Guild Wars 2

Was thinking about this but got me to a problem I had long time ago: Why is this phantasm being spawned next to yourself instead of next to the enemy? I find this phantasm to be a lackluster when it comes to PvP. This is mostly caused by the fact that it barely hits when casted from range and even if it hits, it’s damage is pretty weak.
Also a thing to note is that this phantasm is the only melee phantasm that spawns next to yourself instead of next to the target like Izerker, Iwarden, Irogue and Imariner.

Another thing is that the phantasm doesn’t really do much besides damage. Yes it has a leap, but leaps usually only benifit the person that does the leap, aka the phantasm. (Which seems pretty pointless to me since it will most likely die to 1 attack anyway so things like chaos armor are not really gonna affect much)
It’s not like Iduelist or Iwarden that can actually combo well with fields to apply some more conditions.

And then not to mention it’s wierd leap in front and then leap back to like.. 1/2 of the leap range? Why not leap backwards the same range as fowards? 100-130 units leap backwards seems quite pointless to me.

Also take a look at: Rework Weapon Blocks. Sword off hand could get so much more love to be viable…

Somebody would argue iswordman hits like a truck.
It actually does hit very kitten squishy targets, however I agree I do not like the fact that it spawns next to you. Also, being a melee combatant will often die by aoe. iBerserker will die too, but at least it can deal massive damage (if not dodged) before dying whereas iswordman (although it has the higest dps among all phantasms) will hit once and than die, making him even less useful than iwarden.

It depends though… in some situation (see asskicker build by Ross) it really contributes in killing ppl fast.

Saying that, I must agree I do not like it very much and having it spawned next to the target seems the most logical change

Well… any phantasm hits like a truck on squishy targets… Compare it to other phantasm it actually is weaker and only ‘’hits harder’’ due faster attacks per minute. Too bad it almost always dies after 1 attack.

yep, I couldn’t agree more

BlackDevil.9268:

Well… any phantasm hits like a truck on squishy targets… Compare it to other phantasm it actually is weaker and only ‘’hits harder’’ due faster attacks per minute. Too bad it almost always dies after 1 attack.

Yeah, see that Ross guys Asskicker build. I don’t have any problem with the phantasm and have to disagree. You didn’t really provide any argument for why its bad for spawning next to the caster and not the target. Hell, I’ll do it for you as the only time it matters is when you’re on some sort of ledge without means of access to a target, meaning you have to abandon your height disadvantage (or get up to) to engage this phantasm with a player. Other than that the next to player casting allows you to generate a timed burst. I have no shortage of video showing me do this consistently.

So yeah, the only downside to casting on the caster and not target is the elevated level thing. Otherwise the mechanic allows for amazing burst application.

iSwordsman evade leap > iZerker melee spin.

iSwordsman has a better rate of survival than the iZerker because when he attacks he evades through aoe, cleave, and CC. iZerker on the otherhand often dies on summon simply because he has to wade through the hate. The benefit to zerker is he’s aoe where’as Swordsman is single target. But that’s not a bad thing.

What? You’re asuming to be 24/7 close to your target or what? Why would you give a melee skill 1200 yards range, when all it does is dieing when used at 1200 yards? Might as well just reduce that to 600 if it’s only for close range purpose. Cause The block is close ranged too right? Oh wait, 900 yards. That’s equal range to scepter, a medium ranged weapon.
I also have no idea what a dueling build with 0 team support and a 100% win for any somewhat skilled ele, engi, thief, hell probably even power ranger should have to do with the skill im trying to discuss about. You can’t say ‘’oh it’s working in 1v1 on close range spots so it’s fine’’. Of course it’s gonna work on 1v1’s in close range cause you wouldn’t even notice the difference between having it spawned next to the target or next to yourself.
But hey, if you want arguments:
1. It’s 100% useless with triumphant distortion. The 1 second distortion is already worn out the moment it wants to land its hit once used >900 yards due slow moving speed of the phantasm.
2. In team fights, it dies most of the time before reaching the enemy, while any other melee phantasm will easily hit it at least once before dieing.

3. And maybe if you would have read, you could easily see why izerker, iduelist or even arguably (though maybe not for pvp purposes) is better than Iswordman. If it would only be already for the damage. Like said, the only way iswordman will come out stronger is when being tested in a dps test. There’s almost no way an enemy player will take more than 2 hits from an iswordsman max unless he’s being totally lockdowned by CC or is utterly kitten.
4. The leap foward with evade is nice, untill you realise it only leaps backwards 100-120 units. So either the aoe field he leaps in and out is smaller than 240 radius (err… yeah… that’s pretty much none), the player is using 0 aoe skills within 5 seconds (which almost never happens) or the player is just bad and uses his aoe skills on the wrong side of the player.

5. Not only this but again, like mentioned earlier, does nothing besides damage. At least with Izerker you get a nice cripple.
Not only that but Izerker is also aoe. So once in a team fight, the Izerker will outdamage Iswordman with ease.

So I guess you could say iswordman = izerker…. in 1v1 situation…. in a tight area…. against bad players…

You’re insane if you think the swordsman is weak.

The swordsman can apply insane pressure in small fights (up to 2v2). I agree that it is lackluster in large team fights, but that’s the intent.

Guess that’s also the reason we see off hand sword being used so much then lol.

You’re insane if you think the swordsman is weak.

I never said it’s weak. I said it was weaker/worse than other phantasm. That’s a big difference.

From a somewhat rookie mesmer’s – ~700 ranked games on mes – (but otherwise experienced player) perspective:

I like to think of OH weapons as more of utility weapons than damage dealing sets in PvP.
Talking about shatter spec(s), OH phantasms are terribly unreliable when it comes to dealing damage against experienced players and therefore their strength does not lie in their own burst potential.

Torch – stealth: good for defensive and offensive purposes aswell combined with the blind. Time it right and blind that crucial incoming burst or use it to set up your own from Stealth + melee MB facemelting combo/Moa

Focus – pull: secure/interrupt stomps, chain it to an immob combo, etc. No need to expand on that

Pistol – stun: interrupt stomps/heals/critical skills
note – this is probably the only OH weapon, where the phantasm does not suck utterly at dealing dmg

Sword – block/daze: block the incoming burst + counter with decent dmg, daze the stomps/rezzes, etc.

Now, I’m sure I don’t need to elaborate on why OH phantasms suck at dealing dmg themselves, but just in case let me make a short list anyway

Torch: low dmg output, period.
Pistol: easily readable animation >> easy to dodge
Focus: iWarden stands still >> move out of its range >> avoid its full dmg
Sword: the aforementioned range issue + slow movement

The real strength of OH phantasms lies in their shatter potential imo or their potential to combine with other (MH) skills, such as the MH immob on the Sw.
Talking about combos like the iWarden>>curtain>>Swap, or the iDuelist>>Stun>>Swap combo. Such combos are very much possible with the OH sword aswell, but again, I think its utility value outweighs its dmg dealing value.

Speaking of which, its CD is one of the lowest, talking about OH phantasms, which further strengthens its utility value and synchs well with your shatter CDs.

Don’t take me wrong, I don’t personally like OH sword, I’m a much bigger fan of the OH torch, even though its phantasm is even worse at dealing damage, but I can definitely see its potential in certain playstyles. 12s on-demand block AND/OR daze? Yes, pls.

As for your GS ||OH Sw comparison: your are comparing a strictly damage dealing weapon set (GS) with a much more utility based set (Sw/Sw – in this case). Of course the DD set will be more suitable for actual damage dealing…

Meh, iSwordsman on the OH loadout, with a MH sword is fine. I’d say Blackdevil, your view is to narrow. Comparisons phant to phant might look smart but unfortunately you have to take entire weapon sets into account with adjoining trait setups and play styles. So saying “iZerker is better in a team situation” doesn’t help much.

Lets say I just grant your your assertion that iSwordsman is only going to get one attack off. I’m not sure why that matters if you only need the one attack inside of a wider burst to down an opponent. Add to that the low CD mentioned above, you have a new iSwordsman every weapon rotation making the up time unmanageable for an opponent for any length of time. The Phantlock Asskicker build I’ve presented in detail with a ton of footage in a variety of situations vs many different enemies/builds has shown just how good the iSwordsman is within the larger framework of a build. To say its not good, or “weaker/worse than other phantasms” with the case you’ve presented is either inexperience, or plain ignorance.

Buff it though if you like. I won’t complain.

Sword off-hand is quite common in pve, so I think maybe the o.p. wants to talk about sword off-hand in pvp and wvw.

I think before we start talking down sword off-hand like it’s a bad weapon we need to understand some things about it.

1. It has a cooldown of 20 seconds which can become 12 seconds by investing 3 points into illusions and 2 points into dueling.
_*Off-hand pistol has an equivalent cooldown, but requires an additional 2 points into the dueling trait-line to bring the cooldown down to 12 seconds. Furthermore, choosing “duelist’s discipline” means you have to forgo “deceptive evasion” in a lot of builds. _

2. The phantasmal swordsman has the quickest rate of attack of all damage phantasms. It executes its illusionary sword attack every 4 seconds. Going 4 deep in the illusions trait-line allows you to equip “phantasmal haste” which brings the phantasmal swordsman’s attack to 3.2 seconds.

3. The phantasmal swordsman’s attack is a leap finisher, applying the leap finisher effect to the mesmer upon summoning (even if the mesmer is not in the field) as well as the phantasm itself after every attack.

4. Phantasmal swordsman has the high single hit damage (probably the highest dps given its quick attack rate) of any attacking phantasm.
*Note, other phantasms achieve their damage through multiple hits and have slower rates of attack.

5. Illusionary Riposte has the same base damage as phantasmal swordsman, meaning when it crits, like the swordman, it literally hits like a truck. Furthermore, it spawns an illusion which is useful for shattering.

6. Counter Blade (the daze projectile) pierces and can daze up to 5 targets at once. I personally find that most players don’t expect this interrupt skill because sword off-hand is quite uncommon in player vs player matchups.

As far as your arguments are concerned as to why the off-hand sword is bad, I have to unequivocally disagree. Most of the arguments you proposed have been disproved by the above information (which I pulled from the wiki). The other arguments which pertain to pathing issues and moving targets apply to ALL phantasms or (minions).

To finish, I don’t think off-hand sword is bad. I actually like it. It’s unique, and you look like bad kitten as a magician class wielding two swords. It isn’t weak, it’s quite strong actually and I think buffing it would make it even stronger.

All of what you say it’s fine… in theory. In practice, iswordman dies quickly by aoe, leaving you with one, max two hits. His leap does not put him far away enough to avoid aoes since most (if not all) are larger than what he can leap. It would be nice if it could leap (or I should say teleport) back right next to you, where it spawned. That would actually make sense.

All in all it isn’t bad if you pair it with CS+blade training trait but it’s just a bit meh if used on its own

trooper.2650:

All of what you say it’s fine… in theory. In practice, iswordman dies quickly by aoe, leaving you with one, max two hits. His leap does not put him far away enough to avoid aoes since most (if not all) are larger than what he can leap. It would be nice if it could leap (or I should say teleport) back right next to you, where it spawned. That would actually make sense.

All in all it isn’t bad if you pair it with CS+blade training trait but it’s just a bit meh if used on its own

Dont all phantasms die quickly though, especially in aoes?

Ross Biddle.2367:

Meh, iSwordsman on the OH loadout, with a MH sword is fine. I’d say Blackdevil, your view is to narrow. Comparisons phant to phant might look smart but unfortunately you have to take entire weapon sets into account with adjoining trait setups and play styles. So saying “iZerker is better in a team situation” doesn’t help much.

Lets say I just grant your your assertion that iSwordsman is only going to get one attack off. I’m not sure why that matters if you only need the one attack inside of a wider burst to down an opponent. Add to that the low CD mentioned above, you have a new iSwordsman every weapon rotation making the up time unmanageable for an opponent for any length of time. The Phantlock Asskicker build I’ve presented in detail with a ton of footage in a variety of situations vs many different enemies/builds has shown just how good the iSwordsman is within the larger framework of a build. To say its not good, or “weaker/worse than other phantasms” with the case you’ve presented is either inexperience, or plain ignorance.

Buff it though if you like. I won’t complain.

The way you shown it is against terribad players in a tight area, mostly 1v1’s and even then most of the time you don’t even use it or it barely is useful, whereas your iduelist does almost 1/2 of the damage of your total output in the entire video.
Like that you can basically let anything look like it’s working.

All fun and all, but in practice Iswordman (and basically off-hand sword) just doesn’t work in PvP. It’s damage is easy to avoid, it’s easily being baited into aoe and killed before it has done it’s attack, it does nothing but damage and it’s damage is not higher than any other power based phantasm. It’s extremely useless when someone is running away and therefor it’s only useful in 1v1’s with people actually wanting to fight you.
Not only this, but it totally doesn’t fit at all in the way a mesmer has to position himself. You’re forced to be close to your target, will it be able to hit. I can think of countless positions for a mesmer to stand, whereas the cast of an I-swordman is completely useless in a team fight.

You would need to run some kittened dueling build to make this weapon work on offhand, which most likely is gonna be extremely useless in team fights. Might aswell run turret engi if you gonna go for such things.

PvE seems rather irrelevant since this game isn’t balanced around PvE, neither is it important what to run in PvE since (besides lvl 50 fractals maybe??) it’s not challenging at all.

fluxit.8247:

trooper.2650:

All of what you say it’s fine… in theory. In practice, iswordman dies quickly by aoe, leaving you with one, max two hits. His leap does not put him far away enough to avoid aoes since most (if not all) are larger than what he can leap. It would be nice if it could leap (or I should say teleport) back right next to you, where it spawned. That would actually make sense.

All in all it isn’t bad if you pair it with CS+blade training trait but it’s just a bit meh if used on its own

Dont all phantasms die quickly though, especially in aoes?

Some phantasms die faster than others, i.e. all ranged phantasms have better chances to stay alive (iduelist, iwarlock, image). If Anet wanted to stay true to the caster/squishy, melee/tougher type of concept they should seriously think about implementing it to phantasms too.

WoW had the same problem with hunters and walocks… pets used to immediately die to aoe feasts, halvening those professions potential dps . They easily solved it by making pets immune to aoes. I do not see why it cannot be done here. Balance? perhaps, but AIs are designed to be part of those professions. It’s fine to be able to kill them by actually targetting them, but aoe abusing over something you cannot control (I mean, you cannot ask your phantasm to move away from aoe) is not fair either.

Oh, right… we’ve got triumphant distortion. Nice fix

@Doiid (+trooper)
On one hand you are talking about how PvE environment and therefore PvE damage race is irrelevant, on the other hand you try to implement the same race into PvP by comparing Phantasms’ damage output.

Any mesmer who relies on his phantasms to deal damage (unless it’s a strictly phantasm-based build) is playing the class wrong, or should rather say not to its fullest potential. Sure, Phantasms are a nice addition to your overall damage output but by no means your main source of damage.

In an AoE-rich environment iZerker dies just as quickly as iSwordsman, not to mention its increased incoming damage from retaliation (which is a quite common boon in PvP) due to its AoE nature.

All Phantasms need the same time to die in an AoE-rich environment, which converges to 0s.
Except iDuelist and iMage – talking about OH weapons (don’t even know why you bring up iLock). iDuelist is the only ranged phantasm that is worth keeping up based on its damage output. All of the other OH Phantasms are worth more to be shatter fodder (rly cenzorship? lol).

BlackDevil.9268:

It’s damage is easy to avoid, it’s easily being baited into aoe and killed before it has done it’s attack, it does nothing but damage and it’s damage is not higher than any other power based phantasm. It’s extremely useless when someone is running away and therefor it’s only useful in 1v1’s with people actually wanting to fight you.

- all Phantasms animations are fairly obvious, therefore really easy to dodge, except maybe iLock and iMage, but there the projectile speed comes into the picture, which is rather slow
- all Phantasms, ranged or melee, can just as easily be baited into AoE, as all Phantasms are AIs without programming to avoid damage (except the swordsman’s leap btw)
it applies a Leap finisher (single target heal/frost aura/shock aura/fire aura/chaos armor/retal), which is more than any other (OH) Phantasm can do. iDuelist has only 20% chance to proc a projectile finisher
- all Phantasms are useless when ppl are running away, except maybe iZerker (which is not an OH Phantasm btw), that applies a nice cripple. Talking about people and running away – all Phantasms need to stand still to execute their attack (chain), except iZerker, which means the Phantasm either chases the target running away and not attacking, or launch its attack and risk that the fleeing target gets out of range. If you want to chase people down with your Phantasm so badly, iSwordsman is your best bet besides iZerker, as it is only the Swordsman that has a gap closer.

That is strictly comparing the Phantasm summoning skills. For utility-wise, see my post above.

…
My comment on the damage is because of people using the argument that Iswordman ‘’hits like a truck’’, which is not true unless you mention that for any phantasm due that nearly all power based phantasm hit equally hard.

My argument about that it is easy to bait into aoe refers to the very first post, where I mention Iswordman is being spawned next to the caster instead of the target. This meaning it is much easier to bait into aoe than any other phantasm.

Iduelist is far from useless when the enemy runs away due range. Neither is Izerker due it’s being spawned next to the target so it will always launch it attack. Iswordman, however, will most likely not hit once casted on a target running away due it’s horrible location of spawning.

Iswordman has 1 attack. Therefor it can be blocked with a normal block or aegis much easier so also be avoided much easier. As for Izerker and iduelist it will hit no matter the aegis or weapon block. Damage spread across more hits > singular hit in most of the AI cases. As you said, you don’t use it for damage only, but many other purposes. This is in my opinion a major one of them if you would want to bait defensive skills so you can land your burst/immobilize.

Iduelist and Izerker both have a much higher chance of applying bleedings and will most likely also apply more bleeding stacks therefor deal more damage and be more useful in builds other than full power based.

Like mentioned in a previous post and I’ll mention it again because this is one of the most crucial ones: It does not, I repeat not fit in the way mesmer has to position himself. If you gonna go balls deep as mesmer in spvp you most likely gonna find yourself dieing very quickly or being forced to bail out the fight unless you win the fight right after.

Tell me 1 situation where the leap combo can be useful when casting iswordman without it being totally useless. Cause the only thing I can think of is casting it just for the leap combo to stealth in a blinding field and having your iswordman not even being spawned or having to run all the way to your enemy and most likely will die or gets stuck before hitting the enemy.

glorius.1235:

All Phantasms need the same time to die in an AoE-rich environment, which converges to 0s.

Do you agree that iduelist has better chance to survive when casted from 900, let alone 1200 than, lets say, iswordman?
When shattering in a AoE-rich environmnet clones, and often phantasms, don’t even make it to the target before dying,

Ofc all phantasms need the same time to die. They all have the same health pool.(except iwarden). But we are discussing the viability of iswordman vs other phantasms. It is a good phantasm but but but… it has all been said in previous posts.

BlackDevil.9268:

…
My comment on the damage is because of people using the argument that Iswordman ‘’hits like a truck’’, which is not true unless you mention that for any phantasm due that nearly all power based phantasm hit equally hard.

My argument about that it is easy to bait into aoe refers to the very first post, where I mention Iswordman is being spawned next to the caster instead of the target. This meaning it is much easier to bait into aoe than any other phantasm.

Iduelist is far from useless when the enemy runs away due range. Neither is Izerker due it’s being spawned next to the target so it will always launch it attack. Iswordman, however, will most likely not hit once casted on a target running away due it’s horrible location of spawning.

Iswordman has 1 attack. Therefor it can be blocked with a normal block or aegis much easier so also be avoided much easier. As for Izerker and iduelist it will hit no matter the aegis or weapon block. Damage spread across more hits > singular hit in most of the AI cases. As you said, you don’t use it for damage only, but many other purposes. This is in my opinion a major one of them if you would want to bait defensive skills so you can land your burst/immobilize.

Iduelist and Izerker both have a much higher chance of applying bleedings and will most likely also apply more bleeding stacks therefor deal more damage and be more useful in builds other than full power based.

Like mentioned in a previous post and I’ll mention it again because this is one of the most crucial ones: It does not, I repeat not fit in the way mesmer has to position himself. If you gonna go balls deep as mesmer in spvp you most likely gonna find yourself dieing very quickly or being forced to bail out the fight unless you win the fight right after.

Tell me 1 situation where the leap combo can be useful when casting iswordman without it being totally useless. Cause the only thing I can think of is casting it just for the leap combo to stealth in a blinding field and having your iswordman not even being spawned or having to run all the way to your enemy and most likely will die or gets stuck before hitting the enemy.

If it hits, it hits like a truck. When it comes to dodging phantasm attacks (if you really have to), I don’t find any phantasm to be harder to dodge – assuming you have the luxury to pay attention to the phantasm’s animation. The same is the case with iZerker, iLock, any other phantasm. The if is always there.

Baiting is only possible if people are kiting – it can be done succesfully against all phantasms with equal chance (except maybe iZerker, due to the aforementioned cripple).
All you need to do is to get out of its range and the phantasm will stop q’ing its attack and will try to close the gap till it gets into range to execute its attack.
With continuous movement (especially one with the aim to get away from the mesmer itself), I can see it be done for quite long – still strictly talking about pantasms.

The “delay” that Swordsman has can be also a strength. If there is a short window you know you will be able to exploit, it’s better to focus your damage on that opening rather than spread out.

We keep talking about the phantasm solely and completely forgot the “utility” skills the OHs provide. In that regard (personal preference matters ofc), the Sword OH is more than on par with the other OHs – if not better. The block is extremely valuable against thieves amongst many others, that are known to be mesmer’s hard counter.

The Leap is a single target buff, granted, but then again, mesmer is not really known for boon sharing or group support, so I don’t think there’s any issue with that.
The self heal is useful, as you don’t have any blast finishers (besides torch, which is a delayed blast), so is the single Chaos Armor from your null field or a shocking aura from a static to negate inc dmg, I could expand on that for more, but that is not the point here.

I think we have a playstlye preference issue here. You have your own style and taste in combat, which is all good. But to say that certain weapon sets need buffs, just because they don’t suit your taste – cause that is the ultimate issue here – could make people jump to wrong conclusions.

The swordsman isn’t meant for team fights. It is meant for single target pressure. It baits dodge rolls very well in 1v1s and 2v2s. It also spawns next to the caster, so you can choose exactly where to place it. If you think it is a poor phantasm in small fights, maybe try positioning it differently.

trooper.2650:

glorius.1235:

All Phantasms need the same time to die in an AoE-rich environment, which converges to 0s.

Do you agree that iduelist has better chance to survive when casted from 900, let alone 1200 than, lets say, iswordman?

If you cast it from that range, all the target needs to do is dodge once backwards and it will get out of the Duelist’s range. Then the Duelist needs to close the gap and the baiting begins.
It is just a different kind of kiting. Instead of kiting a melee phantasm, you’ll kite a ranged one. Essentially the same.

So no, I don’t agree that duelist has better chance to survive.
Against non-reacting players, it has. Against good players, it has just the same chance, other phantasms have.

Still it forces a target to move out the way and stay at least 900-1200 units away from the iduelist to avoid it ‘’that easily’’, whereas Iswordman can just easily die before it even started casting its attack.

I seriously have no idea why anyone would be against my proposal to change Iswordman to spawn next to the target instead of next to the caster. Especially with the offhand weapon never being meta in pvp.

BlackDevil.9268:

Still it forces a target to move out the way and stay at least 900-1200 units away from the iduelist to avoid it ‘’that easily’’, whereas Iswordman can just easily die before it even started casting its attack.

I seriously have no idea why anyone would be against my proposal to change Iswordman to spawn next to the target instead of next to the caster. Especially with the offhand weapon never being meta in pvp.

I’m not opposed to your change. I just think your overall assessment and many of the claims you’ve made are bad. So, so bad. It’s like I said, you seem either wildly inexperienced, or willfully ignorant. Ok, I get it, iSwordsman dies to AoE etc. But this isnt the iMage being unable to land his attack to a dollyak walking in the opposite direction, or a player avoiding being hit by running around and jumping. iSwordsman lands his attacks, with regularity, and he survives for many multiple attacks both in 1v1, 2v2, or even larger fights despite the perils. Yes, he gets creamed sometimes. But he also doesn’t.

Again, your view is to narrow. As in narrow minded. Which is plain to see.

BlackDevil.9268:

Still it forces a target to move out the way and stay at least 900-1200 units away from the iduelist to avoid it ‘’that easily’’, whereas Iswordman can just easily die before it even started casting its attack.

Kiting means in this case avoiding damage, not killing the phantasm. It requires the player to change position continuously regardless of his attacker’s nature (melee or ranged).

Baiting/killing the phantasm is a different case. In your example there is an imaginary deathfield between you and your target (or a strong potential for it), which is why the Swordsman can’t cover the distance between you and your target.
ie: it gets killed before he can execute its attack

Exactly the same can happen with the iDuelist. The deathfield is still there, just like in the Swordsman’s case. The difference is that the target needs to react (slightly move back) to lure the iDuelist into his trap. I see no issue with that.

Another point to bring up >> why would you have a second range weapon (as in casting pistol from 1200 range) and not pick staff then, besides your GS? If you want to play double ranged, go for Staff/GS.
If you want to grab MH sword, that means you will be aiming at ~600 range with your MH sword. Casting your duelist from 1200 makes no sense in that case – you cannot follow up with your MH skills, as they have the range of 600 units.
You will essentially lose out on dps as you’ll have to cover the gap yourself – the same way if you would cast your iSwordsman from 1200 range. It is not designed to be used from range. Now, why ANet gave it such a long range, while it’s clearly not designed to be used from that range is another question, but probably because all phantasm summoning skills have 1200 range from the start (except pistol, that has to be traited to achieve that)

Like I said, you guys want OH sword to be something, that Staff already is, something that it is not and you two say that because it is not, what you want it to be, it is flawed.

Time to enter into the fray. Hopefully whatever I say is relevant. :P Otherwise… massive edits!

Phantasm swordsman is good! Now aside from its strengths like more frequent attacks, the leap animation, the leap buff to its caster and the phantasm itself, I see that many people ignore the entire mechanism of the phantasm fight itself and how the swordsman finds itself more than useful in many situations.

After reading some comments, the common theme is that phantasms die quickly and implicitly limits its use. People ignore the fact that:

1) A phantasm user can spawn more phantasms quickly and efficiently, even after the current ones on the field die to anything, especially AoEs.
2) Should that opponent move away from the phantasm mesmer itself in order to lure the phantasms into a bad position (and then proceed to kill them), they can lose out on position. The opponent might let the phantasm mesmer decap an enemy point or capture a point which lets him/her defend it.

And thus people who have to face against phantasm mesmers either retreat and never come back for some time (usually when the mesmer’s health goes back to full when out of combat) or come in with the risk of getting hit by the phantasms, which has the potential to bring significant impact as a shatter attack.

Even if the phantasm dies from AoE attacks or their one attack (or a series of attacks) fail, all the mesmer has to do is to survive for 12 seconds (if properly traited) before spawning them again. Blocks, invulnerabilities, and protection only happen essentially seldom whereas the phantasm mesmer will spawn more and more till the opponent kneels over.

Now onto the phantasm swordsman itself. I actually like the idea that it spawns right next to the opponent. But then again, I would see Anet’s reason NOT to do that and honestly if they refuse to do that, then I’d side with them. If the phantasm swordsman spawn next to the opponent, they apply the leap animation attack at a sudden moment which is like how a shadow thief does its attack. Mesmers are duelists, not stealthy thieves. And there’s no reason for the swordsman to spawn right next to the opponent, even when both the opponent and the mesmer close on each other. Even if one has to cross the other’s lethal range, a good mesmer will close in and spawn the swordsman at close range.

Now on the debate that it dies quickly and its damage wouldn’t be an impact because of that. It dies quickly like any other phantasm. The big thing is that phantasm swordsman are easy to summon out and every 3-4 seconds, they attack. This means that even if their one attack is blocked via Aegis or invulnerability, it can attack again. Most players either ignore the swordsman at peril or attempt to destroy it, which is sometimes unsuccessful. And even if they destroy it, the run the risk by the attack from the actual mesmer itself.

There’s more to the swordsman than its stats and its mechanics. The mesmer can make phantasms a living nightmare or just a sad pathetic illusion of itself.

@glorious
Please explain me why it’s not designed for range if any other melee focussed phantasm is being spawned next to the target, both skills on the off hand are ranged (i.e. >900 units) and even the phantasm itself leaps from a reasonable range bigger than melee as attack. Just because it’s a sword it shouldn’t be instantly something that’s close range. Torch is even a more melee focussed weapon than off hand sword, yet that has a phantasm that has a ranged attack.

Off hand sword can be a really good alternative instead of torch just because of the leap combo on the phantasm when used in combination with a thief. You’re not gonna use phase retreat for something like that if you wanna burst because you wanna stay double ranged with that. You also don’t have immobilize on staff and no on demand 2.5 second evade. The thing is, 20/16 seconds for a leap finisher only is rather pointless if you can aswell just get your torch out and have on demand stealth, bigger burst and survival, unless the phantasm actually hits. Now this is the problem, because in team fights it’s not gonna hit, especially if you stealth on the side with a thief before jumping in on a target.

If this weapon get’s no buff it will always be the 2nd choice… or 3rd… or 4th… especially with this new off hand shield comming up that will bring some fun ‘’dps guardian’’ likely play with it. Sword off hand will be close to useless next to that, torch and pistol.

@ ross

Let’s not talk about inexperience shall we? My eyes are still hurting from seeing the skill klicking.

BlackDevil.9268:

@glorious
1. Please explain me why it’s not designed for range if any other melee focussed phantasm is being spawned next to the target, both skills on the off hand are ranged (i.e. >900 units) and even the phantasm itself leaps from a reasonable range bigger than melee as attack. Just because it’s a sword it shouldn’t be instantly something that’s close range. Torch is even a more melee focussed weapon than off hand sword, yet that has a phantasm that has a ranged attack.

2. Off hand sword can be a really good alternative instead of torch just because of the leap combo on the phantasm when used in combination with a thief. You’re not gonna use phase retreat for something like that if you wanna burst because you wanna stay double ranged with that. You also don’t have immobilize on staff and no on demand 2.5 second evade. The thing is, 20/16 seconds for a leap finisher only is rather pointless if you can aswell just get your torch out and have on demand stealth, bigger burst and survival, unless the phantasm actually hits. Now this is the problem, because in team fights it’s not gonna hit, especially if you stealth on the side with a thief before jumping in on a target.

1. This goes way beyond the nature of the weapon set, but I can get into details if you want me to.
I think, we can all agree on that OH Sword is a power-based OH. Therefore, it shall be used in pair with the MH Sword. Now when would you switch to your MH Sword (and therefore OH aswell)?
A.) you are under pressure and need that on-demand distortion (BF)
B.) you want to land the finishing blow via Swap

Both cases indicate that you are in melee range. If you are not, swapping to MH (and OH) Sword, or should rather say swapping from GS is a mistake, as you will be losing out on dps. This is a rather simplified explanation, but hopefully you will get my point. If not, I can expand on why it would be a mistake to weaponswap.

Regarding OH Sword #4, I respectfully disagree. It is a melee skill. The block is and that is its main strength. You can choose to abort it and use another skill instead of it (essentially grants you a +1 skill on your OH), which has a range of 900 units.
Now as I said, I don’t get either why the 1200 range on the phantasm, considering none of the Sword skills, main hand and offhand, have the same range. Probably designer slack – as all other phantasms have the same summoning range. But when you’ll get a chance to use it (ie. switch from your GS), you will be 99% in melee range. Either because you got (or about to get) backstabbed by a thief, or to further pressure a target.

That is why I say, it is not designed to be used from range.
(The spawn location has nothing to do with the phantasm’s effectiveness. The only phantasm that spawns right next to the target is the iWarden and I think we can both agree that as a melee phantasm, it has the least reliable damage. You don’t even have to dodge from its attacks, all you need to do is step back and all its hits will miss.
Even iZerker spawns from a certain distance, that he can close with the Whirl – sometimes not btw and ends up swinging in the air.)

The torch’s strength lies within the stealth, which can be used both for setting up your melee burst or for repositioning. In the first case it’s used for melee purposes, while in the second, it’s used as a ranged utility, ie: to get some distance between you and the guy who’s chasing you. Speaking of torch, I wouldn’t tag that weapon as “melee” or “ranged”, I would say, it’s purely a utility weapon.

2. Staff’s strength lies in its range, kiting potential and also in its utilities (C. Armor + Storm). With Sword OH (and therefore MH), you will be in melee range. You have to be, unless:
a.) you messed up something
b.) you were forced out of your most optimal rotation
Torch, compared to OH Sword, does not provide a bigger burst potential in itself – how you use its utility, is entirely up to you, but that can be said about any weapon set.
In fact, strictly damage-wise, Torch will be beaten by OH Sword. The reason people use Torch in GvG’s and in sPvP is that the Stealth can give you tactical advantage, some breathing room, a chance to reposition yourself without the enemy being able to react to your movement.
I’d like to point out that we’ve moved from discussing the weapon itself long ago and it is much more like a playstyle preference discussion.
I get your point, I like Torch more too. Probably because of the same reasons, you do. But I could probably force myself to learn Sword OH with all its uniqueness and be just as effective with it (considering the rather long cd on Torch Stealth), if I had to. Thing is, I don’t have to and I rely way too much on that stealth to just throw away for some kind of experiment. But who knkows, maybe I’ll try someday

BlackDevil.9268:

@ ross

Let’s not talk about inexperience shall we? My eyes are still hurting from seeing the skill klicking.

Now you’re just being weird. I run a razer naga epic. I haven’t had to click a skill in over two years. Not sure where you wanted to go with that one but GG. Unlike you I wasn’t trying to be offensive for the sake of it. Have it your way I guess. shrug

Ross Biddle.2367:

BlackDevil.9268:

@ ross

Let’s not talk about inexperience shall we? My eyes are still hurting from seeing the skill klicking.

Now you’re just being weird. I run a razer naga epic. I haven’t had to click a skill in over two years. Not sure where you wanted to go with that one but GG. Unlike you I wasn’t trying to be offensive for the sake of it. Have it your way I guess. shrug

And calling someone ignorant or inexperienced twice is totally fine right? Especially if this person who calls someone inexperienced can barely play his own class. It took me just over a minute to see you struggling to dodge hammerstun against a warrior that has no idea what he’s doing and a random necro that pops in. Then it took you 1.5 second to cast your blink on a horrible position and klicking your mass invis afterwards cause the only way to see your skill description is by hovering over it with your mouse, which is clear to see in the ‘’Phantrupt Asskicker Match (CS Lockdown)’’. All that with a dueling build.

And you’re assuming me to take you serious after calling me inexperienced or ignorant? Again, there’s a reason off hand sword has been a lackluster for the past 2 years in PvP. The fact that you can’t see why is not my problem.

@ glorious
Pistol is a power based off hand weapon too that almost always goes along with main hand sword. So this is a melee weapon too? What a silly argument.

You can easily use the block from 900 units to do the exact same as in melee range. Not to mention that the velocity of the bolt of the active effect is so fast and has such low display that it’s not even worth mentioning to not use it from range but for melee purposes only.

Not only that but you can easily use iswordman on the run to your target from 1000-1200 units. The moment you have ended your cast you should be somewhere near the 600 range cap that’s required to leap to your enemy with illusionary leap. Your example is assuming to be standing still constantly or to at least stay on more than 600 units while casting the skill.

Besides, if it would spawn near the target you could start off from s-s when standing on difficult terrain where the phantasm bugs or will be forced to run around and then swap to GS. If your target is within 600 units from this terrain (for example at keep where you have the platforms where you can stand on) you can even use your ileap to immobilize without you porting into it. The fact that you are forced to stand within melee range of the target to let the phantasm be able to hit is a massive loss for yourself, as you wanna be as much as possible on range from your enemy unless you want to burst and there will be many situations where you wont be able to spawn the phantasm because of it’s horrible spawn location so the low cooldown is after all not that useful as it seems.

glorius.1235:

The only phantasm that spawns right next to the target is the iWarden

What… Are you being serious? I even stated before all the phantasm that spawn next to the target and all melee phantasm besides iswordman spawn next to the target:
Izerker does
Iwarden does
Imariner does
Irogue does
Iswordman doesn’t

If you ask me, this is rather a ‘’designers slack’’. Because if this skill was less than 1200 range it would even become worse than it already is and never to be viable in PvP as a good off hand weapon.

BlackDevil.9268:

@ glorious
Pistol is a power based off hand weapon too that almost always goes along with main hand sword. So this is a melee weapon too? What a silly argument.

You either ignored my argument about why you’d swap to OH or didn’t understand it.
Switching to OH (and to MH sword) against ranged pressure is ineffective. Let me give you some examples
a.) power ranger sniping you
against rapid fire, the BF seems to be really good, but (assuming the ranger does it from max range as he should) then what? you will be a sitting duck as none of your weapon skills can be used from that distance. You’ll have to run to the ranger, meanwhile you’ll do no counter pressure whilest the ranger can still apply pressure to you as his weapon has a much higher range than yours
b.) power necro LB’ing your face off
while this tends to be more of a mid-ranged scenario, lot of necros use LB from range (not to its full potential, might I add). Same as the ranger – he will outrange you.

All of these specific examples are very much scenario-based, meaning it can go a lot of ways. A lot depends on cooldowns, endurance, the state of the teamfight, etc.
This is just to give some general examples of what I was talking about.

But to emphasize my main point here, stated a few posts above: Sw/x is mainly a defensive weapon set.
Or arguably an executing one. Both scenario puts you in melee range.

BlackDevil.9268:

You can easily use the block from 900 units to do the exact same as in melee range. Not to mention that the velocity of the bolt of the active effect is so fast and has such low display that it’s not even worth mentioning to not use it from range but for melee purposes only.

See my reasoning above. Blocking a ranged projectile is a prime example of using OH sword ineffectively (except maybe soft CC projectiles) . Again, to back up with specific examples, I am pretty sure OH sword block is intended to block backstabs, mighty blows, eviscerates and hammerstuns.
The clone from the block will spawn instantly, do dmg and can be instantly shattered. All that together – for maximum damage output – is only possible in melee range.
Furthermore, blocks have no range. I’m not even sure why it states a range for the block itself as it doesn’t even require a target to be performed. Probably it means the clone summoning – that it summons a clone only within 900 range.

BlackDevil.9268:

Not only that but you can easily use iswordman on the run to your target from 1000-1200 units. The moment you have ended your cast you should be somewhere near the 600 range cap that’s required to leap to your enemy with illusionary leap. Your example is assuming to be standing still constantly or to at least stay on more than 600 units while casting the skill.

Again, why would you start off with Sword from 1000-1200 range? That is just ineffective gameplay in my opinion. And goes against the most optimal uses of weaponsets.
Your counter-argument indicates, however, that the target himself will stand still. A rookie player might do so, but an experienced one will know exactly what is about to happen and will react accordingly. You will end up being kited, I can guarantee you that.
My example only states that (in my opinion) the most optimal use of the Sword OH is within 600 range, so you could instantly follow up with your main hand skills.

BlackDevil.9268:

Besides, if it would spawn near the target you could start off from s-s when standing on difficult terrain where the phantasm bugs or will be forced to run around and then swap to GS. If your target is within 600 units from this terrain (for example at keep where you have the platforms where you can stand on) you can even use your ileap to immobilize without you porting into it. The fact that you are forced to stand within melee range of the target to let the phantasm be able to hit is a massive loss for yourself, as you wanna be as much as possible on range from your enemy unless you want to burst and there will be many situations where you wont be able to spawn the phantasm because of it’s horrible spawn location so the low cooldown is after all not that useful as it seems.

I highlighted the part where you strengthen my argument. Unless you wanna do your melee burst, you will be out of range of MH sword skills >> will be (should be) using your GS.
If not, that means, like I said, that:
a.) you wanna do your melee brust with MH Sword
b.) you are under melee pressure and need that BF~distortion

BlackDevil.9268:

glorius.1235:

The only phantasm that spawns right next to the target is the iWarden

What… Are you being serious? I even stated before all the phantasm that spawn next to the target and all melee phantasm besides iswordman spawn next to the target:
Izerker does:
Iwarden does
Imariner does
Irogue does
Iswordman doesn’t

Izerker: it spawns out of melee range (quite situational actually) and covers the gap via its Whirl. Or, what is even better, spawns out of its attack range (more likely the target simply moves out of its Spin range during casting) and have to run to close the gap – just like Swordsman – before he starts attacking. Happened quite a few times with me.
Iwarden: already covered why it utterly sucks in PvP despite being a melee phantasm
Imariner: underwater phantasms do not really play a huge part in PvP
Irouge: is a downstate phantasm that could be hardly called a part of your rotation. If it is, I have bad news for you…

I will stop posting regarding this from now on as I’m only repeating myself and probably getting quite boring for other readers. We are running in circles, not getting anywhere

My only fear is, and this is probably why I’m arguing so heavily against it, that with boosting Sw OH to be a capable ranged weapon, devs will need to tune something down in order to maintain balance. Now, personally I don’t really want to see GS nerfed, just to give iSwordsman the potential to be able to be used effectively from range.

Wow, so much debate about nothing.

Of course iSwordsman will have it’s advantages and disadvantages to other phants depending on your build/playstyle/team etc etc. It’s a good and functional OH weapon, leave it the hell alone.

glorius.1235:

Phantasm snip

And what exactly should the use of phantasm have to do with if they are or not spawned in melee range? The only factor to discuss about is if the melee phantasm is spawned next to the target to instantly peform it’s attack. In the majority of the cases, all phantasm are executing their attack instantly, unless the person leaps, blinks or luckily moves at the exact opposite direction of this phantasm. With this information I can guarantee that it’s purpose is to instantly peform the attack once spawned and not to run to it’s target first before attacking. The fact that Iswordman isn’t is just poor design and totally not in line with the other phantasm, which is also one of the reasons off hand sword never been as popular as any other off hand weapon in PvP.
So again, what a silly argument. (Also, Izerker is spawned close enough to instantly perform its attack. I’m not sure why you think it doesn’t)

glorius.1235:

You either ignored my argument about why you’d swap to OH or didn’t understand it.
Switching to OH (and to MH sword) against ranged pressure is ineffective.

I never said off hand sword was effective to use against ranged pressure? I only said you could use the block from any range, as long as it was within 900 unit, it would do the exact same effect. The fact that you can set up a better burst melee range still doesn’t take away that the effect of the skill is the exact same from melee range as from 900 units. So what’s your point? That you should always use skills the most effective way possible, not based on the situation?

These examples have so little to do with my proposal, I don’t even see why you thought it was worth mentioning. Ok, you found out off hand sword is bad against ranged pressure. I could’ve told you that years ago when it was already clear the class is pretty weak against ranged pressure due its mobility. Is this an argument against the iSwordman change I proposed? Highly doubt it. It would actually rather be an argument to allow the change to buff the profession to be more effective against ranged classes.

glorius.1235:

See my reasoning above. Blocking a ranged projectile is a prime example of using OH sword ineffectively (except maybe soft CC projectiles) . Again, to back up with specific examples, I am pretty sure OH sword block is intended to block backstabs, mighty blows, eviscerates and hammerstuns.
The clone from the block will spawn instantly, do dmg and can be instantly shattered. All that together – for maximum damage output – is only possible in melee range.
Furthermore, blocks have no range. I’m not even sure why it states a range for the block itself as it doesn’t even require a target to be performed. Probably it means the clone summoning – that it summons a clone only within 900 range.

Saving it for such attacks is nice, but not required to. If this block had a super long cooldown and would reflect stun or backstab to the person I would say yes, it would be. But looking at the incredible low cooldown of the skill, I don’t see why you wouldn’t use it for any other purposes than you mentioned. It’s not like you’re gonna safe your mirror blade only if you wanna use your mind wrack or the other way around. Not to mention it has a totally different attack by using the active effect of it. You can easily use that from 800-900 units to interrupt certain skills such as healings. Using it while walking upon your enemy to block a lifeblast can easily be a setup for a burst. After all, this necro can’t life blast you while running away so you’ll be in no time at this person, especially with the 600 leap from I leap. This way you can easily use your block as effectively as you would from melee range.

This goes also for your 1000-1200 units argument:
There are enough times, especially in team fights, where you can setup from 1200 units with iswordman (especially in combination with a blind field) run onto your target and exactly time your burst the moment you get out of stealth with mirror blade and mind wrack. Starting off with S mainhand on ranged isn’t that wierd at all and allows you to setup for great close ranged bursts. This can be done with torch easily, but currently you are forced to have a thief to do the same, but with less burst because your Iswordman most likely gonna do or not gonna hit. This is a huge disadvantage compared to torch. Another reason Off hand sword has never been meta.

glorius.1235:

I highlighted the part where you strengthen my argument. Unless you wanna do your melee burst, you will be out of range of MH sword skills >> will be (should be) using your GS.
If not, that means, like I said, that:
a.) you wanna do your melee brust with MH Sword
b.) you are under melee pressure and need that BF~distortion

Yes, good you highlighted it. So how many times do you actually use your Iswordman currently seeing it fails to land it’s attack because you want to stay ranged so much? Does that 12-20 seconds ’’low’’ cooldown really matter once you realise the only way to cast it is from a position where mesmer shouldn’t be at?

It’s funny. You give so many examples yourself showing how bad off-hand sword is, yet you are against buffing it’s weaknesses. What’s the point you’re trying to make exactly? That off-hand sword is designed to not be good in sPvP? Because the situations you’re mentioning aren’t gonna change and with stronghold only will become more likely to happen.

kodesh.2851:

Wow, so much debate about nothing.

Of course iSwordsman will have it’s advantages and disadvantages to other phants depending on your build/playstyle/team etc etc. It’s a good and functional OH weapon, leave it the hell alone.

So fine it never has been meta for 2.5 years? Right dude.

BlackDevil.9268:

Ross Biddle.2367:

BlackDevil.9268:

@ ross

Let’s not talk about inexperience shall we? My eyes are still hurting from seeing the skill klicking.

Now you’re just being weird. I run a razer naga epic. I haven’t had to click a skill in over two years. Not sure where you wanted to go with that one but GG. Unlike you I wasn’t trying to be offensive for the sake of it. Have it your way I guess. shrug

And calling someone ignorant or inexperienced twice is totally fine right?

You’ve misinterpreted and assumed waaaaaay to much.

Context is everything: You’re either ignorant (with relation to this thread and the topic of OH sword) or you’re inexperienced (with relation to this thread and the topic of OH sword). I never said anything about your overall knowledge and skill as a Mesmer. You might be amazing with staff, pistol, scepter, sword, GS, shatter, PU, CI, CS, IP, Bunker, Roamer, and on and on and on. I didnt talk once about any of that.

Just to further clarify: I was drawing that conclusion based on your continued means of argument. I wasnt just calling you names to make some personal attack. That’s the difference between what I and you did. Never the less, I apologize for offending you.

@Doiid

Let’s just agree that we are disagreeing on this topic
Like I said, we already have a pretty safe and reliable double ranged setup with Staff/GS.
Making OH Sword a viable ranged weapon (by allowing the phantasm to be summoned effectively from range), I fear, will result in nerfing one of the double ranged weapons as measures to counterbalance. Personally I don’t want that.
Furthermore, with your suggested change, S/S would become kind of an OP set, as it would have essentially no weakness. All weapons in the game have their own counterplay. By making OH Sword viable from range, you’d essentially get a weaponset that is near-perfect both for defensive and offensive purposes. Not just that, but could be used with the same effectiveness from range and from melee distance aswell.
I see OH Sword as of now as a melee-counterweapon (mainly against thieves + medi guards).
There are more popular offhand choices (Torch) currently in the meta, just because players prefer the advantage (Stealth) torch gives them over anything else currently available.

I definitely agree that spawning the phantasm in melee range would make the weapon more versatile, but I’m still not sure that it would beat torch utility-wise.
Knowing ANet and their history of balancing, they don’t just buff classes. If they give something, they’ll also take something in return.
And for max ranged, the double ranged setup is really nice in my opinion.
and S/S for melee can also be viable, it’s just not popular amongst the All-Stars at the moment…it’s player preference. Currently Torch beats everything in PvP.
Who knows…not so long ago everyone was rolling double ranged, cause Helseth, Supcutie, Misha were playing that.
Now, that they’ve switched over to Sw/T, you see more and more mesmers following them, following the “meta”.
Not so long ago it was unimaginable that anything else could be viable (meta) other than double ranged in sPvP.
Just because Sw OH is not meta at the moment, doesn’t mean, it cannot be one day.

But to once again emphasize my main point regarding Sw OH – I definitely agree, the suggested change would buff the weapon set. I don’t think ANet intended to buff the weapon set in that direction. I fear, this buff would result in some nerfs of other weapons that would severly impact the current meta.