Phantasm attacks discussion
Sword nice it just adds more dps but the might ohhh anet play your game kittenmit.
Focus amazing aoe in line immob on top of the phantasm just great amazing thematically, animation wise and utility wise.
Gs ehh they could buff the boomerang’s dmg not by alot but instead of 200 to deal like 1k i crits considering it reveals you if you do it from stealth so the whole stealth preparation for bombing got nerfed. Other than that do like it and the animations is cool.
Uw ones ehh i havet done enough frac 75 honestly so i cant tell you for sure.
Staff one feels like a good buff for opening in pvp on points. Even tho i dont play condi in pvp can apreciate it.
About the might(sword o/h) what i would do might require and entire elite spec and i believe this is what they have in mind with this change. They prob wonna have mirage or w/e the name of the next elite spec is to allow you to tranfer boons o your phatasms and have them be affected by boons. That could go a long way making a unique dps spec that focushes on empowering phantasms and personal game play.
But iirc you didnt like the distribution of the mesmer’s dmg so idk.
EDIT: about sword and focus i feel like these 2 have a longer cast time but idk might be alone on this one.
Shield is obviously great.
Focus is good too, good effect, fits in with the weapon and synergy with the Phantasm.
Torch is alright, I think it should provide aoe fury as well and maybe a third burn stack.
What I like about the GS one is that it always goes the full 1200 range, so you don’t have to cast the phantasm at a thing in the back of a group if you want to hit them all with it, of course you have to be careful not to hit anything you don’t want to damage. If it actually did damage that would be nice but it doesn’t so the skill is kitten.
As is the pistol attack.
Sword provides might to the phantasm which is funny.
That could go a long way making a unique dps spec that focushes on empowering phantasms and personal game play.
No it wouldn’t and I am fed up of explaining why.
(edited by Levetty.1279)
oh im sorry im not going up and down taking notes of your lectures about why this would be good
Anybody who has played the class for any amount of time would know why its the case, that is why I am fed up of explaining it.
Ok then lets assume that im havent played it for any while. The oly dowside i see in a spec like that is that in pvp destroying your phantasms severly criples your dmg, same with pve but in pve phantasms die harder. OOO great mesmer vet with 5k hours on it could you explain me a peasant what would be wrong with a spec like that?
Ok then lets assume that im havent played it for any while. The oly dowside i see in a spec like that is that in pvp destroying your phantasms severly criples your dmg, same with pve but in pve phantasms die harder. OOO great mesmer vet with 5k hours on it could you explain me a peasant what would be wrong with a spec like that?
Because phantasms are a clunky and annoying mechanic that is heavily limited in usability and flexibility. Loading even more of our damage and utility into boosting or using phantasms just pidgeonholes mesmers into bashing our faces against that awful mechanic if we want to be marginally effective at doing anything.
Eh idk uless im extremely lucky i havent been kittened over by my phantasms in pve the ecouters are cotrolable by the players so phatasms work in pvp ehh you can los them that that might be a problem i suppose. I’d also like some examples about the clunkyness and the limited usability ad flexibility if you dont mind.
(edited by zealex.9410)
Eh idk uless im extremely lucky i havent been kittened over by my phantasms in pve
If you’re fighting anything more than a single target, phantasms are garbage. No way to “control the encounter” around that.
in pvp ehh you can los them that that might be a problem i suppose.
Yeah, you can LoS them. Or you can just ignore them and squish them with all the aoe that every PvP build farts out nowadays.
I’d also like some examples about the clunkyness and the limited usability ad flexibility if you dont mind.
They’re limited to a single target, so any situation with multiple targets makes them awful. They have a long ramp-up time, so your dps is will always be about 20 seconds delayed compared to everybody else. They’re extremely susceptible to CC or terrain. This doesn’t happen too much in raids, but if you’re trying to use them anywhere that isn’t a simple flat arena they can get stuck on pebbles and fail to function. In non-raid encounters, they still die to any mob that happens to target them and sneeze. This happens in raids too, but aggro is usually controlled better there. Did I mention that literally any situation where you have to dps more than 1 target makes them garbage?
Sword 5 applying might to the phantasms as well is just strange, I don’t have anything else to say on that. But I think the attack itself is nice. Its not too strong, weaker than the first auto for Sword, but giving us 8 might stacks for landing that hit is pretty nice in my opinion.
GS – Well it deals less than 1/3 of the damage of the GS auto at minimum range. So at best its less than 1/3 as useful as an auto attack, yet with the same cast time. This one definitely needs to be dealing significantly more damage. At least triple what it is now, to be on par with the weakest auto the GS can put out.
Staff – Again, the winds of chaos from this attack deals less damage than the actual winds of chaos skill for some reason. Other than that its decent-ish. I’d rather it be changed to be a copy of the phantasms attack though. Be a single target attack dealing significantly higher power damage that can then scale even higher with unique conditions on the enemy.
Focus – Doesn’t deal much damage, but I like the immobilize it has. Overall pretty nice skill in my opinion
Torch – Didn’t like it at first, but its growing on me. I still don’t like how the attack is a melee range attack even though we can cast the phantasm from 1,200 units away…… But the burning stacks are fun, and you can set up some nice plays with it with the prestige for a nice burn stack burst. Still though, I would like tosee it changed so that the attack isn’t wasted if you aren’t in melee range, otherwise why have the phantasm be able to be cast from so far away? Also I agree Levetty, it would be nice if it also applied some fury to us when we cast it, but its already fairly strong if used correctly.
Pistol – This one is worthless. Does practically no damage at all. Using a white lvl 80 pistol, the initial attack did all of 62 damage, while the phantasm did 269 damage per hit, for a total of 2,152 damage. This initial attack did less than 3% the damage that the phantasm does in its attack. How in the hell is this adding any pressure whatsoever? This attack should just be removed and replaced with your character performing a modified unload attack when it casts the phantasm. Have it only hit 4 times instead of 8, but the damage per hit could be roughly the same. And then remove the cripple. Just make it a flat power damage based attack. For the CD of the skill, this would be a suitably strong initial attack, strong enough to add a lot more pressure from the pistol itself without being too strong.
Overall I think that GS and Pistol attacks are in desperate need of reworks. I would like to see staff attack get reworked, but if it isn’t its still suitable in my opinion.
Eh idk uless im extremely lucky i havent been kittened over by my phantasms in pve
If you’re fighting anything more than a single target, phantasms are garbage. No way to “control the encounter” around that.
in pvp ehh you can los them that that might be a problem i suppose.
Yeah, you can LoS them. Or you can just ignore them and squish them with all the aoe that every PvP build farts out nowadays.
I’d also like some examples about the clunkyness and the limited usability ad flexibility if you dont mind.
They’re limited to a single target, so any situation with multiple targets makes them awful. They have a long ramp-up time, so your dps is will always be about 20 seconds delayed compared to everybody else. They’re extremely susceptible to CC or terrain. This doesn’t happen too much in raids, but if you’re trying to use them anywhere that isn’t a simple flat arena they can get stuck on pebbles and fail to function. In non-raid encounters, they still die to any mob that happens to target them and sneeze. This happens in raids too, but aggro is usually controlled better there. Did I mention that literally any situation where you have to dps more than 1 target makes them garbage?
Focus ad gs do aoe dmg, In pvp the msot phantasms you use are for the initial burst they provide (sword off hand and gs 4). You also get aoe by shattering but well mesmers atm are build for aoe more suingle dmg support and yess the provide awesome comtrol throuch cc interupts and dmg immunity.
20 sec ramp up time is over reacting if you consider than sword o/h gs and pistol apre pretty fast. The only “slow” phantasm is focus and focus is a utility weapon.
I regularly run fractals for some ic an say the terain can kitten you yes but thats amatter of how well grouped and where did you group them i aslo ru 100cm where mist things will oe shot you or down you to 30% and phantasms do fine there so…
I like torch. It would be amazing if it applied the burns at range or did three stacks, but I think it would actually be overpowered. As it is, it creates an incentive to get in close. You can do some fun things like prestige, start casting iMage, and then blink right next to your target.
I also like disenchanter. Getting initial boon strip and condi removal in an aoe is really nice, and it fits the phantasm.
Sword 5 applying might to the phantasms as well is just strange, I don’t have anything else to say on that. But I think the attack itself is nice. Its not too strong, weaker than the first auto for Sword, but giving us 8 might stacks for landing that hit is pretty nice in my opinion.
GS – Well it deals less than 1/3 of the damage of the GS auto at minimum range. So at best its less than 1/3 as useful as an auto attack, yet with the same cast time. This one definitely needs to be dealing significantly more damage. At least triple what it is now, to be on par with the weakest auto the GS can put out.
Staff – Again, the winds of chaos from this attack deals less damage than the actual winds of chaos skill for some reason. Other than that its decent-ish. I’d rather it be changed to be a copy of the phantasms attack though. Be a single target attack dealing significantly higher power damage that can then scale even higher with unique conditions on the enemy.
Focus – Doesn’t deal much damage, but I like the immobilize it has. Overall pretty nice skill in my opinion
Torch – Didn’t like it at first, but its growing on me. I still don’t like how the attack is a melee range attack even though we can cast the phantasm from 1,200 units away…… But the burning stacks are fun, and you can set up some nice plays with it with the prestige for a nice burn stack burst. Still though, I would like tosee it changed so that the attack isn’t wasted if you aren’t in melee range, otherwise why have the phantasm be able to be cast from so far away? Also I agree Levetty, it would be nice if it also applied some fury to us when we cast it, but its already fairly strong if used correctly.
Pistol – This one is worthless. Does practically no damage at all. Using a white lvl 80 pistol, the initial attack did all of 62 damage, while the phantasm did 269 damage per hit, for a total of 2,152 damage. This initial attack did less than 3% the damage that the phantasm does in its attack. How in the hell is this adding any pressure whatsoever? This attack should just be removed and replaced with your character performing a modified unload attack when it casts the phantasm. Have it only hit 4 times instead of 8, but the damage per hit could be roughly the same. And then remove the cripple. Just make it a flat power damage based attack. For the CD of the skill, this would be a suitably strong initial attack, strong enough to add a lot more pressure from the pistol itself without being too strong.
Overall I think that GS and Pistol attacks are in desperate need of reworks. I would like to see staff attack get reworked, but if it isn’t its still suitable in my opinion.
I can agree in most but think that these are the precast for the phantasm that are there to deal that dmg so their numbers cant be crazy. In the end stuff like sword off hand and focus staff are just more dmg for free no? I wouldnt mind an p in the dmg gs4 precast does.
I don’t have that much of a problem with the GS initial attack. While admittedly It deals no significant damage, it puts 3 stack vulnerability with each hit, so in combination with mirror blade it puts 15 stacks on the enemy. That’s a 6% damage increase to follow-up skills just through the initial.
I dislike the attack on conjure. I’m playing a PU vanilla build in PvP and it spoils stealth.
Mesmerising Girl
I like torch. It would be amazing if it applied the burns at range or did three stacks, but I think it would actually be overpowered. As it is, it creates an incentive to get in close. You can do some fun things like prestige, start casting iMage, and then blink right next to your target.
I also like disenchanter. Getting initial boon strip and condi removal in an aoe is really nice, and it fits the phantasm.
I did forget about disenchanter and defender. Overall I think those are 2 of the best ones, right behind shield. Very well done.
@Takashiro – 15 stacks of vuln is a good deal, but vuln is already easy enough to apply through GS in my opinion. Plus, its a delayed application, since those stacks would rely on the enemy being hit by the return arc of the GS as well. Overall, I think that this initial attack would be better if it was just a mirror blade that only had 1 or 2 bounces instead of 3.
Half of the new effects are absolute underwhelming. Overall not one of them fixes the problems mesmer face, with terrible AI, most damage bound on phantasm instead of the player and terrible cleave/overall damage.
While the idea is not bad with the additional effect, I don’t see where the improved constant pressure should be. Those attacks deal simply no damage. Worst is here iBerserker, it feels way more clunky than before the patch. The new attack does not more than 300 damage on full berserker class with a crit. That is completely useless for all the downsides the new attacks brought in to the game. If they really want to get rid of stealth cast, so be it. But then they should proper communicate that and give us some real compensation.
The iSwordsman is the same. The idea here is not that bad with giving it an additional effect if used in close range for more risk reward play. But still another attack of around 200 dmg in with the risk of being in close combat? It again defeats the purpose of even being slightly useful.
Both attacks on those phantasms need a fundamental increase in their damage. And I am not talking about another +7% increase like most balance patches brought to us. They should at least be on par with our auto attacks as bad as they are. And iBerserker needs its animation fixed to be as fast as the old one.
I had not much chance to test the change on the pistol phantasm. My first impression is, that the new effect is again weak. As other stated an unload similar to the phantasm, would fit much better.
At least the new iWarden seems better with the synergy of immobilize.
We need build and gear-templates!!!!!!!!!!
the swordsman attack deals 1,3-1,5k dmg so.. and thats with not might
Oh cool a 1 second cast to do less damage then our already low auto attcks.
What’s there to discuss? The attacks were simply added so that phantasm skills will cause reveal. The other effects are just there to cover up their true purpose.
I think the disenchanter got a treatment that every phantasm should get: The phantasm summon triggers after the initial attack hits, meaning that the phantasm will even be summoned when you cast the skill while blinded. The initial attack fails, but the summon itself not.
The fact there has been an increase on cast time for very minor and sometimes hindering effect is cause for concern. We should probably have a general conversation regarding the state of phantasms as a whole. After a shatter summoning an uncovered phantasm in the past was already a “HEY I’M OPEN” sign given how long the phantasm would take to attack after being cast, and in cases like GS where the phantasm would spawn on the target at a distance was completely made null by thief shadow steps, phoenix ele bursts, and guard meditations, and really any mobility or gap closing skill. So summoning now feels worse on a whole for everything that isn’t focus, and staff. (and pistol but that might be a bug)
Considering how phantasms are the most reliable source of damage and pressure Everything should be at least 1/2 second cast.
Sword the slash feels bad because of the cast time, fix that and maybe add might to Illusionary riposte and you’ll have a good weapon for both PvE and PvP. Phantasms giving might is still pretty bad design. If it’s a new expansion feature it’s bad for core mes unless they are changing how core illusions function.
Greatsword Needs to be safer. It’s slow, it reveals you if stealthed, very flashy animation just to point you out even more clearly. This would all be fine if it did a lot more damage. Should either be a 1.75 coefficient, or be a 200 – 240 radius knock down to cover the phantasm cast.
Pistol I don’t know if this is bugged but it says 1/2 cast. The casting feels fine, and the cripple is nice but seems a bit inconsequential for the weapon. Trying not to be a DPS weapon I think it needs more utility like if Pistol duelist were to increase the duration of soft cc conditions so it would give more pressure to the unload.
Focus I like how it functions, the cast is a bit slow 3/4 would probably feel better.
Torch Still my least favorite phantasm, someone who dislikes condi less could tell you how good the burning is. But I feel like the fury is pretty meh, the cooldown still needs to be significantly reduced if we’re leaving it as it is. Otherwise we should increase the attack rate, and add baseline condition cleanse back into it’s bounces. The problem I have with it is that it’s expensive shatter fodder on a power build which arguably needs the weapon more than a condi spec.
Staff Phant cast is fine, if there is only one target it’s like keeping the auto attack while casting, if there is more it’s a party of purple bounces so it’s kinda nice.
idc about underwater, and rouge is fine.
“I control time and space; you can’t break free.~”
“Maybe I was the illusion all along!”
“Maybe I was the illusion all along!”
(edited by Daishi.6027)
Oh cool a 1 second cast to do less damage then our already low auto attcks.
The “skill” had already a “cast” now you get free dmg during said cast. Its not that hard really
Oh cool a 1 second cast to do less damage then our already low auto attcks.
The “skill” had already a “cast” now you get free dmg during said cast. Its not that hard really
They nerfed the cast time on greatsword to compensate. Iirc they also nerfed it on sword. It’s not just free damage, you’re completely wrong.
The fact there has been an increase on cast time for very minor and sometimes hindering effect is cause for concern. We should probably have a general conversation regarding the state of phantasms as a whole. After a shatter summoning an uncovered phantasm in the past was already a “HEY I’M OPEN” sign given how long the phantasm would take to attack after being cast, and in cases like GS where the phantasm would spawn on the target at a distance was completely made null by thief shadow steps, phoenix ele bursts, and guard meditations, and really any mobility or gap closing skill. So summoning now feels worse on a whole for everything that isn’t focus, and staff. (and pistol but that might be a bug)
Considering how phantasms are the most reliable source of damage and pressure Everything should be at least 1/2 second cast.
Sword the slash feels bad because of the cast time, fix that and maybe add might to Illusionary riposte and you’ll have a good weapon for both PvE and PvP. Phantasms giving might is still pretty bad design. If it’s a new expansion feature it’s bad for core mes unless they are changing how core illusions function.
Greatsword Needs to be safer. It’s slow, it reveals you if stealthed, very flashy animation just to point you out even more clearly. This would all be fine if it did a lot more damage. Should either be a 1.75 coefficient, or be a 200 – 240 radius knock down to cover the phantasm cast.
Pistol I don’t know if this is bugged but it says 1/2 cast. The casting feels fine, and the cripple is nice but seems a bit inconsequential for the weapon. Trying not to be a DPS weapon I think it needs more utility like if Pistol duelist were to increase the duration of soft cc conditions so it would give more pressure to the unload.
Focus I like how it functions, the cast is a bit slow 3/4 would probably feel better.
Torch Still my least favorite phantasm, someone who dislikes condi less could tell you how good the burning is. But I feel like the fury is pretty meh, the cooldown still needs to be significantly reduced if we’re leaving it as it is. Otherwise we should increase the attack rate, and add baseline condition cleanse back into it’s bounces. The problem I have with it is that it’s expensive shatter fodder on a power build which arguably needs the weapon more than a condi spec.
Staff Phant cast is fine, if there is only one target it’s like keeping the auto attack while casting, if there is more it’s a party of purple bounces so it’s kinda nice.
idc about underwater, and rouge is fine.
The sword already had a cast time it wasnt instantanious we just got an added atack in that with a tiny bit longer channel :/ But generally i agree that the channels in both sword and focus are abit long
Edit: the focus skill feels too long.
(edited by zealex.9410)
Oh cool a 1 second cast to do less damage then our already low auto attcks.
The “skill” had already a “cast” now you get free dmg during said cast. Its not that hard really
They nerfed the cast time on greatsword to compensate. Iirc they also nerfed it on sword. It’s not just free damage, you’re completely wrong.
ok the channel its longer (which i dont agree with) but the attack now gives you might and it deal dmg. The skill got buffed.
A thought on sword.
It would would maybe justify the cast time if it did 240 radios 5s weakness “on cast” instead of might, while still keeping the attack.
For a phantasm that spawns near you and gets cleaved pretty hard, ever since the LoS changes wayyyy back I don’t think the cast time was that justified in general.
But hey I’d be fine with an illusion rework too, I hope the might on phants was not a blunder and was indicative of something to come. But that’s just me being optimistic. If it’s only for the elite spec and has no affect on core I’mma be disappoint…
“I control time and space; you can’t break free.~”
“Maybe I was the illusion all along!”
“Maybe I was the illusion all along!”
(edited by Daishi.6027)
What’s there to discuss? The attacks were simply added so that phantasm skills will cause reveal. The other effects are just there to cover up their true purpose.
Hit the nail on the head there. Thank You.
Mesmerising Girl
A thought on sword.
It would would maybe justify the cast time if it did 240 radios 5s weakness “on cast” instead of might, while still keeping the attack.
For a phantasm that spawns near you and gets cleaved pretty hard, ever since the LoS changes wayyyy back I don’t think the cast time was that justified in general.
But hey I’d be fine with an illusion rework too, I hope the might on phants was not a blunder and was indicative of something to come. But that’s just me being optimistic. If it’s only for the elite spec and has no affect on core I’mma be disappoint…
I dought if you will see any addition to the main mesmer (other than the phantasm changes now) than a illusion rework. If they go further into this buffig phantasms it will prob be elite spec while you can have this in a minor way outside the spec. Hence specialising.