wait another 12-14 weeks before even having the chance of getting real changes again.
What were people expecting with the changes to Mesmer? Because it seems like you wanted Mesmer to maintain its current course which we all knew was being nerfed.
I was expecting the people who’s job it is to balance the game to look at permanent quickness and say this shouldn’t be a thing.
I was then expecting them to look at how miserable mesmer DPS is in general and make a meaningful QoL change to the mesmer to bring it on par with other classes as well as making all classes comparable choices for the DPS role.
SoI and permanent quickness on 10 was all kinds of overpowered as well as the boonshare in WvW. However DPS was not so stupidly different between classes that you could validate excluding a class based on its relative strength. Now it is and that is why people are annoyed by the nerf as well as completely rewriting the rule book on quickness and boon sharing/stacking. Best part is it did jack all to WvW problems.
Other things that need looking at is how druid is the be all end all of healing as it offers so much damage boosts that you’d be crazy not to pick it while at the same time has deep seated issues too.
Oh and by expecting I don’t mean I was expecting them to do it in so much as I was expecting exactly what happened but it should have gone better. They need to really address core issues with ranger, mesmer, thief, elementalist and revenant in order to make the game more balanced.
(edited by apharma.3741)
What were people expecting with the changes to Mesmer? Because it seems like you wanted Mesmer to maintain its current course which we all knew was being nerfed.
Well… I would want them to commit to class roles. Because “Boon Controller” worked really great, IMO. It’s a fun role. Build the entire class around it and do something similar with other roles with the other classes and whatyaknow, after 5-6 years since release we could have had actual design which can be balanced.
But ofc, the “Everyone must be able to play however they want, so long as that is some form of DPS focus” won out again, and here we are, not moving towards much needed class roles. :s
The strength of heart to face oneself has been made manifest. The persona Carighan has appeared.
. SoI was fine as it was, boon generation needed to be toned down
For raids:
I would not say SOI was fine at all. There was no control over it so you could share boons that you were not able to generate in better amount than their origin. Best example was fury. Mesmer do not generate fury but can share huge amount of it and in the end one revenant buffing 5 mates ends up as mesmer covering fury for 10 people.
In fact the nerf to SOI made it so that it was unnecessary to look at every boon generation for every class.
Generally I think they wanted to not have a single mesmer able to cover 100% quickness and high uptime alacrity for 10 people. This will be possible for 5 but bringing a second mesmer will be a question of DPS gain Vs loss. Same goes with druid. The fact that you get more DPS by having 60 % of your group with a support build to buff the 40% remaining people to tremendous levels is not a good thing.Warrior support is still an outlier though.
That said the DPS buff on sword seems too weak to compensate. While I understand that devs do not want to change too much other class DPS after such a drastic change and let the new meta settle, this update tastes unfinished.
What were people expecting with the changes to Mesmer? Because it seems like you wanted Mesmer to maintain its current course which we all knew was being nerfed.
Well… I would want them to commit to class roles. Because “Boon Controller” worked really great, IMO. It’s a fun role. Build the entire class around it and do something similar with other roles with the other classes and whatyaknow, after 5-6 years since release we could have had actual design which can be balanced.
But ofc, the “Everyone must be able to play however they want, so long as that is some form of DPS focus” won out again, and here we are, not moving towards much needed class roles. :s
The problem is this games entire selling point and system is built (or supposed to be) on the idea that multiple classes can fill multiple roles. There’s nothing inherently bad about it, having might being provided by 3-4 classes easily wouldn’t be a bad thing unfortunately this isn’t the case. Even 2 eles would struggle to keep might up with fire overload without strength runes and some boon duration food. Guardians could give nice might stacking if empowering might was 10s base.
Healer roles both tempest and guardian are great choices for this as well as revenant but they’re not competitive because druid does that and spews out damage buffs to make up for its reduced damage while the others don’t really.
The problem is this games entire selling point and system is built (or supposed to be) on the idea that multiple classes can fill multiple roles. There’s nothing inherently bad about it, having might being provided by 3-4 classes easily wouldn’t be a bad thing unfortunately this isn’t the case.
Well ofc not, but think about it: Other MMOs did this first.
WoW’s classes have 1-3 (one has 4) roles, depending on spec. Yes some classes only have DPS specs, but others have tank, healing and DPS specs.
And that’s just WoW. A game which already shed the roles of CC, Debuffer and Buffer. Add those in, and apply them to speclines, and you could easily make a lot of things including secondary and offspecs.
Thing is, it needs commitment. Yes, someone is going to lose some way to spec which was garbage and niche-y as hell anyhow. And ofc they’ll flood the forum in tears. So yes, this should have been done long pre-release. Problem is, as someone who writes business software for a living, “because it’s too late now” is one of the stupidest arguments possible. You don’t gain anything but letting the wound continue to bleed.
I’d rather have them bite the sour apple now, 4 years in, and finally make a decent class setup and give the classes decent design. Even if it means I lose anywhere from 1-20 skills I enjoy using, nevermind traits or stat combinations or whatnot. As a whole, balance is impossible right now because the underlying class-system just doesn’t lend itself to being balanced.
The strength of heart to face oneself has been made manifest. The persona Carighan has appeared.
What were people expecting with the changes to Mesmer? Because it seems like you wanted Mesmer to maintain its current course which we all knew was being nerfed.
Expecting? Something along these lines. Hoping for? A well thought out change that wasn’t a kneejerk reaction to a separate problem. SoI was fine as it was, boon generation needed to be toned down (and it wasn’t on any class from what I can tell), as well as boon duration (including from stats and from food, not just the herald passive), Illusionary Inspiration was indeed somewhat broken and should have been nerfed. However, ANet didn’t nerf Illusionary Inspiration, instead they chose to gut SoI without addressing the boon generation or the majority of the access to boon duration. Which means that overall this was an undeserved nerf for mesmers because its just a patchwork way around the issue without truly addressing it, and now we will have to wait another 12-14 weeks before even having the chance of getting real changes again.
This sums my feelings up pretty well. There needed to be changed to boons, but this feels knee-jerk for sure.
No real QoL compensation for Mesmers. Sooooo many things have been suggested to just improve QoL for us: from the way Illusions are despawned; attention to our many off-hands; poorly optimized utilities like Mantras; etc. Tons of ppl have suggested many things, and many of them are very viable for the game.
They took away a cornerstone of our class mechanics, and didn’t fill the hole it left. Sure, something needed to change, but do a complete job at changing things, not this half-bum one.
What were people expecting with the changes to Mesmer? Because it seems like you wanted Mesmer to maintain its current course which we all knew was being nerfed.
Considering how significant the changes were to mesmers, I would have expected a significant increase to DPS. However, the DPS boost was pretty negligible, especially considering how far behind mesmer DPS is.
What were people expecting with the changes to Mesmer? Because it seems like you wanted Mesmer to maintain its current course which we all knew was being nerfed.
Considering how significant the changes were to mesmers, I would have expected a significant increase to DPS. However, the DPS boost was pretty negligible, especially considering how far behind mesmer DPS is.
Exactly. Plus it doesn’t address our DPS problems with any of our other weapons.
What were people expecting with the changes to Mesmer? Because it seems like you wanted Mesmer to maintain its current course which we all knew was being nerfed.
Considering how significant the changes were to mesmers, I would have expected a significant increase to DPS. However, the DPS boost was pretty negligible, especially considering how far behind mesmer DPS is.
Exactly. Plus it doesn’t address our DPS problems with any of our other weapons.
Yup.
What about Staff?
What about Scepter?
What about Pistol?
What about Torch?
etc. etc.
To be fair, Boonshare Mesmers and Revenants were an absolute plague in WvW, and directly impacted other classes who couldn’t provide as much boons as them by not being allowed a spot on the meta.
The SoI changes are totally acceptable in my book, I’m finally hoping my mesmer will not be pigeonholed into Boonsharing
Complete nonsense. Put durability runes on anything and the no target cap AoE resistance negates any need for this. You only would take 3 mesmers out of what 40 people? Revenants have been broken since HoT. Not a surprise they will remain so.
Have fun. Be Alive. K Thnx Bye.
. SoI was fine as it was, boon generation needed to be toned down
For raids:
I would not say SOI was fine at all. There was no control over it so you could share boons that you were not able to generate in better amount than their origin. Best example was fury. Mesmer do not generate fury but can share huge amount of it and in the end one revenant buffing 5 mates ends up as mesmer covering fury for 10 people.
In fact the nerf to SOI made it so that it was unnecessary to look at every boon generation for every class.
Generally I think they wanted to not have a single mesmer able to cover 100% quickness and high uptime alacrity for 10 people. This will be possible for 5 but bringing a second mesmer will be a question of DPS gain Vs loss. Same goes with druid. The fact that you get more DPS by having 60 % of your group with a support build to buff the 40% remaining people to tremendous levels is not a good thing.Warrior support is still an outlier though.
That said the DPS buff on sword seems too weak to compensate. While I understand that devs do not want to change too much other class DPS after such a drastic change and let the new meta settle, this update tastes unfinished.
These mesmer comments are bs . No mesmer in the entire game has ever produced 100% quickness uptime for 10 people during the last set of balance. That was mathematically impossible.
They didn’t even nerf druid buffing, so it is still better to take double druid. They did nerf Zerker druids healing so that the personal dps of druids is lower now in some cases but….. not Rly a big deal for most druids….
Have fun. Be Alive. K Thnx Bye.
There was no control over it so you could share boons that you were not able to generate in better amount than their origin. Best example was fury. Mesmer do not generate fury but can share huge amount of it and in the end one revenant buffing 5 mates ends up as mesmer covering fury for 10 people.
Not quite how it worked.
The amount of fury given by SoI would be exactly the same as that given by the rev. It worked because the rev in a subsquad with only the chrono in gives guaranteed fury to the chronomancer but also because the subgroup is not full and only had two players in, one being the rev itself they would send out fury to 4 other squad members in the other subsquads.
SoI would then copy that fury to a further 5 members, though one would always be the rev itself again.
So together as a joint effort could they cover most of the squad in fury the rev giving to the chrono + 4 and the chrono sending it on further to 4 people + the rev. SoI would not generate more or longer fury as it was SoI used to be unaffected by boon duration. Chrono would not have been able to give fury to the whole squad, it’s only because the rev already covers half the squad itself, chrono can cover the other half.
(edited by Nukkuu.6591)
The mainhand sword buffs are laughable, mainhand sword autoattack DPS is below thief sword (which isn’t even their meta PvE weapon) by more than 30%.
And this is what we got.
Laughable seems fitting, considering the laughable development team this game is stuck with.
6 months for these anemic changes, nothing has really gotten different despite Mike O Brien’s promises of change.
They didn’t buff sword cause anet don’t want it to be melee weapon as the axe will be our power weapon
They didn’t buff sword cause anet don’t want it to be melee weapon as the axe will be our power weapon
Until pvp whine about losing duels to mesmer comes to the rescue and axe ends up just as crap.
Everyone seems to be forgetting Anet’s thinking, which they have reiterated several times:
WvW = PvE
Anet won’t split balance between them because as far as they are concerned it’s the same thing.
To those saying “But this doesn’t address XYZ”, look how tiny this balance patch is. How few changes it actually makes.
There is no bigger changes or rebalancing coming ever. I don’t know why, I suspect they lack both talent and manpower. But fact is, you either enjoy the current (im)balance or you better look elsewhere, this late in the game they won’t do the massive reworks all classes need :S
The strength of heart to face oneself has been made manifest. The persona Carighan has appeared.
There was no control over it so you could share boons that you were not able to generate in better amount than their origin. Best example was fury. Mesmer do not generate fury but can share huge amount of it and in the end one revenant buffing 5 mates ends up as mesmer covering fury for 10 people.
Not quite how it worked.
The amount of fury given by SoI would be exactly the same as that given by the rev. It worked because the rev in a subsquad with only the chrono in gives guaranteed fury to the chronomancer but also because the subgroup is not full and only had two players in, one being the rev itself they would send out fury to 4 other squad members in the other subsquads.
SoI would then copy that fury to a further 5 members, though one would always be the rev itself again.
So together as a joint effort could they cover most of the squad in fury the rev giving to the chrono + 4 and the chrono sending it on further to 4 people + the rev. SoI would not generate more or longer fury as it was SoI used to be unaffected by boon duration. Chrono would not have been able to give fury to the whole squad, it’s only because the rev already covers half the squad itself, chrono can cover the other half.
Just read the context. My point is SOI allowed to generate some boons normally inaccessible to mesmers with the same duration than the main provider of such boon. That is why I was arguing the skill itself was not under control. You cannot balance the amount of boons you give to any class if there is a chance that at some point a mesmer arrives and copy everything with the same efficiency on people around.
Sure the nerf was too strong here because duration reduction on top of the number of stacks is double nerf but when the efficiency of a group has such a strong dependence on one single skill then it should be looked at for sure.
Same here i hardly tested the Share Boon new rotation and the gravity well make better job overhaul than time warp how really dosent make sense. Chrono or leadership rune on a full commander armor dosent make a big difference cause what you want is to have the longest 4 stack of quickness. Time warp just erase the quickness stack the put lower time stack to teamate. So TIME WARP IS NERFED in a way and now useless vs gravity well.
WAKE UP ANET and test you stuff before doing a patch.
MMORPG: Many Men Online Role Playing Girls.
Maybe they were aiming to stop this perma quickness nonsense? In any case, if the raid bosses can’t be done without perma quickness devs can just nerf the health of bosses. Nerf of SoI was done for the sake of all modes, not just raids.
Everyone seems to be forgetting Anet’s thinking, which they have reiterated several times:
WvW = PvEAnet won’t split balance between them because as far as they are concerned it’s the same thing.
Oh, please, get lost.
WvW is a pvp format, stop the bullkitten.
Virtually all pvp aimed changes are due to whiners losing duels to a class.
Everyone seems to be forgetting Anet’s thinking, which they have reiterated several times:
WvW = PvEAnet won’t split balance between them because as far as they are concerned it’s the same thing.
Did you read the patch notes? Blurred frenzy is a 100% buff in PvE and NOT WvW or PvP. Retaliation works in a similar manner.
To those saying “But this doesn’t address XYZ”, look how tiny this balance patch is. How few changes it actually makes.
There is no bigger changes or rebalancing coming ever. I don’t know why, I suspect they lack both talent and manpower. But fact is, you either enjoy the current (im)balance or you better look elsewhere, this late in the game they won’t do the massive reworks all classes need :S
Didn’t they do a complete rework of elementalist in GW1 right near the end of its life?
Yeah this balance patch was pretty tiny, makes me think most of the devs are busy on the expansion atm.
There is no bigger changes or rebalancing coming ever. I don’t know why, I suspect they lack both talent and manpower. But fact is, you either enjoy the current (im)balance or you better look elsewhere, this late in the game they won’t do the massive reworks all classes need :S
Indeed.
Right now, the game might as well only have three professions: elementalist, engineer, and maybe revenant. The remaining six don’t seem to follow the game’s role philosophy at all in PvE, with thieves, necromancers, and even guardians being relegated to almost pure DPS roles. In the case of druids and tempests, ANet will actually nerf you for trying to play correctly.
I have no faith whatsoever that they can get all nine professions that actually work. Either they need to do a radical overhaul, ripping out every single existing profession and remaking them from scratch to actually work and make sense with the dynamic roles — and this would probably mean heavily reworking all existing content and probably reworking basic combat mechanics too — or they need to abandon all pretence and just crowbar everything into a the proven designs, however sad, lame, clichéd, and boring that might be.
The first option is basically Guild Wars 3, and probably not the sort of undertaking they want to deal with right now, and the tale of SWG suggests that the second option would not end well.
(edited by evilunderling.9265)
To those saying “But this doesn’t address XYZ”, look how tiny this balance patch is. How few changes it actually makes.
There is no bigger changes or rebalancing coming ever. I don’t know why, I suspect they lack both talent and manpower. But fact is, you either enjoy the current (im)balance or you better look elsewhere, this late in the game they won’t do the massive reworks all classes need :S
This is the sad reality of it.
Either need to accept the current state with minor suggestions for change or go and find another game.
At least once the next elite specs come along there will be a different way to play.