Guild Wars 2

boroguy.5690:

Not to mention, first the mesmer must successfully land the attack. Then the phantasm must survive long enough to attack. Finally, the phantasm must land the attacks on a target that is in range and not blocking, dodging, or invulnerable. Other professions must only worry about landing the attack, and many of those skills are even more “powerful”.

Apples and Telephones.
Other classes’ attacks don’t cycle every 6 seconds on their own.

wads.5730:

wtf are you arguing for, its been stated that the damage is a bug, and the attack delay is also going to be fixed.

just wait for the fix.

The guy was further justifying how the skill wasn’t as powerful as a few others are making it out to be.

Carighan.6758:

boroguy.5690:

Not to mention, first the mesmer must successfully land the attack. Then the phantasm must survive long enough to attack. Finally, the phantasm must land the attacks on a target that is in range and not blocking, dodging, or invulnerable. Other professions must only worry about landing the attack, and many of those skills are even more “powerful”.

Apples and Telephones.
Other classes’ attacks don’t cycle every 6 seconds on their own.

I disagree with the idea that phantasms should either. I think they should be decoupled from our illusion counter and vanish after the first attack.

Anyone who knows what they’re doing, any boss who sneezes kills it.

So apparently we’re being “balanced” around the idea that our opponents are too stupid to sneeze in the general direction of our phantasms until 3 of them are up, then leave them there for the duration of a fight.

Even big, stupid dragons who stand around waiting to be killed by the giant asura lasers do enough to kill phantasms.

plasmacutter.2709:

Carighan.6758:

boroguy.5690:

Not to mention, first the mesmer must successfully land the attack. Then the phantasm must survive long enough to attack. Finally, the phantasm must land the attacks on a target that is in range and not blocking, dodging, or invulnerable. Other professions must only worry about landing the attack, and many of those skills are even more “powerful”.

Apples and Telephones.
Other classes’ attacks don’t cycle every 6 seconds on their own.

I disagree with the idea that phantasms should either. I think they should be decoupled from our illusion counter and vanish after the first attack.

Anyone who knows what they’re doing, any boss who sneezes kills it.

So apparently we’re being “balanced” around the idea that our opponents are too stupid to sneeze in the general direction of our phantasms until 3 of them are up, then leave them there for the duration of a fight.

Even big, stupid dragons who stand around waiting to be killed by the giant asura lasers do enough to kill phantasms.

I think I have to agree with this one. The majority of phantasms don’t make it passed their first swings, they shouldn’t be balanced around the fact that they can. Heck, I’d say to go one step further and rather than keeping them as “pets” just make them a graphical effect of an attack instead. Use greatsword 4 and it animates as an illusion spinning and cutting the enemy rather than spawning a pet that then spins through the enemy.

I’m more in-line with making phantasms a non-shatterable pet with higher health whose cooldown begins when they die. I know there’s a ton of numbers issues with this that would have to be worked out for each individual phantasm, but as many others have said so far – our phantasms often get one shot out before they die and they have been consistently toned down since launch.

Making it so we have one phantasm at a time at all times with adjusted damage is better than feeling like we’re wasting a ~10s CD every time we touch it. They are obvious targets with low health in PvP as it is, what really changes if they’re “permanent”. We technically lose an “attack” button, they’re not shatter-able, and they’re still easily targetable. This way, however, we can plan ways to use it to our advantage instead of “hoping” it doesn’t die immediately after being summoned.

Still curious as to when this fix is going to take place because at this moment I cannot stand playing this class. It was working fine before with no delay on phantasms. It doesn’t provide an insane advantage to have their attacks go off instantly. If phantasms continue to have a delay you essentially eliminate 1 skill per weapon choice also I would go even further to say at least 1/3 of our dmg output in a fight depending on how many phantasms you have going. I have several builds available on my mesmer (gear wise) and literally all of them are affected by this because it isn’t a broken utility skill or a broken trait. It is a broken skill on a main hand/off hand weapon which cripples any build out there. I mean honestly this is how players get frustrated with games when class crippling bugs persist. I have heard “we are looking into this” and things of that nature but I have also heard things like “delay is intended” and I am losing faith that this issue will be handled properly. We were balanced before the last few updates, when the delay was non existent and the dmg was there. Now the dmg has been greatly reduced since november and this last patch has made it worse with the delay. Phantasm dmg is part of our overall dmg and when we lose that it cripples the class.

The other small beef I have is with confusion’s dmg being reduced in sPvP. Why? It is a condition the same as any other…. you can remove it… dodge roll to avoid skills that can apply it…or not use skills while its applied. If it is too powerful of a condition then why is it not reduced in dmg in WvW? It doesn’t make sense to me. I am a big fan of confusion builds in general but because of the poor dmg it does in structured it essentially rules out a condition build there.

On the whole I know I am not convinced that Mesmers will be restored to normalcy upon when a fix is finally implemented. I know plenty of others have the same concern with some of the comments that have been coming out about these issues.

Gilaborn.2461:

Still curious as to when this fix is going to take place because at this moment I cannot stand playing this class. It was working fine before with no delay on phantasms. It doesn’t provide an insane advantage to have their attacks go off instantly. If phantasms continue to have a delay you essentially eliminate 1 skill per weapon choice also I would go even further to say at least 1/3 of our dmg output in a fight depending on how many phantasms you have going. I have several builds available on my mesmer (gear wise) and literally all of them are affected by this because it isn’t a broken utility skill or a broken trait. It is a broken skill on a main hand/off hand weapon which cripples any build out there. I mean honestly this is how players get frustrated with games when class crippling bugs persist. I have heard “we are looking into this” and things of that nature but I have also heard things like “delay is intended” and I am losing faith that this issue will be handled properly. We were balanced before the last few updates, when the delay was non existent and the dmg was there. Now the dmg has been greatly reduced since november and this last patch has made it worse with the delay. Phantasm dmg is part of our overall dmg and when we lose that it cripples the class.

The other small beef I have is with confusion’s dmg being reduced in sPvP. Why? It is a condition the same as any other…. you can remove it… dodge roll to avoid skills that can apply it…or not use skills while its applied. If it is too powerful of a condition then why is it not reduced in dmg in WvW? It doesn’t make sense to me. I am a big fan of confusion builds in general but because of the poor dmg it does in structured it essentially rules out a condition build there.

On the whole I know I am not convinced that Mesmers will be restored to normalcy upon when a fix is finally implemented. I know plenty of others have the same concern with some of the comments that have been coming out about these issues.

Anet, I sure hope you’re listening. If you don’t fix this, I’m done. I have no interest in the other classes and I know I’m not the only one. In one fell swoop, you’ve broken an entire class. I suffered through the stream of nerfs leading up to this, but this is it. THIS CLASS IS NO LONGER FUN TO PLAY.

You guys are really optimistic, believing a-net will fix the mesmer back to the state of before 15th of Nov. For those believers, good luck. If there is a problem with putting the delay under 0.25sec, then why does the mariner skills still works properly without delay?

They had time enough to fix the ibezerker bug but it´s still unsolved, leaving the class with the Dez 3th patch more broken than it ever was. The answers given by JP only shows up how unaware of the mesmer a-net must be when he asks us in a statement, how big the damage output of ibezerker was before the patch in Nov? No documentation made?

The argument that the delay shall give opponents the chance to react is ridiculous, cause the damage of the ibezerker was never so high to be a problem with. On the other hand, when ibezerker is so powerful, then why 100blades or heartseeker has no delay implemented? It makes much more damage and works instantly. Is the fact that LoS or being blinded not enough to avoid the damage, now my phantasm must first knocks on the door, here i am? Dodge now! Mesmers must be really a pain in the a** for a-net dealing the class this way.

Oh yeah, but i´m a great supporter and shattercat. First LoS, then decreasing dmg of ibezerker and now delay of phantasms, whats next? But i have my ultimate solution of that problem found. I´m out.

With the logic of having said phantams delayed before their (previously powerful and reliable) attack, you may as well give Thieves a delay when they come out of stealth so their victim has a chance to say, “Wow, you really are sneaky, ok now continue attacking.” Still that’s a small argument compared to how GS for mesmer used to be a very definitive form of dps that was dependable. And now the devs seem to have turned it into a weaker version of itself that has the chance of not doing damage at all. By what logic would make someone want to continue to use GS over any other mesmer weapon now? Is there any incentive left at all or by the chance that iberserker might actually hit and snare someone?

Anet seems to be wanting to make iberserker seem like an intimidating attack, but taking away all it’s bite. It’s gone from just a damage problem to being constantly patched or broken. It’s just insulting and I no longer care what it’s intended to do. I would just like some consistency on Anets part in how mesmer is supposed to work. Stop giving us toys you don’t want to play with. Either take it away and stop teasing us or settle on something.

Sadly I went back to leveling my ranger for now. It isn’t much better but at least ranger never really had anything noticably good for Anet to destroy.

Cercie.1025:

Sadly I went back to leveling my ranger for now. It isn’t much better but at least ranger never really had anything noticably good for Anet to destroy.

^
This really is the saddest thing I have heard in awhile.

Keep up the comments guys. Between this thread and the other ones just like it maybe we can break 1000 posts on this subject before the 14th.

The only upside to being forced into mesmer ranged weapons is that I get to laugh against foes that stand like a deer in headlights when your ranged phantasms come out. The 1 in 10 that don’t actually just come and kill them that is.

I truly don’t understand the logic in making phantasms have a delay in their attacks. First of all, there are already easy methods to avoid phantasms now, starting with limiting phantasm generation: Blind, dodge, aegis will all prevent a phantasms from even spawning. Whereas if a warrior uses hundred blades, the first blow is merely nullified and the rest of the attack lands. Secondly, phantasms can be destroyed. A staff guardian can autoattack, destroying all illusions that may be on route for a shatter. Thirdly, no other profession has their attacks pre-displayed. Let me put this in warrior terms again. Imagine you’re playing a warrior and a banner appears above your head every time you use hundred blades to indicate what you are doing. Not only that, but you must now suffer a delay in your attack. It makes no sense to cripple a single profession like this. IT’S ILLOGICAL. How is it fair to punish a class by, firstly, nerfing their ability to land an attack. And secondly, by making it easier to avoid the attack if it even activates properly.

This is why I’m upset: it’s less probable that our attacks will even land anymore; our damage was nerfed when we don’t even come close to the damage of other classes in terms of weapon skills; even if our attacks can even be “summoned,” they can easily be killed before the damage or even the effect of that phantasm can trigger. We have the most difficult time getting our attacks to land, and now those easily avoidable attacks / utilities are weakened once again.

And btw, phantasms never had a delay in their attacks. I read a recent article about layoffs at NCSOFT. Also I have noticed that the guild wars team is always advertising for additional programmers. My bet would be that they lost the members who were originally responsible for designing the mesmer and their skills. We get nerfed each patch, with the addition of an “unexpected” nerf that is not even listed in the patch notes. Which is unprofessional and quite frankly, bull crap.

ANet tried something new with the Mesmer concept and it was too much for them. They don’t know what to do with the class mechanics (phantasms/illusions and shatter) and I think they would rather just turn Mesmer into a traditional casting class.

ANet took a bold step in a new direction and found out that the ground was rocky and that they had forgotten to wear their shoes – time to turn around and head back to safer ground (nerf everything and figure it out later).

PS I love having you guys in my fractals due to some of the fantastic utilites they bring. Please keep the faith and know that the community understands that you work 300% harder for 80% as much.

Xynn.2748:

ANet tried something new with the Mesmer concept and it was too much for them. They don’t know what to do with the class mechanics (phantasms/illusions and shatter) and I think they would rather just turn Mesmer into a traditional casting class.

ANet took a bold step in a new direction and found out that the ground was rocky and that they had forgotten to wear their shoes – time to turn around and head back to safer ground (nerf everything and figure it out later).

PS I love having you guys in my fractals due to some of the fantastic utilites they bring. Please keep the faith and know that the community understands that you work 300% harder for 80% as much.

WOW, that means a lot coming from another profession.

Phantasm being destroyed before first attack is annoying,but the real problem is,that they cant ever hit a moving target.GS one was really nice for catching enemies,but now its useless if your target is on the move "90% of enemies are moving ".If there is some need for nerfing,than try DMG not delay pls.

Robin Hood.8123:

You guys are really optimistic, believing a-net will fix the mesmer back to the state of before 15th of Nov. For those believers, good luck. If there is a problem with putting the delay under 0.25sec, then why does the mariner skills still works properly without delay?

They had time enough to fix the ibezerker bug but it´s still unsolved, leaving the class with the Dez 3th patch more broken than it ever was. The answers given by JP only shows up how unaware of the mesmer a-net must be when he asks us in a statement, how big the damage output of ibezerker was before the patch in Nov? No documentation made?

The argument that the delay shall give opponents the chance to react is ridiculous, cause the damage of the ibezerker was never so high to be a problem with. On the other hand, when ibezerker is so powerful, then why 100blades or heartseeker has no delay implemented? It makes much more damage and works instantly. Is the fact that LoS or being blinded not enough to avoid the damage, now my phantasm must first knocks on the door, here i am? Dodge now! Mesmers must be really a pain in the a** for a-net dealing the class this way.

Oh yeah, but i´m a great supporter and shattercat. First LoS, then decreasing dmg of ibezerker and now delay of phantasms, whats next? But i have my ultimate solution of that problem found. I´m out.

Yeah, good luck. The Necromancer minions have been broken since launch. I’m finding the delay a little annoying on my Mesmer, but at least it attacks the target unlike the Necromancer Flesh Golem who just stands there like a cheerleader.

They should just rename Mesmers with Shatterer cuz that’s all you can do to be half useful.

Nuka Cola.8520:

They should just rename Mesmers with Shatterer cuz that’s all you can do to be half useful.

Your post always makes me laugh, thanks for being such a good troll.

JonPeters.5630:

Fyi, the delay on first attack has been present since BWE2. It is there for balance reasons to give enemies a moment to react to the powerful summon.

There’s no way this is the case with all phantasms. When I use Illusionary Leap now (which is NOT a powerful summon) half the time the clone dies or leaps to an empty space where the enemy used to be (because the enemy ran somewhere else). The Phantasmal Warden’s use of stuffing projectiles is near impossible now because he just sits there for way too long before starting that first attack, though it is humorous to note that now he actually RUNS TO THE ENEMY before doing the attack, if the enemy moved.

Remember we need to have an enemy targeted to even summon a phantasm, which means that we can’t put one down somewhere in advance or strategize in a way that would be able to counter the delay. The clones and phantasms are so weak that they get one-shotted in pretty much any dungeon. That in itself is really enough of a balance— even without the delay you have to time when you summon them to hope to get a hit off. Now though you have to pray the enemy somehow stands still AND hits a totally different target. It’s really frustrating and kills the use of ALL clones/phantasms, especially the berserker.

Have you tried the new way phantasms work? I feel like there’s some misunderstanding going on here, where you don’t realize the delay is either much longer than it’s supposed to be, or affecting all phantasms.

It’s hard enough to play as a mesmer as-is in PvE… nerfing us for no reason really doesn’t look like it’s “balanced” at all. Go “balance” a guardian, since they definitely have a lot more advantages than mesmers in that department.

I read:
“The delay on first attack has been present since BWE2. It is there for balance reasons to give enemies a moment to react to the powerful summon.”

ok I’m fine with that, nerfed the power of berserker, but you can not give even the delay! (and if you want to keep the delay, return to increase the damage), when a thief attack me from behind, I do not have time to move, when the warrior with 20 stack of might shoot me from a distance, i can ‘t dodge it. (and I can still do many citations)
Why programmers continue to listen only to the complaints of the people who has never tried a Mesmer, and complains about everything?
Is one of the least played class across all servers… I don’t think I need to add another.

For me the game is beautiful, but you are slowly inviting people, to change class.

you know, I agree that the mesmer needs some loving right now, but the class is far from broken and unplayable. I have been playing it non stop since day 1, and I am having plenty of success.

while these problems need to be addressed, the fact is there are a number of ways to play the mesmer, they don’t always rely on phantasms as their primary assault

again, I am NOT saying it is fine as is. just saying it isn’ unplayable.

that being said, it has been announced that was there attempted fix will roll through in 1 week. so why don’t we calm down and see what happens before continuing this rage storm?

Wise.8025:

Elementalist Meteor Shower
Damage: 481
Storm radius: 3kittenage radius: 90
Range: 1,200

Mesmer iZerker
Crippled: 2 s
Damage: 259
Range: 1,200

We’re comparing these two because a channeled skill compares well to a summoned one, right? Like, completely the same thing.

I mean I get it, you’re angry. And yes, our Phantasms could use a buff now that they’ve been nerfed three times. But, don’t start doing absolutely rubbish comparisons like these, they just make you appear hate-driven and grasping for straws.
Meteor Shower has plenty problems the Elementalists would like remedied. Problems which don’t concern us, since we don’t have a skill like theirs, and neither do they have a skill like Berserker.

For those few out there that fire up the Warden, you have to remember it is a stationary summon. It will not move or engage targets out of it’s AOE range. Moobs if moved have to be kited or pulled – using the secondary ability of the wall from the focus. It will as many say stand there and whirl around. Just as it is supposed to do. Stand on him and all projectiles are reflected to the attacker. Drop chaos storm or null field and his attacks change to a larger AOE to either strip conditions from players in range or boons from enemies. So remember drop a warden – stand on him, he doesn’t move.

Ok I know I am very late on this but this is incredibly frustrating. A delay on phantasms is how they are supposed to work. Seriously? To give people the ability to totally avoid damage. How does this make any sense at all. Meanwhile I just love being spam dazed or stunned by perma invisible thieves who kill you in under two seconds. But oh yes I remember now. That is their mechanic. Just like phantasms are the Mesmer mechanic yet they are repeatedly getting nerfed. I mean repeatedly. Like, every update.

Id say a having a pause before Phantasms attack is a bigger detriment to balancing than what you might think.

I tested something and have a question. I summoned (^^) three phantasms and shattered them on a dummy. The tool tip from mindwrack says they should hit for 3x 1026, but instead it does 3x 731.
Noob question: Does it work correctly (e.g. dummies have armor which decreases the damage from 1026 to 731), is the tool tip not describing properly or is it a bug?
Thanks a lot. It is the first time I had a closer look by pommeling the dummies. ^^

Possibly already mentioned, possibly not.

The Illusionary Warden is a stationary Phantasm; it doesn’t pursue its target. Therefore, it is no longer effective against any sort of moving target. When I use the skill on a walking mob (e.g. a Grawl), there’s usually (i.e. >50% occurrence) enough time for the target to walk away from the iWarden. Therefore, the iWarden starts attacking empty space. Alternatively, if I use the skill on a group of target (e.g. two wolves), the iWarden is summoned, stands there, and then usually dies before making an attack.

I don’t feel that adding a 0.5-1sec (Yes, it seems to be that long in-game) is justified for the iWarden, if not for all the other Phantasms as well.

Also, it seems as if the Illusionary Duelist always spawns within melee range of its target, regardless of my own location. I don’t recall this always being the case. It kind of defeats the purpose of a ranged Phantasm.

I’d really like to see the issue of “two chances to dodge” resolved; PvE mobs don’t require whole seconds, even halves of a second, to react.

I feel like Mesmer-players are being funnelled towards Condition and Shatter builds, which makes the gameplay revolve around cookie-cutter fighting styles. I’ve been trying to create alternate builds that don’t rely on Shattering or Condition/Boon support, but I still don’t feel like they’re as effective because Phantasms, a core mechanic, aren’t very reliable.

Maybe give each phantasm 0.25 seconds of aegis, so they can’t be one-shotted while still making them avoidable if the dev team seriously feels them too powerful.

While I’ve been arguing against the idea that mesmers are now broken, I do have problems with the idea with powers having multiple steps in stopping it cold.

EsLafiel.4517:

Nuka Cola.8520:

They should just rename Mesmers with Shatterer cuz that’s all you can do to be half useful.

Your post always makes me laugh, thanks for being such a good troll.

I only wish Nuka was troll posting. It’s funny because it’s true.

Navi.7142:

I tested something and have a question. I summoned (^^) three phantasms and shattered them on a dummy. The tool tip from mindwrack says they should hit for 3x 1026, but instead it does 3x 731.
Noob question: Does it work correctly (e.g. dummies have armor which decreases the damage from 1026 to 731), is the tool tip not describing properly or is it a bug?
Thanks a lot. It is the first time I had a closer look by pommeling the dummies. ^^

The combat log is very badly made.It doesnt show mitigation or not even condition dmg,but you can try testing in mist on golems where you can find 3 kinds of them.Have to use PvP armors thou :-(

Navi.7142:

I tested something and have a question. I summoned (^^) three phantasms and shattered them on a dummy. The tool tip from mindwrack says they should hit for 3x 1026, but instead it does 3x 731.
Noob question: Does it work correctly (e.g. dummies have armor which decreases the damage from 1026 to 731), is the tool tip not describing properly or is it a bug?
Thanks a lot. It is the first time I had a closer look by pommeling the dummies. ^^

The tool-tips are unfortunately extremely inaccurate. Some of them are scaled for traits and stats, some are not. Based on actual damage versus tool-tip, it’s pretty obvious that the basic constants and formula used in the tool-tip bear little to no relation to what happens in play.

The CDs and cast times in the tips are pretty accurate; well, except for double-traiting on CD reductions. The tips only show at most one reduction. Damage from the tip, however, might as well not even be there.

For a really good laugh, take a look at the torch Mage damage description and then watch it’s damage in game. The tip is a good 3~4x higher than actual, which is roughly 8~10x lower than other phantasms. It’s as if they balanced the tool-tips and forgot to update the real damage.

I haven’t bug reported the tool tips simply because I assumed they were aware of the situation.

Thanks for your posts.. I am still not sure why there is a difference, but at least it’s not just me noticing it..^^

Trying to balance for pvp and wvw imo is the problem here it creates a constant nerf cycle and instability to pve characters.

It’s not rocket science to realise that actual players react differently to the AI. GW1 managed to seperate the two by having some skills work differently in pvp. But it seems like GW2 is copying the old formula of a twin pve/pvp balancing act where in trying to make pvp "good"pve becomes the less favoured, less loved twin. Where have I been here before…. /Yawn.

I would like to have more splitted skills.
And they already have some in gw2. Cannot understand why they do not extend it to a point that mesmers can have fun and stay competitive in pve whilst they balance little things for pvp.

JonPeters.5630:

Fyi, the delay on first attack has been present since BWE2. It is there for balance reasons to give enemies a moment to react to the powerful summon.

Can we get more responses like this to QQ about balance?

This is just perfect. If I had the money I’d pay your salary for ONE day to just sit back and go to each ‘skill x’ thread and give this exact kind of response.

Of course…I don’t have the money