(edited by OriOri.8724)
Phantasmal force rework
For each stack, it would increase the damage and condition duration of each illusion under your control by 1%.
It should also affect clones to synergize with ambush attacks. The extra power damage won’t make a difference, but the condition duration will help a little bit, especially since they already have lower condition duration on the ambush attacks than we do.
I disagree. Only Scepter Ambush has the reduced duration and we shouldn’t embrace that discrepancy.
All other sources of Conditions from Illusions are tied to the Mesmer (AFAIK), which means that Sharper Images, Duelist’s Discipline, and the illusions themselves use the Mesmer’s Condition Duration on EVERYTHING except the Scepter Ambush. Even the Staff Ambush uses the same Condition Duration.
If it gets changed to improve condition duration, not only does that put a burden onto developers to decide which sources of conditions should be tied to illusions, but it also puts a burden onto the Mesmer who now has to deal with clone Staff Ambush having more Condition Duration than the Mesmer themselves.
Sure, “bonus condition duration” is good, but it’s also a wasted stat outside of PvP where it’s harder to reach these caps.
It should affect the mesmer himself instead of illusions directly because as it currently works, the entire buildup is still lost when you shatter.
Wouldn’t you take MoF instead of PF when you play a Shatter-build? Because PF only affects phant’s direct damage, not shatter-damage.
If Shatter-players consider MoF inferior to PF then MoF should be reworked.
@Esplen – Only apply it when the duration for clones is different then. And if its wasted who really cares? Worst that happens is we just don’t implement it.
@Lanhelin – You misunderstand the point of PF. Its not supposed to beef up a shatter build, but a phantasm one. A build focused on sustained damage. So it has a different role than MoF does. Right now, if you shatter you lose all that buildup, but moving it to the mesmer themselves and increasing the stacks when you shatter, you are allowed to shatter if you want to without losing that buildup. But shattering often would still be a detriment to your sustained DPS because you’d have to wait to get your phantasms back up 2 different roles for 2 different styles of play, so I don’t see a problem with PF being moved to the mesmer. It would still allow for PF and MoF to have their own uses.
@Lanhelin – You misunderstand the point of PF. Its not supposed to beef up a shatter build, but a phantasm one. A build focused on sustained damage.
Building for sustained damage imo excludes shattering illusions, despite one could use the F buttons. E.g. I also use PF in a sustained dmg build but barely ever shatter. The proposed rework probably also means that the Mesmer would lose all stacks in downed state, similar to any other boon. Since I use PF it often saved my life when I was downed, because the stacks on the illusions weren’t affected and built up even further (on iRogue for example, that’s available in downed state only).
Maybe there could be a trait that works reverse to PF like “Phantasmal Burst”, where phants get a certain amount (half of what PF would give when maxed?) of the boon when they’re summoned and lose % on every attack or every few seconds, so shatter players would rather want to destroy them after their first attack. For this purpose I’d again either rework MoF or put the Scepter trait elsewhere and replace it with PB.
So basically what it does is Phantasmal Force but the stacks on you rather than the Phantasms? And you can only get stacks through shattering and getting might?
It looks weird and clunky to me imo.
Sure, in an organized PvE content it would be better than our current Phantasmal Force since there’s a might stacking warrior in our party to keep up the stacks easily. It would increase DPS by about 4k since our current benchmark is on 30k (17k from Mesmer, 13k from iSwordsmen). It would serve well with Power Chrono as well, since Chronophantasma will synergize well with this trait.
The shattering for stacks also doesn’t make sense. In open world you’ll have a dilemma of whether to shatter your Phantasms or not. As the encounter lengthens and since you will not always have a warrior by your side running around you’re not gonna stack this thing. In PvP, Master of Fragmentation will be better definitely as it enhances all your shatters, and not just your damage.
… but this trait is way too overpowered and doesn’t fit the name of Phantasmal Force. If they’re gonna make a trait like this, they should probably just let all main Mesmer modifiers affect Phantasms, like Force Sigil, Fragility, Superiority Complex affect Phantasms, but that sudden change would really make Mesmer broken in PvE content lol.
Mirage DPS HYPE
No, the trait would affect phantasms. It would be on you though so that you don’t lose all those stacks when you shatter, allowing you to summon new phantasms who will have the +25% damage off the bat.
Never said that it didn’t affect Phantasms. It’s OP because a 25% overall damage buff is way too good.
Mirage DPS HYPE
maybe first try to think which phantasm can play with phantasm build
if they get kill in 3 sec what is the point?
in phantasm build they need more health, more resistance to dmg to be more effective
so maybe PF can be like this. your phantasm get more hp for every stack and do more dmg. for each attack they gain might, protection and aegis
thus if you shatter them with PoM the boons will transfer to you
with PI 20% more hp, PF 25% more hp, and SoI 50% hp illusion you can start to think to build phantasm build with sustain dmg.
Might does nothing for Phantasms, their health is already increased in PvE and can be further increased in any game mode with Signet of Illusions. I don’t think making it a mixture of offense and defense is the solution. Honestly, PF is fine the way it is, but it does draw attention to the huge can of worms that is our class mechanic (Shatters).
Never said that it didn’t affect Phantasms. It’s OP because a 25% overall damage buff is way too good.
What are you going on about? The effect is already in the game and we can already trait for it yet its clearly not OP or everyone would have been crying about it. I’m not trying to buff the trait, just make it more consistent and make shattering hurt your sustained dps less.
I think you’re confused. I am not proposing that the mesmer also get the 25% damage buff. I only want the effect on mesmer, to affect all illusions that you summon, so that when you shatter or when an illusion is killed and you have to resummon it, you can resummon them with full stacks right away instead of waiting for the stacks to build up on each phantasm individually.
If you read my initial comment and understood it, you would see I understood your proposal clearly. The stacks are moved to the Mesmer instead of the Phantasms and the effect affects the Mesmer and the Phantasms. That’s why I said specifically it would also even help out Chrono since Chronophantasma would work well with this new PF.
I said it’s really OP since no other class has a 25% overall damage buff. I guess Tempest Defense and most execution trait has a 20% damage buff (Think Close to Death and similar traits) but those are conditional and can never have 100% upkeep even in PvE. Lowering it to 15% would still make it a DPS buff over the old PF and it would still shift the power from Phantasms to the Mesmer. Just saying no other trait has 100% uptime with a large modifier as 25%.
Edit: Rereading your initial post. It’s quite unclear whether the effect affects the Mesmer or not. Then I read your last comment, yeah you make it clearer that you only want the effect on Mesmer but it doesn’t affect them. Sorry about that.
Mirage DPS HYPE
(edited by Refia Montes.3205)
Gives us a reason to shatter and its a personal buff we gotta upkeep. Me likes it. The only downside i see is what if you cant relly go hit the boss or w/e to build up those stacks will the phantasms hit like a wet noodle or both phtansms and you can build them?
(edited by zealex.9410)
If you read my initial comment and understood it, you would see I understood your proposal clearly. The stacks are moved to the Mesmer instead of the Phantasms and the effect affects the Mesmer and the Phantasms. That’s why I said specifically it would also even help out Chrono since Chronophantasma would work well with this new PF.
I said it’s really OP since no other class has a 25% overall damage buff. I guess Tempest Defense and most execution trait has a 20% damage buff (Think Close to Death and similar traits) but those are conditional and can never have 100% upkeep even in PvE. Lowering it to 15% would still make it a DPS buff over the old PF and it would still shift the power from Phantasms to the Mesmer. Just saying no other trait has 100% uptime with a large modifier as 25%.
Edit: Rereading your initial post. It’s quite unclear whether the effect affects the Mesmer or not. Then I read your last comment, yeah you make it clearer that you only want the effect on Mesmer but it doesn’t affect them. Sorry about that.
I think ori means that instead of the pantasm attacks building the stacks instead you do an your shatters so a new phantasm wont have to aa and w8 for how long to start doing dmg. You dont get a dmg buff the dmg is the same its just that now you dont lose as much if you shatter and new pantasms arent a dps loss.
I think you are completely missing whats he/she is suggesting.
I think Refia got what I meant, read his edit. I made an edit on the original post to try to clear up confusion for others reading this thread.
As to your question Zealex, both shattering illusions and gaining might stacks will add more stacks of phantasmal force to you (5 per illusion shattered, and 1 per might stack gained). You have a few optionsto build it with that. You could be in an organized group who will hit 25 might stacks and have max phantasmal force .You could just summon a bunch of clones and shatter them quickly to build your own stacks, and then summon phantasms, or you could generate your own might if you don’t care about building PF all that quickly.
I’m not trying to trivialize the buildup, I still think you should work for it. I just want to see the buildup not be wasted because you had to shatter, or your phantasm was killed.
I’m not trying to trivialize the buildup, I still think you should work for it. I just want to see the buildup not be wasted because you had to shatter, or your phantasm was killed.
Tbh, I think that’s the point of the trait. If it was on Might gained, you’d hit max stacks nearly instantly between Swordsman 8might and PS Warriors (heck, even Guard mightshare). When PoF hits, Kalla Revs will be dropping Might, too.
It’s actually pretty fair in its current state. Sure, it doesn’t mesh well with Shattering, but I don’t think we should embrace shatters with (all) our traits. If you did Shatter, you’d still lose a lot of DPS, even if PF was on the Mesmer not the Phantasms. There’s still the cast time to bring more back up and honestly there’s usually a choice between Shatter and Non-Shatter in traits. This is the non-shatter with DE being the shatter choice and Inep being in between (paired with Blinding Dissipation, it becomes a shatter trait, otherwise it’s just more condi damage).
In PvE, phantasm management isn’t really a thing as it’s usually do and forget, but that’s why this trait is so good. It completely acknowledges that and allows you to utilize that. If they changed it, your rotation would end up being based on your Phantasm attack timer more than anything else (spawn new Phant as soon as oldest is done attacking). Sure, it opens up the skill ceiling, but it also adds complex work to a trivial setting.
I would go even further and do it like this:
- For each clone shattered, +1% damage for 60 seconds.
- For each phantasm shattered, +5% damage for 60 seconds.
- Affects the mesmer and phantasms.
- Shattering clones recharges phantasm CDs by 1-2 seconds.
The strength of heart to face oneself has been made manifest. The persona Carighan has appeared.
I would go even further and do it like this:
- For each clone shattered, +1% damage for 60 seconds.
- For each phantasm shattered, +5% damage for 60 seconds.
- Affects the mesmer and phantasms.
- Shattering clones recharges phantasm CDs by 1-2 seconds.
Hahaha, you’re funny. There’s a reason a weaker version of that was nerfed (and later removed) from Persistence of Memory and it’s because you could infinitely negate damage via Shield4 + Sword2 + F4 (and a few other trait synergies).
I like this suggestion a lot, I don’t understand the comments on how or why this would be OP?
Even if you let us ramp up faster, and reduce how quickly we have to re-ramp, our DPS is still not great compared to everyone else; it’s just easier, less fickle, and ultimately would be a much more fun way to do the exact same job we already do.
Did you mean to “only” increase to the duration of the phantasm’s conditions?
If so that might be fine. Otherwise I’d object for PvP.
“I control time and space; you can’t break free.~”
“Maybe I was the illusion all along!”
“Maybe I was the illusion all along!”
I like this suggestion a lot, I don’t understand the comments on how or why this would be OP?
our DPS is still not great compared to everyone else
I would like to disagree.
https://dps.report/tnxQ-20170904-033401_vg
https://dps.report/Y1z2-20170904-040428_sab
https://dps.report/Tks7-20170904-042921_sloth
https://dps.report/982G-20170904-045637_matt
https://dps.report/jBKB-20170904-161318_mo
https://dps.report/6Pt0-20170904-181134_cairn
https://dps.report/ddED-20170904-183203_mo
https://dps.report/TNRo-20170904-203213_xera
I’m not saying those numbers are wrong, but I would like to see them from someone else’s perspective just for confirmation. DPS counters have a tendency to miss damage dealt from other players.
I’m not saying those numbers are wrong, but I would like to see them from someone else’s perspective just for confirmation. DPS counters have a tendency to miss damage dealt from other players.
That’s somewhat irrelevant when trying to see how much DPS a Mesmer can achieve.
However, if you want to see fight averages based on uploaded evtc’s, then:
https://www.gw2raidar.com/encounter/PreviouslyLimbsYellDreamtAsset
https://www.gw2raidar.com/encounter/SearchNominatedBowedMovedDemanded
https://www.gw2raidar.com/encounter/TrailRevelationsExaminationsInduceYeah
https://www.gw2raidar.com/encounter/SpoilsWarmsDrawsAirportUnlike
https://www.gw2raidar.com/encounter/ComplyFinancesHipSistersAutomatically
https://www.gw2raidar.com/encounter/GreetedCustomerTrickAcquisitionNearest
https://www.gw2raidar.com/encounter/SubstitutedTruthLogicalClassSlim
Blue and small numbers are averages, whereas the green/big numbers are run-stats.
Hahaha, you’re funny. There’s a reason a weaker version of that was nerfed (and later removed) from Persistence of Memory and it’s because you could infinitely negate damage via Shield4 + Sword2 + F4 (and a few other trait synergies).
And? All you’re doing is causing ignorable clone shatter damage. I fail to see the problem, powerful spec choices, if you want to be a nigh-invulnerable juggernaut brought down only by CC (and the 145356375653423 unblockable attacks in the game by now), then so be it.
The strength of heart to face oneself has been made manifest. The persona Carighan has appeared.
Hahaha, you’re funny. There’s a reason a weaker version of that was nerfed (and later removed) from Persistence of Memory and it’s because you could infinitely negate damage via Shield4 + Sword2 + F4 (and a few other trait synergies).
And? All you’re doing is causing ignorable clone shatter damage. I fail to see the problem, powerful spec choices, if you want to be a nigh-invulnerable juggernaut brought down only by CC (and the 145356375653423 unblockable attacks in the game by now), then so be it.
It trivializes PvE encounters and there may be a large pool of unblockable attacks, but most people don’t have access to a constant stream of them. Additionally, you have invuln as a panic button and BF as extra evasion.
The spec revolved around the free phantasm from Mental Defense along with having Echo of Memory’s cooldown tick after the first phantasm was summoned (regardless of the second being cast or not).
Tossing in clone shatters makes it even easier to pull off as you can use a lot more weapon skills to ensure phantasms are coming out.
Considering that the trait is already a powerful damage buff as is, I don’t think it’s necessary to rework or even buff it. I would say that it would be nice to buff Phant condition damage, but that would involve a rework as to how phant conditions are sourced (currently, only the strike itself is sourced on Phants, the conditions applied are sourced by the mesmer).
I know how well power Mesmer is performing post balance update. I agree that the suggested changes to this trait are unnecessary.
You shouldn’t be out-performing the other DPS by such a large margin, though. It appears as though your DPS meter is not picking up all the data.
I know how well power Mesmer is performing post balance update. I agree that the suggested changes to this trait are unnecessary.
You shouldn’t be out-performing the other DPS by such a large margin, though. It appears as though your DPS meter is not picking up all the data.
In most encounters, you need to ramp up (summon phants, build up adrenalin/rage, precast overloads, etc). However, there are many encounters where you can ignore this as a Mesmer and hold the same 3 Phantasms up for the entire fight (VG, Sloth, KC, Sab) which allows you to have peak DPS (assuming buffs are being spread to you) at all times.
Additionally, ~40% of your DPS is always hitting, which means if you go down, need to move, or have to focus on a mechanic, you’re still hitting for 40% of your DPS whereas other classes are sometimes doing nothing.
And on fights like Sloth where he goes to sleep, he also dispels all conditions on him, which eats pretty heavily into condition damage output, whereas the Phantasms are still out and ready to continue the punishment when he wakes up.
@Mikkel – That’s the thing though, this doesn’t ultimately buff power mesmer at all. It just lowers the re-ramp up time, it allows you to pop off a shatter and not lose all that buildup for PF. It doesn’t buff power mesmer at all, just allows it to use its class mechanic with a smaller penalty.
@Carrighan – Not gonna lie, I’d love to see mesmers personal damage get buffed by 25%, but I also am realistic and that’s a HUGE buff. I don’t think its reasonable to ask for that. I also think that shattering clones and phantasms should give the same # of stacks (5 each), after all we’d still have to shatter 5 illusions to hit 25 stacks even with 5 stacks granted per illusion unless we are getting pumped full of might.
I know how well power Mesmer is performing post balance update. I agree that the suggested changes to this trait are unnecessary.
You shouldn’t be out-performing the other DPS by such a large margin, though. It appears as though your DPS meter is not picking up all the data.
In most encounters, you need to ramp up (summon phants, build up adrenalin/rage, precast overloads, etc). However, there are many encounters where you can ignore this as a Mesmer and hold the same 3 Phantasms up for the entire fight (VG, Sloth, KC, Sab) which allows you to have peak DPS (assuming buffs are being spread to you) at all times.
Additionally, ~40% of your DPS is always hitting, which means if you go down, need to move, or have to focus on a mechanic, you’re still hitting for 40% of your DPS whereas other classes are sometimes doing nothing.
And on fights like Sloth where he goes to sleep, he also dispels all conditions on him, which eats pretty heavily into condition damage output, whereas the Phantasms are still out and ready to continue the punishment when he wakes up.
This is a pretty reasonable argument.
But the problem remains that at least half of our shatters feel bad to use.
Maybe our damage post patch is better and I may have overstated my claim earlier.
However even if we can say the output we currently do is relatively balanced in the context of the content, and we are able to achieve this with a fully supported group; given it’s very restrictive, and kind of limited(?) nature, why would reducing the unwieldy re-ramp be such a big deal? Why is that OP?
OP’s suggestion nets the same thing just less restrictive.
We cannot re-summon without dropping DPS, we cannot create a clone without dropping DPS, both of which take up half our weapon slot skills (excluding auto attack), and as established we cannot shatter without losing our DPS… So all we can do is drop wells? Frankly this seems like poor design.
If our current possible supported output is OP then balance needs to be done sure, but actively removing counter intuitive design isn’t a bad thing and would just make playing it more fun.
“I control time and space; you can’t break free.~”
“Maybe I was the illusion all along!”
“Maybe I was the illusion all along!”
This is a pretty reasonable argument.
But the problem remains that at least half of our shatters feel bad to use.
Maybe our damage post patch is better and I may have overstated my claim earlier.
However even if we can say the output we currently do is relatively balanced in the context of the content, and we are able to achieve this with a fully supported group; given it’s very restrictive, and kind of limited(?) nature, why would reducing the unwieldy re-ramp be such a big deal? Why is that OP?
OP’s suggestion nets the same thing just less restrictive.We cannot re-summon without dropping DPS, we cannot create a clone without dropping DPS, both of which take up half our weapon slot skills (excluding auto attack), and as established we cannot shatter without losing our DPS… So all we can do is drop wells? Frankly this seems like poor design.
If our current possible supported output is OP then balance needs to be done sure, but actively removing counter intuitive design isn’t a bad thing and would just make playing it more fun.
That’s a separate issue, though, and more in line with the flaws of core mesmer design than a trait. I don’t think we should look towards a power/damage trait to compensate for a core class flaw, especially if it’s in the core class.
I’m not saying that shatters don’t feel bad (and yeah, they feel especially bad in raids when you lose 40% of your dps), but Phantasmal Force isn’t the place you should look to compensate for that. Maybe Master of Fragmentation?
This change woudla llow for the use of shatters and it would prob make a dps chrono viable as well so yeah the dps will go up by a small bit because of the shatter dmg so what?
DPS Chrono is viable. The numbers I can hit with Power Mesmer can be achieved with a Power Chrono. The difference is you have more strict utilities and the only shatter you use is F5 to speed up initial ramp time.
@Esplen – That’s the heart of the problem though…… To get even a semi decent DPS build we have to ignore our F skills. Why are so many people ok with that?
@Esplen – That’s the heart of the problem though…… To get even a semi decent DPS build we have to ignore our F skills. Why are so many people ok with that?
Your idea of changing PF to make Shatters worthwhile avoids the core issue and slaps a bandaid on. I get it, you want a trait to fix the Shatters instead of the Shatters getting fixed themselves. But you don’t stack more mechanics onto an already powerful trait. That’s how you get nerfed, and Anet doesn’t ever really nerf us in small portions. If you want Shatters to get fixed through a trait, there are Shatter Grandmasters that don’t do a lot.
However, that still avoids the issue of Shatters being counterproductive. And, you know, maybe we’ll have to wait for an Elite spec to do that for us, but until then, you shouldn’t tack utility and damage onto an already powerful trait.
Just because I disagree with your proposal does not mean I think that Shatters are in a good place.
I think that you misunderstand what I’m proposing more so than anything else. First, I have to say that I want shatters and the illusion mechanic fundamentally changed. Yet I am also realistic about what we have a chance at getting. Changing the class mechanics at a core level would basically mean redoing the entire class from the ground up. Almost all of our skills and traits would have to be redone, and this only gets more and more complicated and time consuming the more elite specs we get (more skills and more traitlines, on top of new mechanics). At this point I doubt we will ever get the fundamental change that our mechanic needs.
This proposal came about as a way to just lessen the downsides to using a shatter in a phantasm build. Its not supposed to increase our DPS. Its not supposed to make shatters good. Its not adding more mechanics, just changing how the current mechanics of the trait work. Its definitely not changing the fact that shatters are counterproductive.
The only point of this suggestion is to lessen the harm that shattering does to mesmers. The benefits of shattering will never replace the DPS/utility/open world PvE aggro tanking that our illusions provide, ever. The least we can get is for shatters to be less harmful to our sustained DPS then.
Plus, think about open world PvE for a second. Having PF be on the mesmer himself allows you to kill a group of mobs, then summon a new phantasm on a new mob that already has the full 25% damage modification from PF. BOOM! It instantly improves our ability to change targets, since we can change targets with full powered phantasms. This suggestion is not meant to do anything except lessen the negative aspects of shattering for mesmers in a variety of situations. It is NOT intended to fix the self defeating mechanic that we have. And I think that a few people are caught up about that, and aren’t understand what this proposal is for.
I think that you misunderstand what I’m proposing more so than anything else. First, I have to say that I want shatters and the illusion mechanic fundamentally changed. Yet I am also realistic about what we have a chance at getting. Changing the class mechanics at a core level would basically mean redoing the entire class from the ground up. Almost all of our skills and traits would have to be redone, and this only gets more and more complicated and time consuming the more elite specs we get (more skills and more traitlines, on top of new mechanics). At this point I doubt we will ever get the fundamental change that our mechanic needs.
Sure, let’s go with this. A realistic approach at a change, but what change do you want?
This proposal came about as a way to just lessen the downsides to using a shatter in a phantasm build. Its not supposed to increase our DPS. Its not supposed to make shatters good. Its not adding more mechanics, just changing how the current mechanics of the trait work. Its definitely not changing the fact that shatters are counterproductive.
Holy mother of contradictions. You want to use shatters in a phantasm build without increasing dps and also not make shatters good. Um… ok.
The only point of this suggestion is to lessen the harm that shattering does to mesmers. The benefits of shattering will never replace the DPS/utility/open world PvE aggro tanking that our illusions provide, ever. The least we can get is for shatters to be less harmful to our sustained DPS then.
Uhhhh… what is going on here. If you’re running a Phantasm build, you shouldn’t be using Shatters. Ever. If you do, for whatever reason, use a Shatter, you know the cost of it and do so willingly. So I don’t see what you’re aiming at.
Plus, think about open world PvE for a second. Having PF be on the mesmer himself allows you to kill a group of mobs, then summon a new phantasm on a new mob that already has the full 25% damage modification from PF. BOOM! It instantly improves our ability to change targets, since we can change targets with full powered phantasms. This suggestion is not meant to do anything except lessen the negative aspects of shattering for mesmers in a variety of situations. It is NOT intended to fix the self defeating mechanic that we have. And I think that a few people are caught up about that, and aren’t understand what this proposal is for.
Having a Phant build on a Mesmer in open world is useless unless you’re killing World Bosses, Legendaries, Champions, and a few niche other fights. That’s due to ramp times and it will be the same regardless of what you do with Shatters.
Your points are contradictory. You’re too caught up in the idea of what you want the class to be.
Modifying a Phantasm oriented trait to accommodate Shattering is a silly notion in and of itself especially when we have weak Shatter-based traits (including GM’s).
If you play Mesmer in PvE, you should be constantly changing your build, not just between Raids and Dungeons, but also between each encounter. When I run Arah, I swap my build ~5 times a path, not counting minor changes like swapping Majors. This includes utilities.
Mesmer is a reactive class, meaning you should be watching mechanics and paying attention to attacks to appropriately counter them. Sometimes that involves using Shatters, sometimes it doesn’t. But if you are going to use a Shatter to counter a mechanic, you know the risk when doing so (which is typically where Chrono boonbot shines because they can shatter without worrying about losing DPS, since they have none).
In PvE, Shatters are not used for damage. They are used to finish off enemies for that final “burst” (which against sponges is pretty wimpy). They are used to finish breakbars if you’re lacking CC (which shouldn’t, but does, happen). They are used as a panic button (and panic buttons should be punishing).
If you want to Shatter, that’s great, focus on a Shatter trait. If you want to play a Phant build, that’s great, use Phant traits. If you want to merge them, then you’re both contradicting core Mesmer functions and being unrealistic.
Uhhhh… what is going on here. If you’re running a Phantasm build, you shouldn’t be using Shatters. Ever. If you do, for whatever reason, use a Shatter, you know the cost of it and do so willingly. So I don’t see what you’re aiming at.
This is the kittening problem! why do you refuse to acknowledge that? We are the only class that is actively punished by using our own mechanic. Warriors aren’t punished for using adrenaline. Revs’ aren’t punished for switching legends. Guards aren’t punished for using their virtues. Thieves aren’t punished for using steal. Engis aren’t punished for using toolbelt skills. Rangers aren’t punished for using their pet. Eles aren’t punished for swapping attunements. Necros aren’t punished for using shroud. Yet mesmer IS punished for using our shatters.
Literally all I’m proposing is to try to lessen that punishment for builds running PF. And you are being an ass because you refuse to acknowledge the problem that mesmer is the only class, literally the only class, that is actively PUNISHED for using its class mechanic. Stop trolling this thread.
Warriors actually used to be punished for using Adrenaline, until ANet decided it was silly that you got more damage sitting at full Adrenaline than using Burst skills, so Burst skills got buffed slightly and the trait that buffed holding Adrenaline got nerfed.
Guardians arguably are punished for using their virtues as it’s the equivalent of using a Signet. There is a trait that allow the use of spamming F1 (Virtue of Justice) but it involves killing an enemy, so it’s only really spammable in PvE. Technically, it’s better to not use most of your Virtues and just hold them, with the exception of F3 as a panic button. This is further incentivized with Virtue traits, as many traits buff the passive effects without equally buffing the actives.
Rangers are punished for using their pet. They have significantly lower damage than most other classes and have been low on the damage scale for a very long time. Condition Ranger became a thing due to stat availability and old trait revamps that finally managed to synergize. It has actually been nerfed in terms of damage output and is now a not-so-great choice. And they also have to deal with a pet mechanic like Illusions. Sure, they can’t shatter it, but if it dies, they have to weapon swap it (and if it’s on cd, sucks to be them).
Necros are punished for entering shroud. It depends on the game mode, but in PvE you usually double tap shroud and maybe use one or two fast abilities. As a Reaper, there’s more incentive to stay in shroud, but that’s not sustainable because you don’t generate enough Life Force to maintain high shroud uptimes.
Most classes have reasons to and not to use their mechanics. Not all builds need to use every tool available to them.
Disagreeing with an opinion and point of view is not trolling. If you want to have a discussion, discuss.
Thank you for proving my point. Warriors used to get punished for using adrenaline. Used to. Then Anet acknowledged that is a kittenty way to have a mechanic designed and fixed it.
Guardians are not punished for using their virtues. Whether the passives are better than using the active effects is an issue, but guards are not punished for using virtues. They aren’t losing 40%+ for a prolonged period of time of their DPS by using them.
Rangers are in no way punished by using their pet. I mean you even argue that yourself when you point out how much of their damage comes from teh pet instead of the ranger…. Not sure what else you’re trying to accomplish with the rest of that paragraph. Part of being a ranger is managing your pet so they don’t die, but you are in no way punished by using pets. You are punished by not using them though.
Necros are not punished by entering shroud. Like you said, the enter shroud, use their 1 or 2 skills, and leave it again. They don’t lose their minions if running a minion build. They don’t lose 40%+ of their damage when entering shroud. They certainly don’t rely on 1 weapon skill coming off of CD up to twice in order to get back to full DPS (assuming we don’t run SoE we have to cast a phantasm, wait for weapon skill CD, cast again, wait for CD again, cast it a third time).
The only thing you got right is that most classes have situations where they do and don’t want to use their mechanics. But so far you have yet to refute the fact that mesmer is the only class that is actively punished for using our mechanic. And its no small punishment. Its a huge punishment on our DPS, that lasts a long kittening time. And PF, for as good as it is against large HP single targets, just makes that worse, because it means we are losing an even larger portion of our DPS when we shatter, since our phantasms loose all those stacks.
Why do you continue to insist that other classes are hampered to anywhere near the level mesmer is by their class mechanics? They aren’t. Plain and simple.
Why do you continue to insist that other classes are hampered to anywhere near the level mesmer is by their class mechanics? They aren’t. Plain and simple.
I never said that.
Well, Eles are punished for going into Water and Earth in PvE. Being punished is subjective.
Anyways, Shatter=Stacks is kinda icky for me…. and not to mention there’s a duration tied to it. Also I only thought it was OP cause I thought we’re also applying 25% damage to the Mesmer itself. My mistake there.
I do see its use though mostly with Chronophantasma.
Mirage DPS HYPE
I’m with Refia that “punished” is subjective.
But I think we all agree that the “punishment” doesn’t fit the crime?
40% drop isn’t exactly a fair trade for the first two shatters. Although, I do agree with the “Panic Button” from distortion, and to a lesser degree break bar damage from diversion should come at a cost.
But much like warrior getting max adrenaline and sitting there, that is the exact situation we have now.
I agree that if you want to spec for shatters you should be able to, but making shatters viable PvE is going to be hard, and I doubt A-net would rework them to do it.
Unless we either passively gain illusions at little to no cost like thief ini, or like hitting/getting hit like warrior, or perhhaps spend them a lot slower as a resource like: one illusion = full shatter effect. Which as Esplen mentioned could be added through a shatter based trait. It is doubtful a power based buff to mind wrack, or cry of confusion will ever be worth while compared to phantasms…
(Unless maybe you give them enough baseline utility or functionality so the cost is going into something other than damage, which is why distortion doesn’t feel as bad in PvE.)
So assuming we are staying phantasm regardless, I don’t think it’s reasonable to tell us to never use our F skills, and half our weapon skills, and it be called “fine”.
In addition, even if you can argue that other classes are (subjectively) punished for using their class mechanic, none are punished for using their weapons skills. Which OP’s suggestion would fix.
The idea that you can Illusionary leap for whatever reason, or illusionary riposte, lose 25 stacks, then re-summon, to then have to re-ramp the one phantasm again is pretty unacceptable to me. Losing the phantasm until you have to resummon it should be enough “punishment” for that action, and is a “punishment” on par with what everyone else has to give up for an action.
“I control time and space; you can’t break free.~”
“Maybe I was the illusion all along!”
“Maybe I was the illusion all along!”
(edited by Daishi.6027)
You can riposte without spawning the clone, by the way. You can’t, however, use Lingering Thoughts without reliably not spawning the clone.
I’m with Refia that “punished” is subjective.
But I think we all agree that the “punishment” doesn’t fit the crime?
40% drop isn’t exactly a fair trade for the first two shatters. Although, I do agree with the “Panic Button” from distortion, and to a lesser degree break bar damage from diversion should come at a cost.
But much like warrior getting max adrenaline and sitting there, that is the exact situation we have now.
I agree that if you want to spec for shatters you should be able to, but making shatters viable PvE is going to be hard, and I doubt A-net would rework them to do it.
Unless we either passively gain illusions at little to no cost like thief ini, or like hitting/getting hit like warrior, or perhhaps spend them a lot slower as a resource like: one illusion = full shatter effect. Which as Esplen mentioned could be added through a shatter based trait. It is doubtful a power based buff to mind wrack, or cry of confusion will ever be worth while compared to phantasms…
(Unless maybe you give them enough baseline utility or functionality so the cost is going into something other than damage, which is why distortion doesn’t feel as bad in PvE.)So assuming we are staying phantasm regardless, I don’t think it’s reasonable to tell us to never use our F skills, and half our weapon skills, and it be called “fine”.
In addition, even if you can argue that other classes are (subjectively) punished for using their class mechanic, none are punished for using their weapons skills. Which OP’s suggestion would fix.
The idea that you can Illusionary leap for whatever reason, or illusionary riposte, lose 25 stacks, then re-summon, to then have to re-ramp the one phantasm again is pretty unacceptable to me. Losing the phantasm until you have to resummon it should be enough “punishment” for that action, and is a “punishment” on par with what everyone else has to give up for an action.
^ this pretty much. This might “band aid” the problem but its ultimately fixes it for 1 build.
I think this change would be absolutely fantastic and would make phantasms way more fun to play with, it might also get me to actually drop master of fragmentation for a different grand master without just feeling awful for doing it.
They sing dark, delicious notes about power and family.
As their mother, I have to grant them their wish. – Forever Fyonna
As their mother, I have to grant them their wish. – Forever Fyonna