Guild Wars 2

This is exactly what I meant all the time too – also in the case of the GS. There is no best phantasm for every situation and there is neither a best weapon for every situation, not even the best weapon set (S,S / S,P e.g.). And this is why I like the mesmer – he can make use of every weapon he’s carrying, sometimes even torch even if only for skipping.

→ rolleyes to serval mesmers here.

frifox.5283:

Almost all phantasm can be best dps if you use them in the correct situation. For example, iWarden ranks 5th on my DPS list yet there are many cases where it will hit harder than any phantasm out there: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvtsmUM5DIo

After doing this research on phantasms I came to a conclusion, which I probably knew already but didn’t really pay much attention to, that it’s pointless theorycrafting or ranking phantasm DPS. It’s almost like comparing apples to oranges if you try to.

That’s nothing to do with the warden in particular, that’s reflected projectiles. Of course the warden is going to deal more damage when it reflects projecitles, that’s why I always say “when you don’t need the utility from the focus, run s/s + s/p”.

Warden is still average from a pure DPS perspective.

This is so tedious, now everyone is going to carry on defending their I play badly how I want attitude.

Nretep.2564:

^
that’s why pyro said to remove your DPS ranking. It’ll make players like colesy say that pSword is better than pWarden.

No one ever denied zerker can do damage. What the abysmally hopeless posters in the thread that is no longer among us argued is that, the damage from izerker alone warrented using a GS in a dungeon.

Forget the auto attack being worse in the BEST scenario vs 1h sword
Forget the auto attack requiring you to do max damage at over 600 range away from the max boon radius (i.e a lot of damage)
Forget the boon strip on GS #3 is inferior to the built in auto on sword 1
Forget the cleave gained from GS #2 is inconsequential to swords always cleaving.
Forget their being not one single reason to ever have to use the #5.
Forget you’re losing the best invulnerability that also cleaves and also does fantastic damage in addition to a phantasm’s trait (duelist discipline) that doesn’t require an extra 10 wasted points in domination.
Forget the Offhand you’re dropping (swordsmen or duelist) contain an equal or higher phantasm with the added benefit of a torment block / superior cc on sw 4 and p 5.
Forget that there is not a single argument in pve that will ever make any actual sense to use a GS other than you are A: New to the game and unaware of mechanics. B: Lazy C: Just bad / slow at reacting Do what I want GS offhand torch only all day.

Follow the above and yeah, GS is fine.

Not posting in any more of the garbage that this thread is about to unfortunately explode into. Interesting results though.

Why again would you bring that up in this thread, but I will bite…

You should use a GS for everything in PvE but hardcore dungeon boss grinding. I know I will get flamed for that but let’s see.

Open word:
Killing stuff on the way, getting into melee range with S/x and S/x is too slow.
In DE’s you won’t tag kitten with S/x, S/x.
Leveling with S/x,S/x? Probably as fast as Staff,Scepter/Torch…

Dungeons:

Trash dies fast, cast iZerker, switch to S/x, more AoE, better dmg.

Unless you are mindlessly grinding dungeons, skipping trash and think that is fun (hey if that is what you like, more power to you), GS is your best option.

If you like to play in the open world, GS is your best option. If you are a solo player, GS is your best option. If you like loot in DE’s, GS is your best option. If you run in a zerg, GS is your best option. ^^

Yeah, the dungeons are the reason we all bought this game, so we can grind them.

Kaiyanwan.8521:

Why again would you bring that up in this thread, but I will bite…

You should use a GS for everything in PvE but hardcore dungeon boss grinding. I know I will get flamed for that but let’s see.

Open word:
Killing stuff on the way, getting into melee range with S/x and S/x is too slow.
In DE’s you won’t tag kitten with S/x, S/x.
Leveling with S/x,S/x? Probably as fast as Staff,Scepter/Torch…

Dungeons:

Trash dies fast, cast iZerker, switch to S/x, more AoE, better dmg.

Unless you are mindlessly grinding dungeons, skipping trash and think that is fun (hey if that is what you like, more power to you), GS is your best option.

If you like to play in the open world, GS is your best option. If you are a solo player, GS is your best option. If you like loot in DE’s, GS is your best option. If you run in a zerg, GS is your best option. ^^

Yeah, the dungeons are the reason we all bought this game, so we can grind them.

The thread was already derailed by one of you GS fanatics. Can’t resist responding to you though, I’m a sucker for a build supporter defined by lazy playstyle. This thread is about DPS so I’m assuming DPS should be taken into account here. Correct me if I’m wrong. You are right though, GS is fine for mobs that take ~2 seconds to die. Good thing the topic phantasms were tested on mobs dying in ~2 seconds.

Also torch bombing with portal exit inside a zerg will have a much greater impact than Your izerker / auto attack. ^^

Kaiyanwan.8521:

Dungeons:

Unless you are mindlessly grinding dungeons, skipping trash and think that is fun (hey if that is what you like, more power to you), GS is your best option.

Yeah, the dungeons are the reason we all bought this game, so we can grind them.

So you can take a jab at our playstyle but we can’t say anything about yours without QQQQQQQQQ?

Because we want to play the best we can, that means we are “mindlesly grinding dungeons”?

Also, I can’t even remember the last group I played with that fights avoidable trash, and that includes both organised groups, random pugs on gw2lfg and pugs from the in-game lfg. Skipping trash is also probably more skillful than killing it, you can completely screw up skips in Arah, whereas LoSing mobs and bursting you can probably do half asleep.

Ezzyz.6045:

Also torch bombing with portal exit inside a zerg will have a much greater impact than Your izerker / auto attack. ^^

I was talking about about PvE zergs, like temple events and stuff, you might realize they exist, if you would ever leave the dungeons… ^^

colesy.8490:

Kaiyanwan.8521:

Dungeons:

Unless you are mindlessly grinding dungeons, skipping trash and think that is fun (hey if that is what you like, more power to you), GS is your best option.

Yeah, the dungeons are the reason we all bought this game, so we can grind them.

So you can take a jab at our playstyle but we can’t say anything about yours without QQQQQQQQQ?

Because we want to play the best we can, that means we are “mindlesly grinding dungeons”?

Also, I can’t even remember the last group I played with that fights avoidable trash, and that includes both organised groups, random pugs on gw2lfg and pugs from the in-game lfg. Skipping trash is also probably more skillful than killing it, you can completely screw up skips in Arah, whereas LoSing mobs and bursting you can probably do half asleep.

Doing the same dungeon over and over is still a mindless grind. At least in open world PvE, the conditions are new most of the time…
And hey, I know who started all this hate. It wasn’t me.

But I’m not grinding because I play dungeons for fun, not to farm gold/mats.

And I don’t know about you, but if you PUG, your dungeon experience can be completely unpredictable unlike the 1111111111111111111 champion trains. Even if you roll with experienced players things can still happen. In the Orrian temples you all just run forward and press 1 every single time without fail and you faceroll the entire thing.

Again, you’re telling people who want to maximise their usefulness to their party that they’re just mindless grinders. What justifies you in saying that?

Seriously? Again? Why don’t you guys just drop it!? Everyone here will allways beleve more in himself than in others. It doesn’t matter what you say, they just read it and forget about it or don’t wanna realize they’re wrong … Stop comparing GS with S/S in this thread, pm each other if you want to or open a new thread. This is just for the Phantasms!

@Kaiyanwan
do not feed trolls.

Kaiyanwan.8521:

Doing the same dungeon over and over is still a mindless grind. At least in open world PvE, the conditions are new most of the time…
And hey, I know who started all this hate. It wasn’t me.

not really…

If you play with random party compositions but most of all with random people, you see lot of different tactics and things changes a lot.

Unfortunately some dungeons like coe are played in the same way by everyone, but fotms for example are a different game each time……

LordByron.8369:

Kaiyanwan.8521:

Doing the same dungeon over and over is still a mindless grind. At least in open world PvE, the conditions are new most of the time…
And hey, I know who started all this hate. It wasn’t me.

not really…

If you play with random party compositions but most of all with random people, you see lot of different tactics and things changes a lot.

Unfortunately some dungeons like coe are played in the same way by everyone, but fotms for example are a different game each time……

No, the hardcore dungeoneers only mantra is: stack melee, avoid all attacks as you know them from grinding the same boss forever, loot.
There is no other tactic. That’s it. Or you are bad.

My point is still valid, anywhere, besides grinding dungeon bosses, the GS+S/x is better than S/x and S/x.

Haters gonna hate though.

A DPS meter would definitely be a worthwhile addition in this discussion — if only ANet would add one.

Then we could post some screen shots using the different weapons in various situations… even have competitions to see who could repeat said situations with their weapons for better DPS.

I wish I had the power to lock my own threads. This is quickly turning into a pointless arguing that’s based on opinions. Either way, I believe the thread has served the purpose and the research is complete. Time to move on.

Sorry for sort of ruining your thread, but I got so tired of opening a topic and the first thing you see each time is GS bashing, no matter of context or validity.

Well, regardless of the merits of GS vs other options, thanks for collating the info, Frifox

Kaiyanwan.8521:

Sorry for sort of ruining your thread, but I got so tired of opening a topic and the first thing you see each time is GS bashing, no matter of context or validity.

Then maybe you should get the hint and stop suggesting to people they use a weak weapon.

If somebody suggested using torch in PvE they would be unanimously told not to (except by play how you want carebears), but because of mesmers using the trashsword (literally for trash and the fact that it sucks) for so long they want to defend it more.

Best aoe is sword focus.

colesy.8490:

Then maybe you should get the hint and stop suggesting to people they use a weak weapon.

If somebody suggested using torch in PvE they would be unanimously told not to (except by play how you want carebears), but because of mesmers using the trashsword (literally for trash and the fact that it sucks) for so long they want to defend it more.

You are just a troll cosley. In fact the GS+S/x is our best weapon combo in mostly any situation. You just can’t accept it. It’s ok, play the way you want, even if it is suboptimal. That’s what most people promote here anywhere.

spoj.9672:

Best aoe is sword focus.

What is a better AoE combo:

GS + S/F
or
S/F + S/F

Therefore our best AoE is a combination of GS and S/F. Not jst S/F.

colesy.8490:

If somebody suggested using torch in PvE they would be unanimously told not to .

I don t like to talk about players…..
So i ll just leave this here
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Prestige

Try it and start to think how you could use it in dungeons…

Maybe you’ll discover you actually should bring a torch and a GS in dungeons…..and start to switch weapon according to situations rather than opening short sighted posts judging players….

Its a situational weapon AS ITS sword OH.
While GS is a versatile weapon.

If you enter a dungeon and sit in SW/X-SW/SW you are just suboptimal like a player not retraiting and never changing utilities.

@spoj….

Test them better in game
iZerker is way better than iWarden for aoes….
If you stack in a corner izerker may not be the best, in any other situation is more effective for dps.

There are none so blind as those who will not see.

They have cornered themselves with their own statements, and now getting defensive is their only way left to argue.

Zerker is the only other AOE phantasm besides Warden but it doesn’t really matter because it hits for so little that it’s not really worth the trouble of summoning in the first place. Switching to GS for every trash pull just to summon a single Zerker to hit every stacked mob for half of the sustained damage of a single Swordsman is not worth the inability to spike the single targets in the pack that actually matter. Not only is a it a pain to swap your weapon all the time, the longer the fight goes on, the better having access to repeated Swordsman summons looks.

Try pugging the AC P2 ghosts (i.e. no LOS) with a Zerker + Focus combo and tell me how just how useful you found being able to summon a single zerker on one mob at the very beginning and then not being able to effectively renew your phantasms for the entire rest of the fight.

Also, in terms of one-to-one comparison, Warden is significantly better than Zerker for AOE. I don’t see how that’s how even a point of contention.

Look, a dungeneer taking a specific dungeon situation to describe things in his favour.

Tell me, phantasm wise, in an AoE situation what is better:

If not traited:

1. A warden every 20sec.
2. A warden and a zerker every 20sec.
3. A warden and any of the other phantasms every 20sec.

If your conclusion is any different than the order 2. 3. 1., you are doing it wrong.

Byron is simply right. Using the best weapon for every situation will allways be better than using XY all the time. You can’t argue against that. But what fits to each player is a different story. And to be honest, it is ovious that colesy prefers melee and sword style aswell many others too. But also there are playstyles that like the GS. And there ARE situations where every weapon is better than another.

i’ll try again to explain obvious things:

Izerker:

Long AoE
fast summon
fast attack
stays often out of attack range of mobs while on CD
its on the best RANGED+ AOE zerk weapon.
its on a weapon with CC and aoeS
follows target
Cripple

iWarden:
SLOW summon, when it appears your target is OFTEN dead so you just go on CD for nothing
Doesn t follow targets
lower DPS
smaller AoE
not good at surviving VS trash mobs

If in AC p2 you don t like izerker is because of many reasosn:
The first being the fact you want single target damage…and unequipping focus is the best choice.

Try again:
Dredge fotm in PUGS…..
CoE before 2nd Alpha (p2-3)
CoE after 2nd Alpha (p3)
CoF 1 adepts room
Cof 2 assassins room

etc etc…..

Once again sword is indeed the most fun weapon and with the best skins in game also (i have 4 expensive sword skins just to tel how much i like swords)…..if i could be effective wielding 2 swords all the time i would….

Unfortunately its way less good than it seems on paper……..
except for TA …
In TA i Always use SW/SW + SW/FOCUS OR ….. SW/torch Sw/focus

For AC2 you use focus not because of its AoE capabilities but for its reflective utility. You can literally have ghost eater kill himself with all the reflects we can can put on him. If you want AoE, get yourself a shatter build.

Hmm… what was OP topic again? :/

Warden and sword auto is best aoe. Im not gonna switch to a gs just for one phantasm when im always carrying sw/f & sw/sw. And summoning a beserker after the initial engagement is a terrible idea, getting locked into a crappy ranged weapon for 10 seconds is very very bad. Yes if you want to absolutely maximize aoe, start with a beserker and then go sword focus and stay sword focus. But the zerker is barely going to make a difference and seeing as trash dies quickly anyway and isnt that common you may aswell just keep your melee weapons equipped.

LordByron.8369:

Try again:
Dredge fotm in PUGS…..
CoE before 2nd Alpha (p2-3)
CoE after 2nd Alpha (p3)
CoF 1 adepts room
Cof 2 assassins room

First off I agree with you that different weapons are better for different situations but I’ll give some insight into how I do these fights because I’m still on the sword/xy side on those specific fights.

Dredge: My goal is to disable the gongers as fast as possible since they buff the dredge like crazy. Focus is a given with its reflects. The sword allows for consistent interrupt while not spreading random enemies = Sword/focus/sword. The swordsman is better at hunting 1 person down and I still have melee cleave going the whole time. Most people seem to underestimate the gongs. Protection/regen/might/swiftness for enemies is painful and single target spiking them is collectively better for your team than doing random aoe. Note on pugs: If I’m doing 30+ with pugs I tend to get a really quick feel of how good/bad they are. I leave before dredge ever happen because my luck is to always roll dredge right side on the last fractal. In 28 or below, I’m still using those weapons regardless of the group.

CoE: At the very start I go sword/focus/gs to pull enemies out of the hallway. The gs4 /3then immediatly to sword/focus kills them so fast that I don’t need to swap to gs again. The rest of the dungeon is sword/x/y/z. Before 2nd alpha is focus or pistol or sword for again, the aoe interrupts. The channeled aoe drain or the spin to win is painful and I keep my team safe while also not scattering them with gs. After 2nd alpha p3: every group I’ve been in skips the tough destroyers. We do kill the weak ones with mele cleave to stack up sigils if anyone was downed/easy loot.

Cof1: I’m assuming you mean the door breaking sequence? Focus/blurred frenzy and 1 auto attack takes them down. Sure you could toss in a gs phant before that but it doesn’t matter at that point. Rest of p1 is sw/sw/f. COf2: Melee cleave for 10 seconds vs gs1 for 9 and gs 4 for 1…. I would take the sword any day. More specifically, in good groups, phantasms don’t really matter as things die too fast. In bad groups, most phantasms don’t live too long. Thus in bad groups, I rely on blink/decoy and the “hunter” swordsman to make sure the assassins die even though the group is falling apart at the end. Focus being the other default phantasm cause why not.

Basically if mobs die super fast (10 seconds or less) and then I go out of combat, the gs is a viable option for me. In fights like balth and melandru in arah, I use ranged because melee is not worth it. PvP/wvw has obvious uses for ranged although sometimes I’m still going sword/focus/x. Open world pve kind of fits into the 10 second rule. Otherwise, I find the melee cleave all the time to be better than the gs4. I think all of the sword/x/y proponents know to swap weapons, we’re just saying you rarely need to swap anything besides your offhands.

Disclaimer: I am working on duel Bolts and focus is usually too good to let go. This may cloud my judgement Or maybe I loved swords so much to begin with because they are awesome.

spoj.9672:

Yes if you want to absolutely maximize aoe, start with a beserker and then go sword focus and stay sword focus.

Was that really so hard? So most of the time you just choose to be less effective because you are too lazy to switch your weapons.

Shame on you! ^^

Trying to “maximize AOE” is pointless if the additional gain from having the Zerker is so marginal that it doesn’t make up for the loss in single-target damage. Duck has already pointed this out but you don’t need that marginal extra damage from Zerker in any of those fights.

Dredge Fractal: Focus gongs and bombers.
COF P1: Ignore trash, focus acolytes.
COF P2: Ignore trash, focus assassins.
COE P2: Ignore trash, run to boss.
COE P3: Ignore trash, run to boss.

So yeah, what you want in those situations is single-target damage, not AOE. If you do need AOE, Warden alone is usually good enough for everything you need. There’s rarely, if ever, anywhere you need the second Zerker’s added low damage over the Swordsman’s added high damage.

You are just a troll cosley. In fact the GS+S/x is our best weapon combo in mostly any situation. You just can’t accept it.

You’re calling me a troll despite it being explained repeatedly that GS+S/x isn’t the best weapon combo in most situations?

Who is the troll now? The one who is choosing to ignore the truth or the one trying to teach the truth?

Why is this trash mob argument being constantly brought up anyway? Things die in like 3 seconds so the only reason there is to tag is so that you’re eligible for loot, and you’re using the fact that GS tags better as an excuse for it being a good weapon. If that’s the case, then the best weapon sets are GS/Staff because of AOEs. But they do less damage, and s+f cleaves along with not being useless junk after casting the phantasm, so s+f/s+x is better as long as you have no problem tagging.

—

don t like to talk about players…..
So i ll just leave this here
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Prestige

Try it and start to think how you could use it in dungeons…

I have run every single dungeon and every single fractal and not once thought torch would be good.

While GS is a versatile weapon.

“cast phantasm then swap” is not versatility. The weapon skills are junk.

The summation of GS defenders’ arguments is that it lets you tag trash better. That’s hardly a reason to run a weapon in real content that isn’t 1-1-1-1-1-1 open world.

I am just working with the Kuebler-Ross model also known as the five stages of grief.

By showing dungeoneers that the GS is the optimal weapon in different situations (AoE, even if they have tons of excuses which is totally normal) we can pass denial.

We are now in the stage of anger, which we can see very well with cosley (even though the denial is strong with this one).

The anger will hold on longer, but when the dungeoneers will see, that there is more than just the caves they spend their time in, bargaining might start.

The last two steps I will think about if we ever get that far… ^^

No one really cares about minmax outside of dungeons anyway. In big zerg events like Tequatl, 99% of players are in crap/farm gear so even a doubling of the damage output on that last 1% doesn’t make any real difference. And WvW is just a zergfest where the side with the most people/closer spawn point wins. Dungeons are the only content where someone else’s gear can actively screw you insofar as bosses take too long to drop and you eventually die from all the small hits flying around, or miss a dodge because you’ve been dodging the same tells for the last twenty minutes and falling asleep.

Offhand I can’t think of any situations where that extra half a phantasm’s worth of damage from the zerker would actually make a difference. There are very few situations where you’re encountering a group of silver mobs (non-elite mobs die instantly anyway) with a composition that justifies giving up the ability to focus certain high-threat mobs for a bit of added damage on the rest.

“Just start with GS then switch to sword” sounds like a nice mantra until you consider that doing so means giving up an alternate offhand that could potentially be more useful than being able to summon one weak phantasm at the start of the fight. Honestly, I don’t know why you’re so hung up on Zerker just because it hits AOE, when auto-attack melee cleave is the big name of the game in terms of AOE DPS anyway.

Kaiyanwan.8521:

I am just working with the Kuebler-Ross model also known as the five stages of grief.

By showing dungeoneers that the GS is the optimal weapon in different situations (AoE, even if they have tons of excuses which is totally normal) we can pass denial.

We are now in the stage of anger, which we can see very well with cosley (even though the denial is strong with this one).

The anger will hold on longer, but when the dungeoneers will see, that there is more than just the caves they spend their time in, bargaining might start.

The last two steps I will think about if we ever get that far… ^^

This whole Mesmer gs vs non gs divide started with Guang stating that some class/build combos have bad reputations in dungeons and it’s time for them to learn to be better. You just labeled us “dungeoneers.” So why is your next step to say our advice outside of dungeons isn’t valid and therefore we are wrong. There is no bargaining in this. Our advice for sword/x/y is for dungeons. That is all. Your extra Keubler-Ross stuff is you just trying to grasp at something to be right about that has nothing to do with this discussion.

How about you look at my recent analysis and explain why you think I’m wrong and Lord is right. If you cant, don’t repeat the logical fallacies that you just tried to pull off.

PS: Sorry Frifox but you must have realized that comparing numbers of 1 skill of a weapon would inherently lead to comparison of weapons. Especially with the prior thread being deleted. =/

The problem we encouter here, and why the Kuebler-Ross model is appropriate is, that the first MMO for a player is like the first love, a drastic experience, which they – unconsciously – want to have back in every new one. Therefore, many players try to make every new MMO to fit in their personal first experience and try to alter the game so it may become what they have lost.

Most of the conflict here is a result of people coming from a game that has/had dungeons as the center part and progression as motivation. They see dungeons as the pinnacle of gamplay and everything else is just for the unskilled.

This will cause frustration as this game is not working this way. Dungeons are not the center of the game. In fact, there has been no new classical dungeon (besides easy event dungeons) for over a year (Fractals leave space to argue though). Dungeons are a left over, and probably the least innovative part in game (and often just badly designed), that claimed to be new and innovative. So the developers spend very little time on this matter.

So “dungeoneers” or whatever you want to call people with this attitude will build their consciousness of elitism on other factors than progression as there is none. The only other “imaginary progression” is to beat the same content faster, which seperates them from others just beating the content.

And here we are, with an elitism that is not working and as a result we have this discussions as they try to defend their superiority. Also see “Denial”.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Trying to “maximize AOE” is pointless if the additional gain from having the Zerker is so marginal that it doesn’t make up for the loss in single-target damage. Duck has already pointed this out but you don’t need that marginal extra damage from Zerker in any of those fights.

Dredge Fractal: Focus gongs and bombers.
COF P1: Ignore trash, focus acolytes.
COF P2: Ignore trash, focus assassins.
COE P2: Ignore trash, run to boss.
COE P3: Ignore trash, run to boss.

So yeah, what you want in those situations is single-target damage, not AOE. If you do need AOE, Warden alone is usually good enough for everything you need. There’s rarely, if ever, anywhere you need the second Zerker’s added low damage over the Swordsman’s added high damage.

This sounds as:

Take my GS and melee lupicus…..

If we are talking of being effective you are wrong.
If we are talking of succeeding somehow i can use scepter/torch on PvT gear in coe and still manage to succeed……..

This is exactly the weak point of all this thread…
People that judge players for doing 0,001% less of party dps, and then when you talk about best efficience…" oh well i can do it anyway…."

P.S:.@Kaiyanwan.8521 its not like that.
Most of them (/us) are only gold farmers……but some think they are awesome because they can play a speedclear.

Speedclears were born to farm gold fast, not to show skill
Speedclears are infact way easier than normal runs…..you just need to know what to do…that is all.

Notice how i am forced too by ascended grinding to take part in speedclears….
But if you do enough they start to get boring….yet you need gold -.- so saving 5 minutes per run equals about 20% more incomes.

Speed clears are a different topic, people joining a group labeled as that are expected and expect efficiency.
The problem is the general elitist behaviour, like “if you use a GS you are bad”.
General statements like this are obviously a result of a group trying to set themselves above others by excluding variety, labeling them as the best. But instead of just staying in their own ivory tower, they feel the need to tell everyone how much better they are (false or true doesn’t even matter).
Elitism at it’s finest. Unfortunately ridiculously misplaced in a game like GW2.

It has a weak autoattack, three weak skills and a phantasm which is weaker than off-hand sword, pistol and lacks the reflection of the warden.

It has nothing going for it besides letting you tag loot better, therefore it’s bad. How hard is that to comprehend? Are you now going to argue staff is good in PvE because of chaos storm? Of course you aren’t, you’re going to keep saying GS is awesome despite there being practically no reason for you to think that after being told countless times why it’s not.

This is nothing to do with variety or exclusion, it’s to do with players who make an effort to actually be decent at the game not wanting to use inferior weapons, and trying to stop other people from doing so as well, because not only will it improve the skill level of the average player if their weak concept of meta is understood to be sword/X + sword/Y (rather than GS+s/f, I don’t think people even understand why this weapon loadout is chosen of the time) but the overall benefit is the fact that they will give their parties smoother dungeon runs by dealing more damage.

PUGs currently understand that berserker is the best gear, the next step is to teach them the appropriate weapon loadouts. That means no bearbow rangers, and no junksword mesmers.

colesy.8490:

It has a weak autoattack, three weak skills and a phantasm which is weaker than off-hand sword, pistol and lacks the reflection of the warden.

It has nothing going for it besides letting you tag loot better, therefore it’s bad. How hard is that to comprehend? Are you now going to argue staff is good in PvE because of chaos storm? Of course you aren’t, you’re going to keep saying GS is awesome despite there being practically no reason for you to think that after being told countless times why it’s not.

This is nothing to do with variety or exclusion, it’s to do with players who make an effort to actually be decent at the game not wanting to use inferior weapons, and trying to stop other people from doing so as well, because not only will it improve the skill level of the average player if their weak concept of meta is understood to be sword/X + sword/Y (rather than GS+s/f, I don’t think people even understand why this weapon loadout is chosen of the time) but the overall benefit is the fact that they will give their parties smoother dungeon runs by dealing more damage.

PUGs currently understand that berserker is the best gear, the next step is to teach them the appropriate weapon loadouts. That means no bearbow rangers, and no junksword mesmers.

Do you seriously believe “those people” will deal more dps with a MH sword? All objective, proven facts aside, what do you think will happen when 2-3 people in a PUG try to melee while the rest are still “bad”? -That’s right, THEY DIE! That’s 0 dps. A lot less than the “inferior” GS would put out.
In your words, “these people refuse to learn and improve” (not exact quote). What do you think will happen if you “shift the meta” towards Sw/x+y? These people still won’t learn, but they’ll spend much more time on the floor.

Anyone who wants to learn has seen your message already. The others are better off clutching to the “noobstick” because at least they’ll be able to reflect/TW when you tell them to. Maybe even push back some mobs when that melee ele takes an unlucky crit.

No, they’ll learn because they’ll be forced to (or they’ll faceplant again).

And to be honest, if they’re going to just be a reflect/TW bot I’d rather take a guardian because at least they’ll be in melee and probably contributing more DPS than the mesmer as a result of it.

colesy.8490:

No, they’ll learn because they’ll be forced to (or they’ll faceplant again).

And to be honest, if they’re going to just be a reflect/TW bot I’d rather take a guardian because at least they’ll be in melee and probably contributing more DPS than the mesmer as a result of it.

Seriously? That is your best response? Anyone who’s used the GS before will just switch back, because then they’ll be alive and well. You can’t “force” anyone to do anything, and if you simply kick those using the GS you’re actually having a worse impact on the community than said people.
Switching to full melee and learning to stay alive take time, much more than you’ll be willing to spend on a single dungeon run, and kicking when they fail to “show improvements” within one run will simply leave you looking like an elitist jerk. They’ll discard anything you told them as trash talk and keep doing their own thing. It’s not about what you tell them, but how you phrase it.

Photoloss.4817:

colesy.8490:

No, they’ll learn because they’ll be forced to (or they’ll faceplant again).

And to be honest, if they’re going to just be a reflect/TW bot I’d rather take a guardian because at least they’ll be in melee and probably contributing more DPS than the mesmer as a result of it.

Seriously? That is your best response? Anyone who’s used the GS before will just switch back, because then they’ll be alive and well. You can’t “force” anyone to do anything, and if you simply kick those using the GS you’re actually having a worse impact on the community than said people.
Switching to full melee and learning to stay alive take time, much more than you’ll be willing to spend on a single dungeon run, and kicking when they fail to “show improvements” within one run will simply leave you looking like an elitist jerk. They’ll discard anything you told them as trash talk and keep doing their own thing. It’s not about what you tell them, but how you phrase it.

You’re wasting your time and making the same mistake that he is: believing people will “just learn.” Best to just leave thing as is or report to mods – people will do and say what they wanna do and say.

Kaiyanwan.8521:

The problem is the general elitist behaviour, like “if you use a GS you are bad”.
General statements like this are obviously a result of a group trying to set themselves above others by excluding variety, labeling them as the best. But instead of just staying in their own ivory tower, they feel the need to tell everyone how much better they are (false or true doesn’t even matter).
Elitism at it’s finest. Unfortunately ridiculously misplaced in a game like GW2.

So now you are resorting to personal attacks rather than countering any points I’ve made. Don’t confuse my arguments with cosley’s attitude.

At what point do any of my posts come across as elitist? I’ve shown math for why stacking with your group can increase the entire parties damage by 50-100%. Since the last thread was deleted, I’ve decided I’ll show the steady weapon numbers for the auto attack: (65+66+119)/2.5 second vs (37×3)/1.5 seconds. The sword does about 35% more base damage. When you compound these numbers, it turns into the sword doing upwards of 2.7 times as much damage as the GS at 1200 range. Then factor in the melee cleave for x3 damage and the GS aoe phantasm doesn’t outweigh the rest of the GS.

When I responded to Lord Byron, I explained why I thought the sw/x+y was better in both damage and utility in those situations he listed. I also listed when I use the GS. Is it really that elitist to inform other people of the potential of these weapons? Is this any more elitist than your blanket statement of sword/focus+GS is the best aoe combo?

Photoloss.4817:

colesy.8490:

It has a weak autoattack, three weak skills and a phantasm which is weaker than off-hand sword, pistol and lacks the reflection of the warden.

It has nothing going for it besides letting you tag loot better, therefore it’s bad. How hard is that to comprehend? Are you now going to argue staff is good in PvE because of chaos storm? Of course you aren’t, you’re going to keep saying GS is awesome despite there being practically no reason for you to think that after being told countless times why it’s not.

This is nothing to do with variety or exclusion, it’s to do with players who make an effort to actually be decent at the game not wanting to use inferior weapons, and trying to stop other people from doing so as well, because not only will it improve the skill level of the average player if their weak concept of meta is understood to be sword/X + sword/Y (rather than GS+s/f, I don’t think people even understand why this weapon loadout is chosen of the time) but the overall benefit is the fact that they will give their parties smoother dungeon runs by dealing more damage.

PUGs currently understand that berserker is the best gear, the next step is to teach them the appropriate weapon loadouts. That means no bearbow rangers, and no junksword mesmers.

Do you seriously believe “those people” will deal more dps with a MH sword? All objective, proven facts aside, what do you think will happen when 2-3 people in a PUG try to melee while the rest are still “bad”? -That’s right, THEY DIE! That’s 0 dps. A lot less than the “inferior” GS would put out.
In your words, “these people refuse to learn and improve” (not exact quote). What do you think will happen if you “shift the meta” towards Sw/x+y? These people still won’t learn, but they’ll spend much more time on the floor.

Anyone who wants to learn has seen your message already. The others are better off clutching to the “noobstick” because at least they’ll be able to reflect/TW when you tell them to. Maybe even push back some mobs when that melee ele takes an unlucky crit.

So you admit it’s a noobstick.

Either way, though, a mesmer who dies while DPSing is still more DPS than one who lives while not. It’s the exact same reason why people don’t take AH guardians anymore, a dead guy who contributes for two seconds is still worth more than a living guy who doesn’t contribute for twenty.

Another fallacy is thinking every fight has to be a spamfest of dps without anything more than sustained.

Then you start to understand that
your aoes are only stacked,
you don t need to use any skill that is not dps.
Guardian will keep you alive.

In those party your skill is never tested.

infact they can t see the necessity of having a reliable cripple
a ranged opening burst
more CC
More AoEs
and stuff like that….

Since they never have to use game mechanics, they just look at what deals more damage without even considering secondary effects like your Whole party Dps etc.

If you pug in speedruns you often see most (not all) elitist are not capable to adapt to anything different from the usual run.
That is not skill.

P.S. Also someone should learn to not read a random word on a forum and get to conclusions…rather than read the Whole topic
“noobstick” hasn t anything to do with PvE ……

Just one question: If GS an Sword would both be single target – how would the DpS between them be? Still S >>>>>>>>>>>> GS? Or just S > GS :o

colesy?

Sword is higher single target dps aswell. The only advantage GS has is a decent aoe phantasm. But iwarden is good enough for that and tends to be more effective at hitting multiple targets due to its duration.

Sword would still be leagues better because you would be in range of your party’s boons which means both you and your phantasms benefit from the might stacking and fury, so Sw >>>>>>>>>>>>>> GS, yes.

I’d actually love it if the greatsword phantasm broke again, then it would pretty much be an unconditionally bad weapon again.

Its funny because the last time i actually used GS was when it was broken.