Guild Wars 2

I love the Focus and consider Temporal Curtain one of the most useful skills in a Mesmers arsenal, especially Into The Void. What I do feel lets the weapon down however is Phantasmal Warden. In comparison to Swordsman, Warlock or Berserker it’s pretty terrible.

The Area of Effect caused by the Warden can be OK if you drop a Time Warp or Null Field over the top, to create a combo field. However, the fact the Warden is stationary makes it obsolete outside of a PvE scenario, it also doesn’t synergise well with The Void, as this can knock players far away from him.

The only viable use at the moment is to use Signet of Domination or use Illusionary Leap (and then the Warden) to hold players in place. Casting the Warden amongst a group of players to deal AOE damage is also impractical due to it dying instantly.

Finally, the defensive bubble is too small, has too shorter duration and requires you to literally hug the Warden.

I would suggest the following:

1. Have the Warden attack the targeted player like any other Phantasm, this includes the ability to chase them.

2. Have the defensive bubble as a ground effect that occurs where the Warden first appeared. i.e. If you cast Time Warp at your feet, you see the radius of the effect and can stay in it, or move out of it at your leisure to receive haste. The Warden’s defensive bubble should work the same but graphically, could be a similar dome to that of Null Field. This would then provide you and your team a clear and identifiable defensive area.

That’s it

Lewis B

I don’t really think the Warden is supposed to be used much for his damage in PvP.
His bubble is very powerful though, since you can easily hide a large number of players behind it (it’s not target capped!). Small as it may be, it helps.

Ofc a ground marker would be quite cool, to make it more clear which area is the bubble.

Carighan.6758:

I don’t really think the Warden is supposed to be used much for his damage in PvP.
His bubble is very powerful though, since you can easily hide a large number of players behind it (it’s not target capped!). Small as it may be, it helps.

Ofc a ground marker would be quite cool, to make it more clear which area is the bubble.

It can be OK in a PvE environment, but that would never ever be possible in PvP which is a real shame as TC and ITV are incredible in PvP.

Why would it not be possible in PvP? I see it work quite frequently. Yeah well, the Ae spam might eat the Warden, but then the AE spam eats everything all the time, just requires flanking instead of joining the frontline.

Ok to rephrase that:
It works in organized PvP engagements. Take 4-5 people, flank the enemy front line, the moment the front row turns to you use Warden against the closest person, disabling a fair amount of ranged fire from them, then follow up with Feedback or Temporal Curtain to block or reflect further projectiles.

Carighan.6758:

Why would it not be possible in PvP? I see it work quite frequently. Yeah well, the Ae spam might eat the Warden, but then the AE spam eats everything all the time, just requires flanking instead of joining the frontline.

Ok to rephrase that:
It works in organized PvP engagements. Take 4-5 people, flank the enemy front line, the moment the front row turns to you use Warden against the closest person, disabling a fair amount of ranged fire from them, then follow up with Feedback or Temporal Curtain to block or reflect further projectiles.

I’m part of organized PvP, as a member of Dius and having lost no tournament matches since Guild Wars 2 launched (despite the chest bug – grumble) its an incredibly cumbersome and inpractical skill. Having it create a physical bubble on the ground where it appears would be so much more useful.

Temporal Curtain when Traited is just so much better and quicker.

Oh no, I meant in WvW. Organized as in: You are running around with 4+ people on voicecomm.
The raw amount of projectiles flying around in any engagement upwards of 20 people per side already leads to a lot of reflections. You are correct ofc that a dropped bubble would allow the warden to move, but it’d be … I dunno, weird? The reason he deflects is the way he swings around his weapon, how does he do that when he moved away? :P

In WvW, my Warden is a must. The damage it does is amazing, especially when you find a stationary target in the middle of the crowd, or using it on siege equipment to help drop it, or doors.

With Fury and Bleed on Crit, the Warden does the most damage of any other skills when used properly.

SoulstitchMMO.1396:

In WvW, my Warden is a must. The damage it does is amazing, especially when you find a stationary target in the middle of the crowd, or using it on siege equipment to help drop it, or doors.

With Fury and Bleed on Crit, the Warden does the most damage of any other skills when used properly.

What would you describe as amazing?:)

I’ve 55% crit chance without Fury and use the bleed crit trait and numerically, I don’t believe it’s anywhere close to Warlock or Berserker. I’d also add, who in a crowd would remain stationary long enough to be damaged by it, that’s if said crowd doesn’t AOE bomb it.

Seige equipment, it’s fine but then so are every other Phantasm

Carighan.6758:

Oh no, I meant in WvW. Organized as in: You are running around with 4+ people on voicecomm.
The raw amount of projectiles flying around in any engagement upwards of 20 people per side already leads to a lot of reflections. You are correct ofc that a dropped bubble would allow the warden to move, but it’d be … I dunno, weird? The reason he deflects is the way he swings around his weapon, how does he do that when he moved away? :P

Well… it could be justified that he’s created the bubble with his swirling arms? Like a spell?:D

Alright so first off… I have tried all the other phantasms, as well as most popular builds. If the Warden gets his entire combo off, he does significantly more than any other phantasm. Hands down, no questions asked. Since you are running with the bleeding trait, warden also offers you the most potential, since his combo has the most hits, and therefore the most opportunity for crits and bleeds.

You stated that Temporal Curtain can pull enemies away from him… wow is that nearsighted. You can use the exact same skill to pull enemies toward him!

A huge part of Mesmer utility is controlling your opponent in one way or another. We do this by inflicting confusion and making them stop and think “wow I have 10 stacks of confusion. That’s like 1.3k damage per spell… Hmmm maybe I should stop attacking/dispel this” Or maybe it’s more like “Oh sh’t!! Chaos Storm!!” But sometimes, that controlling effect is intangible. Especially as a tournament player, I’m not sure how you belittle the Warden. Place him on a point, either as you’re defending or assaulting, and you severely limit your opponent’s ability to maneuver on that point. You can use the Warden to LoS all projectiles, which forces them to either AoE spam (which is typically less damage overall in small scale fights) or to come up at you with a melee weapon, in which case they will take damage from the Warden. This is really quite frustrating, as I’ve been on both sides of this equation.

Also, to clarify, Warden does move. He chases opponent’s when he is not attacking, but does not move while he is attacking… which is the exact same as all other illusions. The reason he seems more stationary is because his combo is so long, which could arguably be his strength when you consider his damage.

If you are intent on using the focus and really hate the warden, I have one great suggestion for you. Invest 20 points into the illusion tree and pick up the trait called “Phantasmal Haste”. It’s description is quite misleading. It says “increases recharge rate of phantasms by 20%” (or something like that). What it does is reduce the CD of your phantasm’s ability by 20%, so your phantasms attack faster. It is particularly amazing for the warden, because this begins the reduction effect the moment your warden starts attacking. So the entire 7 second whirl combo that he does is reduced. I use this trait and love it. My warden attack approximately every 2 seconds or so. His damage is far beyond any other phantasm, especially with this trait.

I’ve mentioned this before to friends, as well as on this forum… If you have a problem with the game, take a few minutes and reflect upon why it’s a problem. A lot of times, the problems that my friends have are because they aren’t taking advantage of potential, or because that skill/item doesn’t specifically strengthen their strategy and they want it to. A skill can’t please everyone. I love warden the way he is and fervently hope that he never changes.

Thank you for that Tem, very helpful. I can honestly say I’ve never once seen a Warden move and I’ve been playing since September 2011! I think some of that may however be because of the fact after a single skill use; it’s highly likely he’s already been killed.

In relation to the damage, are you sure? If he gets his entire combo off his damage is respectable, but who actually stays within his field to suffer such damage? I know of no skilled tournament players who would (or do). They see him land and simply dodge away.

In relation to TP, it absolutely can result in pulling people towards the Warden but it’s highly inaccurate. As for confusion stacking, most Mesmers who specialise in Power and Precision obviously have very little Condition Damage meaning Confusion tends to only deal base damage (or a little over) of around 150 per stack (25 + 0.5 * Level + 0.075 * Condition Damage) this really isn’t much and is dependant on them actively creating a combo field or you placing one down (Null Field et al).

Finally, I really don’t consider him viable on point control. As I’ve stated previously, in his current form no tournament team will leave him to swing on a point- he’ll be targeted and killed instantly by AOE.

Thank you for the trap tip, but I do believe that it is currently bugged for the Warden

Well.. as far as i’v seen.. the warden is one of the most amazing Phantasms ever..
the amount of attacks makes him a perfect DPSr for siege.. and the Projectile reflection defends themselves or allies from ranged attacks..

Well.. as far as i’v seen.. the warden is one of the most amazing Phantasms ever..
the amount of attacks makes him a perfect DPSr for siege.. and the Projectile reflection defends themselves or allies from ranged attacks..more than once i’v killed tons of siege equipment just by spamming them.. if u spam them propertly they are defended against range attacks all the time.. so the Veteran Scouts kill themself while trying to hit them.. and i get free siege equipment down..

Well.. as far as i’v seen.. the warden is one of the most amazing Phantasms ever..
the amount of attacks makes him a perfect DPSr for siege.. and the Projectile reflection defends themselves or allies from ranged attacks..more than once i’v killed tons of siege equipment just by spamming them.. if u spam them propertly they are defended against range attacks all the time.. so the Veteran Scouts kill themself while trying to hit them.. and i get free siege equipment down..now against people.. yeah.. you gotta use some sort of combo so people dont move, e.g.: use urself as a bait, moa bird transformation, stun, snare, or something..

Well.. as far as i’v seen.. the warden is one of the most amazing Phantasms ever..
the amount of attacks makes him a perfect DPSr for siege.. and the Projectile reflection defends themselves or allies from ranged attacks..more than once i’v killed tons of siege equipment just by spamming them.. if u spam them propertly they are defended against range attacks all the time.. so the Veteran Scouts kill themself while trying to hit them.. and i get free siege equipment down..now against people.. yeah.. you gotta use some sort of combo so people dont move, e.g.: use urself as a bait, moa bird transformation, stun, snare, or something..and yea.. the wardens move, just that they take their time to do so.. they’r movement is set to work as if their attack had around 600 range, or mayb more, when its actually around.. 300~450..
that’s the only deffective part i see in the skill, but used propertly it can be pretty amazing in both pve/pvp..

Alright, paragraph by paragraph..

He definitely does move, albeit not much, and especially not much with him traited to attack so rapidly, but I promise he moves.

I am quite sure that he does more damage with his combo, not considering any potential bleeds. I have tested extensively on the dummies. With my current build (20 dueling, 15 chaos, 15 inspiration, 20 illusions) his combo does about 3.5k to heavy dummies. The warlock (with the exact same build) does about 3k with about 4 afflictions on the heavy dummy. Duelist only manages about 2.5k. I honestly am not partial to Swordsman or Berserker and have not tested them with this particular build, but have with other builds and have seem damage from them that seems similar to Warlock. As far as forcing people to stay in his range, I do find that to be difficult, but possible. Just with sword and focus I have two ways to control an enemy’s movement (Clone Leap and Temporal Curtain, which I will mention later). If I’m really having difficulty keeping foes near him, I’ll often drop a Chaos Storm or Null field on top of him, so that his whirl combo becomes confusing bolts, which has enough range to harass the entire point, with the added bonus of all the chaosy storm goodness and confusion. Also, if the enemy sees him and dodges away, I’m okay with that, because now they have to come fight me on my terms, since I’ve wrested control of the point from them.

As far as Temporal Curtain goes… it is very accurate/reliable in my opinion. It pulls enemies a specific (not noted) distance (it seems to be about 800ish from my estimation) toward the exact center point on the line segment that is the curtain. I had to practice a lot, pulling dummies into the temporal, but once you get the hang of it it isn’t so bad. You just have to time things so that you pull your enemies in when they are a specific distance away. Also, there is a good margin of error for this, because you can pull them too soon and they’ll be yanked behind the warden, but will still be hit by him.

The main reason that I mentioned confusion was because it is a large aspect of control for some Mesmer builds. I think Warden is another way that we control the field. I’m not saying you should work confusion into your build, or anything like that. I’m just saying that Warden should be thought of less like a DPS ability (though he certainly can do that) but more of a crowd control effect.

You said that when organized teams see him, they instantly nuke him down. I think if Warden is that much of a priority, he’s gotta be doing something hot. I often have really similar problems with my illusions just dying too quickly, and for a long time I thought I would have to get the signet of illusions and the inspiration trait that gives +20% HP to phantasms. But then I realized that it also has a lot to do with combo order. If you open with Warden, yeah, they’ll destroy him before he can do anything, but if you open with a chaos storm, then blink up into it and switch to sword and blurred frenzy, they really have to scatter for a bare moment, which is enough to clone leap and get chaos armor, then place a warden. I’m not saying that’s the best combo there could ever be for Mesmer, but it’s one of the ones I like to use for scattering clustered opponents and it seems to work pretty well. Also, in an organized group environment, that type of scattering opening is all your team should need to get in there and focus one of the scattered enemies.

Which part did you think was bugged? All of the skills that I have experienced seem to be working properly. Also, anything that I have specifically mentioned are things that I have specifically used, as of last night, and would testify for.

Temariah.9372:

–snip-

Phantasmal Haste sees the Warden’s attack cooldown by 50%, which places its attacks at 6.6 seconds. Other Phantasms have theirs reduced by 20%, to also fall in line with a 6.6 second cool down on attacks.

Professional tournament teams target any Phantasm, not just the Warden. I’ve lost count of the number of times I’ve summoned a Phantasm only for it to die before it even manages to complete a single attack even when the context for use is optimal.

In relation to the damage you’ve quoted, that actually strikes me as quite low in comparison to my own which leads me to believe you are condition damage heavy? I use a 10/30/0/25/5 build and my Swordsman hits for around 5.5k damage on a 9 second cooldown. I’ve had my Warlock hit for 8k before!

I will test further, but I’m positive he doesn’t move.

I’ve personally seen Tem’s wardens move, but I’m not sure what causes it. I just know for a fact we’ve yelled “IT’S MOVING WHY IS IT MOVING LOL AWESOME”. Odds are we’ll be testing sometime soon, as the current theory involves LoS. It could just be a bug, but it has indeed happened.

I’m curious now what the optimal context for use is, and if it dies instantly, how that could possibly be optimal. Necessary maybe, but it doesn’t scream optimal. I will also say that for many mesmers I’ve seen, their phantasms have died from my general hammer thomping around, as I do a lot of Earthshakering. However, with her general focus in Phantasm health, Tem’s often just don’t die to the same attacks. They take a more concentrated effort, and when I think about the Warden doing damage if you attack it in melee, and absorbing/reflecting ranged projectiles, I’m curious how it could always consistently be brought down instantly. You either waste a burst rotation on it, or you spend too much time auto-ing it.

Of course, with 2 or even 3 people it will take less time, but that’s still potential seconds for your roamer to come lend support. If their AoE doesn’t immediately burst it down (what sort of AoE burst do you see?), you have a bit of time to dodge around it. I guess from my perspective, it may not be the straightforward/easy phantasm, I wouldn’t be surprised in the least if someone found a role/build for it, even in competitive play.

I think the warden is able to move when he is not attacking, and that his attack makes him immobile. The attack takes quite long though, so especially with phantasmal haste he won’t move much.

Despite the legitimate criticisms, I kind of like the warden, he brings a lot of utility and can shut down enemies quite nicely. The other phantasms are just a source of damage, which makes the entire class feel kinda weird and unfocused.

You’re trying to overpower the iWarden. The iWarden’s:

1. AOE
2. Much higher total damage
3. Defensive capabilities

Are balanced by the iWarden’s lack of movement. If he moves, he will be nerfed.

So relax and figure out other ways to work around his movement limitations.

In relation to TP, it absolutely can result in pulling people towards the Warden but it’s highly inaccurate.

You are incorrect. Into the Void is very, very consistent on how it moves the enemy. You need to learn it, practice it. I can throw enemies into the iWarden very reliably assuming I don’t kitten up and pull during their dodge or they get an Aegis, etc.

The damage I quoted is actually irrelevant. The relative damage of the phantasms is relevant though. My warden does more damage than any other phantasm I have. Test it on a dummy. You can find them by the DPS Trials WP to the NW of the spawn point in the Heart of the Mists. It’ll take less than 60 seconds.

“In relation to the damage you’ve quoted, that actually strikes me as quite low in comparison to my own which leads me to believe you are condition damage heavy? I use a 10/30/0/25/5 build and my Swordsman hits for around 5.5k damage on a 9 second cooldown. I’ve had my Warlock hit for 8k before!”

Did you know that damage is not always tangibly measured by the numbers you see above an enemy’s head? Also, I would enjoy hearing the circumstance you saw those numbers appear, as it does seem quite high. I explained that my numbers were against a specific heavy armor dummy. But if I had practiced against light dummies, or on a friend who wore light armor and had no toughness, I’m sure the numbers would be much higher.

The warden is very useful in WvW. Especially if you have phantasmal haste.
Useful in attacking or defending objectives. If attacking you can summon them ontop of keep walls, then switch to GS and summon the berseker. When defending throw him on meleers attacking the gate or in the middle of a pack, again switch to gs and get a beserker to support, and plop down a combo field and watch the fireworks. Spvp he is much more difficult to use (and open world wvw fights not on a keep/tower)

Yes!!! please for the love of god make phantasmal warden move towards the target, its stupidly easy to just run out of range and render it useless.

Warden is pretty fun in WvW, throw him up on the walls and follow him up with a berzerker. Your enemies will be too busy looking down to realize whats going on until its too late!